To Catenaccio and BEYOND!

[Porthos]

When I changed into this system I was already at a point where my team were reasonably successful with morale, squad harmony etc pretty much maxed out. That would have had a massive impact on getting the tactic going. Pre-match training is almost always set to Defensive Positioning. The teams that were most dangerous against me were those playing narrow, packed midfields - anyone with 5 in the middle and a defensive outlook would fashion some good chances against me, along with anyone who had an absolute superstar AMC.

My major problem was always from set pieces and the team's inability to clear the ball, which is why I started investing heavily in big, strong players.

Who knows then. I have my training set at Defending and Defend Set Pieces. I have Busquets, Mascherano and Pique playing in the defensive slots. I'm just giving away goals unrelated to the tactic - my left back will do a slide tackle and hit the ball across the 6yard box for their striker to tap in. These players with 18+ positioning are horribly out of position. My EG, SS and ML players do nothing. Only my striker and support from the CWB/DLP are getting me any attempts at a goal.

I will definitely need to tweak this, but I'm quite disappointed that a team like Barcelona is unable to adapt to this in the long run.

[Ackter]

I think the problem with Mascherano is that's he's tiny. So easily beaten in the air that he only really half fulfils his role requirements.

Don't most Barca players also have some more adventurous PPMs?

[Porthos]

I think the problem with Mascherano is that's he's tiny. So easily beaten in the air that he only really half fulfils his role requirements.

Don't most Barca players also have some more adventurous PPMs?

Well, we've only conceded 2 of these goals from the ball being in the air so far. The rest were on the ground.

Let's look at the PPM's

Pique: Plays way out of trouble, Marks tightly, dictates tempo, doesnt dive in, tries long passes.

Mascherano: Plays way out of trouble, short simple passes, stays back, dives into tackles, avoids weaker foot

Busquets: Plays way out of trouble, short simple passes, stays back, runs rarely.

I already see a difference between Pique and Mascherano, one dives in, one doesnt. Perhaps playing their way out of trouble is not letting them hit the long balls forward?

[Ackter]

Marks tightly could be a problem if you find him out of position often. None of the defensive triangle are meant to be doing that, they're meant to set up in their box and just stop attacks.

Plays way out of trouble could certainly be a key problem with all of them having it.

Who do you have in the DM slot and what are his PPMs?

[Porthos]

Marks tightly could be a problem if you find him out of position often. None of the defensive triangle are meant to be doing that, they're meant to set up in their box and just stop attacks.

Plays way out of trouble could certainly be a key problem with all of them having it.

Who do you have in the DM slot and what are his PPMs?

Usually Busquets at HB. Mascherano SW, Pique CD, Pogba DLP.

[Steve Odom]

Porthos, you should be hanged for trying this with Barcelona!

How's the recent run, Ackter?

[Ackter]

Erm, I've been pokémonning the last few days, haven't loaded up FM for a while

[Steve Odom]

Too bad. I find this so interesting, and a payback to the ME for all those matches we just couldn't get the edge..

[Ackter]

Already conceded more this season than I did the entirety of last season:

Perhaps not surprising when I've been suring up the attack as well, though it's easy to see this is a more effective team overall.

[Ackter]

Well that was a good place to stop to take the picture - in the two matches after both Arsenal and Liverpool absolutely did me

[Porthos]

Well that was a good place to stop to take the picture - in the two matches after both Arsenal and Liverpool absolutely did me

I know that feeling. Lost 6-1 to team in 17th. (See below) Lost to team in 19th the previous game.

Sigh.

[jcoll]

Would be interested to actually see how your games against the bigger sides pan out, would you be able to upload a match where you have very little shots compared to the opposition like the game against Man Utd where you had 1 shot on target. Thanks

[Niclas70]

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2014-tactics/147683-helenio-herrera-catenaccio.html

I made my version of Herreras Catenaccio as you can check out on fm-base.

Been playing with Napoli and it's working fine.

[Defensive]

Very curious how this works with the new update.

[Ackter]

I have no idea, I don't currently have access to the game and probably won't for a while as the current PC I'm using is struggling to load up web pages, let alone FM.

[Steve Odom]

I have no idea, I don't currently have access to the game and probably won't for a while as the current PC I'm using is struggling to load up web pages, let alone FM.

Install Linux, should help.

[Babak G]

What an inspirational thread. Has anyone been trying this with the new update?

