George Graham Posted May 5, 2008 Author Share Posted May 5, 2008 Seriously losing any respect for the 2D engine when you see things like this. Just had a ball chase where Ben Arfa given a couple of yards start got beaten to the ball by Tony Kane. Ben Arfa Acceleration 18 Pace 15 Determination 15 Anticipation 15 Stamina 14 Natural Fitness 14 Condition 95% Moral Superb Tony Kane Acceleration 13 Pace 12 Determination 14 Anticipation 12 Stamina 15 Natural Fitness 15 Condition 90% Morale Good How can we trust the match engine when such things occur when one player is so clearly superior in the speed dept. The same happens in my benefit too as D'Allessandro who I bought as a slowish playmaker due to lack of pace is actually now a mean winger as the 2D seems to bless him with pace to beat the quickest fullbacks, which is why Ive started to keep an eye on this. I wonder how many other things happen in the engine that do not properly reflect players attributes? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Graham Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 Seriously losing any respect for the 2D engine when you see things like this. Just had a ball chase where Ben Arfa given a couple of yards start got beaten to the ball by Tony Kane. Ben Arfa Acceleration 18 Pace 15 Determination 15 Anticipation 15 Stamina 14 Natural Fitness 14 Condition 95% Moral Superb Tony Kane Acceleration 13 Pace 12 Determination 14 Anticipation 12 Stamina 15 Natural Fitness 15 Condition 90% Morale Good How can we trust the match engine when such things occur when one player is so clearly superior in the speed dept. The same happens in my benefit too as D'Allessandro who I bought as a slowish playmaker due to lack of pace is actually now a mean winger as the 2D seems to bless him with pace to beat the quickest fullbacks, which is why Ive started to keep an eye on this. I wonder how many other things happen in the engine that do not properly reflect players attributes? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
STFC will rule again Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 Depends on the two players starting positions, Kane might have been in a better starting position to get to the ball first. Even in real life, the faster player doesn't always get to the ball first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurvivorSoso Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 maybe it's their fitness Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bongo-Bongo Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 IIRC, Ben Arfa's Work Rate is fairly low. I'm not saying this is the reason, but it's a possibility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheriffpatgarrett Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 the pace thing has been a problem for ages I reckon, since the start of 2d. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sheriffpatgarrett: the pace thing has been a problem for ages I reckon, since the start of 2d. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I think its more the case that the 2d doesn't give a good representation of the match engine at times. In the example above the engine had decided based on stats that Kane would reach the ball first but when translated to the 2d it looks wrong. Either Kane should have been represented closer to the ball or Arfa further away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcormack Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 for your D'Allesandro example it may be because he has a high dribbling attribute that he can go so fast with the the ball. if it is without the ball then i am stumped. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbokav1971 Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 Fitnmess. Determination. Workrate. Pace. Acceleration. Anticipation. Stamina. Morale. I think all of these areas impact on the example that you give but obviously it's impossible to say without seeing it. I must admit to thinking a similar thing myself on more than 1 occasion, but whenever I have been bothered to look there has usually been a reason for my player losing out. Where there hasn't been an obvious reason, I put it down to hidden attributes and a lack of hidden ability of my player. It's easier than doubting everything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
postal postie Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 i remember when the beta version of 2008 (or it could have been 2007) came out. the discrepancy between slow and fast players was enormous. fast players were completely out sprinting the slightly slower players and it was shocking to see. they toned it down for the full release. as for why some 'slower' players out run the faster players: balance stamina injuries work rate anticipation pace/acceleration current state of play (score line,who currently has had most possession etc) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie_G_32201 Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 just coming back to the forums after a long abscence! woooooooo it isnt always the fastest player who gets the ball first. pace is how fast the player CAN run if he wants to. not how fast he runs all the time. so this maybe the answer. he just didnt want the ball as much Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeeves Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 they seemed to have lessened the effect of speed in the 8.02 patch aswell, fast players had a much greater advantage in 8.01 and 8.00 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
backpackant Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 The 2D visual is just a representation of the match engine. Perhaps it's just in the translation. Or the other stats - such as concentration, anticipation, work rate, determination. Or the tempo of the match. Or perhaps Ben Arfa was looking around for team mates to pass the ball to. Or perhaps the AI cheats. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsonmcjones Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 It's your tactics... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakobx Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stevie_G_32201: just coming back to the forums after a long abscence! woooooooo it isnt always the fastest player who gets the ball first. pace is how fast the player CAN run if he wants to. not how fast he runs all the time. so this maybe the answer. he just didnt want the ball as much </div></BLOCKQUOTE> nah..i dont buy that. Thats just an excuse you made up to explain the match engines flaws. Its just buggy. Its as simple as that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
