Is it right that SI require us to use 3rd party programs to get all benefits?

This year, if you wanted to download the demo on release date rather than the day after, you were required to download and use Steam.

In my eyes, having it on Steam first SI are effectively pushing us towards downloading and using Steam - and I really don't think we should be 'forced' to use such a program if we want to play the game at the same time as others.

A similar story goes for the podcast. Whilst I have that on my laptop anyway as it is, by far, the best media player on the market in my eyes, we are still being made to download 3rd party software if we want the full benefits of buying an SI product.

It should be interesting to get people's views towards this, so please discuss it below.

*please note that the first few posts are from a previous thread, in which Gillsman and I first discussed this issue*

GillsMan Post

There's nothing wrong with trying to encourage people to use Steam IMO; I can see why it's in their interest (helps ensure everyone is running the same version of the game), though forcing people to use Steam would be too much, even for a Steam fanboy like me.

Thing is, SI know exactly how much people look forward to playing the demo. By releasing it on Steam a day early, they are getting probably hundreds of extra people to use it even if they don't want to, purely because they want to have the same opportunities to play the game.

It might be just me - personally I hate being advertised to in every area of life - but there are probably many more who would prefer for everyone to have the opportunity to play the game at the same time, regardless of whether they want to use Steam or not.

Similarly, whilstI have no problem with downloading the podcast on iTunes as I use it, I can completely see why people would not want to download a new program just for something that, in all honesty, should be available to anyone who pays £30 a year to Sports Interactive and SEGA.

Gillsman Post

Not unreasonable points at all, but I do think we have to be clear that the £30 pays for a license to use the full FM11 product. Extras such as demos, podcasts, forums, etc, are just that - extra, and not included in the £30 cost. Though I do understand the point you're making.

It's an interesting one. I won't lie, I'm all for advertising in games and games being used via portals such as Steam in a bid to drive down piracy. Many people have speculated that the PC games market is dead/dying, largely due to piracy. Personally, I don't agree, but I do think that any drives which aim to decrease piracy can only be a good thing. GTAIV was released on PC about a year after the consoles got it (and the PC version wasn't even announced until several months after the console versions had already been announced). The rumours were that this was due to PC games piracy being rife.

So I don't personally have a problem with this drive. But...I do see your point and it's valid. Prices on Steam can be very expensive - Modern Warfare II is still £40 on Steam which I can't justify, but then I bought Left 4 Dead 2 for £6.20 which was an utter bargain. There's pros and cons to both sides of the argument. But in light of the above, I can see why a developer might want people to purchase their games via a portal lieke Steam.

Not unreasonable points at all, but I do think we have to be clear that the £30 pays for a license to use the full FM11 product. Extras such as demos, podcasts, forums, etc, are just that - extra, and not included in the £30 cost. Though I do understand the point you're making.

It's an interesting one. I won't lie, I'm all for advertising in games and games being used via portals such as Steam in a bid to drive down piracy. Many people have speculated that the PC games market is dead/dying, largely due to piracy. Personally, I don't agree, but I do think that any drives which aim to decrease piracy can only be a good thing. GTAIV was released on PC about a year after the consoles got it (and the PC version wasn't even announced until several months after the console versions had already been announced). The rumours were that this was due to PC games piracy being rife.

So I don't personally have a problem with this drive. But...I do see your point and it's valid. Prices on Steam can be very expensive - Modern Warfare II is still £40 on Steam which I can't justify, but then I bought Left 4 Dead 2 for £6.20 which was an utter bargain. There's pros and cons to both sides of the argument. But in light of the above, I can see why a developer might want people to purchase their games via a portal lieke Steam.

You're right in saying that the £30 pays for the license to use FM11, and I fully understand that. However, without the £30 that we give the companies each and every year, they wouldn't be able to run - meaning they wouldn't be able to produce the demos, the podcasts, the forums, even if they wanted to. If we stopped buying the game every year, there is no way that SI as a company could run, and I think the consumers deserve the best, and equal, treatment from the company as we allow them to run and make money.

