AI still unable to develop young players

I remember in last years game, as England manager, come 2016 or further into the game I was left with a skeleton selection of players to choose from - senior players had retired or become useless, and the young players that you'd expect to have ready for the step up just hadn't developed the quality.

Has anyone seen any different in this years game? Just had a browse through some of the Premier League and noticed that there are still countless players not getting games and not developing even to a fraction of how human interaction could.

Here's some examples;

Agreed, the AI seems to have to desire or ability to rotate its first team squad, and seems to be oblivious to the morale problems and stagnation this causes.

Just bought ward-prowse for man Utd in my second season. Looking forward to seeing him devolop.

Good report well carried out, hope SI respond and begin addressing it for future. That said, have you logged it in the appropriate bugs forum?

Good report well carried out, hope SI respond and begin addressing it for future. That said, have you logged it in the appropriate bugs forum?

Im pretty sure this happened in fm12 too so can't see it changing anytime soon.

Im pretty sure this happened in fm12 too so can't see it changing anytime soon.

Yep I agree it did, but posts like this coupled with logging in the bugs forum are the best way to attempt to initiate that change. Of course I realise that doesn't guarantee results

I think another contributing factor is not getting games on loan. I've noticed this for my own players as well, they added the great addition of a loan indicating whether they will be a key or first team player etc, but I've had several players who were sent on loan as first team and hardly got a game.

It's true but it is a reflection of real life (not to say it can't be improved). IRL most managers take a very short term view, or they get sacked. It is earier to take a long term view on FM as both a) it isn't your livelihood and b) young players develop too reliably in FM so it is never really a waste to try developing them.

It would be good if the AI could loan out players who aren't getting a shot though - that would help a lot.

Yep I agree it did, but posts like this coupled with logging in the bugs forum are the best way to attempt to initiate that change. Of course I realise that doesn't guarantee results

Very, very true. Keep bringing it up and hopefully they will sort it. I realise it might not be an easy fix but it is an important issue.

Luke Shaw and nick Powell are in and around the England team without me signing them

I agree with the fact AI doenst develop talent. I have the same problem with my Cagliari game.

All young Italian players not getting any first team experience, not even getting loaned out.

So if the AI fails to develop talent then we should all technically be able to steam roll the AI in the year 2020 in our saves right ??

I do see big teams getting youngsters and even paying high prices for 16-18 year olds.

I am not enough seasons in to see if they waste this money or do something with these players.

In my save, Powell is still at United, stuck in the reserves doing nothing and pissed - I am in 2016.

the reason is that PA is not important for IA. IA judge a player on is CA. In general young players are always underestimated. CA (and of course his mental, technical, physical abilities) must be higher on young (promising) players. Editor needed

Here are some examples from my game:

These players will probably never reach their full potential because of the AI not letting them play.

I remember in last years game, as England manager, come 2016 or further into the game I was left with a skeleton selection of players to choose from - senior players had retired or become useless, and the young players that you'd expect to have ready for the step up just hadn't developed the quality.

Has anyone seen any different in this years game? Just had a browse through some of the Premier League and noticed that there are still countless players not getting games and not developing even to a fraction of how human interaction could.

Here's some examples;

What's massively dissapointing about this is that Southampton have an invest in youth board clause, so they should be playing these players. Especially as in the above example they went down into the championship and there aren't likely to be as high rated players in front of them compared to Man Utd/Chelsea.

It's silly to have these club philosophies if the clubs aren't following them.

I agree 100% with OP, I was going to make a thread about this myself.

This is a huge reason why I loose interest in long term saves after around 3-4 seasons. On my save you have Raheem Sterling, Suso, Chabolalah, Ross Barkley basically ALL the top young talent in England all the players you mentioned all average championship players at best. I have started loosing interest in the game as a result. I wouldn't mind but I actually tried to sign Sterling & Shaw countless times, but got rebuffed despite them a) not playing and b) not going out on loan. I offered £7m for Shaw who was just a reserve team player, he is now 21 in my save and awful to boot.

