Match Engine Update 13.1.3 - quick overview. ME feedback here please.

[Guest]

I've always found that if I act in FM like I think a real manager would it works out okay, FM allows you to obsess over things no real manager would and too many people make the mistake (imo) of doing just that.

For instance, if I pay millions for a winger I assume he knows how to play on the wing, so I give him a role and leave him to it.

I don't give him loads of individual instructions because I shouldn't need to, it works for me.

I'm the opposite. When I have a weak player I try to keep it as simple as possible, so he doesnt screw up, and a good player I try to make it more complicated and expect more from his role and try to use his strengths.

Thats basically what I do, I start off with pretty much the basic tactic in lower league with out any real changes then tinker it every year as my players get better.

But yeah, your probably right. You would think it would be the other way round. Good players should know what to for the best, thats how they became good.

[RTHerringbone]

Jesus. If they change the match engine, then by default, you need to change your tactics; is it that hard to fathom?

The ME is the mechanics of the game, the logic, the brain. If it is patched to improve the attacking or defensive phases of play, the it's fairly obvious that the tactics that worked pre-patch are likely to need adjustment post-patch.

We can't have it both ways: "the game is broken, this that and the other is happening and it shouldn't"

Patch released: "the game is broken, this that and the other isn't happening any more, and it should".

[Macshimmy]

Over two saves I've conceded 4 times and had 9 chances against because of my full backs throwing the ball straight to the opposition. This is over the course of 39 Premier League games played, and all the throw ins have been deep inside my own half. I've tried all the throw in options (quick, long, short) and I always have two or three players close by where the throw in is. My throw in taker instead decides to throw the ball 15 yards to their player.

I've never had the pleasure of experiencing misplaced throw-ins in my favor. Seems like when the game decide that it's time to have me lose points, I get the throw in.

Discuss.

Agreed. I'm also seeing a hell of a lot of goalkeeper passes to their midfielders (with none of my players the obvious target)

as well as punches straight to opposition players. It's bizarre, they aren't in high pressure situations, but the keeper just seems oblivious to the danger,

whereas the opponent treats it as though it was a through ball he was expecting.

I've scored a few that way as well.

My centrebacks seem compelled to rush any winger with the ball despite their pressing being set to "own area." and my fullback already closing them down.

The corner flag isn't really 'their area', not when there are strikers to mark

They quite often get there before the full-back, who then runs back to play the opposing striker onside , invariably resulting in the cross floating in for a completely unmarked tap-in.

Vexing.

[Guest]

I noticed though, in older FMs (I havent really messed around with this one much) that I found it almost impossible to get my players to do what I wanted them to do and translate it on to the ME. Like even so much as get my keeper to pass where I tell him and not just boot it everytime. Tell him to pass long, he goes long, tell him to go short, he still goes long, tell him to pass to the defender he goes long,..

I want my midfielder to attack but he defends, so I switch to all out attack, he still defends, so I switch to all out defense he defends as if I never changed anything to start with..

Man marking, looks exactly as zonal, Closing down.. Have the slider to the top looked no different to putting it all the way down the bottom..

D-line.. Pushed up is the same as sit back.. Not in the results, but on the ME. Put the d line sliders to suicide and you will lose, even though it looks exactly the same..

I know I have to put the sliders in the right place, as I wont win, but I also know it wont look any different on the screen. I can win the premier leafgue having my sliders one way, but move one one notch to the left and my star striker goes from leading goalscore to season long drought.

Infact trying to get what I want to play out in the ME is irratating as it seems completely ineffectual.

And its counter productive, fiddling with a ME that isnt linked to my tactics just ruins my tactics.. I'm winning most games but I'm not happy that my defence play the way they do on the ME, so I change it and now I lose every game and it looks no different anyway

Thats why I prefer to do what I did pre 2D circles running around, turn it off aand imagine my team play like barcer every week.

[MacZidane]

Jesus. If they change the match engine, then by default, you need to change your tactics; is it that hard to fathom?

.

Well yes, that would be the case were it changed. As it is, it was merely updated, therefore only minor tweaking should, at most, be needed to a previously successful tactic. Many people have told of how their tactics are still working pre and post update.