I've been playing the game since FM07. So, FM11 will be the fifth version that I've bought. That's £150 that I've paid to SI, if we go by the RRP. Is my £150 any less valuable to SI, just because I would prefer not to download 3rd party software? By excluding a certain percentage of loyal customers from playing the game at the same time as others, I would say that that appears to be the case.

I've been playing the game since FM07. So, FM11 will be the fifth version that I've bought. That's £150 that I've paid to SI, if we go by the RRP. Is my £150 any less valuable to SI, just because I would prefer not to download 3rd party software? By excluding a certain percentage of loyal customers from playing the game at the same time as others, I would say that that appears to be the case.

Just want to point out you haven't paid £150 to SI. You have paid £150 which have been split between all members of the supply chain (Developers, publishers, retailers & delivery companies to name a few).

Because having people download the full game on Steam means that SI don't have to spend so much on packaging costs and helps stop piracy, which means they eventually get more profit. Hard copy games will always have a market though. And you will at least have the hard copy of the full game on the release date...

The North American release WWSM09 was released one week (5 days iirc) after FM09 in Europe. That decision by SI basically made up my mind that I was going to buy FM10 and FM10 only because I wanted to play the game on the 'real' release date. Needless to say I was very happy WWSM10 did not exist and I could play FM10 the same day as the rest of the world. So yes, I understand how you feel about this issue.

As for me, prices of games on Steam in the North American region are very cheap. Cheaper than going to a store or importing, so I will always choose Steam.

Re-quoted my own post here because Jammy said he would respond me if I posted here...

Just want to point out you haven't paid £150 to SI. You have paid £150 which have been split between all members of the supply chain (Developers, publishers, retailers & delivery companies to name a few).

Okay, but that is purely a technicality. We've paid £30 for the game that SI produce and sell. They're the company responsible for the game, the demo, the podcast and all other related items.

I've got no idea how much SI get from each sale of the game. I'd imagine SEGA get a much larger percentage than them, actually. But they still make the game, and regardless of whether SI get £150 or £25 from the money I've spent, it's still their product that I'm buying and playing.

The demo release date was the Friday. We were able to make it available early via Steam as it is very easy at a production level to distribute. Miles explained this at the time.

I'm completely aware of what Mile said when the demo was released. And yes, you're correct, the demo release date was Friday. But the game was made available on the Thursday, albeit to certain users. In my eyes, this makes the release date the Thursday. Even if SI still insist that the release date was Friday, there were still those users willing to use Steam able to get it on the Thursday. There is absolutely no way that anyone can argue that this means that Steam users aren't treated preferentially.

I understand that it's easy to distribute at production level, but is it that difficult to not press a button releasing the demo on Steam for one day? That way, everyone gets the demo on the so called release date.

---------------------------

I'd just like to apologise for my posts seeming a bit blunt and perhaps even rude. I've always found that my posts are the very opposite of concise, so thought it'd make it easier for more people to read if I changed that and shortened my replies.

Because having people download the full game on Steam means that SI don't have to spend so much on packaging costs and helps stop piracy, which means they eventually get more profit. Hard copy games will always have a market though. And you will at least have the hard copy of the full game on the release date...

The North American release WWSM09 was released one week (5 days iirc) after FM09 in Europe. That decision by SI basically made up my mind that I was going to buy FM10 and FM10 only because I wanted to play the game on the 'real' release date. Needless to say I was very happy WWSM10 did not exist and I could play FM10 the same day as the rest of the world. So yes, I understand how you feel about this issue.

As for me, prices of games on Steam in the North American region are very cheap. Cheaper than going to a store or importing, so I will always choose Steam.

Re-quoted my own post here because Jammy said he would respond me if I posted here...

Cheers Rancer

It's not about having people download the game from Steam, though. It's about people being punished for not wanting to use it. Sure, it's completely understandable that SI would want you to use Steam because of the costs related - even if it costs very small amounts compared to the amount the game costs. But to punish those who don't use it? That's just not fair.

Personally, I can't use Steam because it makes my laptop run too slowly. This means that, if I had have needed to download the demo, I wouldn't have been able to get it at the same time as others. But whether people can't use Steam or are just not wanting to, those who do use it get things before others have the chance to.