The only players that seem to come through are the regens that are awesome from the start at average teams, then the bigger teams buy them. Utd just paid £37m for some regen dmc recently from Roma, he had started out at Newells where he played games (hence developed) then progreesed to Roma then finally Utd (always 1st team).

I am yet to really see any "real" players develop with the AI, unless they are at smaller clubs, and I don't mean teams like Southampton, I mean teams like Anderlect or Standard for example where teams can play these youngsters. Obviously no player is guranteed to reach their potential, but some of them would but instead these teams prefer to spend £7m each on 3 lb's for example when they have players like Shaw waiting to play; it is so stupid.

This would be the biggest improvment SI could make hands down, but I don't think it will as it has been the same for years and years.

I am yet to really see any "real" players develop with the AI, unless they are at smaller clubs, and I don't mean teams like Southampton, I mean teams like Anderlect or Standard for example where teams can play these youngsters. Obviously no player is guranteed to reach their potential, but some of them would but instead these teams prefer to spend £7m each on 3 lb's for example when they have players like Shaw waiting to play; it is so stupid.

This would be the biggest improvment SI could make hands down, but I don't think it will as it has been the same for years and years.

Shaw made his real life Premiership debut last week against Swansea. JWP has already 7 appearances this year. Shaw is only 17 and JWP has only just turned 18, he more than held his own against Man Utd and Man City.

Maybe SI needs to make these players have a better starting CA so that they are more useable to the AI as in IRL Shaw and JWP are both part of the first team squad at Southampton, however in game they are sitting in the U18s.

The issue about full strength teams being played in Carling Cup and lower elvel FA cup games is also probably not helping. That's potentially 5 or so first team starts these players are missing out on each season.

Shaw made his real life Premiership debut last week against Swansea. JWP has already 7 appearances this year. Shaw is only 17 and JWP has only just turned 18, he more than held his own against Man Utd and Man City.

Maybe SI needs to make these players have a better starting CA so that they are more useable to the AI as in IRL Shaw and JWP are both part of the first team squad at Southampton, however in game they are sitting in the U18s.

The issue about full strength teams being played in Carling Cup and lower elvel FA cup games is also probably not helping. That's potentially 5 or so first team starts these players are missing out on each season.

That's not the point. AI don't develop talent as well as they should and SI should fix it

That's not the point. AI don't develop talent as well as they should and SI should fix it

Part of the reason though is game time, they don;t give their players any game time because they don't rotate enough and pick their players on CA, they buy their players on CA. There needs to be a trigger in the AI management that picks up on PA when thinking about who to play.

So if you up the CA of these young players a bit they might get played more, and if the AI rotates more especially for lower cup games the young players will get more game time.

Part of the reason though is game time, they don;t give their players any game time because they don't rotate enough and pick their players on CA, they buy their players on CA. There needs to be a trigger in the AI management that picks up on PA when thinking about who to play.

So if you up the CA of these young players a bit they might get played more, and if the AI rotates more especially for lower cup games the young players will get more game time.

This is the reason why they never develop, for example if I bought or managed Southampton I know for a fact (barring injuries) that Shaw and Ward-Prowse would be England Internationals as I would play them, Shaw in particular. But it's the same for loads of the players in the top leagues but no so much the lesser leagues unless they are snapped up in game too early. I can understand maybe someone like Nick Powell going by the way side as he plays for Utd the comeptition is much more fierce.

I wouldn't necessarly agree that they should have higher CA it's just they should be given the chance to play or go out on loan. Too many players just play reserve or u18's football when in reality they wouldn't do that for seaons upon end. There shouldn't be any guarantees but there should be a fair chance given to suceed at "smaller clubs" in particular. Also teams shouldn't buy players for back up on certain positions if you have "wonderkids" waiting in the wings, surely this should be considered. Agree with the PA comment though should be taken into consideration, but balance would be key, you'd end up with teams full of kids if not done properly.

Another thing that bugs me is when some players do go out on loan they are not playing 1st team either, like Powell for example went on loan to Stoke where he made 3 apperances all season, this is a waste, why not go to Championship and play the same happened with Sterling to Newcastle. More suitable temas should loan the players meaning they will play, as isn't that the whole point of sending them out on loan?

