The morality of cheating

This has become a debate I have kept to myself for some time now, but it has just spilled into a thread on the GPTM forum and think it maybe should be discussed.

Do you consider the dowloading of other players' tactics or training schedules to be cheating?

Obviously exploits of the match engine such as the much-discussed corner routine bug are giving you a large unfair advantage over AI teams (and other users, should you be playing on a network) and must be considered cheating, but are the use of other peoples' tactics morally wrong? Sure, it must lessen the satisfaction given for certain achievements, but is it really so bad?

If you learn from it and perhaps advance it yourself then It is not cheating. I'm sure real managers borrow ideas from one another (but would never admit it) I do however disagree with exploiting known bugs to further you chances of winning.

At the end of the day the game is designed for you to play how you want too. Myself I prefer to start with a lower team and create my own tactics and training schedules, it is not correct nor incorrect just the way I play.

i downloaded tactics for the first 6 months of playing. after i gained experience from testing them and getting an idea of the nuances i created my own.

as for training schedules, i could never understand the details behind it so i just gave up. i'm spending too much time on this game as it is, at least dats wut my GF says.

maybe it is considered cheating for the serious players.

but i never touched the editor though.

I do not consider downloading tactics or training to be cheating at all. I have a few games where I have created my own and a couple of others where I have used one my mate sent to me. At the end of the day people should just play the game as they want to, I mean the game allows us to download tactics and import them into our game. It can provide users with winning tactics or give them an insight into how to build one themselves.

Surely being on a forum that reveals every -9 PA player on the game, names great players we would not have heard of if we hadn't used the forum and discusses 100's of wicked youngsters showing how they develop is just as much cheating as downloading a tactic is. Just play the game the way you want and ignore people who think what you do is cheating.

The way I see it, as FM is (for the most part) a single player game, you decide yourself what is cheating and what isn't.

I have downloaded tactics in the past (FM08 iirc) to, like you say, educate myself further in certain aspects of the tactical setup. I have considered downloading training schedules for the same reason, but as my own schedules do the job to a decent enough degree, I have put off the idea and quite probably don't need to.

It's just something I have always been undecided on, whether using other peoples' setups is cheating, and why. However, as I said, it spilled into the GPTG forum and everybody seemed to have an opinion. Although I may not partake in such activity, I don't consider it cheating. Should somebody decide to, that's their choice, and even on a multiplayer game it's not something that would give you a completely unfair and hugely overcoming advantage, I'm sure there are ways to defend and counter against the best user-created tactics out there. If not, then it must be considered an exploit. As an example, Darlington wouldn't beat Chelsea through the use of tactics alone. They may beat them once, but that they could beat teams 3 levels above them consistently is making the game unrealistic and must be exploiting bugs of some kind in the match engine.

I think the ultimate question is... where do you draw the line?

For me, downloading someone elses tactics would be considered cheating..I just wouldnt have the same self satisfaction of winning if it wasnt with my own made tactic, same goes for training schedules..But each to their own i guess..

The way I see it, as FM is (for the most part) a single player game, you decide yourself what is cheating and what isn't.

Exactly, there is no "morality" to it as you aren't harming anyone.

Downloading other tactics certainly isn't cheating if using GPTG isn't, as tactics are much more personal than players.

I agree with Neji.

To expand my own view, I don't think there's a morality issue here.

If I download super-tactic "X" and also use the corner cheat routine, leading Blyth Spartans to domestic, European and Global domination, this has only happened in my computer. No-one else has lost out or been beaten unfairly because of my actions. I think the morality issue only comes in when other players are involved e.g. in challenges, FML etc - then, such methods are certainly immoral.

Whether you're getting the best out of the game yourself is another matter of course but that can also depend on the reasons why you do certain things. For example, are you downloading a tactic just to "win" by playing it every fixture? Or, will you study it, learn from it, and then take the knowledge from that to have the confidence to design your own tactics?

