AI still unable to develop young players

[DJ Sir Matthew]

Started a test with your latest files, no crash Also holidayed for 1 month to see if the B-games were doubled in my game (team Arsenal) and they aren't! Maybe you accidently started a game with 2x the English Academy editor data? (as you had several different versions of those maybe you forgot to untick the older ones and hence the games were duplicated?)

[Big Yellow]

arsenal are terrible in my save!!!

they are now a mid table team. there most expensive players also have terrible stats. no players over $20mill.

[Erimus1876]

arsenal are terrible in my save!!!

they are now a mid table team. there most expensive players also have terrible stats. no players over $20mill.

I wouldn't worry too much about individual teams as anything could cause a decline like that. Its the league as a whole that needs to be looked at. What are the new generation of young international players like and are they better developed than players in a normal long term game saved at the same time, that kind of stuff.

That reminds me, we're going to need a normal 20-25 season save to compare this against, so if anyone has the time to run one off please do so.

[Erimus1876]

Started a test with your latest files, no crash Also holidayed for 1 month to see if the B-games were doubled in my game (team Arsenal) and they aren't! Maybe you accidently started a game with 2x the English Academy editor data? (as you had several different versions of those maybe you forgot to untick the older ones and hence the games were duplicated?)

No I only have one file of each in my editors folder. Check a few different players from different clubs as it only effects some players and not others.

[DNicholls]

Ok, im back from work and my game has got to 2036 (dissapointing as I was expecting 2050 - but I guess with the increase in regens, the database gets bigger).

What screenshots/info would you like? What are the best things to check.

[Erimus1876]

Wow, 2036 is more than enough All the teams will be made up newgens in that game now so have a look through the traditional big teams, like Man U, Barcelona, Milan etc. Also check out some of the smaller clubs that have academy teams. How have they done in the game? Are they struggling or have they done better than expected? Teams like Crewe, Norwich, Derby etc, I think they have academy teams. Also what are the national teams like? Are the nations that have academy leagues top of the FIFA rankings?

The best thing to do would be to upload some screenshots and also the saved game so people can download it and take an in-depth look at how things have developed. Hopefully we'll be able to compare it against a normal long-term save.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

I've not bothered confirming but I do have an inkling that the Manager of the U18's misuses those with greater potential and thus kills off your youth before they even begin. For example, he plays players by current ability and not their potential, so crap player A will always start ahead of potential wonderkid B stifling B's progress but capping out A's. That's assuming that SI haven't bothered changing how teams are selected outside of reputation, in which case, you'd be better off managing your own u18's?

[DNicholls]

OK, for some reason, the forums are not letting me upload images, so I've done them through another site.

Enjoy.

And if you want any more, let me know.

World Rankings:

Premier League:

Current England Captain history:

La Liga:

Derby County history (flirting with Prem)

As a side note, it would appear the most valuable players in the game have all come through 'academies'.

[Erimus1876]

As a side note, it would appear the most valuable players in the game have all come through 'academies'.

That's encouraging news. I wonder if that means more players having been exposed to competitive games early in their careers are reaching their Potential Ability than normally would?

Would be worth uploading your save so we can look at individual squads.

[DNicholls]

One thing I have found is that the clubs (Italian clubs for example) do not utilise the B teams for youngsters. They are kept in the U20s squad. The B team is used as a sales shop. Most people in the B teams in Italy are loaned out.

However, in England, where it goes from U18s to B Team to Senior, it seems to be used a bit more correctly with youngsters who are to old or to good for U18s being placed in the B team (and sometimes subsequently loaned out), meaning that the U18s is normally filled with very young players that are new(ish) to the club.

It also appears that clubs more frequently loan older players that are placed in the B team.

Some Spanish clubs (Barca for example) have an issue where they rather send players to the official 'Barcelona 'B' Team' than to the one created. Meaning there are no players at all, except for older players loaned out, in the created B team.

[DNicholls]

Would be worth uploading your save so we can look at individual squads.

