Booted up fm12 to see how far we have ( or haven't) evolved - match engine

[El_sambo]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

You do need to bare in mind that FM20 still isn't in it's finished state yet! 

I'm enjoying FM15 at the moment & having a good save on that so fair dos you've gone back to FM12 & enjoy that but I'm sure FM20 will only get better  

Oh great, glad I paid 40quid for an unfinished game 

[Jack Joyce]

21 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

Me too. Or it would be if it was transparent. I have a serious collection of stadium pictures. I want to see them on matchday like the good old days, for total immersion. With transparent widgets I get to see half the stadium pic in split view. I would like to see more of it, and that means removing the grey box. Which, I’ve found out, is actually impossible to implement.

2d back then was immersive. Isn’t immersion what we all want?

The pitch is a pitch. The ME is waaaay better now. But the overall matchday experience for 2d was by far better pre fm17.

Best thing to do for suggestions on how to make the 2D experience better is to head to the suggestions forum and post your ideas there. Every single post there gets reviewed, there's certainly improvements we can make 

[Svenc]

8 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

And don't dare to try use a target man as players didn't score much, if at all, from headers.

Not sure if entirelly true. Naturally depends. But I had a save lower Tier in Norway where I rocked those leagues by signing Forwards with a significant physical Edge over the average defenders (+5+6 Points Attribute gap, easy to do lower league), and bombed them with crosses. But then they did have that Edge. That Edge was that big that it showed in the Forward's profile already, where (as a Forward!) they would oft win like 80%+ of their seasonal headers. That's a lot, as the CBs have the edge as they face the ball upon defending (and so have higher percentages usually). SO it may have simply worked by the sheer number of crosses/headers won. No AI Team had Forwards anywhere near those I signed.  I still have vids of that save, just seen.  
 

However, that save also highlighted how back then even with the most aggressive mentality and passing Settings, you barely had longer balls played back to front. That is from the CBs all the way up. Try it, OP. Nowadays you would simply needed to field a target man, and you would see These balls regularly, sometimes straight from the kick-off. In general, the distinction between a) Play and b) roles was nowhere near as profound back then. No wonder, as the roles had not yet been made a part of the Code, but were simply "slider Presets". A step that arguably has yet to happen for the "style Presets"...………………. and should imo.

FM 2012 was the last release btw. in which Matches didn't last the 90 minutes full. There's still legacy parts of the Code in there. It's in the quick sim. The number the quick sim (Competitions not on full Detail) churns out still fit FM 2012 and before. E.g. there is less shots made, less passes played, etc.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Svenc

[Johnny Ace]

25 minutes ago, El_sambo said:

Oh great, glad I paid 40quid for an unfinished game 

It's the same every year, it's finished but there will be future updates 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Johnny Ace

[Tyburn]

17 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

Best thing to do for suggestions on how to make the 2D experience better is to head to the suggestions forum and post your ideas there. Every single post there gets reviewed, there's certainly improvements we can make 

Thank you. I have. A while ago. Unfortunately I haven’t heard anything about the technicalities of the request.

[Serptimo]

56 minutes ago, El_sambo said:

Oh great, glad I paid 40quid for an unfinished game 

dont worry, us beta testers wont have to pay an extra for the full product I have heard.

[herne79]

2 hours ago, El_sambo said:

What's that poking up at the bottom of the screen?  On second thoughts don't tell us .

Anyway *ahem* back on topic - if you prefer FM12 then great, crack on . 

With each iteration the Match Engine is technically more advanced than the last, so to specifically answer your thread title the ME is far more evolved now compared to FM12.  However that doesn't always cover personal enjoyment so if you prefer how the ME plays in FM12 then, again, crack on.

I will add however that if you are struggling for variety in goals there are things you can do about that.

[Federico]

Again with this story of FM12 being the best ever??

omg...

[KUBI]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Federico:

Again with this story of FM12 being the best ever??

omg...

To be fair in the last thread it was FM17. 

[Svenc]

18 minutes ago, KUBI said:

To be fair in the last thread it was FM17. 