To be honest even this forum, I consider it cheating

why? because you already know what is going to happen, that Player X has the potential 199 and he is going to reach it or be close to it in year 20xx, and you find out what happenes in others games in the future, what players develop, a thing that you cannot do in real life

but don't get me wrong I read often the forums

and I cheat every day, and I do not feel bad about it, this is a game, it is not real life

True, I do fully concur that cheating without a victim cannot be considered immoral, maybe that's my fault for a poor choice of words. It's just that when it was mentioned that somebody used tactics that they had downloaded and were struggling to get somebody to perform within those tactics, the thread all but exploded into people ridiculing him for doing so. I said myself on the thread, it's his choice and he's well within the right to do so, and that his questions deserve to be answered just the same as everybody else's. It certainly didn't seem like everybody agreed.

As i have said many times before, cheating is doing something that you wouldn't be able to in real life football.

for example:

downloading or copying tactics is not cheating because many managers in real life do it!

using the genie scout only for scouting purposes is not cheating as the scouting system of the game sucks and in real life scouts know many more things for the players .

etc etc

Im so bad at making tactics that if i didnt download someone elses then id never achieve anything! I even managed to finished 9th with Man Utd one season using a tactic i created! Terrible! And i like to think i know about football! haha

As has been said often- once you buy the game it is your chopice how you play it and get the most enjoyment out of it. The only issues arise if you come onto the forums and boast about something after using an editor etc.

They give you the option to import tactics and training schedules, therefore I don't consider it cheating. Using editors/Genie/FMRTE to give yourself an advantage is. However it's your game to play as you like but don't go bragging about any achievements gained through using such tools.

The way I see it, as FM is (for the most part) a single player game, you decide yourself what is cheating and what isn't.

And to take it further, after deciding on what is cheating and what isn't you are still free to decide on whether to do it or not, irrespective of the answer to the first question.

I simply fail to see the point or relevance of any such discussion. Why can't we just be tolerant enough to let people play the game as they like it and at the same time refrain from bragging after achieving something with a Ferrari in a tractor race?

Honestly, who cares if some people on a discussion board think doing X or Y is cheating?

It's a game...

Why being so anal about "cheating" and about "morality"?

Some people enjoy a difficult challenge and go out of their way to make it EVEN MORE difficult, some others just want to have half an hour of fun in a different football universe, so who are we to tell them "you're getting it all wrong!"

Sure I don't see much point in winning trophies after massive tampering with the database [be it with SI Editor one or FMRTE], but starting to debate about tactics, training schedules etc is pushing it too far in terms of "cheating police"

If I'm not keen on spending hours of game time to develop my own asymmetric 3-4-3 tactic, or the holy grail of training schedule, because, say, I don't find that funny, or I don't actually want to turn a moment of GAMING into some sort of part-time job, why should I get chastised for that by the elitists who themselves have fun with slider-tweaking and beta-testing?

because not everyone can accept that. when someone has taken over portsoumth, used the fmrte and "bought" kaka, ronadlo and rooney and then comes here and brags that he is the best manager etc, then many people gets angry with that

because not everyone can accept that. when someone has taken over portsoumth, used the fmrte and "bought" kaka, ronadlo and rooney and then comes here and brags that he is the best manager etc, then many people gets angry with that

But that's a very extreme example, and it doesn't happen every day.

And even if it we had people bragging about such wins on a daily basis, who cares anyway?

If they have fun that way, so be it... Does their "achievements" belittle the work of the Tactical Maestros or the brilliant careers of LLM Gurus?

Honestly it's like a college student getting mad at his 4th grade cousin for getting an A after having "borrowed" some of his work...

because not everyone can accept that. when someone has taken over portsoumth, used the fmrte and "bought" kaka, ronadlo and rooney and then comes here and brags that he is the best manager etc, then many people gets angry with that

And rightfully so.

This is as bad as the anal cheating police of course.