In my eyes, SI should be treating all customers as equals. By allowing some to access things before others, this isn't happening.

No, theyre just restricting their own exposure.

They could release the game free on steam, itunes or with starforce and I stiill wouldnt bother downloading it.

The demo release date was the Friday. We were able to make it available early via Steam as it is very easy at a production level to distribute. Miles explained this at the time.

Rubbish. Do you honestly expect people to believe that?!

Try and push it on us all you like, i'll never play via Steam.

If people are that desperate to play the demo then they could download steam play the demo then uninstall the next day and download the demo normally. Personally I do not see what all the fuss is about it's only day. I don't see how people are being forced to use steam if you don't want to use it then don't simple.

Personally, I can't use Steam because it makes my laptop run too slowly.

I've heard it all now.... sheeesh!

It's lighter than Messenger, most AntiVirus, most Firewalls, and almost anything else your OEM has bloated into your system tray.

Steam clearly does not 'slow your PC down'.

Steam had the bandwidth resources to host the demo as soon as ready, SI/Daily Mirror didn't. It's that simple tbf. Why should those of us who choose the benefits of modern digital distribution be held back by the torrent/filefront brigade?

I don't see the problem in releasing their 'material' by either Steam or iTunes. If you don't want to access it in that way, don't. The fact is they are probably the best method of releasing that sort of material.

It's only like them using The Mirror to do their blogs. If you didn't like The Mirror newspaper would you complain that you are being forced onto their site to read the blogs?

Why shouldn't SI use third party partners, if it allows them to deliver services to the community faster and more efficiently?

I should add, almost all games need and/or encapsulate third party components. DirectX run-time is a third party product that's compulsory with the overwhelming majority of games, certainly on Windows. Of course, game developers could write their own graphics routines for interfacing with drivers. But that would cost them money and development time - for absolutely no benefit. It's rather obvious when you think about it, isn't it?

Steam, Impulse, and other digital distribution platforms are going to be used more and more by developers - it's just the way of things. When something delivers so many benefits in efficiency, the market gravitates to it.

As for 'being punished for not using Steam' - that's not correct. Non Steam users were able to download it as soon as it could have been made available. It's a simple truth that Steam can get large content ready for direct distribution faster than the alternatives, at no signifiant cost to S.I. and no cost to users. That's a win-win for everyone, and forcing SI to hold everything back for the less efficient distribution systems is just backwards.

Of course, when you're talking about the full game's release, there are commercial ramifications for having Steam sell the product before stores have it on shelves. But that's different.

Why do people hate steam so much?

I don't see the problem in releasing their 'material' by either Steam or iTunes. If you don't want to access it in that way, don't. The fact is they are probably the best method of releasing that sort of material.

It's only like them using The Mirror to do their blogs. If you didn't like The Mirror newspaper would you complain that you are being forced onto their site to read the blogs?

No but I would if I was forced to install a program I didnt want on my system to read them. The best way to release stuff is via http, if thats too expensive then use a torrent. Steam/Itunes are the worst way but I expect other factors like getting money come into it.

The demo was released on the friday and you didnt need to use any 3rd party program to get/play it.

If you used steam you could get the demo a day early as a bonus. Therefore your Opening post is flawed.

I presume you got it on the demo release day so what your problem?

Anyone who has Steam or has used it in the past knows what a good and useful tool it can be. And just like any company it uses marketing and special offers to promote itself. Steam users could get the demo a DAY early. Whoop-de-doo, such a huge advantage eh?

Now that doesnt mean your forced to use Steam at all. Its not SI's fault that you dont seem to like steam and they arent forcing you to use it.

Similar with the podcasts, you dont need to use itunes for them either. I dont.

Honestly it seems your just moaning for the sake of it, just grow up.

It would be interesting to have a poll to see how many people like/approve of Steam and how many people don't want to use it.

I come firmly in the latter camp, for what it's worth.

I don't mind using Steam. I can't find a reason not to.

Why do people hate steam so much?

Seriously I've never been able to figure this out.

