A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[Wakers]

In terms of "in a number of a potential ways" what do you refer to?

Steam application not working/crashing.

Not being able to sign in to Steam due to problems with your connection or theirs.

No telephone support.

Slow internet support.

Offline mode not reliable.

Automatically updating to latest version of FM, even if people don't want to update.

Having account hacked can result in temporary loss to games (and very rarely permanent, if you're not smart enough to keep receipts, or you also lose access to your email account.)

Technical support - If you have a game error, SI first have to figure out whether its a Steam issue or an FM issue.

[Smurf]

Can i make a suggestion.

I think Eugene posted thsi in the poll thread, but SI should make a blog detailed what Steam is, what it can do, what little resources it uses compared to other typical apps people use and things like that.

There seems to be lots of mis-information around and dare i say it but it seems to me that many of the complaints about steam come from the older generation (im 31 started out on an Atari, then PS1 and then onto PC).

Exactly.

All this malarky about Steam is just misnformed people that don't know any better. Teach someone to fish and they'll play FM12!

[Ceirdiff]

2dboy (the developers of World of Goo) did some research into these kind of things when developing their game. Ultimately they went against using DRM and found similar piracy statistics to DRMed games. What they concluded was that if someone pirates your game then they are unlikely to purchase it if they are prevented from pirating.

[jpwild]

Most people who play the game before the official release date (I'm not including those few naughty retailers who send things out early!) will be playing pirated copies.

If this stopping people playing before the release date reduces piracy then yes that will be a reason why we're doing this.

What?

What I am saying is that is this method that you are now implementing a way to stop people playing their legally bought copies before the official release date. I.e a retailer selling early and God forbid a fan of your product actually buying it and then obviously playing it a couple of days early as has been the case for many years.

Please don't link that to piracy in any way what so ever - they are two separate issues so don't blur them.

[Smurf]

Thanks for the suggestion Siven - we'll look into it.

It was my suggestion. I want full credit and Royalties! You can access me through Steam only though.

[Guest]

Hi David,

Can you estimate the amount of illegal copys will be reduced? in a previous post you said that now it's about 25% of illegal copys... with this method... do you have an estimate?

Edit: Just re-read the OP & now it makes sense, it was a 'what if..' scenario, I withdraw my cheap shot.

[Lazaru5]

there are no privacy or security issues with steam, no more so than any internet application, if you think otherwise your really kidding yourself on laz.

any program that connects to the internet for any reason is a potential privacy or security risk, I am very strict in which software I allow to access the internet, even to the point that I won't use "automatic updates" - Steam auto-updates.. oops another reason to not install the junk

I see that what we have here are people who *think* they know what they're talking about (when they know nowt) and those who do know what they're talking about and trying to hide the negatives... either way, I won't install steam...

[Bertie BG]

What?

What I am saying is that is this method that you are now implementing a way to stop people playing their legally bought copies before the official release date. I.e a retailer selling early and God forbid a fan of your product actually buying it and then obviously playing it a couple of days early as has been the case for many years.

Please don't link that to piracy in any way what so ever - they are two separate issues so don't blur them.

Hey, I've already said earlier in the thread that I wasn't involved in the discussions so don't know the exact reasonings behind things. All I meant is that it makes sense that, if it's felt that stopping people playing early will reduce piracy, then that would likely have been a factor in the decision.

Piracy is a massive problem in our industry and seriously affects Football Manager as a series. The motivation behind all of this is trying to combat that and it's felt that making this move will do so

[Wakers]

You can't say there are no security or privacy issues with Steam. It is based on the internet, ergo, it has security and privacy issues. How big they are depends on each person.

[Chris Waddle]

Ah well. I wasn't convinced about getting this version anyway. This news was just the final nail in the coffin. My FM computer is not connected to the internet and I have no intention of doing so, not even just to activate the game.

I'd like to thank SI for the fun over the years, I think my time with their games is at an end.

