Why do not FM creators value online gaming?

[Joaquimorais]

you can spend as many years as you need, FM does not change the use of the game online, it does not create anything different, only thing that created from 08 to 19, it was Draft mode (incredibly annoying) why not create an online mode type what FIFA has Ultimate Team? the world has changed, everyone wants to play online now, why do not they adapt? It's so good to play this game online, please take this post seriously.
if you have doubts, check out our totally Brazilian forum of FM ONLINE, perfect without errors!
http://fmon.org/
http://fmon.org/lfm/campeonato.php?id=4
http://fmon.org/lfm/partida.php?id=3710

[nie jem frytek]

24 minutes ago, Joaquimorais said:

everyone wants to play online now

I'm pretty sure that FM demographics are not pre-puberty children.

[Joaquimorais]

Just now, nie jem frytek said:

kids don't really play FM

I'm 22 years old, I've played this game since 2007 :|

[Joaquimorais]

Just now, nie jem frytek said:

Grow up then.

because? Are you giving a suggestion for the game to improve? by the way who needs to grow is you

[Joaquimorais]

5 minutes ago, nie jem frytek said:

I'm pretty sure that FM demographics are not pre-puberty children.

So you define FM as a game for old people?

[DavyDepuydt1]

SI can know this for sure, but I think that just a very small percentage of people play multiplayer. I don't see a lot of value in a multiplayer version myself... I think it's just a small few that have multiplayer games going over a longer period of time ....

[Joaquimorais]

3 minutes ago, DavyDepuydt1 said:

SI can know this for sure, but I think that just a very small percentage of people play multiplayer. I don't see a lot of value in a multiplayer version myself... I think it's just a small few that have multiplayer games going over a longer period of time ....

using an overview, do not you think it could increase the audience that the game would have an online version?

[sporadicsmiles]

Football manager does not lend itself to online gaming in the same way as FIFA does though. In FIFA you can dip in and out as you choose. Playing a single game if you have a little spare time for instance. FM is simply not like that. You typically have to dedicate several hours over a predefined period with whoever is playing with you. Everyone in your league or competition or whatever have to be present consistently to make it worthwhile. It is pretty rigid, and does not fit in with how people typically want to play games. You want to play as much as you want, when you want. Nothing in the core game really lends itself to that. There is little point in FM trying to muscle its way into the FIFA scene with a mode similar to Ultimate Team. It is unlikely to attract new fans, as far as I can tell. People who play FIFA will continue to play FIFA. I think the majority of people who play FM will not use it. Even if current users would play it, what is the point in developing something that is not attracting new customers? And how does it work for FM anyway? Having a good tactical setup is at least as important as having good players. Great players playing in a badly designed tactic will not play well. And this will put people off.

FM did have FMonline for a while. I never used it, because online game play does not interest me (I am not dismissive of people who do care however). This clearly did not work, for reason I do not know. Honestly, I do not think there is a large market for an online version of football manager. Those people who want to play online can do so already. I have dabbled in this in the past. Clearly we will not be able to get the opinions of people who do not play the game on whether they would actually buy the game because of an online version/mode that is different to currently available (you would need to find a general football forum to ask that, but the results would be interesting). So everything is speculation here. I just do not see it attracting a lot of new people to the game. I do not think SI have issues with needing to do so either.

[jack18881717]

Do you not remember FM Live?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Manager_Live

It was a disaster.

The vast majority of FM players are not interested in FM Online.

[Joaquimorais]

4 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Football manager does not lend itself to online gaming in the same way as FIFA does though. In FIFA you can dip in and out as you choose. Playing a single game if you have a little spare time for instance. FM is simply not like that. You typically have to dedicate several hours over a predefined period with whoever is playing with you. Everyone in your league or competition or whatever have to be present consistently to make it worthwhile. It is pretty rigid, and does not fit in with how people typically want to play games. You want to play as much as you want, when you want. Nothing in the core game really lends itself to that. There is little point in FM trying to muscle its way into the FIFA scene with a mode similar to Ultimate Team. It is unlikely to attract new fans, as far as I can tell. People who play FIFA will continue to play FIFA. I think the majority of people who play FM will not use it. Even if current users would play it, what is the point in developing something that is not attracting new customers? And how does it work for FM anyway? Having a good tactical setup is at least as important as having good players. Great players playing in a badly designed tactic will not play well. And this will put people off.