I buy almost everything on Steam. Yes, when it first came along there were technical glitches and sometimes games got updated slower to Steam than other mediums, but nowadays its smooth as silk. It has a lot of benefits too like the ability to download and play the games you own on any computer just by logging into steam, and they routinely have really good deals on relatively new games. It doesn't have annoying popups or other issues like many game sites, its download rate is faster than if you bought the game directly from a small publisher like SI. It also provides a great place for smaller publishers to reach a larger audience with their products.

after the fiasco that was me trying to play fm 09 through steam I vowed never to use it again. However I gave in and bought Plants vs Zombies through steam while ago. If you don't want to use it then don't. SI aren't forcing you to use it or itunes for that matter.

Steam is a piece of software that is actually very easy to use and doesn't hog your system like some programs do. The demo was released a day early as acid said you could have downloaded it via steam on the thursday then uninstalled it and steam when it was released on friday. It was your choice and you decided to go without steam while there are many o us who got it thursday and enjoyed it.

Seriously I've never been able to figure this out.

I buy almost everything on Steam. Yes, when it first came along there were technical glitches and sometimes games got updated slower to Steam than other mediums, but nowadays its smooth as silk. It has a lot of benefits too like the ability to download and play the games you own on any computer just by logging into steam, and they routinely have really good deals on relatively new games. It doesn't have annoying popups or other issues like many game sites, its download rate is faster than if you bought the game directly from a small publisher like SI. It also provides a great place for smaller publishers to reach a larger audience with their products.

I have never used it before, was there some sort of achievements system on FM10?

As an American, Steam is really the only real option for me to get the game at all. I'm sure I'm not alone in that, too; I'd assume there are plenty of other places where the game itself isn't sold as a hard copy. Steam, therefore, is increasing their global distribution reach, and it's doing so VERY easily from their perspective; if I were a game developer, Steam would be my preferred method of release too. On top of that, a quick perusal of the "Anyone not playing the FM11 demo for whatever reason?" thread shows that most of the respondents in there aren't playing the demo. Sure, they've downloaded it to take a look, but most people seem to be waiting for the whole game to come out.

As far as podcasts go, iTunes has pretty much taken over that market because it works and it's easy. If you have an iPod, you've got it already; if you don't, well, you probably STILL have it already. I can't fault SI for posting it on iTunes. Further, most iTunes alternatives allow you to download podcasts; they're essentially glorified RSS readers, but they do the job (without all the glitz and glamor of the iTunes store). I agree with you about limiting your availability, but the two platforms you're talking about are so ubiquitous that they're generally assumed to be part of the overall computing experience. They're also free, which means that the end user has lots of content available to them for essentially no cost. It's not like they're forcing you to download a program with a huge footprint or one that costs money.

There is no exposure of FM in Canada (well except maybe an advert on mlssoccer.com). Steam is the only way I can buy the game without paying customs for it. You (the mostly European population) can have access to shops everywhere that you can sell FM, but the non-traditional markets like Canada don't have any access to a shop that would sell FM. I think the addition of Steam is a good marketing tool for SI to reach those markets that they couldn't have reached before (like Canada) because there wouldn't be much point selling the hard copy of the game here since there would be no profit.

I don't think there's anything wrong with SI trying to tap into new markets without much economic risk through digital downloads.

I've heard it all now.... sheeesh!

It's lighter than Messenger, most AntiVirus, most Firewalls, and almost anything else your OEM has bloated into your system tray.

Steam clearly does not 'slow your PC down'.

Steam had the bandwidth resources to host the demo as soon as ready, SI/Daily Mirror didn't. It's that simple tbf. Why should those of us who choose the benefits of modern digital distribution be held back by the torrent/filefront brigade?

I tried to use Steam for FM10, but it made the game take a very long time - and by that I mean times in excess of 30 minutes - to load. Using it really isn't an option for me.

It's not about trying to hold back those who use Steam. It's about making everyone equal, and not releasing the game early to those who use Steam isn't 'holding them back'. It's keeping them on time.

I don't see the problem in releasing their 'material' by either Steam or iTunes. If you don't want to access it in that way, don't. The fact is they are probably the best method of releasing that sort of material.