disasterd Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stevie_G_32201: just coming back to the forums after a long abscence! woooooooo it isnt always the fastest player who gets the ball first. pace is how fast the player CAN run if he wants to. not how fast he runs all the time. so this maybe the answer. he just didnt want the ball as much </div></BLOCKQUOTE> nah..i dont buy that. Thats just an excuse you made up to explain the match engines flaws. Its just buggy. Its as simple as that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL LOL LOL jakobx should be a comedian i like how didnt try to beat around the bush i think in this case jakobx is true and by the way pace is the top speed you can travel at and acceleration is how fast you reach that top speed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cice2 Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 The attacker needs to control the ball the defender just have to make sure the attacker cannot control the ball. If you play you know. Everyone missed out an important attribute, strength. Running in a straight line after a ball, the stronger one wins. How do John Terry keep his 100000/week job considering his speed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 Don't forget bravery - it's very important in situations like this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konnan511 Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cice2: How do John Terry keep his 100000/week job considering his speed? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> This one is toooo easy. I'd say he is either sleeping with the bosses daughter or he has some dirt on his boss Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robzig214 Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 Perhaps Arfa was facing the other direction and needed to turn around. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsonmcjones Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 Perhaps his leg fell off Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
disasterd Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 BUG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hershie Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by disasterd: BUG </div></BLOCKQUOTE> No. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsonmcjones Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 His leg definitely fell off. No doubt about it. But it could be a bug... ...leprosy maybe? Could be Ebola... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurkzZ Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 well in 2007 i belive fast players were vastly over rated as in, even a player like eddie johnson would score tonns of goals as he is fast and would always beat slower defndes. Even in real life the faster player does not always win as the decision where to make the run positioning your self for the run etc all comes into play, for example, John Terry is not a fst player at all means yet very realy do you see him being out paced for a ball. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowRonaldo Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 Maybe a streaker ran onto the field and grabbed Ben Arfa? 2D can't show everything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehex Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 It's cos Ben Arfa is a candyazz which is why I never buy him Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2goody Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 I had the problem when I was Hull City in FM08. I got Stephane Henchoz on a free for 08/09. He didn't have any pace really, and thus was represented as being absolutely awful. We all know, that at the Premier League level he would do ok, never mind the Championship level. So I never bought any slow, veteran defenders after that. Someone like Terry or Woodgate can mark even the fastest strikers out of a game, no matter how fast they are. Look how good David Weir has been for Rangers recently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
playmaker Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 I've spent the last two seasons watching an ageing Sol Campbell consistently beat faster players to the ball from worse starting positions. Pace is quite definitely not the only factor in beating an opponent to the ball. The attacking player will always have to slow a little to get control of the ball, which gives good defenders a window of opportunity to get a foot in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirdez24 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TurkzZ: Even in real life the faster player does not always win as the decision where to make the run positioning your self for the run etc all comes into play, for example, John Terry is not a fst player at all means yet very realy do you see him being out paced for a ball. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> That's all well and good, but what do you think happens when you try to play slow defenders against AI attackers? I had Arjan De Zeeuw second season in the BSP. 16-20 for positioning, anticipation, tackling, marking, concentration etc, but only 4 for pace. The end result was I couldn't even use him. In real life he'd murder that level just through an ability top read the play and position himself accordingly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dar2000 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Could Ben Arfa's 'condition' have dropped much lower than Kanes during the match? Same as fatique affects some players irl. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
postal postie Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sirdez24: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TurkzZ: Even in real life the faster player does not always win as the decision where to make the run positioning your self for the run etc all comes into play, for example, John Terry is not a fst player at all means yet very realy do you see him being out paced for a ball. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> That's all well and good, but what do you think happens when you try to play slow defenders against AI attackers? I had Arjan De Zeeuw second season in the BSP. 16-20 for positioning, anticipation, tackling, marking, concentration etc, but only 4 for pace. The end result was I couldn't even use him. In real life he'd murder that level just through an ability top read the play and position himself accordingly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> i take it then that you weren't playing arjan de zeeuw in a back line that was quite far up the pitch? as you dont want a slow player trying to play high up the pitch. on the other hand how old is de zeeuw? it could be the problem that players degrade too quickly when they get over 30 years old. carragher was terrible once he got to 32 in my game. couldn't even control a simple defnecive header without it ballooning off his forehead and into the path of a striker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genuine_quality Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 this is why you cannot understand somewtimes why your tactics are wrong or going wrong when a 35 year old defender with 3 for pace totally outpaces yopur 23 year old olympian god over 40 yards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirdez24 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie: i take it then that you weren't playing arjan de zeeuw in a back line that was quite far up the pitch? as you dont want a slow player trying to play high up the pitch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I had him in a deepish defensive line, but any long ball left him in no man's land as everyone just ran past him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