FM did have FMonline for a while. I never used it, because online game play does not interest me (I am not dismissive of people who do care however). This clearly did not work, for reason I do not know. Honestly, I do not think there is a large market for an online version of football manager. Those people who want to play online can do so already. I have dabbled in this in the past. Clearly we will not be able to get the opinions of people who do not play the game on whether they would actually buy the game because of an online version/mode that is different to currently available (you would need to find a general football forum to ask that, but the results would be interesting). So everything is speculation here. I just do not see it attracting a lot of new people to the game. I do not think SI have issues with needing to do so either.

I understood your point, but what I was referring to was FM championships, playing against the machine is easy, playing against a human is no longer so much, I realized that they are organizing in some points of England, but only in England unfortunately

[Joaquimorais]

5 minutes ago, jack18881717 said:

Do you not remember FM Live?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Manager_Live

It was a disaster.

The vast majority of FM players are not interested in FM Online.

I do not remember, there was no good internet to play online at this time in my region, 2008 is 11 years ago, it's a lot, but I also understand your point.

[Chef Raekwon]

I believe Rodney Sneijder, younger brother of Wesley, used to boast a -9 PA in FM13 (?). In real life, he's currently playing on his own level at a decent amateur side. 

 

Balanta was another insane player a few iterations ago of whom we have heard very little since.

[decapitated]

There is very little interest in playing online among Football Manager players. It's just not designed for it. What is Ultimate team for those of us who don't know? I've never heard of it as I haven't played fifa since the 1990s.

[Joaquimorais]

2 minutes ago, decapitated said:

There is very little interest in playing online among Football Manager players. It's just not designed for it. What is Ultimate team for those of us who don't know? I've never heard of it as I haven't played fifa since the 1990s.

https://fifaaddiction.com/ultimate-team/what-is-fifa-ultimate-team/

[decapitated]

5 minutes ago, Joaquimorais said:

https://fifaaddiction.com/ultimate-team/what-is-fifa-ultimate-team/

That explains why you get so many kids spending all their money on fifa points in local games shops. I really don't want football manager to go down the route of microtransactions any more. This ultimate team is basically gambling really, so I doubt they'd go for it. 

[sporadicsmiles]

4 hours ago, Joaquimorais said:

I understood your point, but what I was referring to was FM championships, playing against the machine is easy, playing against a human is no longer so much, I realized that they are organizing in some points of England, but only in England unfortunately

Ah fair enough. Well, I have no answer for you. It is not really something I ever think about. An e-gaming championship pitting the best against the best would be something I might actually watch mind. 

[Joaquimorais]

2 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Ah fair enough. Well, I have no answer for you. It is not really something I ever think about. An e-gaming championship pitting the best against the best would be something I might actually watch mind. 

yes, it's like I think, I've always been like this, I always wanted to be the best in what I do and with FM it was no different, I wanted to face the best coaches one day.

[RBKalle]

I hope I'll never see the day when SI and FM will embrace online-only gaming. Nevermind something like FUT, which is a disgraceful and despicable business practice bordering on predatory...

Luckly the very nature of the game, a slow-paced, data oriented, "speculative" version of football, doesn't lend itself particularly well to an online experience similar to many contemporary "games as services" practice.

Also, FM is by definition a niche game, so I don't really see a huge amount of potential new customers... FUT works because kids want to PLAY with their team and their players. In FM, the input of the users is big, but it's much more constrained by it being a football MANAGEMENT game.

No offense meant, but this is the worst idea ever pitched in here, much worse than already appalling suggestions like "make FM look like FIFA" and "give us cosmetic stuff to spend our virtual wage on"

[Amarante]

3 hours ago, RBKalle said:

I hope I'll never see the day when SI and FM will embrace online-only gaming. Nevermind something like FUT, which is a disgraceful and despicable business practice bordering on predatory...

Luckly the very nature of the game, a slow-paced, data oriented, "speculative" version of football, doesn't lend itself particularly well to an online experience similar to many contemporary "games as services" practice.

Also, FM is by definition a niche game, so I don't really see a huge amount of potential new customers... FUT works because kids want to PLAY with their team and their players. In FM, the input of the users is big, but it's much more constrained by it being a football MANAGEMENT game.

