SI Staff Miles Jacobson Posted August 26, 2009 SI Staff Share Posted August 26, 2009 Now onto a subject a bit more controversial and emotive. Data capture. Most things that you do nowadays, certainly in the UK, involves some kind of data capture. Whether it be voting details per household, taxes, the health service, credit cards, loyalty schemes, your car, speed cameras, CCTV, a fishing license, the internet, email, your season ticket, buying tickets for a gig with a credit card, iTunes, forums, any online application, Xbox Live, Playstation network (I could go on for hours, so will stop now!) some sort of data is collected. Some companies just use this information for data capture and collection. Others use it to email their customers. I suspect some use it for “dodgy” means. We use the data to help us develop our games, and use the information to help us make decisions in a more informed manner. There are 3 types of data collected by FM09. What I’m going to write about here is what info is actually collected, and how we use this information. The first is the in game advertising in the game. As you know, the ad hoardings around the side of the pitch have changed a few times during the cycle of the game as advertisers have come to us with campaigns that they believe will appeal to our customers. Sometimes we agree and approve them, others we don’t, and reject them. For our partner in advertising (IGA) to be able to get people interested in advertising in the game, they collect data on how long people playing the game for see the adverts. All that is recorded is the country information from an IP address (so that they know which country the person is in) and how long they’ve viewed an ad hoarding for (in other words, how long they’ve been watching the 2d or 3d match engine). They don’t know who you are, or where you are apart from country, and certainly helps us and them target campaigns, as advertisers don’t tend to do global campaigns, but do them per country. Next up is STEAM. For those who installed the game using this system (for which you received automatic updates and the ability to play a game on any computer above minimum spec with no need to carry the DVD around with you) the only stats that they have collected and provided to me are stats on how many minutes people have played the game for and the amount of people playing the game via this system split down in total and per month. This is how we got the stat used previously that the average amount of time spent playing the game per user was 240 hours, although this has gone up since those figures were provided. What was also really interesting with the stats was seeing that the amount of time being played each month hasn’t dropped month by month despite much smaller sales at the latter times of year compared to release, which shows us that there are a lot of people out there really enjoying the game, and playing it for very long periods of time. Stats like these are invaluable to us as you can imagine, as it gives us a proper balance between the highs and lows of different types of feedback that we get from very small samples of people, such as the forums (which tend to be more negative, as people tend to talk mainly when they have a problem, which is human nature) or the people in the pub telling you how much they love the game (although if they really loved it, they’d be at home playing it, rather than in the pub!). STEAM do also store system stats for all of their users, and these are freely available for anyone to look at on their website. However, this information isn’t much use to us, as it shows a cross section of the PC gaming market itself, rather than the FM PC gaming population, which tend to have lower specs than the market as a whole. However, those kinds of stats are very useful to us for our own game when we’re going through the decision making process on the features we’re going to work on, particularly if there will be a hardware requirement from it, and this is where one of Uniloc’s systems has actually been very good for us. This system is pretty separate from their copy protection and authentication system, and collects information about your computer hardware specification. It doesn’t ask for, or store, any personal information at all – just information about the computer that is being used’s processor, graphics card, default screen resolution for playing the game in, OS language and operating system. As an example of how this information is useful to us, and what it’s used for – there have been a couple of posts on the forums recently asking why the minimum resolution for the game hasn’t changed to a higher resolution, seeing as all new computers being sold have the option for a higher resolution, or quoting STEAM stats. We’d even looked at it ourselves when we were working on the new interface and saying how it would be a lot easier to design if we had a new default of 1280 x 800 instead. However, when I then get a report done on the stats for people playing FM09, I can see that 32.94% of people play the game in 1024 x 768 and that makes the decision pretty easy, hence the minimum resolution has stayed the same. I really wish we’d had these stats before we launched 3d (FM2009 was the first time we’ve had stats like this), as we could have been much better prepared graphics card wise, and done a lot more compatibility testing before hand. The most used graphics card whilst playing the game only has 3.74% of users and the breadth of cards used was way bigger than we had imagined. – this time SEGA are ensuring that a lot more compatibility testing is performed on a much wider variation of graphics cards to try and ensure that we don’t have the same problems as we had last year, where some people had to download a huge file to get the game up and running, even in 2d. With FM2010, we plan to still be able to utilise each of these systems. It doesn’t matter what the copy protection decision from SEGA ends up being, as the Uniloc stats system is separate to their protection solution, so we can still utilise it, alongside a new system that we’ll be using to get some stats on certain areas of the game, and whether those areas are being used or not. If we’re able to see what areas of the game are proving popular, and which areas are ignored, it makes it a lot easier for us to make informed decisions and what areas need improvement or not, over and beyond that of the pubs and forums. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Bladesman Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Interesting stuff! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