Am going to try something inspired by this and keep people posted.

[Malicious Penguin]

Wow. I've laughed so much in reading this, it's inspired me to really try and create my own tactics, and play FM 'properly'.

But Catenaccio has never looked so appealing!

[sakrai]

This tactic is very satisfying, when it works.

I have been playing with it with Inter for about a season and a half, finished 2nd on the Serie A, 2nd best defence of the league with 25 goals conceded, Juve conceded 24. Here are some things I noticed:

The Goalkeeper often ignores the "Distribute to..." option, is that normal?

How well does your DLP performs for you? Mine is utterly unimpressive, questionable defensively and just ineffective offensively. My first choice DLP joined the team on the middle of our first season and he played 13(2) games, 721 passes attempted, 0 key passes.

The majority of our goals (19) came from the right flank, as expected. However, all players that played on the MR for me didn't impress. They were often deep and had to beat 2 players on their way. This position feels extremely dependant on a player that is very fast and a good dribbler.

Kovacic was our best player with 31(5) games, 8 goals, 13 assists, 31 key passes in the Shadow Striker role. Definitely could have scored more, I'll go into that later.

I'm not sure what the Striker's job is. If it is scoring goals, then mine have failed with 13 goals in 38(12) games between the two. I'm assuming their job is to hold the ball for the midfield runners, Belfodil made 20 key passes in 24(8) games the first season.

Our weakest point was the left flank, it was very hard to defend when the opposition attacked with a Winger and an overlapping Full Back. We conceded 10 goals on the left.

Sometimes, I felt very dependant on corners and free kicks to win games. I also felt vulnerable when defending them.

The biggest frustration for me is when my players fail to convert our few chances.

Do you make any changes during matches at all, Ackter? When I'm losing I feel really lost and I don't know how to comeback without drastically changing the formation.

[Ackter]

As mentioned above, I don't have access to the game at the moment so can't look it up for details.

If I remember correctly, the DLP was unspectacular overall no matter who I played there, but he did his job in passing the ball to someone else so they could work the magic. He was usually the "real" start of a move.

The biggest problem I had was in defending corners and free kicks, simply because the team I was using was set up as a quick passing game before that so I never needed a big, strong team. With catenaccio, your guys needs to be beasts everywhere on the pitch as they're all expected to defend (my exception was the MR, who stayed forward at all times).

My MR/AMR was always one of my better performers. Loads of assists, plenty of goals etc. I'd never really describe him as being too deep often, though it would depend on the opposition's setup at times.

The left flank is the weakest point of catenaccio imo, and you need someone special both on the flank and in the DLC position to make it work.

I rarely make any changes during matches, though most of the changes you see happen in this thread were done first in a match where I felt they were needed and then changed permanently outside of the match.

[KongeMeier]

Came into this thread curious - left inspired!!

After reading articles on Herrera's Catenaccio I think it's time to create 'Grande Rovers' at Blackburn!

[vitri0l]

Well bit late finding this but just have to say excellent read..inspired me to attempt a similar tactic and in my test season with united its working wonders..nice and nasty and grinding teams down before blitzing them in the last 15 minutes Raphael at lwb is unbelievable for me.

[Bobby_Zamora]

I want Ackter's youth factory. Look at that right mid

[kun^^]

[Mutumba]

Ive got two questions:

1. Does this tactic work with the latest patch?

2. Is there a download link?

[RTHerringbone]

1. If you use it correctly, then yes, it will

2. No

3. Everything you need to know is contained in the thread, but what you also need to know is the Ackter built this around his squad

[Joey Numbaz]

This thread is awesome ... took some tinkering, but I'm using the final tactic now and it's working pretty well with Everton. I was able to upgrade a few players with a new owner, but much of the core is still in tact. I've made the Champions League two years running (2013-14 and 2014-15).

Here's my first 'classic' example like some of those shown above ...

EDIT ... Hmm, looks like I can't upload an image. It's a basic jpg, any reason why?

[Dark Demon]

This thread is awesome ... took some tinkering, but I'm using the final tactic now and it's working pretty well with Everton. I was able to upgrade a few players with a new owner, but much of the core is still in tact. I've made the Champions League two years running (2013-14 and 2014-15).

Here's my first 'classic' example like some of those shown above ...

EDIT ... Hmm, looks like I can't upload an image. It's a basic jpg, any reason why?