No offense meant, but this is the worst idea ever pitched in here, much worse than already appalling suggestions like "make FM look like FIFA" and "give us cosmetic stuff to spend our virtual wage on"

Using the FIFA model is a bit bland i believe the model that OP is talking about is Total War. A next niche game where they have a good online community. OP is talking about making FM online a bit more easier and more interesting and why creators don't do it. I follow a few creators and all games are singleplayer while on the total war scene you have a few that do multiplayer and its a bit fun. 

The reason why FM doesn't have that much of a online following is because its very strenuous work to get it going. On the creator side though, it should be very easy to set up a multiplayer season of football. 

I believe that SI could in theory create a FM friendly online mode where you go into a lobby with a team you create and play a friendly match that is ranked/unranked where the system assign players to play each other as your real test is not playing against AI its by playing against a next player which provides the ultimate challenge in any game. 

The problem that you run in, is how many persons will do this how many persons play online etc where only SI has the numbers for this. 

[KlaaZ]

17 hours ago, Chef Raekwon said:

I believe Rodney Sneijder, younger brother of Wesley, used to boast a -9 PA in FM13 (?). In real life, he's currently playing on his own level at a decent amateur side. 

 

Balanta was another insane player a few iterations ago of whom we have heard very little since.

I think you're in the wrong thread, @Chef Raekwon

[forameuss]

The only thing I see as remotely realistic for SI to follow is just shoring up the online play that's already there.  There will likely never be a more fleshed out online mode in the West after FML was a relatively colossal failure.  Why put time and resources into something that's already failed once with just a vague hope that it works this time?

[RBKalle]

6 ore fa, Amarante ha scritto:

I believe that SI could in theory create a FM friendly online mode where you go into a lobby with a team you create and play a friendly match that is ranked/unranked where the system assign players to play each other as your real test is not playing against AI its by playing against a next player which provides the ultimate challenge in any game. 

The problem that you run in, is how many persons will do this how many persons play online etc where only SI has the numbers for this. 

But there must be a league structure to make it worthwhile for the players... Thus a live schedule with games etc...

Basically Hattrick but with much more stuff going on also under the hood. Also, would the immense amount of data be client-side or server-side? How'd the two opponents interact? How should a game last? Because in solo FM there's a huge difference between playing a match in Key or Extended highlights. And how'd the game recalculate the result at every tiny change from either managers?

I'm no expert, but most online games of that sort are either turn based (or hybrids) or fully live. FM can't really be either at this stage or with the current structure. I doubt even the stripped-down FM Mobile could work like that.

[sporadicsmiles]

8 hours ago, Amarante said:

while on the total war scene you have a few that do multiplayer and its a bit fun.

That is mostly because the AI in total war is absolute garbage and survives only because it has a bunch of reduced penalties to make it actually not go bankrupt and lose all provinces to rebellion. I have just been revisiting Attila the last few weeks, and the AI is just terrible. FM has a much better AI than this (while not perfect), making the single player experience much more fulfilling. In TW multiplayer is fun because you can actually fight against people who can use tactics and think on the fly.

[ajt]

I used to try network games in the CM days. Not sure if it's improved but it was really awful waiting for people to continue the game. Maybe it would be better now with continue game timeout but I don't think I could put up with the slow pace of it. 

[Stevicus]

FMLive was before it's time, maybe it could have worked better these days, perhaps it wouldn't . But the main issue was FMLive was only good at the beginning of a GW, when all players were free transfers and the first people that could afford the big names would get them eventually and that's where the trouble started. 

 

If you joined a GW too late, you'd be picking free players from the dregs. The star players rarely transferred and sometimes the managers that owned these players remained inactive anyway. 

 

It just doesn't work as a concept really, noone wants to pay a subscription and not be able to have their favourite players, noone wants to pay a subscription to play against the AI because the opponent hasn't logged in for two weeks, ye may as well just be playing normal FM. 

 

 

[Peljam]

For me there are two different parts to FM's online issues, or profiles I guess.

 

Current Network Saves

This needs some love from SI. There are people who do enjoy network saves, there are streamers and youtubers who play and produce content on it that is really entertaining. But it has some issues. It's not been optimised, there's lag issues relating to the interface, and most importantly fairly big issues with divergence (players seeing different results and in game actions), that can impact on stability and just general enjoyment. If these were fixed and it was just given a bit of a polish I think we'd see even more people playing it. One of my favourite FM saves was a network save with my younger brother back in FM12/13. It's not really improved since then.