If people have more fun playing the game this way, then fair enough. But bragging about success is then something they should not do.

Still, I find it easier to simply ignore those idiots who still do it than to bear with an everpresent cheating police that will throw around accusations to anyone who has achieved anything. Best is to ignore both of those as good as possible.

It isn't cheating but it's a lot less satisfying.

The "super tactics" bear little resemblance to real life and are basically a series of exploits (IMO) Although I do admire the people who put the work into testing them out.

For me, there needs to be some degree of realism.

In terms of tactics I think there are some things worse than others.

I have no issue to download a bog-standard 4-4-2 with just a few reasonable settings made. That's something I could easily do myself and it just saves a bit of hassle.

However, downloading a tactic that uses an exploit or a formation with which you wouldn't come up yourself and that is known to achieve excellent results like winning EPL with Tottenham, Villa or Everton in season 1 would be cheating in my books.

But as I said, that wouldn't stop me from doing it if I felt like it and I would never have a go at anyone else doing that, unless they come on here to be praised for taking Plymouth to the title in 2 years.

I think it's realistic to have a look at what works for other managers and then adopt it for your own team. So Cheating ? No.

I'm not trying to be a cheat policeman whatsoever, if somebody wants to create a squad of the 18 best players in the world and win everything they possibly can with them, that's entirely up to them. Even if they came on here bragging, rather than slate them for doing so, I'd merely try to discuss why they selected the players that they did or what tactical instructions they were given. My issue is this...

Somebody asked why Lukaku wasn't performing in Mr. Hough's 10.3 tactic. The immediate answer was that 'maybe Lukaku doesn't like people who download tactics'. I did think this was funny, but maybe it could have been left at that. Instead, people all went into a discussion on how downloading tactics and training schedules was or wasn't cheating, to what degree, and why, before attempting to answer the user's question. I just wanted another place to discuss such issues so that the Romelu Lukaku thread could be used for discussing- Romelu Lukaku.

Now as I have said, on a single player game, people can do whatever they please and it wouldn't be bother me at all. Even bragging about it wouldn't annoy me unless they are claiming to be the better manager thanks to their achievements. It's only when such things (particularly corner bugs) spill onto multiplayer games that I consider it cheating.

I don't think using other people's tactics is cheating unless those tactics contain a match-engine breaking "super tactic" such as the afore-mentioned corner exploit. IRL, if the manager of Grimbsy watches Barcelona play 10 games then sets up his team to do the same against Wrexham in the FA Cup, he's not cheating, is he?

It's only really cheating if you use things like FMRTE to up your finances or seek out the highest PA 16 year-olds, that sort of thing. But if you want to do that, I don't care, so long as you aren't on the forums bragging about the achievement.

One train of thought, of course, is whether the good player guide is cheating. If you know that signing that 16 year old Romanian striker for £75k means he'll be knocking in 30 per season by the age of 18, then it's a minor cheat, IMO, but not one you can help having knowledge about. Espeically if you've seen how good he is on a previous save.

I don't think using other people's tactics is cheating unless those tactics contain a match-engine breaking "super tactic" such as the afore-mentioned corner exploit. IRL, if the manager of Grimbsy watches Barcelona play 10 games then sets up his team to do the same against Wrexham in the FA Cup, he's not cheating, is he?

tbh the Grimsby players would however fail miserably in trying to employ those

Downloading the Diablo tactic on an older version (was it 03/04?) definitely was cheating!

To the OP:

Define "cheating" first, then we'll talk about it.

To elucidate:

Let's take the game of golf. Suppose I go out one afternoon all by myself and I play some golf. On the third hole, my ball gets stuck in a rut between some grass tufts, making it very difficult to hit a quality shot. I move the ball out of the rut and proceed to play the shot, landing the ball on the green and rolling it up next to the hole. I proceed to putt it in, having swung the club three times on the par-4 hole.

Have I "cheated?"