It's only like them using The Mirror to do their blogs. If you didn't like The Mirror newspaper would you complain that you are being forced onto their site to read the blogs?

Are we required to download a 3rd party program in order to view the blogs? No? That makes that point irrelevant.

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Okay, I really don't have time to reply to all the other posts at the moment. I'll try to reply at some point soon, but I'm sure there is someone else with the same view as me who might want to reply.

Seriously I've never been able to figure this out.

Wait until they accuse you of cheating or having your account hacked, then ban you not only from that game but the dozens of other games youve bought.

You have no rights at all with them.

Steam is about as user friendly as iTunes. It's a fairly unfriendly piece of software that has a large market because a) it got there first, b) the products that go with it are popular. The only difference is that Steam isn't developed by the companies that make games. It takes longer to install games, and your games are in someone else's hands. It has a horrible UI, and in this instance, it's very hard to find the editor.

Anyway, I think this instance is forgivable, given that it was logistics based more than anything. I do think SI should introduce a less intrusive DRM option (such as unilock) to use to activate the game.

Steam is awesome, seriously 90% of the complaints about it here are from the technically illiterate ( you know those same guys who moaned when FM went 3d because their 10 year old pcs couldn't run it any more)

It is in no way required by the game, there are fringe benefits for using it granted, but these are nothing to make non steam FM'ers get all but hurt over.

Every year we see Steam moaning threads , yet the game sells a ton of steam copies, the copy protection offered via steam is much less intrusive than the likes of the maligned uni-loc and did i forget it's not actually required period.

As for the claims of Steam slowing computers down : this is your own fault , the programme uses ~20MB of system memory and negligible cpu time.

Steam and Itunes make my life EASIER , they make the millions of people who have made these 2 platforms the market leader in their respective fields lives easier. No way would I ever expect SI to go back to using antiquated methods to appease the grumpy old technophobes that frequent these boards.

I don't mind using Steam. I can't find a reason not to.

I just don't want it on my system. I've got no interest in having another application on my system while I'm running FM.

I hate having these sorts of programmes on my computer automatically starting up whenever I turn it on. I also feel like I lose control of where it installs the game and when it installs patches and so on and so forth. And I don't want to have them advertising games to me every time I just want to play FM. Essentially, I just can't see any benefit for me and just another piece of unwanted and bloated rubbish on my laptop.

I always want to have a boxed version of the game and I can never see myself purchasing via Steam. Plus, I don't want to authenticate (or whatever you call it) and access my game via Steam, which might not always be there to support FM in the future. I just can't find a single reason for me personally to use it.

What happened to the good old days when we could just put the CD in the drive, load the game and then off we went?

Steam is about as user friendly as iTunes. It's a fairly unfriendly piece of software that has a large market because a) it got there first, b) the products that go with it are popular. The only difference is that Steam isn't developed by the companies that make games. It takes longer to install games, and your games are in someone else's hands. It has a horrible UI, and in this instance, it's very hard to find the editor.

More good reasons not to use Steam.

I do think SI should introduce a less intrusive DRM option (such as unilock) to use to activate the game.

I agree.

Anyway, I think this instance is forgiveable, given that it was logistics based more than anything. I do think SI should introduce a less intrusive DRM option (such as unilock) to use to activate the game.

Are you trolling ? Uniloc was universal hated by the community and dropped after only a year because of how awful it is. Or is no one being able to use their software for a couple of day acceptable ?

Guys, the argument isn't about people being forced to use Steam, but the argument is about Steam users getting the Demo earlier than other users, you can't tell me SI didn't know that thousands of people were desperate to play the demo as soon as possible, and pushing the release date for Steam demo wasn't without knowing that many people will use Steam just to get the demo as soon as possible.

I don't mind using Steam. I can't find a reason not to.

I've had loads of bad experiences with Steam.

Sometimes updates are too slow and sometimes i can't even play the damn game because of Steam bugs.

I can't play the Steam demo right now because of an issue with Steam and that's why i'll NEVER buy the game through Steam, it's too much of a risk, i hate it when a product i've bought is being dependant to a third-party software that not only doesn't make it easier, it makes everything more complicated.