This is extremely worrying. One of the reasons FM falls down for me is long term games becoming too easy. Looks like this was not fixed.

It's true. Although I have no idea how easy it would be, the AI needs to be capable of the same thought process as us;

Along the lines of 'This guy will be great in future so seeing as I am 3-0 up at half time Ill give him a run-out'.

Perhaps limited to games in which his team is favourites, but not exclusively

This is the reason why they never develop, for example if I bought or managed Southampton I know for a fact (barring injuries) that Shaw and Ward-Prowse would be England Internationals as I would play them, Shaw in particular. But it's the same for loads of the players in the top leagues but no so much the lesser leagues unless they are snapped up in game too early. I can understand maybe someone like Nick Powell going by the way side as he plays for Utd the comeptition is much more fierce.

I wouldn't necessarly agree that they should have higher CA it's just they should be given the chance to play or go out on loan. Too many players just play reserve or u18's football when in reality they wouldn't do that for seaons upon end. There shouldn't be any guarantees but there should be a fair chance given to suceed at "smaller clubs" in particular. Also teams shouldn't buy players for back up on certain positions if you have "wonderkids" waiting in the wings, surely this should be considered. Agree with the PA comment though should be taken into consideration, but balance would be key, you'd end up with teams full of kids if not done properly.

Another thing that bugs me is when some players do go out on loan they are not playing 1st team either, like Powell for example went on loan to Stoke where he made 3 apperances all season, this is a waste, why not go to Championship and play the same happened with Sterling to Newcastle. More suitable temas should loan the players meaning they will play, as isn't that the whole point of sending them out on loan?

First off don't write off Ward-Prowse! He has the same potential as Shaw

I agree CA might not be right maybe reputation needs upping? CA is definitely what teams seem to pick players on though if player A has a higher CA than player B in the same position with similar fitness the AI will always play A regardless of form or potential or even attributes.

As the OP pointed as well smaller clubs are fine because a lot of newgens start with a decent CA, or will quickly get a CA that puts them close to the first team so they get game time. Trouble comes the higher the clubs because the young player might only have 100 CA and the average first teamer has 140 CA, it can take years for the youngster to get to that CA without games so hence the player will sit in the reserves or U18s.

Young players also need to get unhappy more about not playing football. Ok a 17 year old might not make too much fuss about not playing any games for a season at Man Utd, but after two 3 seasons of no games they should be agitating for a move or more games.

My point of view is that SI is developing tools for both user AND AI.

They made TC for the user (and limit the exploits) and for the AI, less combinations than sliders, less faults and more sensed tactics.

Now this new training system seems to me like something the AI can play with too, and since this is the first version I can't blaim some major faults (if there are).

Isn't the problem more done to squad selection and rotation rather than training? In addition to talents going unused I've seen alot of big money signings not used at all, made both before the start of the game and in the game. City and Utd keep buying players that they don't use and sell 2-3 season later completely ruined.

The AI doesn't develop the player well and you as a Manager can scout any player in 1 sec. You really need to do something SEGA or certainly the interest of gamers like me wane.

maybe in 2014 AI will develop players

cu then

Has any one checked to see how player development progresses with players playing in 'B' teams?

According to a players history, B team appearances count as full appearances and are recorded as such (unlike reserve and youth appearances). So there's a possibility B team games have more influence on a players development.

I've been thinking of scraping the default reserve structure in England and replacing it with a secondary league made up of 'B' teams. That way reserve and young players will be playing in a competitive league whilst still being available for their first team. Competitive football is the kind that helps them develop, isn't it?

Has this been reported as a bug? I guess it isn't per se but its a game breaker for long term games.

And has been for a few years I might add.

First off don't write off Ward-Prowse! He has the same potential as Shaw

-9

I agree CA might not be right maybe reputation needs upping? CA is definitely what teams seem to pick players on though if player A has a higher CA than player B in the same position with similar fitness the AI will always play A regardless of form or potential or even attributes.