Untick the box below the space you paste the link for the image in and it should work

[Joey Numbaz]

Under posting permissions it says "You may not post attachments" ... is there a reason why? Is there somewhere I can request permission to post them?

I don't see a box to uncheck when I try to post the image.

Thanks for your help.

[Generation-Next]

You have to upload it to the net, then post the image link in tags

[Joey Numbaz]

Thanks ... but wow, that's about as un-user friendly as anything I can think of. What is the point of that?

[Joey Numbaz]

[PhroX]

That is beautiful

[Joey Numbaz]

The goal was a beautiful a sweet volley from Baines in the box :-)

[Joey Numbaz]

The 2% opponent crosses completed was pretty great too. Only 5 fouls is nice too. The low fouling of this tactic is especially great for the Champions League where you can lose key players to accumulated cards if you aren't careful.

I could still use a good corner technique though. I've tried to put my taller players in ... I'm training John Stones as a sweeper, I moved Jagielka to kind of a super-sub DC/DR and dropped Javi Garcia (a signing) back from DM to DC with Distin so I can play a bigger lineup. I was able to sign Leandro Demaio as a striker for 6 million which gives me another tall guy. And I signed Victor Valdes to play goal on a free ($10mm/yr though) which has really helped too.

[Joey Numbaz]

Wow ... I've tweaked a few things specific to opponent, like having the DR and DCR hold their positions when playing a team with a lot of assists on their left (my right), or vice versa for the DCL when the opponent scores on the left.

Also, I flipped the tactic around, basically reversing everything, so I have a WBR and a DL and ML, etc. Now I choose which tactic to use based on the opponent and which players are rested. I think FM2014 wants you to change tactics from time to time and this helps with that.

So it's 2015-16 at Everton and I've just knocked of Real Madrid, two time defending Champions League champs in the quarterfinals, 0-0 home and 1-1 on the road. Crazy psyched at how well this is working. That was after upsetting Barcelona 0-0 and 2-0 in the round of 16. For the second game of that tie I went with a more aggressive tactic to start though, just had a hunch that changing it up would work. Once I scored I flipped back to this tactic, and then I went even *more* defensive, switching to contain, drop very deep, low tempo, etc.

Here are the stats from Game 2, at Real Madrid ...

[Joey Numbaz]

I have no idea why the image isn't showing, but if you right click the ? icon you can see the stat image. Strange.

EDIT - Fixed, 4.3 years later ...

[Jimbokav1971]

This thread is simply stupendous.

I'm a bit gobsmacked by it to be honest. I never realised that this type of thing was even possible. I have absolutely no knowledge of Catenaccio, (so thanks for the history lesson), but by far the most impressive thing is the way that you initially describe what you think it was, and then go to create it, (even if you had to work and re-work different bits). I knew you had done something like this, (negative tactics), but I never realised there was a thread until now.

Tsakogiannis is pants. (Oops. Didn't realise he was so young). Still, how are you conceding so few goals with him!

Balanta is cheating!

Wow! You meant Gylfi as the WB!

errr. How come you haven't got a son in this side? I thought you always had a son.

Love the bullying aspect of this. How do you manage bookings when you have such specialist players/instructions? (Or are the fouls not transferring to bookings?) (Oh ok. Just read that you just frustrate them into fouling).

Libero selection. You and Cleon are both picking strange players for Libero's. (That's strange to me not properly strange). The first one seemed slow, Cleon's one caused my brain to melt down and isn't Knowles lacking in physical ability? I thought physical ability was key for a Libero. No? (Positioning = Shudder).

I am blown away that you have got Gylfi playing as a WB.

7 goals! I thought I was a bit special with 14. pfft. What was the longest you ever went without conceding?

It's threads like this that remind me that although I think I might have done lots with this game, I have really only thought briefly about scratching the surface. Absolutely mind-blowing thread.

Thanks Ackter.

[Edit]

ps. You know what you really need to finish this off? My goal-scoring GK.

[Cleon]

The most important part of a Libero's game is attacking, so it makes sense to go all out on attacking attributes instead. A libero isn't really a physical role, it doesn't have to be that would be more a sweeper. A libero's role is demanding though.

[Joey Numbaz]

I used this a bunch back in FM2014, it's still probably my favorite tactic I've ever used in the game. I am trying to revive it now for FM2017. I love Ozil's Pep and Ajax tactics, but I've been looking for a creative way to deal with all of the 4-2-3-1s I face in the EPL. I think this might be it.

