Is football manager the game getting more complicated than real life?

Just wondering if all the tactical sliders etc, for me it makes it very complicated for tactics. In all fairness the guys in the tactics section have produced an amazing 50 page explanation of tactics. Its been helpfulll but really should the game be that complicated. I've seen the point made a few times that the game is getting harder for us people who have full time jobs and other commitments.

I agree with the oppositon instructions because thats what a real manager would do but he wouldn't have the option of saying ' can you lower your tempo down by 5% and you increase your mentality by 15% and you try increse your creative freedom by 5%' Some things makes sense, like forward runs, long shots etc.

Anyway just thinking out load, not complaing because I love the game but still it feel s like its getting too complicated. What happened to the old 4-4-2, give it you best lads and make sure there star mid dosen't get too much of the ball!

I dont think it is.

no but they may give a player more or less freedom. and the way its currently portrayed in game is in notches. i don't believe the notches are in 5% sections though are they?

No there not there on sliders, 20 places, so each one equals 5%

It will never be more complicated than real life. There is more interaction or enhancements every year, though. I would moan if there wasn't.

no way jose

TBF none, little or lot of creative freedom would be better, 5 notches at a push, but 20 is far too muc.

Do you think real life managers have the luxury of understanding their players abilities in terms of attributes and values like we can

I'd say real life far more complicated

Real life is infinitely complicated.

With real life coaching you get to say what you mean and actually see your players do (or not do) what you've told them.

FM is statistics based, and ultimately it is much more difficult to read into how your sliders are actually impacting on a game, just by looking at it. The feedback is completely different. In that aspect, FM is infinitely more complicated that real life.

And I totally agree about sliders... 20 positions to set Creative Freedom... what the?

I don't mind about it being true to real life wit the tactics, jus have to think how finely you can tune the tactics, it's really complicated. Especially to the new users $I are trying to bring in.

I think the other point worth mentioning is that you are forever trying to translate what you think and see in real life into the game.

Take for example Chelsea...

I want the central defenders to push up when we're in possession, but I don't want them to stay there when we don't have possession. I want the full-backs to overlap with the wingers and cross mainly from the byline, but also from deep or play through balls to my wingers. I want one central midfielder to track the attacking midfielder on the opposition, but to push forward on the attack. I want my wingers to cut inside often, but cross from the byline when there is space. I want through balls to my striker when he has space, if not I want play diverted to the wings to free him up. I want one attacking midfielder to act as a second striker when I push forward, but drop back centrally when out of possession. I want my other central midfielder to act as an option outside of the area on attacks, and do his fair share defensively. And I want my team to counter-attack, but not in the traditional FM way (I want them to break forward in numbers given the opportunity, but I don't want them to try to make that opportunity arise). And I want the passing to be short between the midfielders but direct through balls to my wingers and strikers. Ultimately after many years of play I still can't get a team to play like Chelsea, and I still find myself guessing at settings.

I think the other point worth mentioning is that you are forever trying to translate what you think and see in real life into the game.

Take for example Chelsea...

I want the central defenders to push up when we're in possession, but I don't want them to stay there when we don't have possession. I want the full-backs to overlap with the wingers and cross mainly from the byline, but also from deep or play through balls to my wingers. I want one central midfielder to track the attacking midfielder on the opposition, but to push forward on the attack. I want my wingers to cut inside often, but cross from the byline when there is space. I want through balls to my striker when he has space, if not I want play diverted to the wings to free him up. I want one attacking midfielder to act as a second striker when I push forward, but drop back centrally when out of possession. I want my other central midfielder to act as an option outside of the area on attacks, and do his fair share defensively. And I want my team to counter-attack, but not in the traditional FM way (I want them to break forward in numbers given the opportunity, but I don't want them to try to make that opportunity arise). And I want the passing to be short between the midfielders but direct through balls to my wingers and strikers. Ultimately after many years of play I still can't get a team to play like Chelsea, and I still find myself guessing at settings.

I agree with you completely, some people seem to have grasped how to make teams play exactly the way they want to but most of us are happy when were winning even if its not the way we would like to play. When i made the original post i wasn't trying to say Fm 2009 is more difficult than real life, my point is its become more complicated to get your players to even do the simplist of things.

Yeah I completely agree and have started two threads before about the tactics. They are very inhuman in my opinion.