[Blackwolves]

A very very bad day in FM history

[pigfacemonkeyman]

There is some real bizarre logic in this thread. Simply put we're running with Steam for this release. If you don't like it, we're sorry but it's not going to change for this release. If you don't want to buy the game simply because you don't want to have to use Steam then you won't buy the game. I don't know why some people are arguing over the fact they're not going to buy the game? Either you are or you aren't, there's not much we can do about that other than reassure you that we feel Steam is the best choice for Football Manager.

Because, Neil, some of these people are sitting with tinfoil hats on as they post here.

It might have been best to not say anything and have Steam install when you install the game, then run in the background. I don't think anyone who is afraid of Steam would have noticed.

And this is?

How about this

If you have never installed Steam and you don't want to install steam well meet half way

How about you try it for a week and if you don't like it you can uninstall it? If you have any questions on how to use it, or to uninstall it just ask.

But if you're just not installing it because of irrational fears that it's a memory hog, slows down your computer, it's spying on you or anything like that, I can confirm that none of that is true.

Try it. You might actually like it. And if you don't uninstall it.

Where exactly is this halfway?

[Kriss]

One positive that will come from this is that many people who've never used Steam will do so, they'll then (like me) discover such forgotten wonders as Railroad Tycoon2 and Sid Meiers Pirates etc. at £2.99, and their joy will be wondrous to behold:D

[Smurf]

any program that connects to the internet for any reason is a potential privacy or security risk, I am very strict in which software I allow to access the internet, even to the point that I won't use "automatic updates" - Steam auto-updates.. oops another reason to not install the junk

I see that what we have here are people who *think* they know what they're talking about (when they know nowt) and those who do know what they're talking about and trying to hide the negatives... either way, I won't install steam...

Why are updates or automatic updates a problem? Most of the time they close security issues. Sometimes it's about a new feature.

But you can turn off automatic updates. And you can turn Steam to Offline mode once you've activated the game. So it won't update. It will sit there. It won't sit there judging you or anything.

[Dave80]

As far as privacy and security - surely 5 minutes to activate FM then putting it in "Offline Mode" would not compromise your privacy or security. For those paranoids out there that would be the best and only solution for you as David(SEGA) has said - they won't be changing the method of activation for the release.

Complaining about it now is fairly pointless, it won't change anything - either you are going to install it and be able to play, or you're not - and you'll miss out on FM12.

[7Bestie7]

One positive that will come from this is that many people who've never used Steam will do so, they'll then (like me) discover such forgotten wonders as Railroad Tycoon2 and Sid Meiers Pirates etc. at £2.99, and their joy will be wondrous to behold:D

Total sidetrack but Sid Meiers Pirates is the BOMB! I played the original on my old system and if that's on Stream, I take it all back SI.

[Smurf]

And this is?

Where exactly is this halfway?

Ok install half of it then?

It was aimed at people that have never tried it and think it will slow their system down.

if they install it and like it - then good. If they don't then uninstall it and no harm done.

Rather than saying they'll never install it without even trying it out.

Halfway.

[Siven]

It was my suggestion. I want full credit and Royalties! You can access me through Steam only though.

I did say it was your suggestion

Here have a hug

[milnerpoint]

any program that connects to the internet for any reason is a potential privacy or security risk, I am very strict in which software I allow to access the internet, even to the point that I won't use "automatic updates" - Steam auto-updates.. oops another reason to not install the junk

I see that what we have here are people who *think* they know what they're talking about (when they know nowt) and those who do know what they're talking about and trying to hide the negatives... either way, I won't install steam...

i really do feel sorry for you, your going to deny yourself a game you have loved for 20 years, as you have pointed out, because of your ignorance.

[Neil Brock]

Steam application not working/crashing.

Not being able to sign in to Steam due to problems with your connection or theirs.

No telephone support.

Slow internet support.

Offline mode not reliable.

Automatically updating to latest version of FM, even if people don't want to update.

Having account hacked can result in temporary loss to games (and very rarely permanent, if you're not smart enough to keep receipts, or you also lose access to your email account.)

Technical support - If you have a game error, SI first have to figure out whether its a Steam issue or an FM issue.