Where is the best place to upload the game?

[Da_Funk]

One thing I have found is that the clubs (Italian clubs for example) do not utilise the B teams for youngsters. They are kept in the U20s squad. The B team is used as a sales shop. Most people in the B teams in Italy are loaned out.

It's correct. Italian teams don't have a B team, so in FM there's not a league or a schedule for B teams and players there don't get playing time as in real life.

[Erimus1876]

Where is the best place to upload the game?

mediafire.com is the one I use.

[Erimus1876]

One thing I have found is that the clubs (Italian clubs for example) do not utilise the B teams for youngsters. They are kept in the U20s squad. The B team is used as a sales shop. Most people in the B teams in Italy are loaned out.

However, in England, where it goes from U18s to B Team to Senior, it seems to be used a bit more correctly with youngsters who are to old or to good for U18s being placed in the B team (and sometimes subsequently loaned out), meaning that the U18s is normally filled with very young players that are new(ish) to the club.

It also appears that clubs more frequently loan older players that are placed in the B team.

Some Spanish clubs (Barca for example) have an issue where they rather send players to the official 'Barcelona 'B' Team' than to the one created. Meaning there are no players at all, except for older players loaned out, in the created B team.

Yes I noticed this too. I'm not sure how to overcome how different nations utilise their academy clubs.

[DJ Sir Matthew]

So I left the laptop running only to come home and find out that my wife decided to close the lid since he made so much noise... So I can't provide you with anything yet. Gonna restart again although I have to say I find the processing really slow even with my Asus G73JW (i7 Q740 and Geforce GTX460M and SSD)...

[DNicholls]

The game can be downloaded here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?w8226dd5jqadrt2

[Erimus1876]

Incidently I'll have version 3.0 ready tomorrow.

This will be the final structure as it adds a few more dynamics into the mix. I've added a 2-tier system to some academy leagues. There will be promotion and relegation from the school of excellence academy league, and each tier will have a different reputation so it gives smaller clubs who manage to get to the top league a better chance of generating higher quality players when the newgens enter the game (the slightly higher competition rep should help with that).

Basically if you manage a club that has an academy team, its well worth putting time and effort in to making sure they stay in the top school of excellence.

Here's how it'll look...

Two teams from the School of Excellence will be relegated and replaced by the two feeder-league champions.

The School of Excellence will have a higher competition reputation than the lower league.

This is what the rules will be for all academy leagues...

Loan & Trialists can be picked for academy games so you can get a look at them in competitive matches.

[Erimus1876]

So I left the laptop running only to come home and find out that my wife decided to close the lid since he made so much noise... So I can't provide you with anything yet. Gonna restart again although I have to say I find the processing really slow even with my Asus G73JW (i7 Q740 and Geforce GTX460M and SSD)...

LOL, no problem mate

[Erimus1876]

The game can be downloaded here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?w8226dd5jqadrt2

Thanks.

Hopefully a few people will download it and take a look. The more opinions the better imho.

I'll have good look at it tonight

[DNicholls]

Incidently I'll have version 3.0 ready tomorrow.

When V3 is released, I'll start a proper game, and will try and utilise the Academy properly.

[Erimus1876]

When V3 is released, I'll start a proper game, and will try and utilise the Academy properly.

I think I will too.

Even if there isn't much difference in player quality and this experiment doesn't show any significant improvement, I've decided I prefer this academy system to the boring reserve leagues anyway so I'll probably start my career game in the next few days.

The only thing that bothers me is the B-team appearances bug. But I noticed if I set every academy team back to Reserve Team, the bug doesn't happen.

So the question is. Will being a reserve team playing competitive matches in a competitive league effect development any differently? That would need to be tested before deciding which way to go with this.

Before I release the final version I'd like to get a consensus off people what they'd prefer.

[Big Yellow]

well just checked my game and its only 2026.

game must have slowed real down!!!

man city have only "lost" the league twice. they have won every other year LOL

will leave it till i get back from work, then upload the save!

cant wait for v3 to start a proper game!

i think it might be better to leave out the academy from the Spanish league, or rather change the U19 league structure into a competitive one.