As the OP pointed as well smaller clubs are fine because a lot of newgens start with a decent CA, or will quickly get a CA that puts them close to the first team so they get game time. Trouble comes the higher the clubs because the young player might only have 100 CA and the average first teamer has 140 CA, it can take years for the youngster to get to that CA without games so hence the player will sit in the reserves or U18s.

Young players also need to get unhappy more about not playing football. Ok a 17 year old might not make too much fuss about not playing any games for a season at Man Utd, but after two 3 seasons of no games they should be agitating for a move or more games.

Agree with everything you said, with exception to Ward-Prowse Shaw is the better talent for me.

Form should carry a bigger importance in AI team selection too. I bet it must be extremly difficult to implement all of this though as I would imagine they would of by now if it was that simple.

I don't think training carries too much weight in this to be honest, it's is limited exclusively to palying time.

It is a football manager classic top team splashing out £15-20m on a player for him not to play and be shipped on to me for peanuts, secret to my success

On a serious note though it shouldn't happen like that too much.

Agree with everything you said, with exception to Ward-Prowse Shaw is the better talent for me.

Form should carry a bigger importance in AI team selection too. I bet it must be extremly difficult to implement all of this though as I would imagine they would of by now if it was that simple.

I don't think training carries too much weight in this to be honest, it's is limited exclusively to palying time.

It is a football manager classic top team splashing out £15-20m on a player for him not to play and be shipped on to me for peanuts, secret to my success

On a serious note though it shouldn't happen like that too much.

They are both awesome on my save

Thing like this and your last point though effect long term saves because the AI acts like complete idiots.

Two things that SI could do to help, one divide cup competitions into stages and give each stage its own Reputation. League cup Second round reputation 6 LC Final reputation 11 etc. I think its reputation that governs team selection maybe its "competition level"

The idea is to make big teams play squad players in early rounds but field a stronger teams as they advance.

The second would be to add a bit of code that recognises when a team has won a league or qualified from a European group stage and make that team treat any remaining games as much less important. You could do the same thing for any two legged tie where either team has a five goal or more advantage.

Yeah it's not an easy thing to replicate - not every great prospect in-game should become a great player. Look IRL, players like Bywater, Routledge, Bostock - players move for decent amounts and become cast-offs. Even this season you have Rodwell and Wickham not getting games.

But saying that, if the AI are signing young players for vast amounts then not playing them or loaning them out examples in the bugs forum would be good. Don't assume just because this has happened in previous versions and is happening this version it's for the same reasons and it hasn't been looked at - there are so many variables to take into account for this and these areas have both had a lot of work put in. Thanks.

Yeah I agree there shouldn't be any gurantee's, but if you believe hype then there should be a dozen Messi's plying their trades in Europe soon. Haven't you heard Man Utd have several Roy Keane's and Eric Cantona's coming through soon too!!

The list is endless for all these "wonderkids" flopping/not really playing. Difference is though, the players you mentioned and in general didn't/don't stay at their real life clubs for too long whilst not playing, and to be honest most don't; in FM they do (albeit it would be unfair to say always).

Overall the game is brilliant, but I think it's safe to say if you could change one aspect it would be the AI.... easier said than done; applies for all game developers.

The list is endless for all these "wonderkids" flopping/not really playing. Difference is though, the players you mentioned and in general didn't/don't stay at their real life clubs for too long whilst not playing, and to be honest most don't; in FM they do (albeit it would be unfair to say always).

I can mention Giovani dos Santos, but he's still at a certain level...here's a nice example instead.

Search for Alemao, you should find a striker from Santos that was sold to Udinese, went to Vicenza and now is in Varese.

He was one of the most "hyped" player at the time. What's the weird in this story? When the Youth Team of Santos came to play an important tournament (not far from where I live ) do you know who was the star of that team and who had all the attention of the scouts? This Alemao. And do you know who was warming the bench for him? A certain unknown Paulo Henrique Ganso.

I can mention Giovani dos Santos, but he's still at a certain level...here's a nice example instead.

Search for Alemao, you should find a striker from Santos that was sold to Udinese, went to Vicenza and now is in Varese.