My own beef with it was I had to change to a completely different formation, despite the one I previously had working fine and being better suited to the squad I had. Even my AM now says my old formation is the best for my team.

The previous poster is onto something when he said...

Shouldnt it be your tactics that decide some of these 'fixes' not the ME. It kind of feels like the ME pretty much decideds it for you. I always felt my tactics were pretty much ignored as it was the ME that decided most of what happens..

When the game first came out, I was impressed the way you felt as though you were in control, rather than finding ways to beat the ME, since the change, it's swung the other way, and in turn became more like the last few editions.

Of course, fundamentally, it's technically all about beating the ME, as it's a game after all, not real life, but the realism is derived from the illusion of being in control of your destiny, something incredibly difficult to replicate synthetically in this particular field. And yes, I realise how wanky that last sentence sounds.

[Geomancer]

With the patched ME I have seen three own goals (in less than ten matche) in which the central defender goes back to get the ball and the keeper goes forward, and for a strange reason the defender always get the ball "passed" to goal.. I haven't seen a similar own goal in two and a half years of prepatch ME.

Other than that, I don't see much problem with the new ME, I had to make some really small player adjustements, stuff like long shots on strikers that prepatch didn't shot from long range, and now seem to shot a lot from outside.

[Mensell76]

Alright here are my two cents on ME 13.1.3 and the ME in general. Compared to the previous ME the latest patch is a giant leap in the right direction:

- Pressing and tacking are both a lot better

- Anticipation and interceptions by defenders overall is a lot better now

- There is more variety in the play overall

- Lesser opponents are not capable of Barcelona type of football

Are there issues in the current ME? Yes one or two:

- Indeed shots on the goal are marginally less compared to real life but compared to FM 2012 (where players kept hitting long range shots no matter the instructions) this is a good step in the right direction

- Wingbacks in my opinion track the attackers a bit too much. I do not think they need to tackling a lot more but physical play (pushing, should to shoulder, blocking a shot) should occur more.

- Too many own goals mainly because the defender tries to clear a possible close range ccc from a striker by tackling at him from behind

- Hardly ever a goal scored out of direct free kicks, neither by my team or AI

Now I have faulted SI for releasing the first ME as where it obviously was not ready enough. But for the rest I can only fault SI for not positioning FM 2013 well enough prior to release. Because in all honesty SI delivered exactly what their core customer (I count myself in this group) has wanted for many years:

1. A harder more difficult game in which:

2. Super tactics making abuse of the ME's flaws are a lot harder to create

3. the tactic has to be designed based on the group of players you have. In previous FM's no matter which club at what level you managed, as soon as you had found that killer tactic it would win you trophees at every club regardless the group of players. In many ways we wanted tactics to make sense in relation to the squad we manage.

4. Weather conditions and travelling (european football) really have an effect on your matches and results

5. AI teams are a lote more clever and actively taking part in our matches both in defending and attacking our teams.

I am absolutely 100 percent sure that if SI had explained their intentions with FM2013 for instance starting from july on we would have applauded them and had given them the full backing in doing so.

To a certain extent I now feel sorry for SI that so many of us are not seeing the fantastic direction in which SI is taking this game. There is a lot of unproportional slatting going on, unfortunately that is a knock on effect because of the rough and not very likeable first ME.

So how is it possible that I have turned from the group who did not enjoy FM to the group who love it?

The answer is: I have abandoned all my previous FM experience and knowledge and just started to watch this ME and think and act as a real rooky manager.

This match engine more than ever or better for the first time shows the wrongs in my tactical approach. And because it really shows me the wrongs I managed to eventually get it right.

Based on my FM knowledge I started FM 2013 with the inspirational view that fast paced attacking quick dominating football would be the way to go. Who does not want to manage a team that playes like Barcelona right? So I immediadetely started building an attacking fluid tactic with quite a few players on an attacking mentality and running deep a lot. Next to that I wanted shorter passing and pressing all over the pitch to get that dominant flowing football going. And guess what, my tactical approach was counter productive. I ran into and was frustrated by all the mentioned problems: my players were only passing the ball around and opponents (even the ones with low reps) were quite easily cutting through my defense and scoring. Clean sheets seemed impossible, dull matches were quite common.