If you define cheating as "breaking the rules", then yes, I have "cheated." I have violated the rules as established by the USGA/R&A by improving my lie. I am subject to a penalty for having done so according to the rules.

If you define "cheating" as "gaining an unfair advantage", then no, I have not "cheated." After all, over whom is the advantage being gained? I'm just out enjoying myself and no one else is affected by my actions. If I want to think of myself as having birdied the hole, that's up to me, though obviously, in the long run, I'd be a much better golfer if I didn't do things like this and learned how to overcome bad lies (or stay out of them in the first place!).

Now, obviously, if I go on to finish the round, and post a score for handicaping counting the hole as having been a 3, then yes, now I am "cheating" by any definition of the word.

But let's suppose I am playing with my friends. We have an agreement among our group that, if you hit the ball out of bounds, instead of replaying from the place you hit the ball out, you go to where the ball crossed the course boundary and drop a ball and play from there with a one-stroke penalty (as if the boundary were a lateral water hazard). Are we "cheating?"

As long as the competition stays among ourselves, then no, we are not "cheating." After all, we can play by whatever rules we want; it's up to us to decide. No one is gaining an unfair advantage, because we think it's perfectly fair (and it helps speed up play).

But again, if we play by that rule, then post the scores for handicap, maybe the question has to be answered differently. And, of course, if I play a round where I use this "house" rule three times, then brag in the clubhouse about having just broken 80 for the first time, I'm on some shaky ground, though the word "cheated" would be difficult to apply, I think.

So until you define what you mean by "cheating", it's silly to discuss the morality of what a player does.

i always download training i can never get my head round it i made my own tatics but none were amazing downloaded a amazing one off here but got bord seem as it wasnt mine so had another crack at my own using somoneelses formation and how they set up there forwards but keeper defenders midfielders i changed them tatics all together so i felt it was mine

i did find it cheating when peopel download a tatic then want to knwo what players to buy then the team talks and so on so on

From the standpoint of the Tactics & Training Tips forum, we decided to isolate the "corner routine" exploit into its own thread. We then requested that when people share tactics, they don't include said "corner routine". Any threads we found that contained the "corner routine" were closed or merged with the individual thread, where people could discuss it to their heart's content.

Why? Because anyone looking to try different tactics, would not know if the core tactic itself was actually any good without the "corner routine".

Simply put, it's entirely up to the individual how they play their game. When it comes to sharing tactics or "bragging" about success on the forum, I think the majority of forum users would prefer truth and honesty. There's nothing to be ashamed of. If people prefer to play the game by using exploits, third party application aids or "cheats", that's fine. Not everyone does though and shouldn't have them rammed down their throats.

Downloading tactics, sharing information about players, reading guides, are all good ways to learn to play the game and shouldn't be knocked.

To the OP:

Define "cheating" first, then we'll talk about it.

To elucidate:

Let's take the game of golf. Suppose I go out one afternoon all by myself and I play some golf. On the third hole, my ball gets stuck in a rut between some grass tufts, making it very difficult to hit a quality shot. I move the ball out of the rut and proceed to play the shot, landing the ball on the green and rolling it up next to the hole. I proceed to putt it in, having swung the club three times on the par-4 hole.

Have I "cheated?"

If you define cheating as "breaking the rules", then yes, I have "cheated." I have violated the rules as established by the USGA/R&A by improving my lie. I am subject to a penalty for having done so according to the rules.

If you define "cheating" as "gaining an unfair advantage", then no, I have not "cheated." After all, over whom is the advantage being gained? I'm just out enjoying myself and no one else is affected by my actions. If I want to think of myself as having birdied the hole, that's up to me, though obviously, in the long run, I'd be a much better golfer if I didn't do things like this and learned how to overcome bad lies (or stay out of them in the first place!).

Now, obviously, if I go on to finish the round, and post a score for handicaping counting the hole as having been a 3, then yes, now I am "cheating" by any definition of the word.