I cannot name one single player or manager who can teach his team to play with 20 different notches of creativity, mentality, etcetera. I think managers make their players play in a certain way by talking about certain situations and mistakes that happen during the game, telling them what went right and what went wrong, and of course during training itself, not by telling their players they have to play with a mentality of the 15th notch, so to speak.

I agree totally, the balance is all wrong between realism and playing the game for fun!

Obviously it's not as complicated as in real life, otherwise we'd all be jacking in our day jobs.

IMO FM has become a bit too technical for some and has lost the "just one more match before I go to bed" factor. Personally, I'm not complaining about the game as I like the challenge and love the 09 games detail but I can accept the point being made in the OP as the difference in one click either way on a slider can make a big tactical impact.

i actually think in terms of on-field management that yes it is harder than real life. Off field obviously not because personalities play are impossible to replicate but on the field I would vote YES.

Don't be so ridiculous. It's not even worth questioning.

In real life there's a chance that if you tell your team to go attacking they might just go ahead and actually do it.

Complicated? Life? Where shall I start?

The game needs looking at in terms of tactically simplicity. There is another thread where the OP makes simple suggestions based on the formations screen. The creative freedom, mentality, etc could be visually represented and adjusted on this screen. Well worth a look.

FM is harder than real-life. Real life has the benefit of being able to tell your players what to do, berate them if they don't and generally be more refined.

FM is just shift sliders about in the vain hope that eventually a player might do what they're asked, assuming they've remembered to code it in.

I can't think of many real-life situations in which a long-ball over the top works 50% of the time, without ever being able to do anything about it.

Here is the thread I started on tactics a while ago, didn't get much response though.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=58551

My impression is that there is so, so, so much detail given to tactics... but the off-the-field actions of the manager are still only mildly developed. Tactics are infinitely complex and even the smallest alterations can change a team's performance for good or bad, while on the other hand, off-field relationships, comments, relationships, et cetera, do not have that much of an influence on outcomes. 20 ticks on a dozen or more sliders might be a bit much to tweak and tweak to the point you might not really even understand what effect you're having. But off-the-field, you can basically do nothing, ignore controversy, nurture no relationships, always say the "no comment" and that doesn't have much affect, good or bad, on a team or relationships with players.

So is FM more complicated than real life? Tactics-wise yes, otherwise no.

My opinion.

Yeah you can hardly communicate with your players in FM.

Communication is one of the most important aspects of a manager. Look at Harry Redknapp. Tottenham were ****, he comes over, hardly changes anything tactics-wise, but suddenly the team has a lot of confidence and play with character and they have improved greatly.

It's just boring. In the olden days I would rush home and use every excuse to get on the computer. Now I play perhaps one hour a day at the weekends and then stop. There are too many fiddly bits and nowhere near enough excitement.

Just wondering if all the tactical sliders etc, for me it makes it very complicated for tactics. In all fairness the guys in the tactics section have produced an amazing 50 page explanation of tactics. Its been helpfulll but really should the game be that complicated. I've seen the point made a few times that the game is getting harder for us people who have full time jobs and other commitments.

I agree with the oppositon instructions because thats what a real manager would do but he wouldn't have the option of saying ' can you lower your tempo down by 5% YOU ARE ASKING THEM TO SLOW DOWN and you increase your mentality by 15% AND THINK MORE and you try increse your creative freedom by 5% AND ALLOWING THEM TO EXPREES THEMSELVES' Some things makes sense, like forward runs, long shots etc.

Anyway just thinking out loUd, not complaing because I love the game but still it feel like its getting too complicated. What happened to the old 4-4-2, give it you best lads and make sure there star mid dosen't get too much of the ball!

How many years experience do you have in "real" football management?

Exactly so now you know why Wenger and Fergie are millionaires

i manage u 7's sunday league football and it is not this complicated.

I'm waiting for FM2025 where each in game player/staff has AI and you can converse directly with them like a real manager would, perhaps via some magical telepathy device.

That's actually not impossible. Big Information Technology companies in the Silicon Valley claim that the next generation of PC's will be able to converse in a natural, human, intelligent way. Meaning that they will actually understand language, because all that computers at the moment can understand is code and commands.

I personally feel some people are looking at this game way too deeply.. fortunately for myself , I've been able to build teams in previous FM games and play the way I've wanted to and I've enjoyed that... now until I've read this topic, i wasn't looking at tactics from 5% creative freedom and ect, and i don't think other gamers should look to play the game in that perspective .. they should try and think creatively and logically and enjoy it.