Are you trolling ? Uniloc was universal hated by the community and dropped after only a year because of how awful it is. Or is no one being able to use their software for a couple of day acceptable ?

It was hated for the first few days because SI's servers were attacked by a third party. After that, there were no problems with it. I don't think you can blame Unilock/SoftAnchor/SI for that. And fwiw, in the first few days there were as many threads ripping into Steam as there were for Unilock.

My activation with Unilock on FM09 took seconds, installation took 5-10 minutes. With Steam on FM10, it took twenty minutes, was not near completion, I got frustrated and installed manually, which again took 5-10 minutes. Unilock is far quicker, at least on my machine. Also, I said "less intrusive"- Unilock won't stay lingering in the background of your computer (yes, I know it barely uses any resources!) and doesn't have the thread of you being banned.

I also didn't say "get rid of Steam", I said "give another option for those who don't like Steam, and don't like playing with the disk in."

Cheers Rancer

In my eyes, SI should be treating all customers as equals. By allowing some to access things before others, this isn't happening.

Why? As a basis of this, if delivery option a is going to cost me £10/download and delivery option b is going to cost 1p why would I not show preferential treatment to those customer using option b? It benefits me, as a business, to use option b so as my preferred route I will offer something that gets more of my customers using that. Whether the above is true of SI or not I don't know, and obviously the numbers are exagerated, but doesn't that make sense?

As for whether you will or won't use Steam, iTunes, impulse or a.n.other digital delivery method, the reality of PC Gaming is that it is evolving in to digital delivery very rapidly. Buying your box down at the local game store is almost non-existant now. For physical boxes you are looking more to online shops, so the only real issues that are problems to digital delivery are speed and limit of download. Speed, isn't really a big issue as you will eventually get the download complete from any of the digital distributers. As for download limits, more of a problem (certainly in the UK) but not everywhere, and something that is being given serious consideration everywhere. So something that we should see reduced.

Given all of these, we as customers of a PC Game should be expecting to be asked to use digital distribution more and more. It is going to be the future whether we like it or not, so the next question is really which platforms. Personally, I think it is in everyones best interests to use as many of the different platforms as possible. However, not being a games producer, or publisher I don't know the details of the various costs associated with the different distributers. But I assume they're not too dissimilar to none digital distribution.

Personally, I like Steam, I've never had any issues with it and use it on multiple machines, with only 1 connecting at any given time. I also like impulse and use that as well. Never used the others to date, as I've never needed to. But ultimately as others have said 3rd party tools have been used for a long time, and 3rd party distribution tools are here to stay and probably a better medium for the companies using them to distribute by (otherwise they wouldn't be this successful!). At the end of the day, it is SI that has the choice of how it distributes because as a business it has to make money, so it doesn't need to be "fair". As a customer, of course I want to be treated equally, and I want the best options. But if SI decide that big boxes on shelves makes it the most money, and I have no ability to go and buy those boxes then that is my issue not SI's.

Post #36 is a great post.

I always want to have a boxed version of the game and I can never see myself purchasing via Steam. Plus, I don't want to authenticate (or whatever you call it) and access my game via Steam, which might not always be there to support FM in the future. I just can't find a single reason for me personally to use it.

Steam have promised to ensure that if they ever do shut down (Not likely the way I see the situation), they'll have a contigency plan available that unlocks all the games for those who own software purchased through Steam. Of course, some won't trust them with that, personally I take it on good faith.

What happened to the good old days when we could just put the CD in the drive, load the game and then off we went?

Pirates screwed it for everyone.

It was hated for the first few days because SI's servers were attacked by a third party. After that, there were no problems with it. I don't think you can blame Unilock/SoftAnchor/SI for that. And fwiw, in the first few days there were as many threads ripping into Steam as there were for Unilock.

My activation with Unilock on FM09 took seconds, installation took 5-10 minutes. With Steam on FM10, it took twenty minutes, was not near completion, I got frustrated and installed manually, which again took 5-10 minutes. Unilock is far quicker, at least on my machine. Also, I said "less intrusive"- Unilock won't stay lingering in the background of your computer (yes, I know it barely uses any resources!) and doesn't have the thread of you being banned.