Just Shows the bias as towards attacking Play (that "neat Goals" bit). Which is viable, mind.   FM17 probably had the least "realistic" defending of any Iteration since the big rewrites for FM 13. For an entire release, from my end they Pretty much detoured Football in favor of Fixing an FM16 issue. Which is Pretty damn META. However, I can still see why some would like it.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Svenc

[Federico]

An upgrade at last! 

[Snorks]

5 hours ago, El_sambo said:

 Watch how the net then ruffles.

 

Not going to disagree with this statement, at all. It's never looked as good since.

 

 

[RBKalle]

5 ore fa, Sanel ha scritto:

 you only put 500 hours in the game I bet you don't even remember how the game was.

As a side-note, it's really interesting to see how 500 hours are perceived as a ridiculously low amount, whereas in most games, that'd be considered an insanely high figure, bordering on obsession.

[Dagenham_Dave]

4 hours ago, sidslayer said:

2d back then was immersive. Isn’t immersion what we all want?

 

Total immersion watching dots on a screen? Ok then....

[Tyburn]

4 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Total immersion watching dots on a screen? Ok then....

The fact is that having the stadium background in the background was a darn side more immersive than a grey block of cover up. But argue away ... 

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

The fact is that having the stadium background in the background was a darn side more immersive than a grey block of cover up. But argue away ... 

According to Miles, hardly anyone ever used that version of 2D when there were the two available, that's why they made the current iteration more akin to the old 2D classic. 

The old style 2D classic had no backgrounds either. 

[forameuss]

Immersion is one of those horrible little words that has lost all meaning.  If you're expecting the game itself to be truly immersive, and the game in question is FM, then you're going to be eternally disappointed.  As has always been the case, you need to actually have some degree of personal imagination to be truly immersed, to really get into a save, to flesh out all the important context points that FM has always struggled to model.

But of course, nowadays that sort of thing is frowned upon.  Much better to absolve all personal responsibility and just complain that everything hasn't been handed to you.

[Tyburn]

7 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

According to Miles, hardly anyone ever used that version of 2D when there were the two available, that's why they made the current iteration more akin to the old 2D classic. 

The old style 2D classic had no backgrounds either. 

That is simply not true. The reason everyone 3 years ago got so upset was for the very reason that 2d classic showed background pictures on matchday. Then they got rid of that, renamed 2d 2d classic. And here we are. A less immersive, patched up 2d, that many many people play for a whole host of reasons. It looked better back then because of stadium pictures on matchday. And no grey border around the pitch.

Edited November 26, 2019 by sidslayer

[Tyburn]

2 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Immersion is one of those horrible little words that has lost all meaning.  If you're expecting the game itself to be truly immersive, and the game in question is FM, then you're going to be eternally disappointed.  As has always been the case, you need to actually have some degree of personal imagination to be truly immersed, to really get into a save, to flesh out all the important context points that FM has always struggled to model.

But of course, nowadays that sort of thing is frowned upon.  Much better to absolve all personal responsibility and just complain that everything hasn't been handed to you.

That’s not at all what I’m saying. I’m saying a background picture of the stadium you’re playing at, on matchday, is more immersive than a grey box. No matter which way you look at it, unless you are blind, that is a fact.

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

That is simply not true. The reason everyone 3 years ago got so upset was for the very reason that 2d classic showed background pictures on matchday. Then they got rid of that, renamed 2d 2d classic. And here we are. A less immersive, patched up 2d, that many many people play for a while host of reasons. It looked better back then because of stadium pictures on matchday. And no grey border around the pitch.

I don't care either way, but I'm really not sure how you can say it's not true, when Miles and SI would know who was playing what through Steam data...

[Tyburn]

3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I don't care either way, but I'm really not sure how you can say it's not true, when Miles and SI would know who was playing what through Steam data...

Not what miles did or didn’t say. The state of the aesthetics of 2d then, and 2d now.

Check any recent poll. Many many people still play 2d. And always will. If there is a way to make it better, more immersive, as it was 3 years ago, we should suggest it. Shouldn’t we?

Edited November 26, 2019 by sidslayer

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

That is simply not true. The reason everyone 3 years ago got so upset was for the very reason that 2d classic showed background pictures on matchday. Then they got rid of that, renamed 2d 2d classic. And here we are. A less immersive, patched up 2d, that many many people play for a while host of reasons. It looked better back then because of stadium pictures on matchday. And no grey border around the pitch.