He was one of the most "hyped" player at the time. What's the weird in this story? When the Youth Team of Santos came to play an important tournament (not far from where I live ) do you know who was the star of that team and who had all the attention of the scouts? This Alemao. And do you know who was warming the bench for him? A certain unknown Paulo Henrique Ganso.

There is nothing like the Brazilian kids being over hyped there is a new pele emerging all the time apparently.

I ain't saying all players should achieve etc but in general most don't in game.

Giovanni dos Santos wasn't sat around for too long he was loaned out most times. But I never understood what went wrong with him as he is a quality player.

Maybe having some kind of semi fixed ca could help all with the pa and form giving a boost to how the ai views the players for selection, with some kind of multiplyer in force. Could potentially make the game more dynamic for transfers etc e.g. a good player having a barnstorming season will be viewed by the ai of having a higher ca than he actually has due to his form. A okay with huge potential would be viewed as having a higher ca than he actually does.

Semi fixed can doesn't sound too bad an idea. Sorry if spelling bad on my phone with auto correct

This is disappointing if as stark as the OP's post suggests.

tommonufc, did you notice any young players from Southampton, Everton, Chelsea, United getting game in place of the ones you mentioned? Players who may be less feted in the real world doing well on FM for example?

If it's just that the likes of Powell and co aren't progressing while others are then fair enough - that could well happen in the real world. We just expect, based on hype and PA, that certain players should always reach dizzying heights.

But I never understood what went wrong with him as he is a quality player.

Nice sentence. You can't understand or elaborate something on a real life person. An example of real soccer, but still we have a logic ourself on how a fictional world (FM) should work I some years ago I saw Man City buying Pantilimon I would say: "that's unrealistic!" But that's it in real life.

The regens/generated players is one of the biggest problem in a manager player of any sport, I still have to find one that can convince a common user. I think it will never happen. Seeing players move to Russia or China would be a unrealistic for me time ago, or seeing some nations with too many or too few strong selectable players in the national squad list. There's also to take care of different leagues structure: England has B Team, Spain has something similar, Italy has youth team...different ways to handle/sign players--->different IA approach.

Yeah it's not an easy thing to replicate - not every great prospect in-game should become a great player. Look IRL, players like Bywater, Routledge, Bostock - players move for decent amounts and become cast-offs. Even this season you have Rodwell and Wickham not getting games.

The thing is, a high PA player in the hands of a human almost inevitably will reach his potential. In the hands of the AI, they very rarely do unless they have high (for the club they're at) CA and are thus good enough to be a first choice player. For the last few games, all the top young real players and regens the AI clubs have are ones they've picked up almost fully developed from smaller teams. The ones that start at good clubs tend not to develop well.

Ideally, there needs to be more balance between what a player can do and what the AI does - make it harder for us to develop youth, but easier for the AI.

The thing is, a high PA player in the hands of a human almost inevitably will reach his potential. In the hands of the AI, they very rarely do unless they have high (for the club they're at) CA and are thus good enough to be a first choice player. For the last few games, all the top young real players and regens the AI clubs have are ones they've picked up almost fully developed from smaller teams. The ones that start at good clubs tend not to develop well.

Ideally, there needs to be more balance between what a player can do and what the AI does - make it harder for us to develop youth, but easier for the AI.

Last year I boosted Danny Welbeck and Tom Cleverley's rep slightly in the editor and they were actually picked for the first time as rotation players - pretty close to their use in real life in fact. Welbeck and Cleverley went on to become solid players under AI Ferguson and Ancelotti who took over after Fergie's retirement.

Perhaps young talents simply just need a more generous helping of rep so that their managers notice them?

If this is true you're telling me 2 copy of the same player, with only a different value which is reputation, will see a player always benched and one always playing? I don't find it logic, this means that reputation is a "quality" value.

If this is true you're telling me 2 copy of the same player, with only a different value which is reputation, will see a player always benched and one always playing? I don't find it logic, this means that reputation is a "quality" value.

I didn't try copying the player and boosting the reputation of one of them as a test but it'd be interesting to see the results of such an experiment.

With a boosted rep, Welbeck wasn't placed up for loan and he and Cleverley got a fairly decent return of games off the bench.