In relation to this we're pretty proud of our level of support so hopefully if people do have issues with Steam we can certainly try and help out. Also people can easily turn off 'auto-updates' for FM and Steam via the preferences.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

People will moan, regardless of what happens, it's human nature. Steam isn't that bad, honestly, you'll hate it due to the great wallet raping deals it does, and it will remind you of them(It's the only reason steam news pops up, new games and weekly/daily deals). Did i mention the great support and how kind valve is? They gave out FREE copies of left for dead when infinity ward ballsed up with a modern warfare 2 as an apology. They gave them out when they had nothing to do with the error WHATSOEVER.

Now honestly, some people might complain that steam is a resource hog, and that launching a program just to start a game is too much. They have a point, but everyone has 2 gigabytes of ram nowadays. And unlike every other DRM system, steam has things that encourage you to use it such as a friends list, a steam community system that is integrated with every game, steam cloud, store, great deals... Really, there is no reason to fear it or hate it.

Unless someone can actually give a valid reason as to why steam activation is a bad thing?

Yes, I don't want it.

[Smurf]

You can't say there are no security or privacy issues with Steam. It is based on the internet, ergo, it has security and privacy issues. How big they are depends on each person.

There are security and privacy issues with you using your internet browser. Even without the broswer open. Simply being attached to internet.

I reckon some people are sitting at home toggling the WIFI switch in between posts, or unplugging the Ethernet post directly after they posted, then plugging it back in to reply.

This is bordering madness.

Steam is not going to do anything to compromise your security.

[jpwild]

Hey, I've already said earlier in the thread that I wasn't involved in the discussions so don't know the exact reasonings behind things. All I meant is that it makes sense that, if it's felt that stopping people playing early will reduce piracy, then that would likely have been a factor in the decision.

Piracy is a massive problem in our industry and seriously affects Football Manager as a series. The motivation behind all of this is trying to combat that and it's felt that making this move will do so

You're doing it again. You're linking an issue with piracy in which is pretty much has no link what-so-ever.

Once again: Is this Steam activation method a way to stop people playing the game that they have bought from a UK retailer before the official release date? If someone goes to a retailer and God forbid purchases the game a couple of days before the official release date then they will no longer be able to play that game until the Steam servers activate it. yes? I am not suggested or defending piracy at all. You are linking, somehow, the issue of piracy to someone going to a shop and buying the game before the official release date - that is not piracy in any way shape or form.

Has any retailer put pressure on Sega or SI or offered incentives to implement such a activation method? I could imagine various retailers getting annoyed at other retailers who sell the game early.

[Siven]

One positive that will come from this is that many people who've never used Steam will do so, they'll then (like me) discover such forgotten wonders as Railroad Tycoon2 and Sid Meiers Pirates etc. at £2.99, and their joy will be wondrous to behold:D

Indeed, not forgetting Worms too!

Oh i also got Batman: Arkham Asylum for under £4 too

[PutzMan]

You may as well just make FM13 digital only - no point having the disc if you can't do anything with it on it's own...

Take this example. It's February 2012. All Steam servers are to go offline and never come back. Hell of a lot of pissed off customers you'll have.

[Smurf]

I did say it was your suggestion

Here have a hug

I can feel the love. Since you supported it then we'll go splitsies on the royalties at 70/30 in my favour

[Lazaru5]

Why are updates or automatic updates a problem? Most of the time they close security issues. Sometimes it's about a new feature.

But you can turn off automatic updates. And you can turn Steam to Offline mode once you've activated the game. So it won't update. It will sit there. It won't sit there judging you or anything.

Why won't you get this into your head,,, IT wont be on my machine, period, ever, no way no how, never ever... GET IT!!!

Christ's sake...

[Bertie BG]

You're doing it again. You're linking an issue with piracy in which is pretty much has no link what-so-ever.

Once again: Is this Steam activation method a way to stop people playing the game that they have bought from a UK retailer before the official release date? If someone goes to a retailer and God forbid purchases the game a couple of days before the official release date then they will no longer be able to play that game until the Steam servers activate it. yes? I am not suggested or defending piracy at all. You are linking, somehow, the issue of piracy to someone going to a shop and buying the game before the official release date - that is not piracy in any way shape or form.