And my opposition instructions did not help to get my team to perform consistent. My results felt random and uncontrollable. And yes with the new patch I also had loads of injuries at first.

It took me half a season full or irritation and struggling to realise that this ME holds all answers to my problems. This ME to me revolves around what modern day football is all about: creating space for your players to be brilliant. My tactic with the attacking attitude of most of my players led them to walk into each others space too much, leaving too many man in front of the ball and too few passing options. And the idea of pressing all over the pitch was just dumb because I have lots of technical skilled players (Wilshere, Neymar, Carloza, Falcao, Ramsey, Wallcot) but not very skilled in pressing and winning balls.

It gave the AI teams room and time to hurt my out of position team.

So after many losses and hardly ever a clean sheet I went back to the drawing board and made some real managerial/coaching decisions:

1. I set all my players except my two strikers to closing down on own half. This resulted in more compact pressing and once the ball has been won my players have the quickness and technical skills to hurt the opponent in the counter attack (with that I do not mean I have ticked the box on counter attack)

2. To add to that idea I dropped down my defensive line to below normal and the mentality of most of players to normal as well. Again this was all designed to give my fast attackers the room to shine.

3. Due to my signing policy based on getting technically gifted players (I really only have one ball winning midfielder M'Vila) I also came to realise that a balanced control strategy was much more sufficient in being dominant (my team does not have the ball winning skills for a directer approach). My team has the sheer passing power to control a match in the final third and the superb attackers to score the few chances they get.

4. I decided to put these thoughts into a tactic that gives my attacking midfielders (Wilshere, Carloza, Kagawa) and strikers (Neymar, Falcao) the room to shine. So basically I have 6 supporting players whose task consist of balancing the tactic and bringing the ball to my creative 4 man. It is a very unconventional tactic (3-1-2-2-2) but it works perfectly because it fits my group of players and there is a fine balance between defense and attack.

5. Since I realised that I was not doing great in opposite instructions I decided to sign a tactical brain as my assistant manager (Cruyff) and let him do those instructions.

A superb managerial choice

Now you know where to this story leads After I had set up a logical tactic fitting with my players the success starting to come: scoring more goals, conceding less, resulting into runs of wins etc. My team is at the top of the Premier League (23 matches 53 points, 55 goals scored, conceded 21), has qualified for the next round in the CL, and is in the finals of the League Cup.

Funnier is that now I am hardly seeing weird football anymore in the ME. I actually see a lot of clever defending and attacking by my team and often by the AI teams. I see some great matches against better teams. I have had to overcome the typical slump of form in which all of a sudden my super players became normal human beings again. During a slump my team its matches are atrocious and frustrating to watch. And I love it, that is what a bad spell does. And how did I overcome that slump? By remaining calm and not start fiddling with my tactics. I just focused more on attacking training and defensive positioning. Next to that I talked to my key players.

The fun part to me, the slump of form started after an away match in Russia on an icey pitch. A repeat of last year when I had to play Dynamo Kiev in dire conditions. Weather and travelling really can have a negative effect on how your teams play. These details are what makes this game feel lifelike.

Basically I am really enjoying this game more than ever because I feel like I am really acting like a manager and growing in my role. And I like it because SI has taken this game into the direction so many of use hoped it would. I have said it before but this year FM's slogan should be:

"Everyone can be a manager but only a few of us will succeed"

It is really up to us if we become the new Van Gaal, Mourinho, Ferguson, Hiddink, Klopp or Guardiola or if we stay just ordinary managers. They key is in the ME, whether we like it or not.

[MacZidane]

Post of the year. Well said mate.

[wwfan]

@Mensell76: Superb post and analysis. Glad you wrote it. Now I don't have to.

[DMX]

Mensell76 what a excellent post that was, i don't agree with some of the points you made but that was one of the most compelling posts i have seen in kind of explaining how SI are thinking with this new version you have kind of gave me food for thought

[Osmium]

I thought players not reacting had been fixed[video=youtube;KWijjf5HRK8]

[Charco]

I don't want to offend anyone here but may I say that selective bias is very prevalent in this thread.