I also didn't say "get rid of Steam", I said "give another option for those who don't like Steam, and don't like playing with the disk in."

Spot on. And I'm not just sucking up to you because you're a mod now SCIAG. (Congratulations btw!)

I'm completely aware of what Mile said when the demo was released. And yes, you're correct, the demo release date was Friday. But the game was made available on the Thursday, albeit to certain users. In my eyes, this makes the release date the Thursday. Even if SI still insist that the release date was Friday, there were still those users willing to use Steam able to get it on the Thursday. There is absolutely no way that anyone can argue that this means that Steam users aren't treated preferentially.

I take it you are against pre-ordering the game from online shops then? Various online stores will get the game to you before the release date, so in the above substitute Steam for Amazon/play/gameplay etc:

I'm completely aware of what Mile said when the game was released. And yes, you're correct, the game release date was Friday. But the game was made available on the Thursday, albeit to certain users. In my eyes, this makes the release date the Thursday. Even if SI still insist that the release date was Friday, there were still those users willing to use amazon/play/gameplay able to get it on the Thursday. There is absolutely no way that anyone can argue that this means that amazon/play/gameplay users aren't treated preferentially.

Arguing about when and how the demo is released is in my opinon rather petty especially at the moment when you are lucky to get a pre-release demo or even a demo of a PC game let alone two versions of the demo with eventually multiple hosts, I take it you are also against SI using Torrents, Filefront or Gameshadow to host the demo as they all require Third Parties aswell?

I'm also not sure what you are complaining about with regards to the podcast, there is a link in the podcast thread to the RSS feed from the SIGames website that includes links to the mp3 downloads that don't require 3rd part programs (well apart from a web browser, a supported OS and Media Player). Also as far as I'm aware podcasts are called podcasts due to the fact that they are integrated with itunes/ipod.

I have plently of concerns with Steam, but giving people the option of using Steam to get a free demo early isn't one of them.

As for whether you will or won't use Steam, iTunes, impulse or a.n.other digital delivery method, the reality of PC Gaming is that it is evolving in to digital delivery very rapidly. Buying your box down at the local game store is almost non-existant now. For physical boxes you are looking more to online shops, so the only real issues that are problems to digital delivery are speed and limit of download. Speed, isn't really a big issue as you will eventually get the download complete from any of the digital distributers. As for download limits, more of a problem (certainly in the UK) but not everywhere, and something that is being given serious consideration everywhere. So something that we should see reduced.

Given all of these, we as customers of a PC Game should be expecting to be asked to use digital distribution more and more. It is going to be the future whether we like it or not, so the next question is really which platforms. Personally, I think it is in everyones best interests to use as many of the different platforms as possible. However, not being a games producer, or publisher I don't know the details of the various costs associated with the different distributers. But I assume they're not too dissimilar to none digital distribution.

There lies the problem with a lot of the Fm community ; They are not by and large PC Gamers , I would think ( judging by the type of posts we get here) that most only play FM , and even then they are playing it on PC's that are either old or were bought for a family pc etc without gaming in mind.

It explains the really poor technical knowledge displayed and the moaning about installing 3rd party software( required or not).

Spot on. And I'm not just sucking up to you because you're a mod now SCIAG. (Congratulations btw!)

You mean you'd suck up to me anyway? :o

You mean you'd suck up to me anyway? :o

You and only you SCIAG.

Sounds like the argument boils down to this:

If you like Steam...use it.

If you don't like Steam, buy the game a different way. It is available through other distribution channels.

Seriously, this is like the argument people have about stuff they hate on televsion and forgetting they can just change the channel......

Steam is an option, not an absolute. People will complain about anything........

I just don't want it on my system. I've got no interest in having another application on my system while I'm running FM.

I hate having these sorts of programmes on my computer automatically starting up whenever I turn it on. I also feel like I lose control of where it installs the game and when it installs patches and so on and so forth. And I don't want to have them advertising games to me every time I just want to play FM. Essentially, I just can't see any benefit for me and just another piece of unwanted and bloated rubbish on my laptop.