javier_83 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 sigames spy us you can ask us for information jejeje Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhinocerous Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Super interesting read, thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Waddle Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I'd like to say many thanks for being so open an honest about what systems you are using an incorporating. There aren't many publishers that would be this open. Whilst I do applaud your honesty, I won't buy the game. As long as you incorporate these systems into the game without giving me the option of disabling them, or better still the option not to even install them, I won't buy the game. Yes, I can set up my firewall etc, to prevent this type of data collection, but that's saying that it's ok to build this stuff into the game. If you want the info, send me a form, I'll fill it in and send it back. I want to control what is collected and what is sent. I do not want remote data collection. Whilst you may use it in a way that you feel is acceptable, I don't feel it is. Why oh why make it compulsory? Give me the option and I will buy the game if I can say no, I don't want it installed. Is it so, so important to you to make it compulsory and lose sales? Oh well, it appears that I am destined never to play FM beyond the 08 version. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
damienroden Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Chris, there isn't anything they collect that could damage you in anyway. Do you not use any of the service he mentioned in his first few lines? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Miles Jacobson Posted August 26, 2009 Author SI Staff Share Posted August 26, 2009 I'd like to say many thanks for being so open an honest about what systems you are using an incorporating. There aren't many publishers that would be this open.Whilst I do applaud your honesty, I won't buy the game. As long as you incorporate these systems into the game without giving me the option of disabling them, or better still the option not to even install them, I won't buy the game. Yes, I can set up my firewall etc, to prevent this type of data collection, but that's saying that it's ok to build this stuff into the game. If you want the info, send me a form, I'll fill it in and send it back. I want to control what is collected and what is sent. I do not want remote data collection. Whilst you may use it in a way that you feel is acceptable, I don't feel it is. Why oh why make it compulsory? Give me the option and I will buy the game if I can say no, I don't want it installed. Is it so, so important to you to make it compulsory and lose sales? Oh well, it appears that I am destined never to play FM beyond the 08 version. Obviously, that's your decision and opinion, and I have to accept that even if it does make me sad. The stats are something new that we started with last year and they make a massive positive difference to us, we have no plans on taking them out. As they are part of the game, having an opt in or opt out are not an option (advertising hoardings are powered by the IGA software, hence you won't see a Spanish advert in a Conference game). I personally don't think the info we collect is instruive, and it's a lot less than many websites we all visit regularly. With the stance you have taken there, you probably shouldn't be on this site (or any others that have any kind of advertising) as similar info is collected to decide which ads to serve (ads on websites also tend to be on a country by country basis). Like it or not, it's just the way of the world nowadays. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmurfDude Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 If you're being honest and not hiding anything then I'm perfectly happy for that information to be collected, as it isn't any more intrusive than what most websites collect by using cookies and tracking your IP to determine where you live. At least I trust SI/SEGA with my IP information more than I do some random website. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indi75 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Thank's Miles, a truly interesting read. Personally I'm with Smurfdude on the subject. I've nothing to hide, and the info taken and used is no more intrusive, if not less intrusive, than that taken and shared by many websites and retailers. In light of some of the vitriol regarding copy-protection that's been thrown SI's way of late, it's intersting to see that the choice is ultimately that of SEGA rather than SI. Perhaps this year the pandemonium might be kept to a minimum. It'd be very interesting in some of the hardware stats could be shared with the community - might be useful for those building or buying a new machine with FM in mind. As you say, FM users oft have a lower spec than the average PC gaming community so an idea of what the community is using would be most informative. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
baker.simon Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 You know, i thought that was Miles i saw hiding in the bushes in my garden with his binoculars, i shall close my curtains from now on Honestly, as long as it helps to develop the game i couldnt give a rats whats collected about me. Its not like im up to anything dodgy...... apart from my panda smuggling ring but shhh, keep that quiet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilmatt Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 To play devil's advocate for a moment... Someone remind me, is 1024x768 the default resolution? If so, I wonder if that many people are using it simply because they don't know/care to increase it, as opposed to because they can't? I would say that the stats on the video cards being used would be a better lead on what minimum resolution should be chosen, to be honest. Although I imagine this would lead to the same decision anyway! My one wish for FM10 would be an optional widescreen skin to add a little more info on screens and space things nicer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Miles Jacobson Posted August 26, 2009 Author SI Staff Share Posted August 26, 2009 It'd be very interesting in some of the hardware stats could be shared with the community - might be useful for those building or buying a new machine with FM in mind. As you say, FM users oft have a lower spec than the average PC gaming community so an idea of what the community is using would be most informative. I think those looking to buy or build a new machine should always go for the best spec that they can afford - there are multi-core benefits to FM, good graphics cards benefits for FM, benefits with faster harddrives, and RAM amount and speed, so the specs that most users have wouldn't really be a good benchmark! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevgaleuk Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I think those looking to buy or build a new machine should always go for the best spec that they can afford - there are multi-core benefits to FM, good graphics cards benefits for FM, benefits with faster harddrives, and RAM amount and speed, so the specs that most users have wouldn't really be a good benchmark! I do find some of the anti data capture posts amusing; you could guarantee when reading the blog there was going to be a post saying they wouldn't buy the game - I bet you could have said you don't capture any info and the pre-programmed response would have been the same. Yes its a sensitive issue, yes everyone has an opinion but SI are more open than any other company I have come across and I work with data day in day out for a big insurance company. On the other topic around PC spec for the game I wonder whether Miles or someone at SI can say what spec a PC would allow the game to fly at full capacity? we all know minimum and recommended specs never tell the whole story and I appreciate SI may not be able to answer specifically for fear of putting off those with specs lower than ideal?!?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Miles Jacobson Posted August 26, 2009 Author SI Staff Share Posted August 26, 2009 Honestly, as long as it helps to develop the game i couldnt give a rats whats collected about me. Its not like im up to anything dodgy...... apart from my panda smuggling ring but shhh, keep that quiet I could do with borrowing a panda for a day or 2 - have a massive bamboo plant in the garden that could do with a large trim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tejaswi Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I know it's a potentially sensitive subject, but how much of this data, IP addresses in particular will you use for anti-piracy efforts? ( IP Address in particular gives more than just the country, there's been a lot of debate about how IP address uniquely identifying a user - Read: http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/07/08/1522247/Judge-Rules-IP-Addresses-Not-Personally-Identifiable?from=rss ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Miles Jacobson Posted August 26, 2009 Author SI Staff Share Posted August 26, 2009 I know it's a potentially sensitive subject, but how much of this data (IP Address in particular gives more than just the country) will you use for anti-piracy efforts? I don't understand the question - can you be more specific or give an example of what you mean? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herter Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Again a superb post - As a software-engineering student I think its a great way to get to peek into a software-house, even one like SI (p.s. do you have a job opening in, say 2 years? ) As for not buying the game because of this data gathering.. well then you should sell you iPod, drop your internet subscription, sell your mobile phone etcetc.. just about ALL things you use daily that are capable of sending information back, ARE sending information back to headquarters.. non-personal info only though;) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herter Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I don't understand the question - can you be more specific or give an example of what you mean? I guess what he means is will you use the IP address to track down people using pirated FM games.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leedsfan88 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Very interesting read and I also enjoyed the previous post about the process at which decisions are reached in the FM offices. But in terms of information gathering, i don't mind the games getting information about how i game or how my computer runs, as these can only aid in the betterment of the game. And for you people who are against the gathering of information, you shouldn't be using the internet as most sites will gather and store an awful lot more information than we'd ever be comfortable with. We i've send what i wanted, can't wait for more blogs keep them coming Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
baker.simon Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I guess what he means is will you use the IP address to track down people using pirated FM games.. Wouldnt that only work if pirated games were registerd and activated using the DRM though? I dont think that any pirated games would be registered TBH. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Miles Jacobson Posted August 26, 2009 Author SI Staff Share Posted August 26, 2009 I guess what he means is will you use the IP address to track down people using pirated FM games.. The option is there for SEGA to do that if they wanted to - it wouldn't be something we'd be doing as a developer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earmack Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Data collection is a breach of our rights to privacy but it goes hand in hand with using the internet so its not exactly a suprise that you've gone down this road. edit: the data being collected is absolutely acceptable to me, its not an issue that will stop me purchasing FM but I am wary of certain unscrupulous companies *cough EA cough* who are just as likely to install rootware as a game on your computer (meaning I will not buy any EA game that communicates over the internet). I think SI's biggest job with the release of FM10 will be making sure activation issues are