Some posters tend to agree with any post that agrees with their views. And that applie to those who trhink the ME is **** or almost perfect.

[MacZidane]

Some posters tend to agree with any post that agrees with their views

No. Really?

[Osmium]

Im not here to bash SI as i enjoy playing the FM series & cant see myself ever not enjoying them. BUT, i still cannot understand why sloppy ME animations/bugs that were not in previous games are in this version (pre & post patch). Surely all that was good in FM 12 ME should be kept & developed further.

Im gonna post 2 more videos showing sloppy goals conceded. I like a challenge from the AI, but losing games to silly goals is just frustrating. Especially in the business end of the season when hours have been invested & points ca determine promotion/relegation/europe etc..

Its all too random, it appears 90% of the time the players respond to the ball (i mean basic 2 yards away in your 6 yard box), but sometimes it feels the game is scripted (ie my defender watches the ball 2 yards next to him while a striker 10 yards away rushes in to score)

Anyway i just think the players are not all responding in a dynamic fashion & the game just doesnt feel right (again only about 10-20% of the time). I truly feel more defensive animations are required to help represent what im sure the game processes as a logical event.

Here are 2 clips for what its worth, as i dont know if the issues above can actually be fixed[video=youtube;LNHIxIlYUZg]

[video=youtube;q1IHbVIyTLI]

[Charco]

In reply to MacZidane... Yeah... Really.

You know what I really (!) meant... People don't seem to accept contrary views may have some validity. )Its almost

2am on a Sat night/Sun Morning... Please forgive me for not been completely clear in the point I wanted to make!

Contructive discussion only happens when people accept that other people may have valid points. And that hasn't happened a lot in this thread. Some people are more culpable than others...

[wwfan]

Yeah... Really.

Contructive discussion only happens when people accept that other people may have valid points. And that hasn't happened a lot in this thread. Some people are more culpable than others...

There are three different perspectives in this thread.

1: ME is perfect (maybe one or two posters)

2: ME is awful, terrible, worst ever, OMG!!!!!, ROTFL at that!!1!1!

3: ME has issues, but is structurally far superior to any ME that has preceded it. If you aren't appreciating it, seeing lots of silly decisions or really struggling, then it is probably something you are doing rather than the ME itself

Taking into account the different sensitivity about bugs and the emotional responses FM engenders, the key motivation is to try and persuade the second group that if they accepted they may be at fault and listen to a bit of advice, then maybe they'd be having less frustration. Some more reflective people have done that and turned the corner. Others just get mad and rant.

[MacZidane]

Im gonna post 2 more videos showing sloppy goals conceded. I like a challenge from the AI, but losing games to silly goals is just frustrating. Especially in the business end of the season when hours have been invested & points ca determine promotion/relegation/europe etc..

Its all too random, it appears 90% of the time the players respond to the ball (i mean basic 2 yards away in your 6 yard box), but sometimes it feels the game is scripted (ie my defender watches the ball 2 yards next to him while a striker 10 yards away rushes in to score)

IMO, the Jelavic goal you posted has nothing wrong with it, he was simply quicker to get the shot in ahead of the defence.

The Pienaar goal, I can see where you're coming from, but coincidentally, I'm currently watching Everton v Norwich on match choice and Naismith's goal is kinda similar in that Oviedo drills in a low cross and Naismith is there reacting to it whereas the defence looks leaden footed.

Sometimes it can be easy to let your frustrations think there's a problem with the game, but real life scenarios throw up these type of occurrences all the time.

I've not played FM12 seriously for ages now. I can't remember the ME in that game really being any better in that regard than the current one. I seem to remember all sorts of awful defending there too. Perhaps not.

[MattyOlav]

IMO, the Jelavic goal you posted has nothing wrong with it, he was simply quicker to get the shot in ahead of the defence.

The Pienaar goal, I can see where you're coming from, but coincidentally, I'm currently watching Everton v Norwich on match choice and Naismith's goal is kinda similar in that Oviedo drills in a low cross and Naismith is there reacting to it whereas the defence looks leaden footed.

Sometimes it can be easy to let your frustrations think there's a problem with the game, but real life scenarios throw up these type of occurrences all the time.