I always want to have a boxed version of the game and I can never see myself purchasing via Steam. Plus, I don't want to authenticate (or whatever you call it) and access my game via Steam, which might not always be there to support FM in the future. I just can't find a single reason for me personally to use it.

What happened to the good old days when we could just put the CD in the drive, load the game and then off we went?

Steam does not automatically start when you start your computer.

You also have the option of playing in offline mode; you see no ads nor do you see the Steam control panel.

You never have to authenticate a game through Steam.

You can access your Steam games on any computer anywhere.

You will never lose, scratch or have stolen a Steam game.

You will also get manager achievements which are a fun little extra.

Steam offers lots of convenience and it offers tons of games at bargain basement prices. You can delete games off your HD at any time and reinstall whenever you want. Its really hard to find things not to like about Steam.

only problem i have with steam is random chat request by people who have been caught by phishing scams, and even then, its not an issue. i <3 steam

Sounds like the argument boils down to this:

If you like Steam...use it.

If you don't like Steam, buy the game a different way. It is available through other distribution channels.

Seriously, this is like the argument people have about stuff they hate on televsion and forgetting they can just change the channel......

Steam is an option, not an absolute. People will complain about anything........

It would have come to that, if it wasn't for the special treatment Steam users get.

SI can add the Achievements in the full game, they don't. SI can release the demo for everyone on the same date, they don't.

What's next? Steam users can buy FM 2012 a week before everyone else? Special new game features only for Steam users? Steam users getting a special bargain on prices, special new updates only available through Steam!?

Is that the future of FM?

there is one reason and one reason only SI would prefer you to use steam and that is : Anti Piracy

Steam does not automatically start when you start your computer.

You also have the option of playing in offline mode; you see no ads nor do you see the Steam control panel.You never have to authenticate a game through Steam.

You can access your Steam games on any computer anywhere.

You will never lose, scratch or have stolen a Steam game.

You will also get manager achievements which are a fun little extra.

Steam offers lots of convenience and it offers tons of games at bargain basement prices. You can delete games off your HD at any time and reinstall whenever you want. Its really hard to find things not to like about Steam.

I've tried really hard to ignore this thread but I can't any longer.

The bit I've bolded above is fine, except in the cases where it has ceased to work, leaving people (me and others on here) locked out of playing FM for varying lengths of time. You then have to go through the farce of dealing with their 'help desk' (this is the worst possible name for them because the last thing they are able to do is help) and waiting days on end for them to come back to you and say they don't know how to fix it. Back and forth for a couple of weeks and no FM for me, eventually Steam just gave up trying to help me. They are useless and as such are now not a company that will ever get my money or support.

With regards to this demo thing: I had my say in the release thread already but I really do take issue with the SI guys saying it was a Friday release just we were able to get it out through Steam on Thursday. What a load of rubbish, do I look like I was born yesterday, it was rushed through on Steam so that you could give the Mirror the exclusive midnight release of the demo. This to me is an insult to this community and shows the community being taken for granted. Not a good way to go. I know there is a very big split on steamers vs non steamers but when you look at the kind of people popping up in this thread (SCIAG, Crouchy and of course our honourable OP Jammy) then SI must realise that some of their true hardcore are being alienated. Whether they are so blaise to think its ok, those boys will buy any way, we'd much rather grab a noobs ££££'s, I don't think so, but it could look that way if you were cynical.

I know this comes across as rant at SI, but I would like to make it clear that I have the utmost respect for the job thats been done this year and every previous year. I just don't like the direction things seem to be heading in. Hopefully I'm wrong and we aren't all being pushed into some Steam uber alles world.

It would have come to that, if it wasn't for the special treatment Steam users get.

SI can add the Achievements in the full game, they don't. SI can release the demo for everyone on the same date, they don't.

What's next? Steam users can buy FM 2012 a week before everyone else? Special new game features only for Steam users? Steam users getting a special bargain on prices, special new updates only available through Steam!?

Is that the future of FM?

Well, actually when talking about the patching plans SI said:

There will also be some added extras for those people who install their game through Steam