Seeing as SI do actually listen to their customers...

...its time to tell them to STOP releasing broken games that they cannot fix.

I dont want FM12, with its new amazing features that will "take the game to a new depth of realism". I want a game that is as bug-free as possible; that is a challenge at all levels, not just LLM; that cannot be exploited at match level with certain tactics but most importantly is fun to play.

They have (mostly) listened to everything else that the community wants in the game, and its time we told them to not release another FM until its properly checked and running properly. To be honest, I would prefer it if we just paid say £40 for the game, which is just Football Manager (no annual release) and then paid for add ons to it which they could release every so often, instead of releasing broken game after broken game.

Cannot believe my poor girlfriends mum bought me FM11.

Releasing a bug free, perfectly balanced, unexploitable game is almost impossible. Releasing a bug free, perfectly balanced, unexploitable game with any real depth is impossible. Every fix creates problems of it's own. Every re-balancing throws other things out. Every time the developers take two strides forward, the code base will naturally take a quick step backwards. It's in the very nature of developing a game like this.

Another thing in the game's nature is that it can seem fine when tested on 100 machines by 100 testers. And that'd be a very large QA team. However, when played on hundreds of thousands of machines by hundreds of thousands of players, things appear. Things the testers missed, that their play styles wouldn't replicate, that an oddly built machine could cause, that bad drivers could cause, or even that just had such a small chance of happening could cause.

The only issue I have with recent releases are the glaring issues, like the 2 yellow card bug in Spain. I would suggest that there's a patch "code lock" 5 working days before release. If a big problem like that is spotted, the code should be fixed, then relocked with a new 5 day countdown. That way the really obvious problems can be caught before a patch is released, even if it would cause occasional delays to patch releases. Obviously, should anything still slip through the resulting hotfix wouldn't need 5 days in clean lockdown.

...its time to tell them to STOP releasing broken games that they cannot fix.

I have a question for you.

Name one PC game that is released bug free... or alternatively one developer who can make a bug free game.

I have a question for you.

Name one PC game that is released bug free... or alternatively one developer who can make a bug free game.

Asked somebody else the same question in a different thread, and he answered a totally different question, i.e. which games do you know have no gamebreaking bugs. And do you know what given a quick (i.e. 30 second) internet search I found that SI come out really well compared to other major games, even those made by companies with far larger resources.

@OP if you are going to come out with a blatently false accusation, SI are not going to listen to you. The game is not broken, far from it and most problems in their game releases are fixed by patch 3 at the latest. If you have specific problems you want to highlight (and keep in mind that if it's game crashes look here and follow instructions first, as crashes often as not are caused by system problems). But please do not come on here and lay baseless accusations out in front of everyone.

all games have bugs. but this years version with the current level of any console of gaming is just a laughing stock.

Releasing a bug free, perfectly balanced, unexploitable game is almost impossible.

True, but how about releasing a game that is nearly bug free and reasonably balanced.

That seems a pretty fair request, given we're paying £30 for the title every 12 months, and most PC games fulfil that criteria.

all games have bugs. but this years version with the current level of any console of gaming is just a laughing stock.

Indeed.

if you are going to come out with a blatently false accusation, SI are not going to listen to you. The game is not broken, far from it and most problems in their game releases are fixed by patch 3 at the latest.

For something to need to be fixed by three or four patches, that indicates that something is broken. In short, there wouldn't be a need for a patch to "fix" anything if the game were not broken in the first place.

FM11 is quite clearly a broken product.

For something to need to be fixed by three or four patches, that indicates that something is broken. In short, there wouldn't be a need for a patch to "fix" anything if the game were not broken in the first place.

FM11 is quite clearly a broken product.

Don't kid yourself 3 or four patches is nothing, the final expansion for Civ IV needed 19! Fallout 3 needed 7 Diablo 2 needed 13 and still huge amounts of bugs (like CEB/LEB monsters being uber powerful). Three is the bare minimum amount of patches I've ever seen for a game where the developers actually cared enough about their product to have an after-sales service. What SI do as regards PC development is very tight in that in most editions they only need 3 patches to clear all but the most obscure or deep-lying bugs.

Don't kid yourself 3 or four patches is nothing, the final expansion for Civ IV needed 19! Fallout 3 needed 7 Diablo 2 needed 13 and still huge amounts of bugs (like CEB/LEB monsters being uber powerful). Three is the bare minimum amount of patches I've ever seen for a game where the developers actually cared enough about their product to have an after-sales service. What SI do as regards PC development is very tight in that in most editions they only need 3 patches to clear all but the most obscure or deep-lying bugs.