resolved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swisso Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 If in-game advertising helps to generate revenue for SI, which in turn is ploughed in game development, then i've no objection with targetted advertising based on country of origin. The same for the technical specs of the users' system; no harm done if it can aid the development of FM. As long as we don't see a situation where it mirrors Phorm, or we see a specific regional/local advertising campaign like those pesky pop-ups on the web which can trace the IP down to the nearest town/city then i'm happy to keep on buying FM. I don't particulary want to see an advert for Delta Taxi's in Liverpool while i'm playing an FA Cup final Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinwow Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 32.94%! That figure is much bigger than I expected. Pretty much any monitor produced in the last few years has a native resolution above that I thought. Must be that people have their monitor on a lower than native resolution, or have older monitors or laptops. I presume if the game is being played in windowed mode it still counts and records the total desktop resolution rather than the windowed game resolution? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason24 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 If you turn your internet off when you play the game, would any data still be collected and sent? Just wondering if this could be a solution to those who are unhappy about data collection in the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Miles Jacobson Posted August 26, 2009 Author SI Staff Share Posted August 26, 2009 If you turn your internet off when you play the game, would any data still be collected and sent? Just wondering if this could be a solution to those who are unhappy about data collection in the game. Yes - but as has been pointed out above by others, if people are unhappy about the data collection, they likely shouldn't be online anyway Wouldnt that only work if pirated games were registerd and activated using the DRM though? No. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mseel82 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Miles, Thanks for this insight into how you collect and use data, i think it doesn't suprise any one how or why you do this. Pretty much every game does it now and i can see why this will help in future versions of he game. Being able to tell how many people play the news conferences or how many people ignore training ect would help you guys develop the game further. Just a quick question on piracy, you did say that you were hoping to release the figures with regard to having pirate versions of the game. Will you still be able to do this and if so any idea when?? I think the figures would be very interesting, especially when we hear today that ISP's may be told to disconnect people for downloading illegal games via P2P file sharing. Keep up the good work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indi75 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I think those looking to buy or build a new machine should always go for the best spec that they can afford - there are multi-core benefits to FM, good graphics cards benefits for FM, benefits with faster harddrives, and RAM amount and speed, so the specs that most users have wouldn't really be a good benchmark! I wasn't clear. What I'm getting at is that the availability of the data would allow people to see the high end specs and aim for similar builds. There's a lot of high end hardware out there and it's often useful to see what others are running at the high end in order to plan a build or purchase. Would be nice if our profile's on our posts had a drop down like many computing/hardware forums where you can see each others systems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Miles Jacobson Posted August 26, 2009 Author SI Staff Share Posted August 26, 2009 Just a quick question on piracy, you did say that you were hoping to release the figures with regard to having pirate versions of the game. Will you still be able to do this and if so any idea when?? I think the figures would be very interesting, especially when we hear today that ISP's may be told to disconnect people for downloading illegal games via P2P file sharing. Keep up the good work. From the blog about how we go about deciding new features. "There are going to be a few blogs this week (depending on whether some of them get permission to be posted or not!)" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mseel82 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 From the blog about how we go about deciding new features."There are going to be a few blogs this week (depending on whether some of them get permission to be posted or not!)" Well lets hope you get permission cause this is one that i am very interested in reading. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Hall Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I quite like this data collection tbh especially about the graphics card as I couldn't play FM09 due to graphics problems Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Waddle Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Obviously, that's your decision and opinion, and I have to accept that even if it does make me sad. The stats are something new that we started with last year and they make a massive positive difference to us, we have no plans on taking them out. As they are part of the game, having an opt in or opt out are not an option (advertising hoardings are powered by the IGA software, hence you won't see a Spanish advert in a Conference game). I personally don't think the info we collect is instruive, and it's a lot less than many websites we all visit regularly. With the stance you have taken there, you probably shouldn't be on this site (or any others that have any kind of advertising) as similar info is collected to decide which ads to serve (ads on websites also tend to be on a country by country basis). Like it or not, it's just the way of the world nowadays. I have no problem with you collecting stats, I have a problem in that I have no say in the fact. If I buy the game you will, against my wishes, collect stats. In the street I can walk by someone collecting stats, you do not give me an option. It is a free world and