The npower championship thread 2011/12

[MIR17]

When he's scoring goals then yeah fantastic, all hail the striker. When he stops though, ask yourself what is he doing? When he's not getting a sniff because he's not holding the ball up and therefore the team is hardly in possession then is he useful? When your side is struggling is he going to step up and be good enough to make a difference? At that point I'd much prefer someone on the side who is able to be good enough to help keep hold of the ball or bring something else to the team.

I can just as easily say the same thing as you have done and say: what is the use of a player who is good enough to keep hold of the ball or brings something else to the team if you've got no one who can stick the ball in the back of the net at the end of it? Yeah, fantastic if he's holding the ball up and other players are getting on the end of it and doing it, but what if they aren't though, ask yourself what is he doing? When his holding the ball up is leading to nothing because there's no one there to score goals?

You can go through every position and every player in your our our squad and say exactly the same things! You need different players to do different things and bring different things to the table. There's no such thing as the perfect player who can do every job and doesn't have weaknesses in his games and if there was he certainty wouldn't be playing at Championship level!

Not necessarily Beckford himself by the way. He's clearly capable of scoring out of nothing and some moments of magic but the very limited (and I said that in my first post) times I have seen him, he seems like an incredibly frustrating player when things are not going the teams way. Like I said, I saw him play in a game which the opposition dominated and he spent the majority of the game throwing a paddy, on the floor trying to win free kicks or giving the ball away and moaning some more.

So if thing's aren't go the team's way then the goalscoring centre forward is a frustrating player and the other 10 players aren't simply because he moans and gives the ball away (which every player does when things aren't going their way)?

I couldn't care about any of this as long as he scores the goals which push us towards to the top of the table, which is what he's here to do. Other players are here to create and other players are here to defend.

And to answer your question about other positions then yes players who can contribute in more than one way are preferable to ones who can't. I prefer Fonte to Jaidi because Fonte is so much more comfortable on the ball and can help build play from the back. It's better than watching someone lump it forward and then watching us try to build an attack from there. For me personally I think better technical and more composed players are better to watch. The whole team benefits from defenders being good on the ball and midfielders being good in both boxes, just as the whole them benefits from strikers who can contribute to build up play.

That's not what I was saying. Yes, everyone is going to prefer a goalscoring striker who can contribute to build up play as well and everyone prefers defenders who can pass and create goals as well, but I couldn't care how composed or technically gifted a player is if they can't do their primary job and criticising players for only excelling in their primary job is silly. You seem to be saying that you would prefer a build up striker, regardless of how good he is in front of goal, or you'd prefer a defender who is composed on the ball, regardless of how well he can actually defend, because you prefer technical and more composed players.

I'd much, much rather have defender who can defend but who hoofs it clear than a defender who can't defend but who can pass the ball i.e. I'd take Jack Hobbs over Jeffrey Bruma any day!

edit: Also what do you think about David Connolly, GG? He's a player who hardly contributes anything but his goals.

[Phil Holden]

Apologies, SCIAG. I'm not sure what came over me to make such a heinous error.

[Benjani'sBootCleaner]

I'm very sorry, but I'm going to go on a rant, because people spelling Glen Little's first name with two ns is one of my pet hates, especially if they support Burnley or Glentoran or Reading.

Actually, that sentence means I don't need to rant, which is a good thing, because I wanted to express my frustration without making you feel like I was taking it out on you, which I wasn't.

I've seen Glen Little take on Kaka

Glen Little Love In on BBCs live text that night

[SCIAG]

Glen Little was fbbbb. Best player in the best team ever to play in this division and you'll all do well to remember it. And now back to our usual broadcast.

[erik86]

Glen Little was amazing! Ran like he was injured but could beat any full back with his skill.... He also scored the best goal I have ever seen live - a chip from outside the box over Roman Larrieau of Plymouth back in 2005/06 season.

[Matthew Le God]

Also what do you think about David Connolly, GashGuff17? He's a player who hardly contributes anything but his goals.

Well that is nonsense. His teamwork and all round play is superb, only problem Saints have had with him is getting him fit (which he now has been for a long time).

[GG17]

So if thing's aren't go the team's way then the goalscoring centre forward is a frustrating player and the other 10 players aren't simply because he moans and gives the ball away (which every player does when things aren't going their way)?

I couldn't care about any of this as long as he scores the goals which push us towards to the top of the table, which is what he's here to do. Other players are here to create and other players are here to defend.

That's not what I was saying. Yes, everyone is going to prefer a goalscoring striker who can contribute to build up play as well and everyone prefers defenders who can pass and create goals as well, but I couldn't care how composed or technically gifted a player is if they can't do their primary job and criticising players for only excelling in their primary job is silly. You seem to be saying that you would prefer a build up striker, regardless of how good he is in front of goal, or you'd prefer a defender who is composed on the ball, regardless of how well he can actually defend, because you prefer technical and more composed players.