Has any retailer put pressure on Sega or SI or offered incentives to implement such a activation method? I could imagine various retailers getting annoyed at other retailers who sell the game early.

I'm not linking anything, I said "if it's felt". The ONLY motivation behind this was to combat Piracy not to try and stop people buying the game legally, whether early or otherwise. There's been no pressure from retailers or any other conspiracy theory you'd like to throw out there. We're trying to combat people pirating our games, that's it.

[Koki]

* Will this Steam-measure affect users in 'illegal' countries, e.g. Germany? I'm not even allowed to view FM-videos(!) on Steam because I'm based in Germany...

* Also: Will the game get updated via Steam or will there be the usual boxed patches? Might be another issue.. I know I can turn out auto updates, but would I be stuck with v12.0.0 then?

I use Steam for some games, but one thing I don't like is when something happens to the Steam servers, it makes the game inaccessible, and by that time, you can't switch to offline mode. I spent a week not being able to play FM10 at one point, and decided I wouldn't use it to install my FM games with again. Uninstalled, and reinstalled with disc only. Obviously this won't be possible now.

Sure, you can always switch to offline mode in the first place, but that makes the rest of Steam pointless, including the community and achievements.

This is my fear, too.

[Wakers]

There are security and privacy issues with you using your internet browser. Even without the broswer open. Simply being attached to internet.

I reckon some people are sitting at home toggling the WIFI switch in between posts, or unplugging the Ethernet post directly after they posted, then plugging it back in to reply.

This is bordering madness.

Steam is not going to do anything to compromise your security.

This is the point. It's on the internet, so everyone has to be aware of the security and possible privacy issues. This is the same for anything on the internet. Just because a web browser is also on the internet, does not mean that people should be ignorant to security and privacy in every other internet based application.

[Smurf]

But it's a crazy stance to take. You think it compromises your security. You have a bunch of people here all from different backgrounds, countries, age groups, all telling you the same thing.

Perhaps you should research Steam a bit more before making that decision.

And less of the aggressive tone please? People are just trying to talk to you to get an understanding of your viewpoint. Which you haven't made very clear. Other than you think it's somehow going to compromise your security. And it won't.

You're on the internet right now. Being on line is by far more intrusive than installing and using Steam.

[danielmetcalf]

How many steam accounts will you be able to install it on?

[Bertie BG]

Why won't you get this into your head,,, IT wont be on my machine, period, ever, no way no how, never ever... GET IT!!!

Christ's sake...

Then I'm sorry to say that you won't be able to play FM this year as this decision has been made and won't be gone back on. I hope you change your mind as I, Eugene and a few others on this forum think you're making the wrong decision.

That's your choice though although I'm sorry you've made it.

[Ackter]

Indeed, not forgetting Worms too!

Oh i also got Batman: Arkham Asylum for under £4 too

Portal is currently free as well.

[Bertie BG]

How many steam accounts will you be able to install it on?

One Steam account although you can login with that Steam account on an unlimited amount of computers (just only one at a time).

[Robsy1990]

I have Steam, and I will buy FM12, but I'm also pretty annoyed that this has been brought in. I installed FM10 on Steam at first and encountered all kinds of errors, made worse by the fact that my uni halls had an extremely erratic web connection. But Steam's customer support is extremely poor in my experience, and the offline mode is also temperamental, no matter what other pro-Steam users here have said. It plays up if your Internet connection drops out temporarily and can sometimes be a pig's ear to get back again. I can't be bothered faffing about with stuff like that, especially having to scroll when in full-screen mode (which, I will point out, Macs don't seem to like - especially when the game is processing. Could freely scroll between windows on F-S mode when I was using Windows 7.)

That said, Steam isn't as bad as people might think it is. It doesn't take up a huge amount of RAM (if you have a reasonable computer) and it doesn't put your identity at risk - in fact it is a lot safer than the likes of Facebook etc which I assume the majority of people here use. They are all myths.