After 3 patches the game is working nicely, usually. But i also feel that they could still fix a lot of things after the 3rd patch.

The more we defend and say "that's how it is" the more problems we will see with an out-of-the-box product.

It is the way it is because we are letting it be that way.

The problem with FM is that it's supposed to simulate real life, meaning we have a reference point to compare the game to. It's impossible for a computer to predict a persons actions, never mind predicting 22 persons. So FM will never be perfect. What we can expect is the game allowing us to play in it's virtual reality meaning no crash dumps, interface bugs and completely unrealistic and random match events (I mean balls floating accross the field, physically impossible goals, etc.)

If the game does this, it's 'bug free'. Anything else is less important.

Also, everything you get after you buy the game in form of support and patches is an extra SI is giving you, and it's certainly not the customers right. You bought the game as is, and if you're not happy with it you shouldn't have bought it. There's reviews enough and even an almost fully functional demo to help you decide. The only alternative to making a new game every year is to keep pumping out incremental patches, much like an MMO. In fact, SI is already doing that with FM Live. In order for them to do that they would need a monthly fee, like FM Live. And even then it's sometimes better to just start all over again instead of trying to improve on an old game. You think we would have the 3d match engine if this were just a patched up version of FM 2005?

Ah, the weekly 'FM every two years/yearly update' thread.

Same old tired arguments. The business operates around an annual release. The issues that arise in each game would stil arise. We'd all complain the game was stagnating. etc,etc,etc

Almost from day one you've had anyone with a gripe opening a thread with words like 'broken' and 'unplayable', it's human nature to be drama queens for some people and no amount of change to the release cycle is going to change that.

It's a lot of entertainment this game is offering. For those who are playing at the moment and do not think it is complete broken and for those who spend hours on this forums to try to convince all the others that the game is totally broken.

Asked somebody else the same question in a different thread, and he answered a totally different question, i.e. which games do you know have no gamebreaking bugs. And do you know what given a quick (i.e. 30 second) internet search I found that SI come out really well compared to other major games, even those made by companies with far larger resources.

@OP if you are going to come out with a blatently false accusation, SI are not going to listen to you. The game is not broken, far from it and most problems in their game releases are fixed by patch 3 at the latest. If you have specific problems you want to highlight (and keep in mind that if it's game crashes look here and follow instructions first, as crashes often as not are caused by system problems). But please do not come on here and lay baseless accusations out in front of everyone.

Yeah, being fixed by patch 3 is great. However that gives 6 months of game play before the next installment of the game comes out. Tell me an other game that has an annual release, (hell its Sega's business stratergy to have an annual release) where you buy for 12 months cant play properly for 6, need to start new games after updates, then patches need hotfixes which require new games. It is broken.

Not that it matters but I've been knocking about since the very start. There have been incarnations of this game that I didn't get into (back in the CM days) for whatever reason, but I'm enjoying this version more so than any other. It's playable. For me. However I can see the bugs and can understand how some might affect others more than me.

Personally, I hope FM have a roadmap which includes developing the current interaction in the game so that it does not stagnate. Because there is plenty in the game that is quite meh as it stands at the minute. Still, hands down, the best piece of entertainment I own or have owned on the pc.

Bugs will always be in the game. But there's no doubt SI will have it all fixed by the final patch.

Say what you like, but they listen and they fix.

I have a question for you.

Name one PC game that is released bug free... or alternatively one developer who can make a bug free game.

I have a question too.

Why is it that the PC game industry can get away with releasing something that obviously has flaws?? Many, many other industries don't get allowances for such a get out of jail card.

Are they too ambitious in 'adding' new things annually??

Not just the games industry.

Ask Bill Gates.

it most certainly isn't unplayable now.

Have you had the issues with tactics yourself?

Can't play properly for six? I've been playing a game since 11.0 from the start, have never needed to start a new game and have been happily playing for all that period.

I know there are issues in the game, and some things DID make it unplayable for some (those with the Polish loading issue), however it most certainly isn't unplayable now.

Neil, We are told it is recommended to start a new game with each update. Yes thing are fixed and Si listen, however to be told that its the business model to release yearly, it gives 6 months before the next installment. I didnt say it was unplayable, However to follow recomended instructions you cant play properly until the final patch is released. I dont fancy starting a game to run as a career until I know I wont have to abandon it. Therefore I will be adjusting my purchasing model until the final patch is released.