As the Legunda B is already there and a "seperate" competitive league, it may cause problems.

Maybe set the Spain U19 Academy league reputation as the same as the Legunda B rep. That way any reject senior players from first teams can just be moved to their B team, and your youngsters can play in the U19 Academy league.

[Big Yellow]

I have also noticed that a lot of the highest valued English players (sorry i love Arsenal/Prem League ) have spent some time in the Academy leagues. West Brom in my save have become a top league/european side often challenging for the title LOL

This experiment is definately worth doing and certainly adds something different to your game.

[Erimus1876]

V3.0 is now finished.

With these files I've set all the academy teams to Reserve status since the appearances bug doesn't occur that way.

The reserve teams are playing in competitive leagues as opposed to default reserve leagues and as far as I can tell FM is recording player appearances as competitive matches (which is the important thing).

If players continue to develop better than normal with v3.0 files I'll leave them as they are and we can start our career games. If they don't improve, then I'll change all the teams back to B-team status and re-release the files as V3.1 (we'll just have to put up with the appearances bug if that's the case).

These reputations are the variables that may need to be adjusted over time to find the right balance. We can also adjust the maximum amount of matches academy players can appear in each season if too many / too little games effects their development.

Spanish School of Excellence: 60

*Spanish Academy League: 50

Spanish Academy Clubs: 4000 - 2600

English School of Excellence: 59

*English Academy League: 49

English Academy Clubs: 4000 - 2500

German School of Excellence: 58

*German Academy League: 48

German Academy Clubs: 4000 - 2500

Italian School of Excellence: 56

*Italian Academy League: 46

Italian Academy Clubs: 4000 - 2400

French School of Excellence: 52

*French Academy League: 42

French Academy Clubs: 3800 - 2300

Portuguese Academy League: 48

Portuguese Academy Clubs: 3700 - 2300

Brazilian Academy League: 50

Brazilian Academy Clubs: 3900 - 2300

Argentine Academy League: 47

Argentine Academy Clubs: 3900 - 2300

Russian Academy League: 47

Russian Academy Clubs: 3600 - 2200

Dutch Academy League: 46

Dutch Academy Clubs: 3700 - 2300

Turkish Academy League: 45

Turkish Academy Clubs: 3500 - 2100

Belgian Academy League: 42

Belgian Academy Clubs: 3400 - 2100

Greek Academy League: 42

Belgian Academy Clubs: 3300 - 2000

Scottish Academy League: 39

Scottish Academy Clubs: 3300 - 2000

*If you want to load the Academy League One for Spain, England, Germany, Italy, and France, you will need to select as playable/viewable at least the top 2 leagues for those countries when setting up your game.

Download from here:

http://footballvideogames.weebly.com/database-downloads-for-fm13.html

[Big Yellow]

can't wait to test it!!

anyone know how i can do that virtual access thing to load up a new fm game from work?? LOL

[Big Yellow]

my game as of 2033. game save is over 200mb and cant upload it to mediafire unless someone else knows another site that can handle a file that size.

Looks like England have fallen quite a bit in World Rankings!

[abhid30007]

I think AI should give training facilities a equal chance to develop along with first team experience. Because in low reputation clubs you will give youngsters first team experience but they dont have excellent training facilities. While top clubs cant give that much first team experience to youth but do have top training youth faicilities and coaches and top players also who can teach them their tricks

[Macshimmy]

I think the issue for SI taking something like this on is realism. The current reserve set up in England aren't B teams, and the matches they play aren't really competetive, so as good a solution as this is to the AI squad development issue, it's well into the realms of fantasy.

The real focus for the SI team ought to be finding a way to make AI managers blood youngsters more successfully more regularly.

Agreed - theres the rub, surely.