I've not played FM12 seriously for ages now. I can't remember the ME in that game really being any better in that regard than the current one. I seem to remember all sorts of awful defending there too. Perhaps not.

Isn't normal to receive 2+ goals every match like this...

I'm preparing videos and files to report this in bug forum

[MacZidane]

Fair do's, I think I'm gonnae have to load up FM12 again sometime soon to re-acquaint myself with how goals are scored in that version.

[Charco]

The potential of the ME is immense. Its not there yet though.

In other versions I have lurked on here, taken the advice, tweaked tactics and won the Champions Legue with Eastleigh (2010), Shelbourne (2011) and Sutton (2012).

At this stage, a lot of what happens in 2013 is pretty random. In an earlier post (I know there's not many!!) I made the point that despite consistant possession domination and CCC's I would still lose too many matches due to defensive mistakes/great goal/my players missing a lot of good chances. That happens IRL obviously...

But if the stats available consistantly indicate that you should be winning (Possession, CCC's, pass completion), how can you logically make tactical changes to change things? Any changes are trying to beat the ME and not the opposition and are down to luck...

I fully accept that SI wil have this sorted early in the new year but at the moment it is not an enjoyable game to play IMHO.

[MattyOlav]

1st goal: a poor cross that the defense din't even try to react.

2nd goal: again low reaction, also the 4 defenses runs backwards!

[video=youtube;vbLuK9kxWoA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbLuK9kxWoA

1st goal: Defender gives up automatically with no reason. Also goalkeeper is bad

2nd goal: 2 defenders with zero reaction and running backwards.

[video=youtube;b4e6WzqkYAU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4e6WzqkYAU

Goal: Defenses didn't know what to do

[video=youtube;1V9AhWoTg0o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V9AhWoTg0o

[gmilitao]

any official position to SI Games about this thread, no fixes, big fixes coming...?

[urprobablyright]

I've been playing fm2013 for a few weeks now, since the day of it's release on steam, and have clocked up 143 hours thus far, on top of thousands of hours spread over the FM games released since 2007.

In all, I think fm2013 is a fantastic edition of the game; in almost every conceivable area there appears to have been improvement. I love being able to put an emotional spin on my press conferences, I love the new training system, I adore the meeting one takes with club chairmen. This said I'm not sure about Harry Redknapp's stats.

Anyways, this thread is about the one thing with which I have a genuine problem. I hate the way you guys have done the Match Engine this year.

Now, don't get me wrong, I like the fluent moves and passing - they are flashy and realistic - but I detest how all of the goals result from horrendously obvious pre-set plays.

If I am watching a match unfold and a highlight opens up with my goalkeeper lining up to take a kick, I know that chances are that I'm about to concede. 90-10% likely.

I know that my GK is going to distribute the ball to my left back as I have told him to, that the left back will get stuck down the line trying to pass it to my left winger, and ignore perfectly open players in the middle of the pitch. I know that eventually my left back will try a hail mary pass to the center of the pitch and the opposing team will take possession, that one of my center backs will have taken an inexplicable 10m jog up the field leaving a massive gap in defense and that their striker is going to suddenly get 20/20 accel/pace, burn past my defender and finish past my keeper from 30 yards out.

It's infuriating to know what's about to happen to your team the instant a highlight starts up, because you like to think that your team's chances are based on the skill and training of your players, rather than a random pre-set play that has been built in to the engine just to make counter attacks look more flashy.

I know that in previous games, players would occasionally simply stop running 3m from the ball and wait for an opposition player to streak by and steal posession from them, but that didn't happen three times a match. There is serious need for more polish here!!!

----------------

This engine is a fantastic advancement on last editions in terms of fluidity of play and realism of attacks, but it is a huge drop off in the core values of the FM series - the idea that astute signings and good managing is what you need, not just blind luck that the game's virtual coin-toss won't fall on the "opposition to score" side.

When you first released the 3D game engine, you released a series of patches that addressed the shortcomings of the engine bit by bit. I am requesting that you release a patch that somehow takes out a bit of the pre-set BS. Turns it down a bit.