it should be my choice as to whether I decide to provide information or not. It is not right for you to just take that info. As far as I am concerned, what you do is tantermount to theft. I cannot play the game without you stealing this information. I am not giving you permission to collect this information. Sorry, I have just realised, I may have paid for this game, but I cannot install and play it, without accepting that you will steal this information. For those who think I might have something to hide, I don't. I have paid for every single piece of harware/software on my system. My hobby is building pc's, the one I am using now has cost way more than I care to think about. I'm not going to hide the fact, I can run IP hide software; I can block just about everything via firewalls etc, when I want to; not because I have something to hide, but because I don't want companies stealing my data. If SI want, they can get my IP from this post. I have nothing to hide. I am just disgusted that they think stealing personal data against my will is acceptable. Be honest, how many of you out there would appreciate people just walking into your house and watching you on a 24/7 basis? If it happened you'd call the police and get them arrested; at least thrown out. The intruders might say that what they are doing is just collecting data on how you live your life so that they can improve it for the future. Why should it be any different for my pc? It's mine! I don't wan't people invading it without my permission. Just because they can, it doesn't make it right. Since when has it become acceptable for personal information to be stolen? What you are doing is just one step away from say, stealing all of my on-line banking details (should I be so stupid to do that). If this is the way of pc gaming, then fine, I'll go forever without buying another game. I do not advocate ever, and have never downloaded a 'cracked' version of a game. The truth is, if game companies continue to persue this line of thought, I might. If I could consider it, then many thousands more will. Thanks for the great games of the past. As for your new one's, go shove 'em. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucho Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I have no problem with you collecting stats, I have a problem in that I have no say in the fact. If I buy the game you will, against my wishes, collect stats. In the street I can walk by someone collecting stats, you do not give me an option. It is a free world and it should be my choice as to whether I decide to provide information or not. It is not right for you to just take that info. As far as I am concerned, what you do is tantermount to theft. I cannot play the game without you stealing this information. I am not giving you permission to collect this information. Sorry, I have just realised, I may have paid for this game, but I cannot install and play it, without accepting that you will steal this information.For those who think I might have something to hide, I don't. I have paid for every single piece of harware/software on my system. My hobby is building pc's, the one I am using now has cost way more than I care to think about. I'm not going to hide the fact, I can run IP hide software; I can block just about everything via firewalls etc, when I want to; not because I have something to hide, but because I don't want companies stealing my data. If SI want, they can get my IP from this post. I have nothing to hide. I am just disgusted that they think stealing personal data against my will is acceptable. Be honest, how many of you out there would appreciate people just walking into your house and watching you on a 24/7 basis? If it happened you'd call the police and get them arrested; at least thrown out. The intruders might say that what they are doing is just collecting data on how you live your life so that they can improve it for the future. Why should it be any different for my pc? It's mine! I don't wan't people invading it without my permission. Just because they can, it doesn't make it right. Since when has it become acceptable for personal information to be stolen? What you are doing is just one step away from say, stealing all of my on-line banking details (should I be so stupid to do that). If this is the way of pc gaming, then fine, I'll go forever without buying another game. I do not advocate ever, and have never downloaded a 'cracked' version of a game. The truth is, if game companies continue to persue this line of thought, I might. If I could consider it, then many thousands more will. Thanks for the great games of the past. As for your new one's, go shove 'em. I understand your idea about privacy (I'd be so happy if telemarketers stopped calling me), but it's just not the way companies work in the real world. Everything you do online gets tracked, like it or not. The amount of time you spend looking at a web page, your email is searched for keywords that make relevant ads instantly appear, etc... I really don't see how it affects you in practice (besides theory) if Steam knows the amount of RAM in your computer. Does it really make such a difference? I mean, the phone company also knows how much and when you use your phone... Bottom line is, I believe that not playing FM just so someone won't know how much you play is not such a good trade-off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celtic_1967 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I have no problem with you collecting stats, I have a problem in that I have no say in the fact. If I buy the game you will, against my wishes, collect stats. In the street I can walk by someone collecting stats, you do not give me an option. It is a free world and it should be my choice as to whether I decide to provide information or not. It is not right for you to just take that info. As far as I am concerned, what you do is tantermount to theft. I cannot play the game without you stealing this information. I am not giving you permission to collect this information. Sorry, I have just realised, I may have paid for this game, but I cannot install and play it, without accepting that you will steal this information.For those who think I might have something to hide, I don't. I have paid for every single piece of harware/software on my system. My hobby is building pc's, the one I am using now has cost way