In reality the situation in England and Scotland in recent years has very much been a story of young talents getting poached by bigger clubs too soon,

and then never playing to the level they looked like they were capable of because of the lack of game time and increased competition at their new club.

There might be an exaggeration of this effect in FM 2013, but you can't argue its not true to life to some extent.

[DNicholls]

Now the question is: what team do I start my new game as?

[Erimus1876]

Now the question is: what team do I start my new game as?

Don't forget the academy teams in v3.0 currently have reserve status set, not B-team status. So we don't know how that will effect development even though they're still playing in competitive academy leagues. It hasn't been tested like the other versions have.

I've submitted a bug report about the b-team appearances issue so until I hear anything back I'd be wary of getting too involved with an in-depth career game.

[tajj 7]

Don't forget the academy teams in v3.0 currently have reserve status set, not B-team status. So we don't know how that will effect development even though they're still playing in competitive academy leagues. It hasn't been tested like the other versions have.

I've submitted a bug report about the b-team appearances issue so until I hear anything back I'd be wary of getting too involved with an in-depth career game.

I think if the games are still counted as competitive it will still be an improvement over the current reserve team set up which is essentially what background friendlies? It'll count similarly to what the player playing for a league 2 level team?

[Erimus1876]

I think if the games are still counted as competitive it will still be an improvement over the current reserve team set up which is essentially what background friendlies? It'll count similarly to what the player playing for a league 2 level team?

That's what I'm hoping will happen

[crpcarrot]

hmm some people actually expect real players to develop as they are expected to? if the game could replicate that SI wouldn't still be making games !

as long as good players are coming through the rans regens or otherwise i don't see the problem.

[Erimus1876]

Here's some screenshots from DNicholls test save.

These are some of the current dominant teams in their respective leagues in the year 2037. Each of these clubs have an academy team.

What I've noticed is some of the highest valued players haven't come through Academy teams. It looks like they went straight into the 1st team from a very early age.

Those players must have been high CA/PA newgens and the AI has recognised them as such immediately and started playing them at an early age.

However, some of the next tier players, the ones hovering around the £10m region, most of them seem to have come through the academy system at some point.

I'm not sure what this suggests (if anything). Maybe because they're getting competitive games and not stagnating in the reserves at a young age, more players than usual are developing to their fullest PA? There's a lot of £10m(ish) valued players around.

The best National side in 2037 is Italy (a country with an academy system).

About 80% of the players here played academy matches as youngsters.

We really need a normal 25 season save (no academy leagues) to compare these against to see if any significant change has occurred. Or if anyone can remember how their old FM12 long term saves looked like compared to this, their input would be much appreciated.

[tajj 7]

Are those their first team appearances? Would be good to look at academy appearances and then their subsequent CA in relation to PA.

Basically you need to see how many players at say 26 are say within 10pts of their PA, and then compare the same players in the normal set up game.

If the academy system is developing more middle range players this should be good because it means squads will be stronger and mid level teams will have a bigger pool of decent players to choose from.

[DNicholls]

Ill do another 25 season tester as it only takes my computer a day (roughly) to get to 2030. Ill

Do it either over tonight or on Saturday when I'm out playing footy.

I won't have the time to compare the two as I'm away with work next week. But I'll upload it and post it here so that you can compare the two. Sound good?

[Erimus1876]

Are those their first team appearances? Would be good to look at academy appearances and then their subsequent CA in relation to PA.

Basically you need to see how many players at say 26 are say within 10pts of their PA, and then compare the same players in the normal set up game.

If the academy system is developing more middle range players this should be good because it means squads will be stronger and mid level teams will have a bigger pool of decent players to choose from.

Yes, those are their 1st team appearances in the current season. Their career academy appearances are in the multi-hundreds because of the b-team appearances bug. In reality they can only play 21 academy games a season, yet its throwing back stats 2 or 3 times that. I still don't know if those false appearances are just a display issue, or whether FM is recording them as actual games played. If its the latter then we're screwed with testing until its fixed since any results will be massively skewed by the amount of games FM thinks those players played.