I'm skeptical, and I don't think it will make a huge difference in terms of piracy, but my doubts are merely speculating. Hopefully it will come out and after the initial 'unlocking' I won't even have to think about Steam in terms of FM.

[Smurf]

It's not an internet based application. It's based on your computer. Once you activate the game you can turn Steam to offline mode. If you launch FM you can quit Steam. To relaunch FM start up Steam, launch FM, quit Steam.

Steam does NOTHING to compromise your security.

[joekobe]

It's hard for me to say that i wouldn't purchase FM12 because of this but did you tkink twice, when you were making decision like this?

I mean these people who actually do not know what steam is all about, now will have to install it, and then making some kind of things to activating their games? WHY?

you know, if the SI developers are doing their best to find solution for the problem but they aren't able to completely fix it, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT PEOPLE SHOULD DO THEIR BeST TO JUST REGISTER THEIR 100 % LICENCED GAME.

It's Rubbish. Im sorry

[Kriss]

Total sidetrack but Sid Meiers Pirates is the BOMB! I played the original on my old system and if that's on Stream, I take it all back SI.

You can also download a mod that gives you topless barmaids and governors daughters:cool:

[Bertie BG]

Portal is currently free as well.

Really? Bugger! I only bought that through Steam a month or two ago!

[bcooper]

Hi all

I know this an emotive subject but there are a few claims being made on posts here that need clarifying a little:

Firstly the reason for asking genuine consumers to activate via Steam is purely combatting piracy. No money changes hands between SEGA and Steam. People saying it will not combat piracy are not in possesion of the facts that those who have made the decision have. We all know that unfortunately it wont cure piracy, but it will , we believe massively reduce it this year.

This is not done to pave the way for digital only releases. My personal belief is that day is coming to gaming as it is to music and watching movies at home, but it's not a factor here, hence needing to activate physical copies of the game.

People have always legally needed to buy one copy of the game per person, although we know it's often not the case. If you don't play at the same time then more than one person can play FM with different saves, the same as always.Someone mentioned FIFA, if you buy a copy of a console game you can play it at the same time on the same machine, different times on the same machine but you can't play it at the same time on different machines, same as FM this year.

Some have doubted the intention of the move being antipiracy and wanting to see stat and asked for honesty. We can't and won't post data of sales, or piracy. However, I will be honest and say if we could remove piracy from FM and a small proportion of those pirates moved to buying the game it would be the equivalent of adding 1 2 or maybe 3 European countries worth of sales to the game easily.

People have said that this is an inconvenience to real consumers. It is. Everyone involved wishes it wasn't. What we're asking is for people to see past the inconvenience of one off activation. A billion things in life require you to prove who you are, or show proof of age or ownership, it's not realistic to suggest that people trust you and everyone on everything because it inconveniences the law abiding citizen, that's not how moving from country to country, or owning a car, or buying alcohol, or telephone banking or loads of stuff works. Unfortunately, because so many people steal FM each year it's not really an option for us to expect that FM is just trusted either. We've tried to make the system as simple and as pinaless as possible, i hope you try it and give it a chance.

If you havem't tried STEAM for a few years, it's worth a look. We didn't chose this course of action for FM10 or FM11, but we are now and it's because we think Steam has improved, and internet connection rates are at a level where it's realistic to assume FM consumers, in the main have an internet connection. Some people won't, but it is still possible to activate through Steam, switch on offline mode and not connect again after making one trip to somewhere with wifi or a connection. It's not perfect, but we think the vast vast majority of people will be able to connect to the internet.

No, the people in charge of this system aren't the people who were in charge of the sega site security

If you get a chance to take up the £5 bet that a cracked working version of the game is available before it's activated on Steam, take it.

[Bertie BG]

It's hard for me to say that i wouldn't purchase FM12 because of this but did you tkink twice, when you were making decision like this?

I mean these people who actually do not know what steam is all about, now will have to install it, and then making some kind of things to activating their games? WHY?

you know, if the SI developers are doing their best to find solution for the problem but they aren't able to completely fix it, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT SHOULD DO THEIR BUST TO JUST REGISTER THEIR 100 % LICENCED GAME.