But let's suppose I am playing with my friends. We have an agreement among our group that, if you hit the ball out of bounds, instead of replaying from the place you hit the ball out, you go to where the ball crossed the course boundary and drop a ball and play from there with a one-stroke penalty (as if the boundary were a lateral water hazard). Are we "cheating?"

As long as the competition stays among ourselves, then no, we are not "cheating." After all, we can play by whatever rules we want; it's up to us to decide. No one is gaining an unfair advantage, because we think it's perfectly fair (and it helps speed up play).

But again, if we play by that rule, then post the scores for handicap, maybe the question has to be answered differently. And, of course, if I play a round where I use this "house" rule three times, then brag in the clubhouse about having just broken 80 for the first time, I'm on some shaky ground, though the word "cheated" would be difficult to apply, I think.

So until you define what you mean by "cheating", it's silly to discuss the morality of what a player does.

Well, as I have said, I admit to a poor choice of words in the title and the OP. It's the definition of cheating and what different users would regard as cheating that I'd like to discuss. I'd just like to know what you guys think on the matter. I was simply discussing the use of downloaded tactics and training schedules at first, but a more interesting angle has been brought about, in the use of hindsight, or 'foreseeing' what players can achieve given the right guidance. There is only one player that springs immediately to mind that I would still not have heard of had I not checked these forums, but it's not like I buy him on every save I play on. Furthermore it was mentioned that if you have an advanced save a few years into the future, this knowledge cannot be helped. I remember FM07, I saw Fulham buy Balazs Dzsudzsak for next to nothing and he became amazing. Next time I started a new game I bought him based on this knowledge. Now I concur that this may be seen as cheating, but there's little I can do about it now, and it wasn't as if I could have deliberately forgotten the knowledge I had gained from watching that cheap-as-chips player tearing up a top division.

I do not download training schedules or tactics, although I do not consider doing so cheating. Editing the database or manipulation of the match engine must be considered cheating, unless the editing of the DB is for realism purposes only, such as transfer updates etc. 'Hindsight' as I have called it, cannot be helped unless you only play one save per FM release or patch, which is ludicrous.

I don't believe morality can be brought into the discussion any more for reasons that have already been laid out. If it's a single-player game, you are not gaining an advantage over anybod else and therefore I don't believe it cannot be considered immoral. I apologise again for my use of words in the OP.

I don't think others downloading tactics is cheating, I just think it's cheap and ruins any point to the game.

I think it's worth pointing out that this is a game.

We all play it in our own way, and we're all (hopefully) playing it for ourselves, for our own amusement. The priority is enjoying what you do. Some people, like myself, love knowing the CA and PA of players, and so on so forth. However, when managing teams in lower divisions, that doesn't interest me much at all, for the simple reason that those high PA players I look for aren't going to benefit me in any real way. Of course, sometimes I'll just do an Arsenal, and start hoarding young talent. It's fun too. I know many would say it's a cheap way of playing (both morally and actually) but it's not something that bothers me especially.

Relating to tactics, I've always found I've a hit and miss approach to tactics. I've been known to get frustrated and download other tactics when mine seem doomed to failure. I do, as a matter of habit, try and find a tactic better suited to the one I was already using. As an example, during one game as United, I was having success with a 4-4-2 (won the League and a Champions League final in my first season) but I found it an unsatisfying way of playing, and didn't seem to be getting hte most out of my side, so I downloaded a different 4-4-2 that operated similarly to mine, and essentially created a hybrid of the two which was more to my tastes. Again, perhaps that is cheating, but it improved my own enjoyment of the game.

Trilo, I think that the point is that, so long as the game remains an individual endeavor, who cares WHAT you do? In this respect, it's perhaps instructive to think of the software much as the inventors of The Sims describe their "game": as a toy, not a game. So with this game. If your interest is to see what you can accomplish within the "rules" of the game, then you should limit yourself to what the game provides. If your interest is to see what you can accomplish with the game, given any external aids you can lay your hands on, then by all means, use them. If your interest is to see what the game will do if you accomplish a certain task, then manipulate the game to make the task happen, then see what results.