I'm hoping the academy system is doing as you suggest, developing average players to their fullest PA as that would at least be an improvement on the current system.

Watford have a cracking Academy system on this by the way. Arsenal keep poaching their players and are dominating the EPL

[Erimus1876]

Ill do another 25 season tester as it only takes my computer a day (roughly) to get to 2030. Ill

Do it either over tonight or on Saturday when I'm out playing footy.

I won't have the time to compare the two as I'm away with work next week. But I'll upload it and post it here so that you can compare the two. Sound good?

Will you be running a normal test (i.e. the default SI database with no academies), or will you be using the V3.0 files to see if reserve status makes a difference to b-team status results? Either will be good

[Erimus1876]

This is Watford's Academy team for season 2037.

Don't take any notice of the academy appearances, they're bugged. These players have played roughly 50% of the games its says they have.

[Erimus1876]

Here's the Juventus Academy team...

In the normal game, countries like Italy don't have reserves do they? So I can see the benefit for adding something like this to those countries - even if its just for the sake of giving them the chance to play their fringe players in meaningful games.

[DNicholls]

Will you be running a normal test (i.e. the default SI database with no academies), or will you be using the V3.0 files to see if reserve status makes a difference to b-team status results? Either will be good

I will be doing a standard SI database run.

[Erimus1876]

Ok, thanks :thup:

[Big Yellow]

Erimus/DNicholls, have you guys noticed a "reserve" manager bug?

I stared a game with V2 barca (to test out the new ME) and V3.0 arsenal game and in both saves i have some guy from Genk as my reserve team manager even though he is not contracted to my teams.

When i set the reserve team manager as my assistant manager in staff responsibilities it doesnt fix it. I also tried to "retire" him using FMRTE and it doesnt work either!!

Can either of you see if this happens in yours?

[Erimus1876]

That's a big problem by the looks of it. Since its happened to both a v2.0 B-Team, and a v3.0 Reserve team it could be an issue with the 'adding secondary teams' panel in the editor. Which kills this stone dead until its fixed.

I've already submitted a bug report about the B-Team issue but haven't heard anything back yet. I'll add this issue to the bug report too.

[Erimus1876]

Actually you're probably better off submitting it as a bug report here;

http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/311-Editor

Since SI will mostly likely ask you to upload the saved game.

[Big Yellow]

Actually you're probably better off submitting it as a bug report here;

http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/311-Editor

Since SI will mostly likely ask you to upload the saved game.

yeah i will start a fresh default game and see if its normal. if its all good, it must have something to do with adding leagues and i will submit it as a bug.

[DNicholls]

Ah crap. That's annoying. I won't be doing my next 25 year tester till this is sorted I guess. As if its non-fixable, then not much point in playing? Big shame. I think the potential for this to work is there.

For now it's back to original database game then.

PS if anyone fancies a casual online game, drop me a PM.

[Erimus1876]

I think it would have been raised if its happening in default games to be honest. I haven't heard anything about it so I think it must be unique to the whole adding new team feature in the editor, or possibly something to do with secondary leagues (which I know are bugged in other areas too at the moment).

Until the editor bugs are sorted I think its pointless starting a game with these files - unless of course they don't spoil your enjoyment of the game.

[Erimus1876]

Ah crap. That's annoying. I won't be doing my next 25 year tester till this is sorted I guess. As if its non-fixable, then not much point in playing? Big shame. I think the potential for this to work is there.

For now it's back to original database game then.

PS if anyone fancies a casual online game, drop me a PM.

Yeah, I agree. I think the theory behind this experiment is sound. Its just a pity other issues are making it hard to thoroughly test it.

We should all meet back in this thread after patch 13.3 in March and try again :lol:

[Big Yellow]

HAHAAH lol.

well since i couldnt get rid of him, I used FMRTE and made him a world class legend. Best of all, he's not on my payroll LOL.

i'll probably start a new default game most likely. the new ME has buggered all my tactics from my old save.