It's Rubbish. Im sorry

The decision was not taken lightly and was taken after thorough research as to the best way to combat piracy for this year's game. It was felt, after that research, that this was the best option available.

[phd_angel]

Well done SI/SEGA!

Gamers who don't accept your anti-piracy efforts are a bunch of whiners. Spoon fed, crying babies who have mom and pop to pay for food, shelter and, obviously, the FM game each year.

Piracy makes the game more expensive for everyone. So, suck it up your pampered whiners. You should be grateful that SI is doing something to make the game more affordable and secure for everyone.

[Cougar2010]

In relation to this we're pretty proud of our level of support so hopefully if people do have issues with Steam we can certainly try and help out. Also people can easily turn off 'auto-updates' for FM and Steam via the preferences.

This is the problem Neil.

I suspect the majority of people are happy with the level of support that SI/Sega offer on the forums but IF something goes wrong which is Steam related that support is next to useless as the responsibility will then be with Steam. Simply put users have far more confidence in SI's support than they do in Steam's.

It isn't that long ago (FM09?) that it was a forum user and not SI staff that was helping people with the majority of Steam issues.

[FulhamGuy]

Absolutely unuseles. Hackers will do go throught that every time, and this "protection" cause problems only for original buyers (US!!!).

[7Bestie7]

You can also download a mod that gives you topless barmaids and governors daughters:cool:

Right that's it...Steam is officially the best thing since sliced bananas!

[Wakers]

It's not an internet based application. It's based on your computer. Once you activate the game you can turn Steam to offline mode. If you launch FM you can quit Steam. To relaunch FM start up Steam, launch FM, quit Steam.

Steam does NOTHING to compromise your security.

This is just wrong. You should not be spouting out misinformation. It is an application that requires you to submit an email address and a password in order to use it. You login over the internet. You purchase games over the internet. You update games over the internet, it is an internet based application. End of story.

As it involves sending information and receiving information from the internet, then it has security issues that people need to be aware of. They need to know how to set a proper password, make sure the email is safe and so on. Nothing you say will change that, regardless of how many times you repeat the same misinformation in capitals.

It is the same with any application that requires a username and password. People need to know how to be safe. That is the end of the story, and I really don't see why you don't understand this?

[Guest]

Assuming that the data on the use of illegal copies is accurate & readily available I would imagine that SI know exactly watch regions have the highest incidents of piracy (It has already been mentioned by Miles that Turkey is a problem market) then surely this needs to be a two-pronged attack on the issue.

There is no need to labour the point but it is a fairly held point that DRM does not reduce piracy as these systems have been in place for a number of years yet publishing houses constantly & rightly bemoan the increased prevalence of illegally obtained copies of their IP, what the honest, law-abiding community needs to see are publishes actively stating which markets represent the biggest concern, why those areas have such a problem, is it price, culture, whatever & what if anything is being considered to attack the problem.

Unfortunately I do not think it is a problem that can be fixed, someone has already posted in this thread that they & their brother used the same copy of FM under the old system which is clear violation of the UELA yet I'd hazard a guess that many people in the UK would not see that as an issue, now if such a mindset exists in an affluent country such as the UK were let's be honest £24.99 is a reasonable price to pay based on average disposable income how can SI/SEGA sensibly think they can tackle the issue in other countries that do not have such a favourable price/income ratio.

[Johnny Karp]

I can't understand all this bitching and moaning about Steam, I really can't. FM is a game that I care about, one of the very few games that I'm buying, and I'll keep buying it even if SI would ask me for a blood sample to activate it! I can't see how a reliable application like Steam would ruin the game for you, I've been using it for three years now and I didn't have any major problems with it.

[Cougar2010]

It's not an internet based application. It's based on your computer. Once you activate the game you can turn Steam to offline mode. If you launch FM you can quit Steam. To relaunch FM start up Steam, launch FM, quit Steam.

Steam does NOTHING to compromise your security.

Will you please stop spreading false information!

YOU CANNOT QUIT STEAM AFTER LOADING FM, STEAM MUST BE RUNNING TO PLAY FM.