Network saves can be a bit time investment, you're not going to do that if it's a frustrating experience or if there are errors like divergence. It's not a case of needing new features, it just needs some polishing and tweaking as it stands.

 

FML

I agree with Stevicus - It was before it's time and with hindsight there are lots of issues that could probably be addressed better now. It was released en-masse before it was ready. Some of the issues weren't directly related to the game player itself - SI had a big reset of the gameworlds which put tons of people off for example, even with the free time they offered back.

There's a game on steam called 90 Minute Fever, and whilst I'm not a big fan of it (because of the engine and interface) it has got some potential solutions in it to some of the FML issues. Real players/legends are released sporadically rather than all at the start, blind bidding, 24 hour blind bid windows, legends are released if a team is inactive. I think (though I can't remember enough about FML's system) it's also much easier to force a match against someone who's not been online during their preferred 'time slots'.

If FM introduced some of that it might have made for a better experience. Or purely fantasty game worlds to avoid the real player issues. They also needed to sort the peripheral issues out as well. Training, stadiums, infrastructure, morale/psychology, tactics, all needed to be more important so that new players weren't just outbought/spent.

I don't think FML will ever rise from the ashes. I wish it would as I think on a smaller scale they could do something great with it.

[Amarante]

On 08/05/2019 at 03:27, RBKalle said:

But there must be a league structure to make it worthwhile for the players... Thus a live schedule with games etc...

Basically Hattrick but with much more stuff going on also under the hood. Also, would the immense amount of data be client-side or server-side? How'd the two opponents interact? How should a game last? Because in solo FM there's a huge difference between playing a match in Key or Extended highlights. And how'd the game recalculate the result at every tiny change from either managers?

I'm no expert, but most online games of that sort are either turn based (or hybrids) or fully live. FM can't really be either at this stage or with the current structure. I doubt even the stripped-down FM Mobile could work like that.

Thats why i suggested a friendly model not a league model. A league model would have to take place between parties that consent to set times and schedule etc. Thats how most multiplayer campaigns are done. With the friendly model games don't need a structure and all you need is a lobby 

[WorcesterLegend]

hace 50 minutos, Amarante dijo:

Thats why i suggested a friendly model not a league model. A league model would have to take place between parties that consent to set times and schedule etc. Thats how most multiplayer campaigns are done. With the friendly model games don't need a structure and all you need is a lobby 

That could be a way to attract a lil more of people to the game, problem is that after playing 3 or 4 games with the same liverpool vs tottenham or man u vs man c it gets old, FM works on a league structure with transfers and tactics in the middle, u could say "use the team from one of your saves" who can stop someone from putting 18 players with 200 CA on a team with the editor? I get bored of fifa/pes after 3 or 4 friendlies with my friends, even if they are as good as me playing i enjoy more the day to day of a manager and i guess more than half of player base is the same be it on the tactic side or the DoF side or both

[Amarante]

3 minutes ago, WorcesterLegend said:

That could be a way to attract a lil more of people to the game, problem is that after playing 3 or 4 games with the same liverpool vs tottenham or man u vs man c it gets old, FM works on a league structure with transfers and tactics in the middle, u could say "use the team from one of your saves" who can stop someone from putting 18 players with 200 CA on a team with the editor? I get bored of fifa/pes after 3 or 4 friendlies with my friends, even if they are as good as me playing i enjoy more the day to day of a manager and i guess more than half of player base is the same be it on the tactic side or the DoF side or both

Then you integrate an FM draft model, you can have different factors example saves that use the IGE are not able to participate or have a separate type of match for this. 

Or you use the draft where points are earned based on your teams performance in your saves or how many match you win/lose. 

[sedge11]

On 07/05/2019 at 13:50, Joaquimorais said:

everyone wants to play online now

Can’t say I’ve ever been interested in playing online. 

I get what your trying to say and the idea, and I’ve seen YouTube creators doing small online tournaments which have looked good. 

But I can’t see fm ever going down the route of fifa ultimate team as i don’t think it would get the interest.

[Woolly]

On ‎07‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 13:50, Joaquimorais said:

the world has changed, everyone wants to play online now, why do not they adapt?