[Osmium]

Thats it. Im done giving this game the benefit of the doubt because this ME is just not good enough full stop. Yes there are improvements but defenders reaction to the ball is killing my season & i feel i have invested wasted time on this game. I can get over a bad cash investment but wasted cannot be regained/earned like cash.

I dont want gimmicks, i dont want unlockables, i dont want DOF (pointless coz they cannot do anything as good as the human player anyway).

What we want is a game that plays like real football.

The depressing thing is these issues didnt happen last year. How can you charge £30 for what i consider a worse product. Matches are not fun, tactics dont mean anything, as you could beat man u 3-0 with fulham, then lose 6-0 next game to a team adopting the same tactics with worse players. Conceding goals should be due to tactical mistakes, individual errors (less often) or skill from the attacking team, NOT BUGGY DEFENDING.

I dont want to be a game tester constantly uploading bugs on the forum. I dont want to buy a game released for season 2012-2013 but isnt fully up to scratch 2/3 into the season. I honestly feel SI are getting complacent due to lack of competition in this genre. Seriously i dont pay £30 to be a game tester.

After how many iterations of having a 3d / 2d match engine you would think that in 2012-2013 defenders wouldnt be moonwalking away from a pass played into their vicinity, its actually quite ludicrous t watch. I have tried my best to ignore these bugs but tonight was the straw that broke the camels back. I am done with FM until these issues are fixed.

Watch these clips and tell me its my tactics or some other excuse. We all know SI got complacent adding gimicky features & forgot it was match day that made this franchise so amazing

Im really upset as a loyal customer since cm 9798, i honestly feel this is the worst version to date

[Osmium]

[video=youtube;ya8VZY4UXBw]

[video=youtube;vbGfW8WkiVo]

[Osmium]

Look at what you guys have done to FM. http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B0097662GO/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

the customer reviews are not great reading

[bonnieprince]

Look at what you guys have done to FM. http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B0097662GO/ref=cm_cr_pr_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

the customer reviews are not great reading

I think it's just the classic people catastrophising everything and posting just as something annoying has happened. I think the big issue is that unlike most games, you don't have full control of your character (eg, FIFA, or MW2, you tell your guy to move right, he does it), so when something goes wrong people want to blame the game itself.

I'll be honest, I enjoy FM13 and you aren't ever going to please everyone. I'm enjoying the revamped ME, and of course it has a few problems, but overall I think it's moving in the right direction and is certainly playable. I've found that most of my teams mistakes are pretty minor, and major ones don't seem to occur too much more than in real football.

[urprobablyright]

hey, mod, fair enough my post should have been here but you could at least have copied my bloody text over to this freaking thread before nuking mine

[Kriss]

hey, mod, fair enough my post should have been here but you could at least have copied my bloody text over to this freaking thread before nuking mine

I'm not your secretary, if you read a little before posting there wouldn't have been a need.

Anyway you're in the right place now, enjoy

[Fancy Gaffot]

Just had a player get 2 yellow cards for the same foul (probably arguing?), should I report it as a bug? I mean it can happen in real life but extremely unlikely.

[nowi41]

Totally agree!!!!!

I hope somebody from SI reads your comment! They must print it and paste in every programmer and designer office!

Bravo！！！

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Man this forum needs to be updated a bit,I put someone on ignore and still have to read his dribble when someone quotes his post.

Ditto.

xxx

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Jesus. If they change the match engine, then by default, you need to change your tactics; is it that hard to fathom?The ME is the mechanics of the game, the logic, the brain. If it is patched to improve the attacking or defensive phases of play, the it's fairly obvious that the tactics that worked pre-patch are likely to need adjustment post-patch.

We can't have it both ways: "the game is broken, this that and the other is happening and it shouldn't"

Patch released: "the game is broken, this that and the other isn't happening any more, and it should".

Not according to wwfan.

[PinkYoshi]

i simply cannot enjoy it at this time. there is far too many gambreaking bugs that effect the outcome of matches, and its way too frustrating to play the game through.

[Welshace]

Thats the thing that I dont like about the ME.. Its always the same every year. You make a tactic, it works, they change the ME and it doesnt work anymore. So you change it to suit, they change the ME again, and its rendered completely useless.. How can that be? How can your tactic take you from winning every game to losing every game just by downloadinga patch?