So, if as an individual you use save/reload to promote your team, so that you can see what sort of budget will result the next year upon promotion, and who you can manage to buy in the way of players, what's wrong with that? Of course, if you S/R your way from Blue Square South to winner of the Champion's League in the minimum time possible, and then run off to brag to people about your accomplishment, most people will roll their eyes and ignore your "accomplishment;" some others might treat you with perhaps understandable contempt.

Now, if you're part of a multi-player experience, then it's up to the multi-player group to decide what's acceptable and what's not. If they determine that using a player search engine on the database to mine players is ok, that's up to them. If they decide you shouldn't use anything but the information accessible through the game's engine itself, then that's equally ok. It's up to you, then, to keep to the "rules" of the group. If you can't do that, then you will have some issues with anyone in the group who finds out. I'd like to think people I play games with online understand that you shouldn't do something "wrong" even if you'll never get caught.

As a result, I don't think there can be consensus on the issue.

personally i always use my own tactics, but sometimes use ideas and theories from others on the forums who post. i must admit that, if i just turn on and lose home to hull or wolves, i may be tempted to restart the game but im not proud of it by any means. other than that i dont use any bugs or take advantage of anything else is all or mostly my own work

Trilo, I think that the point is that, so long as the game remains an individual endeavor, who cares WHAT you do?

The entire point of me starting this thread has been explained. Somebody got grief from 3 or 4 others for mentioning that he downloads tactics, then the thread burst into a debate about whether such activity is cheating, so obviously some people do care! He wasn't bragging in the slightest, he just asked the best way to play 'Player X' in 'downloaded tactic Y', and found himself on the receiving end of quite a bit of criticism.

That's my point, I'd rather people discussed the matter here, rather than ridicule users simply asking innocent questions in the correct places.

When I play the game I do try to create my own tactics, but as people that create mods (in essence for me still a mod) will at least reference other peoples work. I would imagine that many would use Mr Hough as a very good starting point. In my mind it could only be considered cheating if you are playing another Human that does not have the tactics loaded. As most gamers do run a session with all using the same mods, it is not cheating.

The Dbase issue with FMRTE and Genie, using them is cheating due to being a real time environment. Boosting PA's to ridicules amounts is not cheating but just plain stupid when utilised in the offline editor. Guess when the question of morals is posed, is it any different when you just use the above posts content yourself? Or is that just what players, including myself, use to justify the use of files that are not original in that sense. Use against someone else (RT Stuff) and not say then obviously that is cheating. Editing files and some such, is not cheating per se for me, but is against the original spirit of the game and all the hard work put in by SI. For me that is where the morals come in.

Yeah, I have questioned some of the decisions the researchers have made, but I do not change anything they have put into the default database, other than transfers (Just put James Perch and Dan Gosling onto the Newcastle team, started a long term save and then we sign Sol Campbell... grrrr..). I won't go into what I disagree with regarding player attributes, but at the end of the day, the researchers know a lot more than me and have most possibly watched these players a heck of a lot more closely than I have.

I see no harm in downloading tactics, but yes, it MUST take some kind of satisfaction away from playing the game. On the other hand, some people have already mentioned how they completely fail to understand the tactical setup and would never achieve any kind of success without downloading some outside help.

Knowing players' potential cannot be helped in some cases, but the GPTG forum has opened my eyes to the odd player or two, and in a lot of cases I have been undecided on a purchase and the forum has made up my mind. I discuss with a friend how our players are performing and which purchases we have made and whether they were worth the fee and wages we pay. I'd never refrain from doing this as it makes for good and interesting conversation. Surely using the forum is just an extended network of people doing this... and it must be highly debatable whether this could be considered giving an unfair advantage, especially whether it could be considered cheating.