Can't play properly for six? I've been playing a game since 11.0 from the start, have never needed to start a new game and have been happily playing for all that period.

I know there are issues in the game, and some things DID make it unplayable for some (those with the Polish loading issue), however it most certainly isn't unplayable now.

Haha, SI people hiding behind semantics now.

For 99% of people buying a football management game, having transfers completely screwed so that top players move for pennies renders the game unplayable. Or having a situation where your tactical and set piece instructions get mysteriously reset at random renders the game unplayable.

But for SI, no, as long as you can physically load the game, it's not unplayable.

Just typical of their attitude and arrogance these days.

Yeah, being fixed by patch 3 is great. However that gives 6 months of game play before the next installment of the game comes out. Tell me an other game that has an annual release, (hell its Sega's business stratergy to have an annual release) where you buy for 12 months cant play properly for 6, need to start new games after updates, then patches need hotfixes which require new games. It is broken.

Hmm didn't know that february(when the 3rd patch is generally released by) was six months after november. At least we get interaction from the SI team here, I frequent the official Bethesda forums and the developers etc don't show their faces on the forums to give the community answers on fixes in the buggy mess that was Fallout: New Vegas on launch.

Have you had the issues with tactics yourself?

The tactics bug doesn't make FM unplayable, it makes it frustrating/annoying/inconvenient. Seriously this 'unplayable' buzzword needs to stop it's becoming ridiculous

Hmm didn't know that february(when the 3rd patch is generally released by) was six months after november. At least we get interaction from the SI team here, I frequent the official Bethesda forums and the developers etc don't show their faces on the forums to give the community answers on fixes in the buggy mess that was Fallout: New Vegas on launch.

Ok maybe not 6 months, but its a yearly release 1/3 of the time given over to a patching cycle, as it generally late feb or march when the third patch is release, oh but allow a few weeks the hot fix and we are getting towards to half life cycle of the game. I thought this was as SI forum!!

Name one PC game that is released bug free... or alternatively one developer who can make a bug free game.

Sheesh, the OP never stated he expects a perfect bug-free game. It seems like any criticism of FM brings up the "no game is perfect" crowd. The initial release of FM11 was one of the worst in terms of quality and considered to be broken/unplayable by many. The OP merely wants SI to show some improve on this process in the future.

I want a game that is as bug-free as possible

What tactics bug is this? I have played the game since the day of release and except a few niggles I find the game very playable and rather good. One bug that still frustrates me is the views because it says custom view all the way along the top of the team page, and also my youth team condition are all 0% with very poor morale, but neither of these are game stoppers.

I've been a player of the series for over a decade now, and if you compare the recent editions of the game compared to the old CM days, well I think it's quite clear that SI have come a long way with the game. The old versions were perhaps not so user friendly in the set-up, and you had to be very methodical if you wanted to do well in it. I remember the hassle of actually comparing two players, and the the actually comparison screen which was just so vague. Not to mention there wasn't even a 2D pitch to view, so you literally had to visualise the match from the commentary. The tactics regarding closing down was simply, pressing, yes or no.

So the series has come far in a lot of respects. I do understand the frustration regarding FM 11, as there are a number of problems. But again, there are improvements from FM 10. Notably in how the press conferences are now more user friendly, and the match engine has been improved in some areas too. So there is still some hope that the January patch will give us the best FM yet, and if not, then I'd suggest that FM 12 probably will be.

One thing I'd really like to see from the series is maybe a varying difficulty. I understand that they don't want the game to be too hard for the average footy fan. However, like how there's an option for attribute masking to make scouting more important, I think an idea might be an option for complete attribute masking, so as a manager, you don't know players and their attributes by concrete numbers, and it'd be up to the player to try as grasp from watching them play, and coach reports, ect, which would surely add to the realism of it, and SI insist, they are always looking to make the game as realistic a simulation of football managing as possible.

That's the problem with the set pieces, some people are reporting experiencing this issue almost every game; whereas a tester here on the other hand, played through almost a season making numerous tactical changes per game with 100% custom set piece instructions and never got this to happen. People have also reported a workaround for people who are suffering with tactical issues, which isn't ideal but has helped:

"If you change your tactic to an archived tactic, and if one of the the two panels is Team Instructions, then the values you had previously set for all the team related instructions don't get reset. However, if you change tactics when neither panel is Team Instructions, then they are reset correctly. If you change tactics, when one of the panels is Player Instructions, then this is working fine too."