I'd much, much rather have defender who can defend but who hoofs it clear than a defender who can't defend but who can pass the ball i.e. I'd take Jack Hobbs over Jeffrey Bruma any day!

edit: Also what do you think about David Connolly, GG? He's a player who hardly contributes anything but his goals.

I guess I just like the fluency of all the players being able to contribute. Of course, like you said, players who can do that are not going to be playing in this league but even at the Championship level I expect players to be good enough to contribute in at least small amounts. I guess you were right when you said earlier about strikers getting a bit of a rough deal, but yes I'd much prefer a build up striker to one who is awesome in front of goal because at this level I don't think any team is good enough (especially not us) to have a luxury striker like that. I've witnessed my team play with Rasiak remember, it was painful and frustrating to watch, even when he was scoring. It helped that the team we had around him had some pretty awesome players like Bale and Kenwyne Jones so he could get away with it a bit, but as soon as the quality around him started to leave he became even more useless because he wasn't scoring either.

Also I'd like to point out it's not really a choice of one or the other at this level, at least I don't think it should be. It's not like I would choose someone who can't defend just because he can pass the ball, I don't see why it's not possible to find one that can do both adequately at Championship level. I'll be pretty annoyed if Jaidi becomes a regular for us this season because I think our other two defenders are just as capable defensively and are also more comfortable on the ball. Of course at times he'll be useful because he's a tank and there are some shocking strikers in this league who are in the team to bully defenders and he can deal with that better than our other defenders, but on a regular basis? I'd like to think we have players who can cope and give us something to build from too. Who knows about the defender we signed last night.

As for Connolly, I disagree. I'm not expecting world beating contribution but he makes us tick at times. His combination play with Lambert and Lallana especially is different class at times, and helps links us together. That's all I like to see. Someone good enough to get involved. I don't think Beckford is that from the little I have seen of him. You might well build the team around him like Leeds did and therefore reap the benefits and good luck to you if you do.

Edit: If you are going to ask about Saints strikers, Barnard is your man. Southend fans will tell you he played for them on his own up front and managed to out score everyone but Beckford and Lambert in League One (I think?) so he must have something about him, but it's not much more than hard work. As a technical and all round player he's limited.

[G-Man11]

so according to someone on twitter we missed out on 3 deals yesterday

puncheon - fee agreed but waited it out for a preferred move to london

lichaj - got injured

clingan for paynter swap - was agreed according to someone but one of the players refused the deal

Doubt it tbh. Get rid of Clingan and we have 2 midfielders over the age of 17, neither any good.

It was Clingan, he said he'd rather go back to Belfast than come to Leeds...

As I said above doubt the deal was true. But if so wp Sammy

Agree with Gashguff about strikers. It's all well and good having a striker who can only score goals but if you don't have a midfield who can supply him he's pretty much useless. I mean Leicester have a team with plenty of quality attackers who can supply him so I imagine Beckford will be good for you but I doubt Beckford would get more than 10 goals a season in our team whilst getting very little in terms of assists (though I'd still of course take him over O'Donovan).

[bigdunk]

I don't know what he was like for you guys, but Rasiak was fantastic at Derby. He wasn't a traditional targetman, in that you could just hoof it up to his head and have him hold it up, but everything else about his game was good - plenty of goals, headed and with feet and he linked up well with the players around him and created goals as well.

[MIR17]

I guess I just like the fluency of all the players being able to contribute. Of course, like you said, players who can do that are not going to be playing in this league but even at the Championship level I expect players to be good enough to contribute in at least small amounts. I guess you were right when you said earlier about strikers getting a bit of a rough deal, but yes I'd much prefer a build up striker to one who is awesome in front of goal because at this level I don't think any team is good enough (especially not us) to have a luxury striker like that. I've witnessed my team play with Rasiak remember, it was painful and frustrating to watch, even when he was scoring. It helped that the team we had around him had some pretty awesome players like Bale and Kenwyne Jones so he could get away with it a bit, but as soon as the quality around him started to leave he became even more useless because he wasn't scoring either.

What is the point of having a build up striker if you've got no one to score the goals at the end of it though?

And we were more than good enough to have a "luxury" goalpoaching striker at this level last season. We scored the most goals in the division from when Yakubu came in onwards and that was without question down to him coming into the team, he completely changed our attack for the better. It wasn't his fault our defence made endless amounts of mistakes.