I'm not saying it's logical, it's just something I stumbled upon last year.

I'm not saying it's logical, it's just something I stumbled upon last year.

No well of course, but to me something is not ok because I read "reputation" as "importance", a factor that can be use in FM for "giving awards, setting price values for AI and stuff like that". I've never preferred (as a manager) a player instead of another because of reputation. Still now I'm thinking why when I set some players on loan, some are "not willing to go on loan". And that's always for over 23yrs old. Does it have to do with reputation perhaps?

No well of course, but to me something is not ok because I read "reputation" as "importance", a factor that can be use in FM for "giving awards, setting price values for AI and stuff like that". I've never preferred (as a manager) a player instead of another because of reputation. Still now I'm thinking why when I set some players on loan, some are "not willing to go on loan". And that's always for over 23yrs old. Does it have to do with reputation perhaps?

I think the AI uses reputation as a marker of quality to some extent though in the same way players react better to managers with a higher rep.

In the game it's your standing, so AI managers may well think better of higher rep players of lower quality than low rep players with good CA/PA.

Funny you should say that, just about to sign Christian Tello on a free, who is now 24 and doesn't look like the player he should have become.

This is disappointing if as stark as the OP's post suggests.

tommonufc, did you notice any young players from Southampton, Everton, Chelsea, United getting game in place of the ones you mentioned? Players who may be less feted in the real world doing well on FM for example?

If it's just that the likes of Powell and co aren't progressing while others are then fair enough - that could well happen in the real world. We just expect, based on hype and PA, that certain players should always reach dizzying heights.

Short answer, no. Long answer...

Arsenal

- Jack Wilshere - 12(2), 29(6), 32(1)

- Carl Jenkinson - 5, 12(2)*, 1 *Season loan @ Everton

- Kieran Gibbs - 0(2), 0, 0

- Segre Gnabry - 0, 0, 3(9)* *Season loan @C.Palace

- Francis Coquelin - 17(2)*, 11(7), 13(7) *Season loan @Bordeaux

- Alex Ox.. - 2(5), 2(8), 4(12)

- Wilfred Zaha - Brought from Celtic for £10.25M January 2015, yet to play a league game as of Feb. 2016. Previously played regularly for Celtic.

- Thomas Ince - Signed from Blackpool for £2.3M July 2014, as of Feb. 2016 played 4 league games 14/15 only, played 4 European games so far 15/16

Manchester City

- Karim Rekik - 0, 0, 1(2)

- Nastasic - 0(1), 2(1), 0(1)

- Jack Rodwell - 0(4), 4(2), 4(3)

Nastasic or Rekik hardly featured at all. City brought Martin Kelly who plays center back reguarly July 2014. Tottenham signed Kelly from Liverpool who shined enough for City to ***** up their ears and buy him for £14M. Nastasic and Rekik both have higher PA than Kelly does, but due to neither being afforded a chance in the first team, nor receiving decent development they've stagnated and are far inferior to Martin Kelly.

Manchester United

- Tom Cleverley - 2(2), 2(14), 5(15)

- Nick Powell - 5(3)*, 3, 0(1)

Chelsea

- Nathanial Chalobah - 1(6)*, 47(1)**, 42(2)** *=1st season loan @Watford, **= 2nd season loan @Watford, ***=3rd season loan @Blackpool

running out of steam here, but you can do the research in your save yourselfs, young players, unless already proven, don't develop anywhere near to the level that they can do under human control.

.... no. AI throughout various sides decides to loan players out where human managers would regonise they haven't the personality to succeed (low determination) where they fail to achieve despite even playing plenty of games. Mental side of players never develop due to AI unable to tutor players, therefore cannot develop and AI fails to give them games becuase their CA isn't high enough.

Yeah it's not an easy thing to replicate - not every great prospect in-game should become a great player. Look IRL, players like Bywater, Routledge, Bostock - players move for decent amounts and become cast-offs. Even this season you have Rodwell and Wickham not getting games.

But saying that, if the AI are signing young players for vast amounts then not playing them or loaning them out examples in the bugs forum would be good. Don't assume just because this has happened in previous versions and is happening this version it's for the same reasons and it hasn't been looked at - there are so many variables to take into account for this and these areas have both had a lot of work put in. Thanks.