First of all, the change in 2D was two years ago, not three. It was FM18 where it happened. 

Secondly, the 2D Classic modes before this had NO pictures in the background as you can see from Lollujo's video below. He too has the widgets to cover the greyness. 

Apart from that though, spot on. 

[KUBI]

IIRC - The old 2D was removed because it used a separate match engine. 

[Tyburn]

33 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

First of all, the change in 2D was two years ago, not three. It was FM18 where it happened. 

Secondly, the 2D Classic modes before this had NO pictures in the background as you can see from Lollujo's video below. He too has the widgets to cover the greyness. 

Apart from that though, spot on. 

So I imagined having stadium backgrounds on matchday did I? Whatever pedantic dates you want to throw at me, the fact remains, 2d did have the ability to show background pictures on matchday behind the 2d pitch, without a grey border, and it was greatly more pleasing and immersive to look at than a grey box. Stop arguing for the sake of it.

I can have background pictures on matchday on this version btw, I just can’t get rid of the grey box. Because as Kubi says. It’s now the same match engine.

Edited November 26, 2019 by sidslayer

[Dagenham_Dave]

And here's a pic of my own save on FM17 using the 2D as opposed to the 2D classic.  For me, I agree, this looks much better, but people wanted the 2D to be more like the classic version in the post above. And that's why they went in that direction. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

Just now, sidslayer said:

So I imagined having stadium backgrounds on matchday did I? 

No, you're just very confused as to what you're talking about. I'm sorry to sway the discussion with actual facts. 

[Tyburn]

Lol. You could get rid of the stadium stands back then for a background picture.

[Tyburn]

And again, nit pick the dates if you wish. You could have background pictures behind the pitch on matchday, once apon a time, not so long ago. Before the grey box stopped all that. This is simply a fact. And it was more immersive.

Edited November 26, 2019 by sidslayer

[themadsheep2001]

9 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

Not what miles did or didn’t say. The state of the aesthetics of 2d then, and 2d now.

Check any recent poll. Many many people still play 2d. And always will. If there is a way to make it better, more immersive, as it was 3 years ago, we should suggest it. Shouldn’t we?

Forget polls. SI actually have access to exactly who is playing what and how. 

If you want to suggest something, use the features section. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 minute ago, sidslayer said:

Lol. You could get rid of the stadium stands back then for a background picture.

Good god 

I tried my best. Let's move on. 

[Tyburn]

This is totally ridiculous. You’re denying a fact. I have no idea why. Perhaps you like looking at grey boxes.

 

[Tyburn]

2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Forget polls. SI actually have access to exactly who is playing what and how. 

If you want to suggest something, use the features section. 

I have.

[Dagenham_Dave]

8 minutes ago, KUBI said:

IIRC - The old 2D was removed because it used a separate match engine. 

I'd be surprised if it was that to be honest, I think it was a different graphics engine, not just a different view. And it wasn't cost effective to keep both running. The match engine itself was the same. I could be wrong with this, but looking at the highlights from my FM17 save just now and it's the exact same passages of play as I flick between both 2D modes. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

8 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

 For me, I agree, this looks much better, 

 

1 minute ago, sidslayer said:

 Perhaps you like looking at grey boxes.

 

[Tyburn]

Doesn’t look as good as old Trafford, Stamford bridge or Portman road though... does it?

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 minute ago, sidslayer said:

Doesn’t look as good as old Trafford, Stamford bridge or Portman road though... does it?

Most things look better than Portman Road, in fairness. 

[Tyburn]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Most things look better than Portman Road, in fairness. 

Magik 

[Tony Wright 747]

44 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I don't care either way, but I'm really not sure how you can say it's not true, when Miles and SI would know who was playing what through Steam data...

They don't  know what version or what camera view I am using, because along with a lot of others once the game is installed I play offline.

[themadsheep2001]

3 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

They don't  know what version or what camera view I am using, because along with a lot of others once the game is installed I play offline.

And when you go online to update, data is collected. It might be intermittent, but its still collected, and the vast majority don't go offline, so they still get a strong picture. So tbh, I have no idea what point you were trying to make.