Also I'd like to point out it's not really a choice of one or the other at this level, at least I don't think it should be. It's not like I would choose someone who can't defend just because he can pass the ball, I don't see why it's not possible to find one that can do both adequately at Championship level.

I'm not saying it's not, but there's a difference between not chosing someone and criticising someone. It's not that having a player who scores 20 goals a season and also creates 20 isn't what every team wants, but players like that are incredibly rare, Taarabt is the only player I can think of who has come close in recent years and some people still criticised him for "not tracking back" which to me is ridiculous.

I just think people are being ridiculously hypercritical when they criticise someone because all they do is score goals, because that's a hell of a way to contribute to the team. If Beckford scores 20 goals for us then he's had a fantastic season and contributed a hell of a lot to our team and our season, regardless of how many he sets up or how much build up play he does.

I'll be pretty annoyed if Jaidi becomes a regular for us this season because I think our other two defenders are just as capable defensively and are also more comfortable on the ball. Of course at times he'll be useful because he's a tank and there are some shocking strikers in this league who are in the team to bully defenders and he can deal with that better than our other defenders, but on a regular basis? I'd like to think we have players who can cope and give us something to build from too. Who knows about the defender we signed last night.

That's fair enough, obviously anyone would prefer defenders more comfortably on the ball if they are just as capable defensively, but their primary job of defending should be what they're in the team for first and foremost.

[Benjani'sBootCleaner]

Southampton footballer Dan Seaborne in 'life-threatening' attack

Southampton footballer Dan Seaborne has suffered serious head injuries in an attack outside a nightclub in the city.

Seaborne, 24, was found collapsed on the pavement outside Junk nightclub, London Road, in the early hours.

The defender, who signed from Exeter last year, was treated by paramedics before being taken to hospital.

Hampshire Constabulary said his condition was "serious and potentially life-threatening" and that two men, aged 35 and 29, had been arrested.

A spokesman said: "Investigating officers are trying to establish the circumstances that led to the man sustaining the injuries.

"Although they have identified a number of witnesses they are appealing for others to come forward."

Southampton General Hospital said it was a "police matter" but that Seaborne was in a serious but stable condition.

Exeter City have sent the player their best wishes.

Seaborne began his career at the club before moving to the Championship side in January 2010.

Only in Southampton...

[Wiggins Top Boys]

haah Steve Mclaren thinking of leaving Forest because of lack of backing,... poor fella has only managed to sign Miller, Greening, Boateng, Reid and Derbyshire, the poor love.

honestly some of these 'big name' managers are a joke. Steve Claridge points it out all the time, some people get away with murder, lots of money and great talent and do **** all and just moan about it. thank god we've got a manager as good as Jackett with patience, working on a tight budget and getting the best out of so called average players

[Nottingham Forest]

It's the fact that we lost 9 players in the summer that's the problem. We already had a small squad as it is. If Cohen. Morgan and Lynch get injured we'd have to play Gunter at LB and Moloney at RB with Kieron Freeman covering for both of those. We'd also have to play one of Karlton Watson, Jamaal Lascelles or Lawrence Gorman at CB alongside Luke Chambers. I personally don't see it as a problem as I would like to see some of these youngsters be given a chance as they keep saying it's the best lot we've had since Dawson etc etc. It's also to do with experience too. Something we've been lacking as a our squad is quite young.

[cms186]

but of those 9 players, not many were first team players, only earnshaw really, and hes been replaced, one of the 9 was a youth player who made 3 sub appearances ffs, McClaren has had money to spend, we've spent over 2 million quid with very little money incoming, id be willing to wager our net transfer spend is probably in the top 5 in the league, off the top of my head, only west ham and leicester have spent more, and their spending power is a lot more than ours. Its hard to tell where the fault lies, but for example McClaren said ages ago that he was happy with Cohen playing at left back, but now we need a left back apparantly, whose fault is that? we tried to get verhoek in, we even had him over for a medical, but for him to suddenly feel homesick isnt really something you can account for.

Who knows how true these stories are anyway, could just be McClaren trying to get more money out of them for all i know

[Matthew Le God]

Phew...

Dan Seaborne is now in a "stable condition" & concious again after last night's attack".

Was earlier reported as life threatening.

[Nottingham Forest]

but of those 9 players, not many were first team players, only earnshaw really, and hes been replaced, one of the 9 was a youth player who made 3 sub appearances ffs, McClaren has had money to spend, we've spent over 2 million quid with very little money incoming, id be willing to wager our net transfer spend is probably in the top 5 in the league, off the top of my head, only west ham and leicester have spent more, and their spending power is a lot more than ours. Its hard to tell where the fault lies, but for example McClaren said ages ago that he was happy with Cohen playing at left back, but now we need a left back apparantly, whose fault is that? we tried to get verhoek in, we even had him over for a medical, but for him to suddenly feel homesick isnt really something you can account for.