It's understandable that human managers can exert a far, far greater control of development to finer detail than the AI can - but I see that the disparity across the board is far too bigger gap.

Tutoring plays a vital role in player development, but what ability does an AI have to tutor young players? By the looks of it, no ability. It's very clear, that on some level, a player like Nick Powell moving to Manchester United would learn from players such as Paul Scholes or Ryan Giggs - under direct tutelage, or picking up things through training. Nick Powell, moving from Crewe to Manchester United, would surely be in a better place to grow as a player in order to reach his potential - through the standard of coaching and management he's receiving, the facilities he's training with and the players he's playing and training with. I see only two cases of those three are applicable for the AI in the game.

I don't see this is the case with the AI. Without knowing the intricities of how the AI understands the qualities of individual players, it would appear from my viewing that the AI doesn't regonise the PA of players, and only views them on their CA; coupled with the fact that they cannot implement development strategies such as tutoring, players CA such as Nick Powell will, in most cases, not reach their PA anywhere near like they would under human management.

Another example would be - in game, Nathanial Chalobah can be developed into a top defender. The first move for any human manager would be to improve his personality, so that he can intern gain a personality more favorable to becoming a player of high standard - most clear move would be to get John Terry to tutor Chalobah. This would in some degree be the case in real life too - if and when Chalobah is training or playing with Chelsea's first team, as a center back, he would surely be learning from John Terry; and depending on the potential the Chelsea coaching staff see in Chalobah would dictate the level of how closely he would work with Terry to improve him game.

With the AI this isn't the case I'm sure, neither is it the case that the AI can regonise Chalobah's PA - only considering his CA. Therefore it will have no understanding of the importance to tap into that PA through the use of something akin to tutoring. So it stands to reason, if Chalobah doesn't already have the right personality that will allow him to apply himself to a strong degree in training, his CA won't improve enough for the AI to regonise his abilities and play him in games. Therefore there will be a perpetual circle of wasted development and stagnant PA - due to the AI having such an inferior undertstanding and model of player development than what the human manager has.

Therefore you can extent this theory and say that within a period of time, say 10 seasons, a team such as Man City will buy highly rated regens, not play them, they will be released, or transfer list them. A human manager can then procure these talents far cheaper than, in this example Man City have done, and use them in a way that Man City should have done in the first instance. This process can be rinsed and repeated to no end, and the level of superiority that a human manager can exert over the AI will soon become very, very big.

Short answer, no. Long answer...

**Apperances = League only (full seasons of 2012/13, 13/14, 14/15)**

Arsenal

- Jack Wilshere - 12(2), 29(6), 32(1)

- Carl Jenkinson - 5, 12(2)*, 1 *Season loan @ Everton

- Kieran Gibbs - 0(2), 0, 0

- Segre Gnabry - 0, 0, 3(9)* *Season loan @C.Palace

- Francis Coquelin - 17(2)*, 11(7), 13(7) *Season loan @Bordeaux

- Alex Ox.. - 2(5), 2(8), 4(12)

- Wilfred Zaha - Brought from Celtic for £10.25M January 2015, yet to play a league game as of Feb. 2016. Previously played regularly for Celtic.

- Thomas Ince - Signed from Blackpool for £2.3M July 2014, as of Feb. 2016 played 4 league games 14/15 only, played 4 European games so far 15/16

Manchester City

- Karim Rekik - 0, 0, 1(2)

- Nastasic - 0(1), 2(1), 0(1)

- Jack Rodwell - 0(4), 4(2), 4(3)

Nastasic or Rekik hardly featured at all. City brought Martin Kelly who plays center back reguarly July 2014. Tottenham signed Kelly from Liverpool who shined enough for City to ***** up their ears and buy him for £14M. Nastasic and Rekik both have higher PA than Kelly does, but due to neither being afforded a chance in the first team, nor receiving decent development they've stagnated and are far inferior to Martin Kelly.