more than I care to think about. I'm not going to hide the fact, I can run IP hide software; I can block just about everything via firewalls etc, when I want to; not because I have something to hide, but because I don't want companies stealing my data. If SI want, they can get my IP from this post. I have nothing to hide. I am just disgusted that they think stealing personal data against my will is acceptable. Be honest, how many of you out there would appreciate people just walking into your house and watching you on a 24/7 basis? If it happened you'd call the police and get them arrested; at least thrown out. The intruders might say that what they are doing is just collecting data on how you live your life so that they can improve it for the future. Why should it be any different for my pc? It's mine! I don't wan't people invading it without my permission. Just because they can, it doesn't make it right. Since when has it become acceptable for personal information to be stolen? What you are doing is just one step away from say, stealing all of my on-line banking details (should I be so stupid to do that). If this is the way of pc gaming, then fine, I'll go forever without buying another game. I do not advocate ever, and have never downloaded a 'cracked' version of a game. The truth is, if game companies continue to persue this line of thought, I might. If I could consider it, then many thousands more will. Thanks for the great games of the past. As for your new one's, go shove 'em. I fail to understand how someone can take this stance whilst using the internet. Just out of interest do you request a copy of the film for every cctv camera you walk past? They are there to make our lives safer/better or to spy on us depending which side of the fence you fall on. However most people just ignore them and carry on with their lives. These cctv camera's are 'stealing' info on what we do in our day to day lives and where we go. However I bet you see these as 'part of life'. Is the only reason you object about this info that FM collects for SI because you can? I suspect it is. I do find the outrage that these things cause hilarious. Everyone is always being watched however you get uppity about a games developer/manufacturer collecting simply because you know it is happening. What about the 1500 people a day in the UK that have their phone conversations listened to or emails read on the basis of home office requests under anti teror legislation. I'm willing to bet you havent written to the Government about it because you cant be sure it's happening you, there is no way for you to know. However you're prepared to get apoplectic about a computer game because the developer have the courtesy to let us know what they collect and why. It isn't even as if they can pinpoint your name and address from your copy of FM. IMO all these people who act with outrage at something quite so unimportant need to stop being silly and think this stuff through. It's hardly as if SI are monitoring your playing habits so that they can work out where you live & when you're not at home so they can go round and burgle you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruzway Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Miles ... To be honest , you shouldnt have post anything ... You have freaked people out with the data collection methods , there are some people here who dont really know what you talking about , they dont know much about how the web work or computers for that matter . They only thing they see from you post is "collecting my data" ... This will definitely not help you with the sales . Good luck !! People who is freaking out , just by posting on this forum , they can collect nearly about the same information !! If you dont want anyone to collect your data , break your internet cable now! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Waddle Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I fail to understand how someone can take this stance whilst using the internet. Just out of interest do you request a copy of the film for every cctv camera you walk past? They are there to make our lives safer/better or to spy on us depending which side of the fence you fall on. However most people just ignore them and carry on with their lives.These cctv camera's are 'stealing' info on what we do in our day to day lives and where we go. However I bet you see these as 'part of life'. Is the only reason you object about this info that FM collects for SI because you can? I suspect it is. I do find the outrage that these things cause hilarious. Everyone is always being watched however you get uppity about a games developer/manufacturer collecting simply because you know it is happening. What about the 1500 people a day in the UK that have their phone conversations listened to or emails read on the basis of home office requests under anti teror legislation. I'm willing to bet you havent written to the Government about it because you cant be sure it's happening you, there is no way for you to know. However you're prepared to get apoplectic about a computer game because the developer have the courtesy to let us know what they collect and why. It isn't even as if they can pinpoint your name and address from your copy of FM. IMO all these people who act with outrage at something quite so unimportant need to stop being silly and think this stuff through. It's hardly as if SI are monitoring your playing habits so that they can work out where you live & when you're not at home so they can go round and burgle you. CCTV, my choice to walk past it. I don't have to, but I am in my right to ask for it to be deleted; yes they do have to unless they give prior and sufficient notification. You think it's ok for people to have their conversations to be listened in to? You working for a red top paper? So what you are saying is that by being an honest citizen, playing FM10, I should therefore have my conversations monitored? It's a bloody game, why should I be monitored without my consent? Yes, SI are monitoring my playing habits, did you not read that, that is exactly what they are doing, via steam or however. Not saying they can work out where I exactly live, but, should they choose, they could, if they so wished, change the softwatare to determine that. Of course they curently don't, but you sound so inept, that you would install the game even if they did include that software. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjaart Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I think some people need to stop taking themselves so seriously. I personally avoid leaving my e-mail adress at websites or when filling out forms, and I never give out my phone number to anyone except friends. But that is just to keep businesses from bugging me with loads of 'incredible' offers. What data is collected of my habits, computerspecs or whatnot, I couldnt care less about. As long as he kept quiet, I wouldnt mind having Miles sitting behind me taking notes of my every move while playing FM, shopping or browsing the internet if he had any interrest in that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Waddle Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I think some people need to stop taking themselves so seriously. I personally avoid leaving my e-mail adress at websites or when filling out forms, and I never give out my phone number to anyone except friends. But that is just to keep businesses from bugging me with loads of 'incredible' offers. What data is collected of my habits, computerspecs or whatnot, I couldnt care less about. As long as he kept quiet, I wouldnt mind having Miles sitting behind me taking notes of my every move while playing FM, shopping or browsing the internet if he had any interrest in that. Ok, I am finishing now (thank god you all say), but, as you say you never give out the information unless you want to. This game isn't giving you the option, you install the game, you have to give out whatever information it chooses to collect, not what you choose - You have no choice in what information it takes! I would be quite happy for miles to sit behind me and collect info, should he ask, agree a convenient time etc. I don't just want somebody turning up when they want, taking whatever info they want. *Edit* If i was given the option of saying yes or no to the data collection I'd say Yes. I am just totally against the situation on not being able to say no. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikandros33 Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Is it just me or all these "behind scenes" sound weird to others too? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucho Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Ok, I am finishing now (thank god you all say), but, as you say you never give out the information unless you want to. This game isn't giving you the option, you install the game, you have to give out whatever information it chooses to collect, not what you choose - You have no choice in what information it takes!I would be quite happy for miles to sit behind me and collect info, should he ask, agree a convenient time etc. I don't just want somebody turning up when they want, taking whatever info they want. *Edit* If i was given the option of saying yes or no to the data collection I'd say Yes. I am just totally against the situation on not being able to say no. I think you do get the option to avoid the data collection. Bad news is that it means not installing the game.... Just relax and enjoy the game, I'm pretty sure SI doesn't have a world domination scheme based on our game-time stats. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFraser Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Obviously, that's your decision and opinion, and I have to accept that even if it does make me sad. The stats are something new that we started with last year and they make a massive positive difference to us, we have no plans on taking them out. As they are part of the game, having an opt in or opt out are not an option (advertising hoardings are powered by the IGA software, hence you won't see a Spanish advert in a Conference game). I personally don't think the info we collect is instruive, and it's a lot less than many websites we all visit regularly. With the stance you have taken there, you probably shouldn't be on this site (or any others that have any kind of advertising) as similar info is collected to decide which ads to serve (ads on websites also tend to be on a country by country basis). Like it or not, it's just the way of the world nowadays. Ho ho a guy that thinks that because we pay his wages he can do whatever he likes with our personal computers. Do you fancy paying the £100 charge I got for going over my 30GB data transfer limit this month? Personally I am not bothered about the data you collect but I don't like your attitude here, and I am one of your biggest and most vocal supporters. Not a smart reply in itself, and then you take into account the activition mess for FM09. Are you hoping for a lashback with FM10? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kickballz Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I'm not at all happy with you collecting ANY data from me for any reason unless I have approved it. This is the main reason why I won't be purchasing any more of your products. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
heron Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 There is a reason why there's always an uproar when people find out that Microsoft or Apple are "phoning home" to collect data about the PC the program is installed on. It's a clear invasion of the customer's privacy, especially if he/she has no idea whatsoever that this is done. Why do you think Microsoft specifically asks whetger you want to participate in a "Customer Experience Program"? It's amazing, given the many different laws from all the countries FM is sold, that your lawyers approved this scheme. But then, there might be a lawsuit still coming from distraught customers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kickballz Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I fail to understand how someone can take this stance whilst using the internet. Just out of interest do you request a copy of the film for every cctv camera you walk past? They are there to make our lives safer/better or to spy on us depending which side of the fence you fall on. However most people just ignore them and carry on with their lives.These cctv camera's are 'stealing' info on what we do in our day to day lives and where we go. However I bet you see these as 'part of life'. Is the only reason you object about this info that FM collects for SI because you can? I suspect