You are suppose to design your tactic to beat the opposition and play the style of football you want, but what you really have to do is design a tactic that beats the ME or works well for the ME.. which obviously real managers dont have to worry about.

Even reading somes of the fixes like, increase amount of shots, decreased amount of crosses, or whatever.. Shouldnt it be your tactics that decide some of these 'fixes' not the ME. It kind of feels like the ME pretty much decideds it for you. I always felt my tactics were pretty much ignored as it was the ME that decided most of what happens..

Distinct failure to understand what an ME is...

I'm getting bored of hearing how its 'all about beating the ME' ... no it really isn't... the ME merely provides the rules around which the game of football is played...

The ME is changed to create a more realistic environment for the game to be played within. Of course tactics need to be tweaked to suit (unless they were true to logic in the first place, which is what wwfan is always trying to explain).

IRL... if I came along and swapped your ball out in a 5 a side to a concrete ball... you'd need to change your tactics to compensate too..

SI are changing the ME to suit what their customers are saying to them... defending was broken, so they tweaked to make defending more viable.. and have done so successfully, the knock on effect of everything they changed is that shots are a bit lower than real life, which they mentioned upon released and told us they would work on it.

Saying that tactics should decide some of those fixes is completely misunderstanding what the ME is. When you find a successful tactic using logical football theories, you aren't breaking the ME.. you are doing exactly what the ME was designed for, and exactly what the game is about.

I cannot for the life of me understand how people are throwing their toys out of the pram and dismissing the game as outright broken when they can clearly see many people having great joy after creating their tactics again logically, and more than that, for the first time for many years of the game, actually feeling like it's an achievement for doing so. I know I am.

I implore everyone to read this:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/331344-Match-Engine-Update-13.1.3-quick-overview.-ME-feedback-here-please.?p=8320182&viewfull=1#post8320182

and take on board what he says... and try it yourselves.

Makes me sad to see people blindly and lazily bashing the game.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

There are three different perspectives in this thread.

1: ME is perfect (maybe one or two posters)

2: ME is awful, terrible, worst ever, OMG!!!!!, ROTFL at that!!1!1!

3: ME has issues, but is structurally far superior to any ME that has preceded it. If you aren't appreciating it, seeing lots of silly decisions or really struggling, then it is probably something you are doing rather than the ME itself

Taking into account the different sensitivity about bugs and the emotional responses FM engenders, the key motivation is to try and persuade the second group that if they accepted they may be at fault and listen to a bit of advice, then maybe they'd be having less frustration. Some more reflective people have done that and turned the corner. Others just get mad and rant.

I'm struggling to guess which one of those you come under! 3 maybe? The selective wording borders on propaganda. What about the whole raft of varying opinions between 2 & 3?

"If you aren't appreciating it, seeing lots of silly decisions or really struggling, then it is probably something you are doing rather than the ME itself" Are you even aware of what you are saying here?

[Welshace]

What he's saying is that it's likely most of the ridiculous things people are seeing are a direct result of bad decisions in their tactical setup... I fail to see what's hard to understand about that...

I would happen to agree.

The simple logic being that there are plenty of people who just aren't seeing some of the things people are complaining about.. which should tell you, it's something they are doing rather than the game.

I'm not in any way, saying the game is perfect and doesn't need tweaking, of course it does, but if 90% of the people complaining took some time and logically changed their tactics and setup, they'd see a huge change.

[MacZidane]

The ME is changed to create a more realistic environment for the game to be played within. Of course tactics need to be tweaked to suit (unless they were true to logic in the first place, which is what wwfan is always trying to explain).

.

Overall, I agree what you're saying, but I've still got a niggle with this. I can only use my own example, but surely if your team has no decent wide players, then a 4-3-1-2 is a more logical formation than a 4-4-1-1. I played the end of my season there with average players out wide, whereas I had superior central players before. And when your AM still insists your old formation is the one best suited for your team, you have to therefore question the game's logic rather than my own.

Anyway, I think bonnieprince got it spot on when he said...