Manchester United

- Tom Cleverley - 2(2), 2(14), 5(15)

- Nick Powell - 5(3)*, 3, 0(1)

Chelsea

- Nathanial Chalobah - 1(6)*, 47(1)**, 42(2)** *=1st season loan @Watford, **= 2nd season loan @Watford, ***=3rd season loan @Blackpool

running out of steam here, but you can do the research in your save yourselfs, young players, unless already proven, don't develop anywhere near to the level that they can do under human control.

.... no. AI throughout various sides decides to loan players out where human managers would regonise they haven't the personality to succeed (low determination) where they fail to achieve despite even playing plenty of games. Mental side of players never develop due to AI unable to tutor players, therefore cannot develop and AI fails to give them games becuase their CA isn't high enough.

I'm going to do a quick sim over three seasons too and then again with each player's rep boosted up slightly and see what effect that has.

It is worrying seeing players signed for fairly big money and then not being played though...

Upping the reputation for those kinds of players makes sense, but I'm going to try to see whether the system they have in place works to model the careers of regens as well. My original hypothesis was that the system was optimized for regen's reputations - young regens' reputations would be higher on average than those of the -9 PA kids in the database, and they'd be given more opportunities to develop. I have a game I holidayed up until 2025, with a few of the major leagues open. I went in FMRTE to search for "flameouts" - older players with remarkable PAs and average CAs - to try to find out what their stories were.

Jurgen Pohl (31 years old, CA 141, PA 191) - History

After a couple early loans where a promising Pohl to be fair hardly set the world on fire, Bayern chose to sit this potentially brilliant player in their reserves for literally eight years. Six first team appearances, three goals. For a player with a career as long as his, Jurgen's bill of health is extremely clean. With a 12 for professionalism and a 14 for ambition, Pohl was buckling down, but Bayern management never gave him the slightest chance.

Fagner (26 years old, CA 130, PA 186) - History

Fagner's development seems to make more logical sense than Pohl's. Chelsea loaned him out a few times and even gave him a brief run in their first team. He broke his leg twice - once upon his arrival to Stamford Bridge, and once in 2022, and he broke his foot in 2023. The "very ambitious" Fagner had a very rough time with injuries, and I believe it's fair to attribute much of his failure to develop to those injuries. He was at least able to get a big money contract out of the time spent on the trainers' table, so good for him.

Joshua Turner (28 years old, CA 125, PA 179) - History

Another one with no injury or personality problems, the Scottish "JT" was left in Tottenham's reserves for a very long time, rarely given a chance to prove himself, and not sent out on loan even once.

Isaac Bassilekin (28 years old, CA 114, PA 179) - History

A weird one. Stayed in Cameroon his whole career. Never discovered. There's a Costa Rican just like him.

Jim Waddecar (28 years old, CA 108, PA 176) - History

Perennial Man City reservist Waddecar was, after a year in Turkey, finally let go at the age of 23 without having played a game for the senior side.

Obviously it's difficult to decide what this means because in real life, there's no measure that's as accurate a gauge of what a player "should have been" as PA is in FM. I could have done more of these, but once you try to make one sound interesting you've kind of done them all, and there seemed to be a lot more like Pohl and Waddecar than there were like Fagner. The one thing that can be determined is that FM still does not accurately represent the behavior of big clubs. It's difficult, and the task of having an "elite development squad" or whatever Manchester City call it actually is a managerial nightmare, so it makes some sense. I don't know if it's because the game doesn't generate the right kind of demand market for these kinds of players on loan, or if it's still all reputation, or even an issue with their contract logic ("ambitious" people should want out if they don't get games) but Manchester City do not have any 23-year-old players in their reserves who came up with them and they've never played.

I understand that in, for example, not getting the most out of Pohl, the AI is probably trying to model the certain level of randomness and ineptitude that really does exist. Andy Carroll was purchased for 35 million pounds, so I'm willing to forgive the transfer stuff, but the squad management just looks off sometimes with these kinds of examples. The game is modelling stuff that simply does not happen. At any point during the reserve team slumbers of Pohl, Turner and Waddecar, I'd imagine the player could have swooped up them (or the players in the OP) for a tiny fee and made stars out of them.