Yeah agree, the forums on whatever site have the same aim, inform and satisfy the players that want to know the gossip, just like the footballing world that we mortals don't get to see. There always be the odd occasion where someone wants to share that info on a discovery, but I guess for want of a better term, spoils it. Without the forums the game would slow to a crawl for me with having to do all the legwork with the AI. At least the knowledge on PA is usually hidden by the majority of users that I experienced on forums. Part of a reason why I think all players should have random PA, or maybe an option for this that could be pre loaded.

Expanding on my former. The tactical element is quite difficult as it appears, but once the confidence to delve into it on an individual basis, it becomes your friend. I do think though that some peeps that I have seen make no attempt to learn it, but those that need a pick me up on it, downloading a tactic is logical and a very sensible thing to do

I tend not to look at a player's PA unless I already have him at my team. If I am interested in him but don't know whether to sign, I listen to opinion without seeking knowledge of the specifics.

I only decide against downloading tactics because my methods get results. Decide the formation on the best players available (within reason, of course), choose player roles that best serve the players' best attributes and PPMs. Throw in a couple of personally preferred rules (in a 2 striker formation, for example, play one in support, or as a kind of 'playmaker forward' to some effect, full-backs always support, etc...) and there you go. I have seen massive success with this technique and it seems like the most obvious route to take.

If somebody is REALLY struggling (a run of 20 games without a win with a team of, say, Chelsea or Man Utd's stature), then seek help. Find advice on how to play your team, or download a tactic and adjust it accordingly to fit your best players. It's not cheating, it's learning how to play the game.

If somebody downloads a tactic and wins the Premier League with the likes of Darlington within 4 years, there is some kind of exploit within at least something they are doing. This must be considered cheating.

If somebody downloads a tactic and wins the Premier League with the likes of Darlington within 4 years, there is some kind of exploit within at least something they are doing. This must be considered cheating.

The main exploit used would be the Data Editor. Of course there will be those whom decide to give their club x amount of money or give themselves players. Agree with your point on exploiting the bugs if it is completely intentional as being cheating. At least be considered cheating. It is all a mute point really as long as the Editor is included. It is too easy for some players to glorify their success, but leaving it a season or two and brag about how well they have done. "Where did you get the money from?" "Oh, I had a take over" I just find that irritating, braggers irritate anyway, but if earnt, I tolerate it.

Cheating only makes sense in the context of rules (implicit or explicit). Some real life examples:

Henry handballing is cheating since there are explicit rules about using hands in football.

Sleeping with someone else when you're in a relationship is cheating since there are, at least, implicit rules about monogamy.

Darren Ferguson asking his father for successful tactics is not cheating since there are no rules about any manager copying the tactics of another manager.

Me asking my friend what's the best dish at his favourite restaurant and then me ordering it is not cheating since there are no rules about copying someone else's order.

You're playing a game by yourself. The rules are defined purely by you. If you allow the downloading of tactics then you're not cheating. If you don't allow the downloading of tactics then you are cheating.

On some of the other issues people have talked about. Finding in a forum which players are good isn't that different to asking some footballing experts who they think are bright talents. If Arsene Wenger signed a player because a friend of his told him that player is going to be great, no-one says Arsene Wenger or Arsenal has cheated.

Yeah, I think it's all boiling down to bragging about success that was ill-gotten, so to speak. I'm not a fan of bragging either, but at the end of the day I'm nearly always Newcastle United and at least 60-70% games I have started have resulted in my team being bought out by a very wealthy and generous businessman or consortium. This does take some sense of acievement away from me, but keeping team spirit balanced is a different kind of challenge...

I may have just been lucky, but it suits me.