postal postie Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sirdez24: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie: i take it then that you weren't playing arjan de zeeuw in a back line that was quite far up the pitch? as you dont want a slow player trying to play high up the pitch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I had him in a deepish defensive line, but any long ball left him in no man's land as everyone just ran past him. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> did you have your midfield line very attacking? if there's a very defensive defence and a very attacking midfield then that leaves alot of space between the two lines. i usualy play a 442 but one of the CM's doesn't get forward. he just plays through balls. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonBlade Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Why do slower players outrun much quicker players? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Because SI use the Madden team to program the AI? Extra extra. Read all about it. Unexpected off-topic Madden bitterness in FM thread. Only 1% of the userbase nods in agreement. Extra extra. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
llama3 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 funny to see senderos outsprinting rooney to clear the ball on a serious note though i get ****ed off when walcott is beaten to the ball by some slow joke of a defender Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stomalomalus Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 OK, was sceptical about this until last night when my Daniel Alves was beaten by Florent Malouda! Now, I know the circumstances. Avles was facing the wrong way so had to turn, coupled with Maloudas acceleration of 17 gives him a head start, though Alves was slightly closer to goal. But then Maloudas pace is 15, and Alves' is 19! Yet he doesnt catch him up at all! I was expecting Malouda to streak away, then have to slow down when he got to the ball and was dribbling - surely his pace would then drop - and Alves to at least catch up enough to make a meaningful challenge, but no. Malouda maintains his distance and scum score! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
postal postie Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stomalomalus: OK, was sceptical about this until last night when my Daniel Alves was beaten by Florent Malouda! Now, I know the circumstances. Avles was facing the wrong way so had to turn, coupled with Maloudas acceleration of 17 gives him a head start, though Alves was slightly closer to goal. But then Maloudas pace is 15, and Alves' is 19! Yet he doesnt catch him up at all! I was expecting Malouda to streak away, then have to slow down when he got to the ball and was dribbling - surely his pace would then drop - and Alves to at least catch up enough to make a meaningful challenge, but no. Malouda maintains his distance and scum score! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> it's all about momentum surelY? malouda has the momentum which carries him forward. alves doesn't and also suffers the problem of being behind by a far distance when he finally gets involved in the race. players aren't robots. you cant tot up their stats and expect them to perform in a certain way. mentality and personality get in the way as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stomalomalus Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 Yeah, I expected Malouda to get a lead, but even if he didnt get a challenge in, I could expect Alves to catch up at least a little due to being faster and Malouda being in control of the ball and thus his dribbling stat would also come into play Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 I take that was Daniel Alves ? Kinda strange, since all his attributes that I could think having any impact are at least about even or way higher than Malouda's...Anticipation, Composure, Concentration, Decisions, Determination, Off the Ball, Positioning, Work Rate, Acceleration, Pace, Stamina, Strength. Any other I have missed that could affect situation like that (except "Vaughan BS"..present in every CM/FM from the start... ..meaning that if game thinks you should lose, it will subtract about 10 from your player's abilities..)... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stomalomalus Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 Yeah, I wouldnt have thought too much about it, its just that every attribute suggests that Alves should have at least shortened the gap to Malouda, but he didnt and Malouda was able to get in a cross unchallenged. Maybe the game just doesnt like shortarses Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty_ACE Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 Two days ago I witnessed one of my CBs who has pace and acceleration of 13 catch up to David Villa even though Villa seemed to have the momentum as he intercepted a pass. The CB caught up to him and knocked the ball away and left me quite surprised. I think it's the buggy, inaccurate representation we get in the 2-D view that's causing all these complaints. I think what may have happened is the CB was in fact deeper and had time to turn around and start sprinting before Villa could reach his full speed but the 2-D view showed it in a wrong way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSCCG Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 Speed should have a large effect as most sports do favour the faster players, hence the reason Riquelme was never as good as he should be. However that doesn't mean they should rule the game, in defense positioning would beat a fast attacker coming at them, and higher man marking would negate the effects of speed. i.e. Messi would always beat say Gary Neville to the ball but Gary Neville would most times be able to get into a defending position quickly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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