My first iteration, started mid-season, so it's not well learned by the team yet, especially the formation. One nice thing is that those Ozil tactics have led me to develop an extremely versatile squad, so plugging players in hasn't been too hard. I'm starting with the version from page 4 of this thread, posted November 27, 2013. It's a little more attacking. Back in the day I used the final version, which was ultra-ultra defensive instead of just ultra-defensive. But I have the players to make the slightly more positive version work I think.

Question - I've got Riechedly Bazoer and Brendan Galloway both training to be the sweeper - if I wanted to tweak the sweeper to be a Libero (Bazoer is absolutely good enough to play Libero, and I think Galloway, who I've already trained to be a complete wingback could handle it too), any suggestions for how I'd tweak the rest of the tactic? Do I even need to?

I'm looking at Pulisic to train to be the Complete Wingback on the left side too. Should be fun. But I'll only use it against the 3 and 4 man front lines for now, the Pep tactic still works pretty great, despite my team struggling a little of late, Juventus lined up in a 4-1-4-1 and I beat them on the road in a Champions League game.

[Joey Numbaz]

My first match was against Hull (4-2-3-1), with four FM2017 days of practice, after the Juventus upset.

We won 1-0, and pretty much dominated play. We didn't finish well, but put up 6 half chances to Hull's one clear cut chance and one half chance. Hull is terrible of course, but I was very happy with how it played defensively.

Also, unlike Ackter's early Newcastle squads, I have tall players everywhere, and take great care with positioning players on set pieces, so I'm not nearly as worried about giving up goals that way.

The passing map might be a little distorted because I subbed Galloway (WBL) out for Pulisic; Barkley (Enganche) out for Fossum and Iwobi (Defensive Forward) out for Haksabanovic at the 60' mark. But it's interesting how Bazoer wasn't too involved. I am not sure if Galloway is getting inside enough. You cannot give the Complete Wing Back "Cuts inside" as an instruction in FM2017; the Inverted Wingback only has support, not attack as an option (more on that in the next post). Galloway does have gets further forward as a PPM at least.

I also think the passing maps are interesting. Hull was pretty much forced to go sideways, my squad had more options (if I'm interpreting this correctly).

Our goal finally came in the 76th minute, Coleman with the bullet cross and Klaassen with the header.

(EDIT, I guess I can't figure out how to upload video here).

[Joey Numbaz]

Here are the options for Inverted Wingback Support and Complete Wingback Attack.

Ackter's instructions were Complete Wingback; Attack; Get further forward, shoot more often and cut inside with the ball. In FM2017 we can see much more of what is going on under the hood with each role/duty.

I can get the instructions down pretty well, although the IWB-S has:

• Same closing down
• More direct passing (but dropping him to 'shorter passing' makes his overall passing bar the same as the CWB-A)
• No option to cross from byline (not sure how important this is)
• Crosses less often the CWB-A (maybe good, we want him shooting, right?)
• More risky passes (not sure of the impact this would have either - it is default for the role, I cannot remove it).
• The key one - the mentality bar. The IWB-S has a much lower mentality than the CWB-A. How important is this?

I can add Get further forward; and sit narrower and Cut inside with the ball are default for the IWB-S role.

So the key I think comes down to the mentality to decide which option is better for this tactic.

[Wavelberry]

I got this working well with a tier 8 side in FM16 however found it really difficult to work as well on FM17 with the same side trying to follow the same fundamentals. Not sure why TBH

[Joey Numbaz]

20 hours ago, Wavelberry said:

I got this working well with a tier 8 side in FM16 however found it really difficult to work as well on FM17 with the same side trying to follow the same fundamentals. Not sure why TBH

Were your problems more leaky defense or not able to get the offensive chances? Which version of the tactic were you using?

I've played two more games with it, both 1-1 draws, against Watford and West Ham. I had 6 clear cut chances in the two games, gave up 3 clear cut and 2 half chances.

I think I might push on to the heavily defensive tactic Ackter finished up with, as my offense players may be good enough to create enough goals even with that tactic. Still not sure about the WBL either. He's not getting very involved at all. I turned off exploit the right flank, but that doesn't seem to be helping getting the WBL involved.

[Wavelberry]

Leaky defence. I was creating enough chances to win games early on but the defence leaked too quickly and then morale got shot. Couldn't nail the defensive side in FM17 at all (with this tactic mind you. With other tactics I defend okay).