Yeah, both of you make very good points. I suppose in a way this situation has become rather ambiguous. That it is so difficult to actually say what is and what is not, it seems to have constant shift in emphasis, so as the following. Is using FMRTE cheating, I would say yes, but what a dbase update. This where you change stats to what you believe is accurate. Some would say yes, but some would say no due to accuracy of the original. For me the answer is ever revolving.

What do people define as cheating?

-For some it seems to include doing something that wouldn't happen in the real world. That's not a measure of cheating because the game allows you and everyone else to do it. Just playing with less features in an unrealistic game does not make one a paragon of virtue.

-For some it seems to involve other peoples hard-gotten work. But this throws out two problems - whose tactic is truely original. Who hasn't shaved parts off their teams or others real-life tactics. Who has created their tactics independent of sliders and set-choices. If people are sharing them then so what and if Man U are successful in real life then teams try to emulate them, if Joe_Bloggs2010 is successful why shouldn't I be allowed to emulate him. Because it's not real life; see point 1.

-Then for others there is intentional misleading of the AI, and this is probavbly as close at it gets to cheating. FMRTE etc. all these things do alter the game in substantial ways. But are they really cheating. I'm not so sure beacause it's an already fictional, sandbox simulation of real life. Changing the boundaries isn't truely cheating - just like if I did my budgets and simulated an income of 1 million euros. I know it's not real. This leads on to the crux of the argument though:

Unless people follow a more or less fluid, but existant, set of rule then games are not intercomparable. You can use FMRTE to see what it's like to have a 200000-seater stadium but it means you can't compare the game on the same terms. Playing the game normally without outside help (including reloading) are the only boundaries we can truely know and deviating from them makes your game incomparable. People call this cheating - but it has the wrong intonation. There is nothing good about playing the game how it is given to you, or realisticically. It is only worth it if you ENJOY the game. Cheating seems to suggest that some are morally superior but if you need that kind of reassurance or are desperate to put people down then you're doing something wrong.

What do people define as cheating?

-For some it seems to include doing something that wouldn't happen in the real world. That's not a measure of cheating because the game allows you and everyone else to do it. Just playing with less features in an unrealistic game does not make one a paragon of virtue.

-For some it seems to involve other peoples hard-gotten work. But this throws out two problems - whose tactic is truely original. Who hasn't shaved parts off their teams or others real-life tactics. Who has created their tactics independent of sliders and set-choices. If people are sharing them then so what and if Man U are successful in real life then teams try to emulate them, if Joe_Bloggs2010 is successful why shouldn't I be allowed to emulate him. Because it's not real life; see point 1.

-Then for others there is intentional misleading of the AI, and this is probavbly as close at it gets to cheating. FMRTE etc. all these things do alter the game in substantial ways. But are they really cheating. I'm not so sure beacause it's an already fictional, sandbox simulation of real life. Changing the boundaries isn't truely cheating - just like if I did my budgets and simulated an income of 1 million euros. I know it's not real. This leads on to the crux of the argument though:

Unless people follow a more or less fluid, but existant, set of rule then games are not intercomparable. You can use FMRTE to see what it's like to have a 200000-seater stadium but it means you can't compare the game on the same terms. Playing the game normally without outside help (including reloading) are the only boundaries we can truely know and deviating from them makes your game incomparable. People call this cheating - but it has the wrong intonation. There is nothing good about playing the game how it is given to you, or realisticically. It is only worth it if you ENJOY the game. Cheating seems to suggest that some are morally superior but if you need that kind of reassurance or are desperate to put people down then you're doing something wrong.

This has wrapped this one up for me. The entire discussion, in my eyes, is simply completed by this post. If somebody edits the DB, they aren't exactly cheating, but they cannot compare their achievements to those of others who have not done the same. The same goes to people using outside help, reloading, exploiting the match engine, everything. You can only 'brag', or compare achievements to other peoples', if they have done the same as you.

Thankyou very much for solving the issue in my head BathPalace, but by all means, continue to discuss, as this has raised some interesting differences of opinion and people have raised some remarkable points.