To be honest, yes it is, of course it is.

Real life managers don't have these stupid sliders and infinite combination of settings that you have to get balanced in order to succeed. I can't think of a better example than Harry Redknapp, when bringing Pavlyachenko on, his translator asked for instructions, to which he replied, "just f'ing run around!".

Brian Clough, the genius, said it was a case of "pick a formation, pick your best players in each position, and let them play".

FM has gone way, way too far.

It's still a game and far from the reality. Dealing with humans is way more complicated and you need much more experience than you need to play a computer simulation. Most of the people would fail just after a month when managing a bunch of people just for a simple project.

Brian Clough, the genius, said it was a case of "pick a formation, pick your best players in each position, and let them play".

FM has gone way, way too far.

i wonder what would guys like mourinho and capello answer to him. it's just the metter of manager's style...some like to keep it simple and others get more in-depth. it's same in FM...

The main problem is that where football managers earn their money tactically is with simple changes that can't be replicated in FM - spotting an inexperienced fullback and encouraging you to play diagonal balls behind him, exploiting their central defender's tendency to get dragged out of position by encouraging your main striker to make lateral runs across the pitch etc.

No chance.

I want the central defenders to push up when we're in possession, but I don't want them to stay there when we don't have possession.

High defensive line but ultra defensive mentality.

I want the full-backs to overlap with the wingers and cross mainly from the byline, but also from deep or play through balls to my wingers.

FR= often, through balls= often, crossing=often. Mainly from the byline? "Cross from byline" (they will still cross from deep).

I want one central midfielder to track the attacking midfielder on the opposition, but to push forward on the attack.

FR= often, mentality= normal or defensive, marking= man->specific (choose the AM) and marking=tight.

I want my wingers to cut inside often, but cross from the byline when there is space.

Crossing often and crossing set to byline. Also RWB often. When the "Cuts Inside" PPM is working, you'll be able to teach them to do that too.

I want through balls to my striker when he has space, if not I want play diverted to the wings to free him up.

Midfielders= through balls often, passing= mixed. They'll pass to the striker if he has space, and get it wide when he doesn't.

I want one attacking midfielder to act as a second striker when I push forward, but drop back centrally when out of possession.

FR= often, mentality= normal.

I want my other central midfielder to act as an option outside of the area on attacks, and do his fair share defensively.

See above, just more defensive in mentality.

And I want my team to counter-attack, but not in the traditional FM way (I want them to break forward in numbers given the opportunity, but I don't want them to try to make that opportunity arise).

A relatively attacking mentality for most players should simulate this. Note that normal can be up to three clicks to the right IIRC.

And I want the passing to be short between the midfielders but direct through balls to my wingers and strikers.

CMs= shortish passing, through balls often.

Ultimately after many years of play I still can't get a team to play like Chelsea, and I still find myself guessing at settings.

No offence and I don't want to sound like I'm boasting, but it didn't take me long to get Chelsea playing like Mourinho's side, admittedly on 07.

Just wondering if all the tactical sliders etc, for me it makes it very complicated for tactics. In all fairness the guys in the tactics section have produced an amazing 50 page explanation of tactics. Its been helpfulll but really should the game be that complicated.

It's not.

What happened to the old 4-4-2, give it you best lads and make sure there star mid dosen't get too much of the ball!

Um, it was crap?

i wonder what would guys like mourinho and capello answer to him. it's just the metter of manager's style...some like to keep it simple and others get more in-depth. it's same in FM...

except you can't keep it simple and succeed.

Real life managers don't have these stupid sliders and infinite combination of settings that you have to get balanced in order to succeed. I can't think of a better example than Harry Redknapp, when bringing Pavlyachenko on, his translator asked for instructions, to which he replied, "just f'ing run around!".

^^ Big-up ^^

I did a thread once called "Would top real-life managers be able to make head nor tail of FM?" and I still think they'd be baffled.

It would be a lot easier for me if there were an "off the ball" command section similar to the ones for corners and free kicks. I want to create passing lanes/clog passing lanes, which is doable, but right now takes a lot of tweaking. If I could have some command like "occupy this area," I feel I could set my players up better.

Don't be daft. It's a computer program and is governed by a set of rules and variables. Life has unlimited possibilities. Which is going to be more complicated?