And I don't know quite how we're being arrogant in regards to these issues. People were unhappy with the transfers so we've looked at this and tried to improve it. But I'd agree that 'unplayable' has become a bit of a buzzword in regards for an issue which annoys people rather than destroys their game.

So, in other words: we won't/shouldn't be counting on a fix regarding the Tactics Screen/Instructions any time soon...

I think some people are a little harsh when they try to express themselves, which is entirely unecessary, but I can imagine that these type of issues do irretate some - playing the game as it is with your favorite save feels a little like cheating on your girlfriend with a much uglier woman...

I never get people like this. If you truly believe the game is 'unplayable' why do you buying it when it first comes out when you could wait until Feburary when the third patch comes. I never buy any game when it first comes out because every game has bugs when it first arrives and some have patches to fix it so why not wait until it is fully patch and always cheaper.

all games have bugs. but this years version with the current level of any console of gaming is just a laughing stock.

totally agree with this

I am taking your approach from now on, however I dont think the game is unplayable. It is not what it should be. Though you cant find out if you are happy with it until you play it. The demo is not long enough to find that out.

The tactics bug doesn't make FM unplayable, it makes it frustrating/annoying/inconvenient. Seriously this 'unplayable' buzzword needs to stop it's becoming ridiculous

I'd agree that 'unplayable' has become a bit of a buzzword in regards for an issue which annoys people rather than destroys their game.

It's frustrating enough that I've stopped playing. Whether you consider that worthy of the term "unplayable" doesn't matter. The way I play FM is based around tactics, so I'm forever tweaking etc. The fact that I can't do that without having to constantly redo all my work, it makes the game unplayable for me.

As someone who works for SI, I'm shocked that you find this an acceptable state for the game to be in and that we should just get on with it.

I very rarely post, I just read and most of the time chuckle to myself at the things people write. I have been playing this game since the original CM and frankly have found 2011 one of the most PLAYABLE games yet. I must be lucky but none of the UNPLAYABLE BUGS people have mentioned have appeared in my games. Since the release of 2011 I have played 3 saved games in 3 different leagues/countries and I have found it to be very enjoyable. The only bug I have come across is too many double yellows but 75% of them go to the AI. I have NEVER personally come across any bugs with set pieces, they work pretty much the way I set them up (except for my ****** players not being able to execute them, current game with Burton, League 2). I agree with all the Pro-SI comments in this post because I also play the Civilization Series and talk about bugs, holy moly!!!!! Hey guys, think about the level of detail in the game, every-god-damn-thing affects every-other-thing. Things could always be better, I could be rich and handsome, but I reckon SI have done a pretty good job. on-ya fellas!

PS There is one thing SI could improve, media and fan comments. I (Burton) made it to 4th round FA Cup and after a 2-2 draw with Blackburn@home we lost 3-1 in replay away. Fans comment...... ''A bit concerned with result'' Come-on fans give me a break, can't you see how crappy the team is, they trip over their own feet!!!!

WOW. My faith left in SI has just been squashed.

There will be no "hotfix" - as previously announced, there will be an 11.3 patch, scheduled for release after the winter transfer window.

Thanks.

Quote is from Lucas Weatherby in another thread.

So the game is Football Manager. A big part of being a Football Manager is your tactics, which is broken. I know its hard to replicate for the testers and its not happening to everybody but surely its a big enough bug to be considered a priority? Obviously not. How SI/Sega expect people to wait another 2 months at least is a joke in all honesty.

I can't believe it either. Ridiculous.

Can someone please humour me.

What is the tactics issue exactly?

Am i the only person that enjoys playing FM!? haha

Am i the only person that enjoys playing FM!? haha

Nah it's okay, just gotta play full auto on tactics.. standard tactic with auto roles etc. Just sad, but it was bound to happen I suppose, it's been broken since 2010 v, after my opinion, the shout thing gotta go...there is nothing to add in realism there. It should be a part of the tactic setup...and a easy swap between the 3 tactics available in the pre-match arrangement. Then leave the individual stuff like marking and hard tackling on ....

When the match is on, you hardly ever see a coach standing on the sideline and yapping, it happens. He might try and change some offensive or defensive systems. But he would never start teaching them to play the ball to the feet 40 min into the game. It's utterly nonsense.

may as well go back to the original "football manager" on the spectrum where you just select the players and cross your fingers

So the game is Football Manager. A big part of being a Football Manager is your tactics, which is broken.