it is. I do find the outrage that these things cause hilarious. Everyone is always being watched however you get uppity about a games developer/manufacturer collecting simply because you know it is happening. What about the 1500 people a day in the UK that have their phone conversations listened to or emails read on the basis of home office requests under anti teror legislation. I'm willing to bet you havent written to the Government about it because you cant be sure it's happening you, there is no way for you to know. However you're prepared to get apoplectic about a computer game because the developer have the courtesy to let us know what they collect and why. It isn't even as if they can pinpoint your name and address from your copy of FM. IMO all these people who act with outrage at something quite so unimportant need to stop being silly and think this stuff through. It's hardly as if SI are monitoring your playing habits so that they can work out where you live & when you're not at home so they can go round and burgle you. I disagree almost entirely with this post. You might find it unimportant and 'hilarious' that people value their right to privacy but I certainly don't think it is a laughing matter. I'm not saying that data collection on a game is comparable to CCTV - it was you that raised that straw man, but it is because of people like you that we all have to live in a society where it is 'a part of life' to be watched by CCTV constantly. When will it become too much for you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartans5 Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 You approve the data collection by installing the game, I don't understand what is so hard about realizing that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
heron Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 You approve the data collection by installing the game, I don't understand what is so hard about realizing that? The fact that we simply were never told this data was collected when/before we installed the game. That, and the fact that there isn't a option to disable it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
heron Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 double post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwfan Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I suggest everyone outraged by this read literature on the Coercion and Care theories of surveillance, especially some of the work that tries to synthesize the two perspectives. It is incredibly informative about the positives and negatives of such practices and explores the grey area between the diametric black/white perspectives people are taking here. Such actions can never be just one thing or the other, and there are just as many arguments for them as against them. People who have spent a lifetime writing about the subject cannot reconcile how they feel about such practices or weigh up the pros and cons in terms of the social good. If the option to gather data was optional, SI run the risk of missing out on important development information that benefits the social (i.e. FM players) as many would restrict their access. Thus, slower progress. However, because it is there, people feel their rights to privacy are invaded and feel coerced into giving out information. Result, upset customer base. It is about balancing the right of the individual against the benefit of the social group and is an extremely complex argument that black and white reactive thinking fails to do any justice. For the record, I'm neither for or against such surveillence techniques per se, but regard some as being benefical and others threatening individual freedoms. In terms of FM, I would like the social group (i.e. us) to benefit from such surveillance and weigh that up against the extremely minor inconveniences it might cause. However, for different techniques in different cases, I'd hold an opposite opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raware Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Just out of interest, after installing the CM10 demo, BGS do a similar kind of thing in recording data. However, they do actually give you the option of wanting to or not wanting to 'take part' in their data collection. Something i feel where there must be that option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kickballz Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I suggest everyone outraged by this read literature on the Coercion and Care theories of surveillance, especially some of the work that tries to synthesize the two perspectives. It is incredibly informative about the positives and negatives of such practices and explores the grey area between the diametric black/white perspectives people are taking here. Such actions can never be just one thing or the other, and there are just as many arguments for them as against them. People who have spent a lifetime writing about the subject cannot reconcile how they feel about such practices or weigh up the pros and cons in terms of the social good. If the option to gather data was optional, SI run the risk of missing out on important development information that benefits the social (i.e. FM players) as many would restrict their access. Thus, slower progress. However, because it is there, people feel their rights to privacy are invaded and feel coerced into giving out information. Result, upset customer base. It is about balancing the right of the individual against the benefit of the social group and is an extremely complex argument that black and white reactive thinking fails to do any justice. For the record, I'm neither for or against such surveillence techniques per se, but regard some as being benefical and others threatening individual freedoms. In terms of FM, I would like the social group (i.e. us) to benefit from such surveillance and weigh that up against the extremely minor inconveniences it might cause. However, for different techniques in different cases, I'd hold an opposite opinion. The loaded language you use suggests that you aren't quite as neutral as you make out. Personally, I'm not outraged either because this kind of thing doesn't surprise me, although I am concerned about where it could potentially lead us if we keep accepting it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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