The majority of FM players do not want to play online that's why the game developers have not adapted. FM and other management games were originally designed when internet access was limited (I've been playing since the beginning almost, starting with Championship Manager 2 which had not online or network(LAN) access, it only allowed one manager at a time to be created shock horror). It was ground breaking at the time due to the depth of the game, and that is what the main appeal of the game is still for the majority of players who buy the francise year after year.    

[shirajzl]

Things like FM Live can never work long term because someone has to lose and keep playing and still losing. In single player saves you quit when everything falls apart, but in an online environment with league structures someone has to suffer and no one likes that, especially if you're paying for the privilege.

[forameuss]

15 hours ago, Amarante said:

Then you integrate an FM draft model, you can have different factors example saves that use the IGE are not able to participate or have a separate type of match for this. 

Or you use the draft where points are earned based on your teams performance in your saves or how many match you win/lose. 

 

And then you add this, and then you add this, and then you add this...and then you start to realise quite why it isn't worth spending what would be a considerable amount of resources on something that not many people seem that interested in.

[RBKalle]

16 ore fa, Amarante ha scritto:

Thats why i suggested a friendly model not a league model. A league model would have to take place between parties that consent to set times and schedule etc. Thats how most multiplayer campaigns are done. With the friendly model games don't need a structure and all you need is a lobby 

But a friendly mode would be pointless...

A ranked mode, like mass fantasy football leagues, would probably be a decent enough approximation, with tiered leagues and matchmaking. However, even that for of "league" wouldn't solve the key problem of a FMOnline game.

Time and data load.

* Time: matches must be played, so there must be a timer or something. Like: Matchday #1 is on Wed, 8pm CET. And whoever isn't ready will either play with their most recent formation/lineup (if applicable) or will lose 2-0 by default.
Same for transfers, with contracts running out at set times (the can be monthly or "in-game" yearly etc), transfer windows opening and closing etc.

Basically the Hattrick model.

* Data: here's the issue... Hattrick is a very straightforward game with very little data and, AFAIK, no match engine. FM is a very heavy game, with a huge amount of data that requires processing both between games and during matches.
What kind of servers would SEGA need in order to keep all the MMO leagues running at the same time? Or should the processing happen locally on the users' machines to then upload that to the servers for updating etc? (and that'd slow things down immensely, as not every player has fast internet connection. And even those who have don't have much bandwidth in upload anyway).

I just don't see it being feasible...

FM is at heart THE single-player game. Its fanbase is a niche within a niche, surely one that doesn't overlap with the current "everyone wants to play online" gaming community. FM is a personal fantasy, something you need to put time and effort in.

Not a despicable cashgrab lottery like FUT or one of the plethora of "Skinner Boxes" designed to keep the customer playing and paying.

[kevhamster]

25 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

But a friendly mode would be pointless...

A ranked mode, like mass fantasy football leagues, would probably be a decent enough approximation, with tiered leagues and matchmaking. However, even that for of "league" wouldn't solve the key problem of a FMOnline game.

Time and data load.

* Time: matches must be played, so there must be a timer or something. Like: Matchday #1 is on Wed, 8pm CET. And whoever isn't ready will either play with their most recent formation/lineup (if applicable) or will lose 2-0 by default.
Same for transfers, with contracts running out at set times (the can be monthly or "in-game" yearly etc), transfer windows opening and closing etc.

Basically the Hattrick model.

* Data: here's the issue... Hattrick is a very straightforward game with very little data and, AFAIK, no match engine. FM is a very heavy game, with a huge amount of data that requires processing both between games and during matches.
What kind of servers would SEGA need in order to keep all the MMO leagues running at the same time? Or should the processing happen locally on the users' machines to then upload that to the servers for updating etc? (and that'd slow things down immensely, as not every player has fast internet connection. And even those who have don't have much bandwidth in upload anyway).

I just don't see it being feasible...

FM is at heart THE single-player game. Its fanbase is a niche within a niche, surely one that doesn't overlap with the current "everyone wants to play online" gaming community. FM is a personal fantasy, something you need to put time and effort in.

Not a despicable cashgrab lottery like FUT or one of the plethora of "Skinner Boxes" designed to keep the customer playing and paying.

This sums it up pretty nicely.

And as others have stated, an online game was launched a few years ago.  It was ultimately a flop, and I don't see that being any different today - and I would imagine SI don't either, otherwise they'd be trying it again.