[Tony Wright 747]

11 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

And when you go online to update, data is collected. It might be intermittent, but its still collected, and the vast majority don't go offline, so they still get a strong picture. So tbh, I have no idea what point you were trying to make.

I don't go online to update, I am playing FM16 and FM12  I never buy the game until after the last patch and once I have installed do not go online again.  The point I am making is that apart from the information that I have chosen to give on these forums, Miles or anyone from SI have no idea how many hours I am playing any version nor if I am using 2D or 3D. You were suggesting that SI know who is playing what through steam.

[themadsheep2001]

6 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I don't go online to update, I am playing FM16 and FM12  I never buy the game until after the last patch and once I have installed do not go online again.  The point I am making is that apart from the information that I have chosen to give on these forums, Miles or anyone from SI have no idea how many hours I am playing any version nor if I am using 2D or 3D. You were suggesting that SI know who is playing what through steam.

Unless you have turned off Enable data collection in football manager, once you go back online on steam they will collect that data. They do know who is playing what through steam. I have no idea why you've tried to pick a pedantic argument, mind, its not all about you Tony. and I'm not sure why you're trying to muddy waters.

[Dagenham_Dave]

18 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I don't go online to update, I am playing FM16 and FM12  I never buy the game until after the last patch and once I have installed do not go online again.  

At the very worst, all this means is they might not have YOUR data. I'd be very surprised if the majority go about things the way you do. 

[Tony Wright 747]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

At the very worst, all this means is they might not have YOUR data. I'd be very surprised if the majority go about things the way you do. 

Totally agree with you Dave , that was all I was trying to say that sI don't have everyones data and I appreciate that I am probably in the minority as I would think I am in the way I play the game overall, but I am over 70 so i think I am entitled to some perculiarities

[KUBI]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Tony Wright 747:

I don't go online to update, I am playing FM16 and FM12  I never buy the game until after the last patch and once I have installed do not go online again.  The point I am making is that apart from the information that I have chosen to give on these forums, Miles or anyone from SI have no idea how many hours I am playing any version nor if I am using 2D or 3D. You were suggesting that SI know who is playing what through steam.

And you actually think that you represent a lot of players? Playing FM 12 and 16? 

[Snorks]

4 hours ago, RBKalle said:

As a side-note, it's really interesting to see how 500 hours are perceived as a ridiculously low amount, whereas in most games, that'd be considered an insanely high figure, bordering on obsession.

That's the problem - if you are only 'bordering on obsession' then you ain't playing it right! Full-on manic obsessive is the only real benchmark. 

[Tony Wright 747]

12 minutes ago, KUBI said:

And you actually think that you represent a lot of players? Playing FM 12 and 16? 

If you read my post above, you would see that the answer to your question is no

[KUBI]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Tony Wright 747:

If you read my post above, you would see that the answer to your question is no

There is a good indicator on how many people playing older versions, at least on the mac. The new OS Catalina supports only 64bit applications, that means everything older than FM2017 does not run anymore. There are some threads about it, but very few. 

[Tony Wright 747]

2 minutes ago, KUBI said:

There is a good indicator on how many people playing older versions, at least on the mac. The new OS Catalina supports only 64bit applications, that means everything older than FM2017 does not run anymore. There are some threads about it, but very few. 

I am playing on a pc running windows 7, and as I have said play completely offline.  I have no idea how many people are still playing FM12 , I know Smurf does.  It would appear a lot of people have  gone back to playing FM17, I didn't see a big enough difference from 16 to buy that version.  I didn't rate 18 or 19 and the jury is still out on if I buy 20 or not, the probability is I won't from what I have seen.  the demo which I played on my laptop lagged awfully, but that could be down to my machine.

[Tyburn]

Just as a matter of interest does anybody think the grey border around the 2d pitch looks good? Wouldn’t you prefer a picture of the stadium you’re playing at in the background? Is it really just me?

Huge numbers of us download face packs, logos, kits, backgrounds to enhance the game world. A world rooted in reality. To make it more immersive. Shouldn’t that extend to matchday also?

Edited November 27, 2019 by sidslayer

[Baodan]

7 hours ago, sidslayer said:

Wouldn’t you prefer a picture of the stadium you’re playing at in the background?

Sure.