I want the central defenders to push up when we're in possession' date=' but I don't want them to stay there when we don't have possession.

High defensive line but ultra defensive mentality.[/quote']

But if you don't adjust the mentality of your midfield, there'll be a gap. and then you'll have to adjust your strikers mentalities. And then you're not gonna be attacking too much with all these low mentalities...

I want the full-backs to overlap with the wingers and cross mainly from the byline, but also from deep or play through balls to my wingers.

FR= often, through balls= often, crossing=often. Mainly from the byline? "Cross from byline" (they will still cross from deep).

This only works if you give your wingers high creative freedom or free roles, leaving then space for the fullback to attack. If your winger is on the flank is very hard to make the fullback really "overlap". He can join the attack, but for him to overlap, his instructions have to be linked to the instructions of the winger. If the fullback have the "gets foward whenever is possible" PPM, then is a little bit easier.

I want one central midfielder to track the attacking midfielder on the opposition, but to push forward on the attack.

FR= often, mentality= normal or defensive, marking= man->specific (choose the AM) and marking=tight.

If the opposing AMC has free role, most of the time the CM will be out of position and will take more time to join the attack. If your CM has low workrate, the result of this instructions may not be pleasing.

I want my wingers to cut inside often, but cross from the byline when there is space.

Crossing often and crossing set to byline. Also RWB often. When the "Cuts Inside" PPM is working, you'll be able to teach them to do that too.

You can do it, but it won't work. i'd try cross on mixed, rwb often, high creative freedom and free role. This is the only way i managed to see my wingers reaaly cutting inside. But it is really hard to give your players a "plan b".

I want through balls to my striker when he has space, if not I want play diverted to the wings to free him up.

Midfielders= through balls often, passing= mixed. They'll pass to the striker if he has space, and get it wide when he doesn't.

It's not that easy. First you'll have to sort your strikers instructions for them to find space. Then you'll have to sort out the wingers mentalities and the CM mentality. If youu don't do it, the CM might pass to the defenders or other players in the pitch. Again, a "plan b" is really hard to control. There's no "if this is not possible, do this instead" in the tactics screen.

I want one attacking midfielder to act as a second striker when I push forward, but drop back centrally when out of possession.

FR= often, mentality= normal.

A free role may be needed, but he won't defend a lot. The mentality will have to be adjusted to the mentality of your other players.

I want my other central midfielder to act as an option outside of the area on attacks, and do his fair share defensively.

See above, just more defensive in mentality.

If his mentality is too defensive he may pass to the defender when he gets the ball outside of the area. And again, his mentality has to be linked with the mentality of your other players or there'll be a gap.

And I want my team to counter-attack, but not in the traditional FM way (I want them to break forward in numbers given the opportunity, but I don't want them to try to make that opportunity arise).

A relatively attacking mentality for most players should simulate this. Note that normal can be up to three clicks to the right IIRC.

Tradional FM way? You mean you don't want your team to drop back and wait to get the ball and counter? Maybe a high d-line, heavy closing down and a faster tempo will work better then ticking the counter-attacking option.

And I want the passing to be short between the midfielders but direct through balls to my wingers and strikers.

CMs= shortish passing, through balls often.

You'll need to adjust the mentality of your CMs so they can pass the ball to each other untill the striker breaks free. The striker has to find some space, if not you won't see through balls. The CMs will need some creative freedom too.

And even if you do all that, probably it won't work, because your players may not be able to do what your asking them to do.

I'm not even close to a good manager in FM. Just recently i decided to stop downloading tactics. I've been watching games in full, reading the TT&F thread and trying to learn how FM really works, but i have to agree that the way the tactics is presented is not the best possible solution. Transforming the notches in verbal instructions could be a good solution.

I am not playing the game , my brother does and yesterday he show me how he won 3 out of 5 CL cups with a Greek team ... having 5 players in free role , i think i will visit him to watch a couple of matches to see how this works .

I am not playing the game , my brother does and yesterday he show me how he won 3 out of 5 CL cups with a Greek team ... having 5 players in free role , i think i will visit him to watch a couple of matches to see how this works .

That's basically how Holland play in real life. They have 5 men behind the ball (well 6 if you include the goalie), 4 defenders plus a holding midfielder which have a steady position. And 5 men in front of the ball (usually Van der Vaart, Sneijder, Van Persie, Robben, Kuyt) with a lot of freedom to do as they please. Looks really nice and it works.