[Joey Numbaz]

6 hours ago, Wavelberry said:

Leaky defence. I was creating enough chances to win games early on but the defence leaked too quickly and then morale got shot. Couldn't nail the defensive side in FM17 at all (with this tactic mind you. With other tactics I defend okay).

I am running into some of that too. The goal I gave up to West Ham was because McCarthy, the DMR-HB came way out of position to close down someone in the left side of the box, and someone else snuck in behind him for an easy goal. He's a very good defender, and he's already told to hold position by default with that role. And the team instructions say to stick to positions. I guess I could try changing to "Close Down Much Less" as a team instruction too. Still tinkering.

[Joey Numbaz]

On 11/26/2013 at 13:23, Ackter said:

Right, I thought I'd see just how far I could take this formation. Just how horrible could I be to the opposition? Just how frustrating can I make my team be to play against?

These are the changes I've made, to restrict the opposition all around the box, to let them have as much of the ball as they want as long as it's nowhere near my goal:

Well, this should probably answer that question:

My fans hate me, but I'm loving it.

And yes - I conceded a corner goal to even up the scores.

Bringing this back in FM18 ... so far I've tried all of Ackternaccio's variants, repeatedly playing to see which ones work best.

The version quoted above has been by far the best for me. I'm not exactly sure of why, but it seems to work. I probably played the same game 10x with this against a 4-1-2-2-1 DM Wide, and it rarely gives up any chances in games and I can usually snag a goal or two.

The one after it (the very rigid one), despite being even more negative, actually gives up a lot more chances and has less punch.

Boy do I miss a ton of point blank shots, CCC, striker one-on-one with the goalie and he shoots it right into the goalie's stomach. But this one seems workable. At least I am creating chances!

I had to make the CWB an IWB, because there's no way other PPM to get the CWB-A to cut inside otherwise. I've set the goalie up to distribute to the flanks as a SK-A, as opposed to trying to target the MR, I just never had much luck with that, even on the old version.

I am playing with Everton, so I do have Siggy! And Keane! But I still have Baines, so I am not sure if I should try to retrain Siggy back there as an IWB-A. It might be worth it, Baines is old.

I messed around a little with a Libero-Attack instead of a Sweeper-Defend, but I'm not sure if that is worth doing yet. Coleman is great as the DW and I'm using McCarthy as the FB on the right. Klaassen is a great SS and Sandro up top.

I experimented a little with the DLP in the midfield strata and didn't notice much of a difference, so I just dropped him back.

This does have some promise. If I don't get bored and give up tomorrow, I'll keep you guys posted.

[Wavelberry]

Always love trying this.

[Joey Numbaz]

I am trying to think of whether or not any of the new roles since 2014 could be added to this to spruce it up a little.

The DW ... basically he's just a winger that closes down more and tackles harder from what I can tell in the description - is there more to him than that? He doesn't really track back well to defend when he's the only player wide (no full/wingback).

If you make him a wideplaymaker, in this setup (Defensive/Rigid, etc.) his mentality stays the same, he closes down almost as much, you can tick tackle harder. But he adds sitting narrower, cutting inside, roaming. With shooting and crossing less often. That might be interesting. The Fullback on support would still provide some width.

I also thought about making the fullback a true defensive fullback on defend, sitting narrower. That seems like it was Burgnich's role but this seems to play better with the fullback on support.

Inverted WB was already discussed above (last year a few posts back). This time I am using IWB-A (as opposed to support). The player doesn't truly invert, because there is no wide man in front of him, but moving the Engache outside as an AP-A or AP-S doesn't seem to work as well, for me anyway. Baines still cuts inside some and gets 3-4 shots a game off from the top left corner of the box, but my heat maps aren't as pretty as @Ackter's with Siggy, and Baines does have the gets further forward PPM. He's too old to teach to cut inside from the left wing ... but Ademola Lookman? He might be just the guy to retrain back there. Right-footed, already cuts inside from both wings, runs with ball often, knocks ball past opponent at 20 years old. Is defense really not important at all in that position? 3 marking and 5 tackling and 7 positioning ... yikes. Going to need a monster DCL methinks if I do that.

 

[Joey Numbaz]

And of course, the Libero. The sweeper is really important, especially when you are playing against a target man striker, but making an attacking Libero work in this would be pretty fun.