It's bugged, but not broken. If you have to set the tactics before every match again, you are doing what every real manager is doing. Therefore it's still Football Manager, just with some more adjustments than before. Of course, when it happens it's frustrating. But why not make the best out of it until the bug is located and fixed?

I can't stand this title, is no one else bugged by "Seen as"?

that is all.

Can't play properly for six? I've been playing a game since 11.0 from the start, have never needed to start a new game and have been happily playing for all that period.

I know there are issues in the game, and some things DID make it unplayable for some (those with the Polish loading issue), however it most certainly isn't unplayable now.

Must not spend too much time with MLS, eh? Unplayable from day 1, and the "fixes" for the recent patch failed to address any of the major bugs that have been posted since the game was released.

It's bugged, but not broken. If you have to set the tactics before every match again, you are doing what every real manager is doing. Therefore it's still Football Manager, just with some more adjustments than before. Of course, when it happens it's frustrating. But why not make the best out of it until the bug is located and fixed?

Fine its bugged then. Still not working how it should though is it? And yeah, we dont have much choice about it do we seing as there will be no fix until Feb/March. Its just problem after problem and they are not exactly small are they?

Fine its bugged then. Still not working how it should though is it? And yeah, we dont have much choice about it do we seing as there will be no fix until Feb/March. Its just problem after problem and they are not exactly small are they?

No they aren't small Stevo. but yes it does look like we are going to have to wait. In all honesty, the workround isn't exactly the most taxing thing in the world to have to do, annoying, but not the worst thing ever.

As for the wait, I see no other choice for anyone. SI aren't going to just decide to not have a xmas holiday. Whats everyone going to do? Just vent on here til patch 3? Thats going to produce a lot of negative energy, I sincerely believe some people might explode.

I'm not condoning their actions, I'm not saying anything about any of this is right, I just see very little end product in this constant whining and thread opening and demanding of this, that and the other.

Fine its bugged then. Still not working how it should though is it? And yeah, we dont have much choice about it do we seing as there will be no fix until Feb/March. Its just problem after problem and they are not exactly small are they?

Not small but it doesn't prevent you from taking control of a team, buying players, picking a team, playing matches, winning the league etc etc. You can use the workaround for the time being or you can carry on moaning on these forums until it's fixed. I know what I'd rather do

Not small but it doesn't prevent you from taking control of a team, buying players, picking a team, playing matches, winning the league etc etc. You can use the workaround for the time being or you can carry on moaning on these forums until it's fixed. I know what I'd rather do

You could say that about nearly every bug though apart from the crash dumps.

Can't play properly for six? I've been playing a game since 11.0 from the start, have never needed to start a new game and have been happily playing for all that period.

I know there are issues in the game, and some things DID make it unplayable for some (those with the Polish loading issue), however it most certainly isn't unplayable now.

11.0 and you're still playing??? Some people are easily pleased. 11.0 in my opinion was a disaster.

I would settle for it not crashing every time I play. In my line of work if a product is not fit for purpose (and FM11 clearly isn't) then you either repair/fix it or give a refund (or credit note). It is true that after a few patches but that is usually 3 months after releasing. I have gone back to playing FM10 patch 10.3. I was not aware that I would be playing the beta version when I purchased the game. And before all you techies jump down my throat take a second to think about it. We all invest time into the experience of playing the game so the least we deserve is a product that works. I am not too bothered about the bugs because that is normal as stated earlier.

11.0 and you're still playing??? Some people are easily pleased. 11.0 in my opinion was a disaster.

What he quite clearly stated was that he started the save on 11.0 and has continued through the patches.

11.0 was better than 11.2 anyway. IMO.

I would settle for it not crashing every time I play. In my line of work if a product is not fit for purpose (and FM11 clearly isn't) then you either repair/fix it or give a refund (or credit note). It is true that after a few patches but that is usually 3 months after releasing. I have gone back to playing FM10 patch 10.3. I was not aware that I would be playing the beta version when I purchased the game. And before all you techies jump down my throat take a second to think about it. We all invest time into the experience of playing the game so the least we deserve is a product that works. I am not too bothered about the bugs because that is normal as stated earlier.

If you mean "for you", and you have every driver up to date, have all the specs up to date, etc, then yeah, maybe you should be given a refund. Good luck getting it thou.

If you mean "in general", then you have an impressively demanding concept of "not fit for purpose".