I think it's just the classic people catastrophising everything and posting just as something annoying has happened. I think the big issue is that unlike most games, you don't have full control of your character (eg, FIFA, or MW2, you tell your guy to move right, he does it), so when something goes wrong people want to blame the game itself.

You speak to any football manager worldwide and he'll tell you the biggest frustration on match day is his players not following his instructions. As a manager, there's only so much you can do. If it was simply a case of your team winning and your defence not making any mistakes all the time because you have superior players and better tactics, then (to me anyway), the game would be incredibly dull. Previous versions have been like that hence people easily winning everything with tiny teams. It's not so easy this year (on the whole anyway), and that's solely down to an improved ME.

A lot of the videos I've saw posted pre-patch clearly saw big glitches and issues. What I have noticed is since the update, the majority of the posted videos show simple defensive errors rather than a problem with the actual game, and to me, that suggests real progress.

[Ackter]

People are mixing up formation and tactics again.

Pretty much any formation (within reason) will work if the tactics throughout that formation are solid.

[dazbowski]

Seeing far too many Red cards with normal settings, had 7 so far this season on normal tackling. All for two footed tackles.

[Ackter]

I'd suggest there's too much space in between your lines, meaning players are having to run and lunge due to being caught out of position often.

[shirajzl]

@Mensell76: Superb post and analysis. Glad you wrote it. Now I don't have to.

Even though he messes with sliders a lot and doesn't use default TC instructions/roles/duties?

[Porthos]

[video=youtube;gpcUIZx8cQQ]

Well then.

[DMX]

After having a bit of a rant last night and sleeping on Mensell76 comments i really do see now how i have been a stupid caveman with a club bashing the game because i did not understand it, today im firing FM13 back up and im going to read up in the tactics forum and take some advice on board and start my tactic from scratch and embrace the methods needed to succeed.

[wwfan]

Even though he messes with sliders a lot and doesn't use default TC instructions/roles/duties?

Yes, because he was willing to step back and think about football.

[wwfan]

After having a bit of a rant last night and sleeping on Mensell76 comments i really do see now how i have been a stupid caveman with a club bashing the game because i did not understand it, today im firing FM13 back up and im going to read up in the tactics forum and take some advice on board and start my tactic from scratch and embrace the methods needed to succeed.

You'll be welcome with open arms.

[Mensell76]

Even though he messes with sliders a lot and doesn't use default TC instructions/roles/duties?

Quite a wrong conclusion. I do not mess with the sliders a lot, I tweak the given settings.

After I went back to the drawing board I used the TC and build my new tactic completely from there, using the roles and duties applied in that TC standard. Next to that I basically set up my tactics along these two questions:

1. How do I want my team to play when we are in possession of the ball: controlling the opponent, carefully outplaying them and keep possession of the ball in order to minimise chances for the opponent to hurt my team)

2. How do I want my team to play when we do not have possession of the ball: compact, pressing on own half because it fits the defensive capabilities of my team better and enables my team to reactive attacking football whenever it is needed. I actually sort of welcome the opponent onto my own half whenever they are in possession, i give them room to play but the pressing will force them to be very accurate and quick in their decisions because it they fail my team will break out immediately.

Watching this ME gave me the opportunity to see what needed tweaking in both departments. Actually the TC and the tweaks are not rocket science. The TC is my starting point, then watching the ME I learn where the strengths and weaknesses of my team lie. Based on that I make tweaks both individually and in the team settings. That is all.

Design, Watch, Learn and Tweak are my ingredients to a creating a tactic that makes my team play pretty much the way I love football being played.

And to WWfan, thanks for your comment. It was a huge story I felt needed to write.

[master_wu]

weird trajectory

[wwfan]

The TC is my starting point, then watching the ME I learn where the strengths and weaknesses of my team lie.

My favourite sentence. Strengths and weaknesses of my team, NOT strengths and weaknesses of the ME. Look at that and apply football logic and I guarantee that you'll be a better FM manager than ever AND you'll begin to appreciate just what a step forward this ME is.

[Nico877]

Overload = no highlights for the remainder of the game.

I also believe that the value of strength needs to be reduced. It's too powerful as it is at the moment when it comes to strikers.