Who knows how true these stories are anyway, could just be McClaren trying to get more money out of them for all i know

Something's going wrong obviously. I'm fairly pleased with our squad now and should we get a CB and a LB during the loan period, I'd be delighted. Should we not then I'm still pleased with the squad we have. Just need to start picking up points. If McClaren goes then so be it. At this current moment in time he's worse than Billy for complaining imo.

[cms186]

our net transfer spend is probably in the top 5 in the league, off the top of my head, only west ham and leicester have spent more

i wasn't wrong, we're the 4th highest net spenders in the league this season, behind West Ham, Leicester and Brighton, we've spent more than Ipswich ( who had 8 million incoming from Wickhams sale ), Southampton ( who had 12 million from chamberlain ), Blackpool ( who have parachute payments and 8 million incoming from selling adam and campbell ). Add to that we've been trying to sign other players as well, i really dont think McClaren has much to moan about :/

[Matthew Le God]

i wasn't wrong, we're the 4th highest net spenders in the league this season, behind West Ham, Leicester and Brighton

What is Forest's net spend?

[cms186]

well we spent 1.2 million on Miller, its been reported we spent 600k on greening and the same on derbyshire, take away the 200kish for garner, then we spent a net of 2.2 million

[Simon Tipple]

We've signed Vicente!!

http://www.seagulls.co.uk/page/Latest/0,,10433~2439699,00.html

[robterrace]

What is Forest's net spend?

£1.2 million on Miller, about £600k on Derbyshire, and £675k on Greening, so a net spend of about £2.5m.

[Pukey]

We've signed Vicente!!

http://www.seagulls.co.uk/page/Latest/0,,10433~2439699,00.html

****ing hell

In other news, http://www.leedsunited.com/news/20110902/becchio-progressing-nicely_2247585_2439838 \o/ \o/ The sooner he's back, the better.

[cms186]

£1.2 million on Miller, about £600k on Derbyshire, and £675k on Greening, so a net spend of about £2.5m.

you need to take off garners fee

[robterrace]

Something's going wrong obviously. I'm fairly pleased with our squad now and should we get a CB and a LB during the loan period, I'd be delighted. Should we not then I'm still pleased with the squad we have. Just need to start picking up points. If McClaren goes then so be it. At this current moment in time he's worse than Billy for complaining imo.

If Danny Collins has been released by Stoke, then he can sign on a free transfer at any time, otherwise, he'll have to be signed on loan when the window reopens (September 7th).

We need to sign at least one centre back, one full back, and possibly another winger.

[robterrace]

you need to take off garners fee

I got told it was £300k. So, lets split the difference, call it £250k for him.

[MrDiCanio]

International weekend; zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

For any Pompey fans that may be interested, its kids for £1 next weekend and the turnstiles are all barcodes and scanners, so you'll easily get away with it. I can't promise that the away turnstiles are the same as I've never been round there, but if you dont mind sitting in the home area its a breeze

[MIR17]

International weekend is made even worse by the fact Hinckley or Barwell aren't playing at home! I hate international weekends.

[G-Man11]

Should come to the Nuneaton game

[MrDiCanio]

I'm spending the weekend moving into my new house, very well timed

My local-est club Stevenage are trying to rope in London season ticket holders with cheap tickets this weekend. Bit sad that a third tier side average about 2,500 fans really, but with London so close its not surprising.

[MavReck]

The home non-league clubs closest to me, Bishop's Stortford, Chelmsford and Braintree have arranged their fixtures so you could watch all 3. 12:30, 15:30 and 19:30 respectively. Would take me roughly 25 minutes to Game 1, then another 35 minutes to Game 2, then 20 minutes for the final game.

[G-Man11]

Why are the media so inept when it comes to the Football League? Every single report of Hartlepool signing Stephen Wright says that he's joining from Coventry after they released him in the summer when in fact we released him at the end of the 09-10 season and he spent last year at Brentford.

[MIR17]

I'm not driving down to Nuneaton just to hope to see them lose.

[MrDiCanio]

What lower league sides are there in the Norwich area? Might have to pay them a visit if theyre making an effort to attract fans for the day.

[robterrace]

The home non-league clubs closest to me, Bishop's Stortford, Chelmsford and Braintree have arranged their fixtures so you could watch all 3. 12:30, 15:30 and 19:30 respectively. Would take me roughly 25 minutes to Game 1, then another 35 minutes to Game 2, then 20 minutes for the final game.

Theres actually a bus being put on by Blue Square in order to try and get fans to all 3 games. Costs £38.50 including entry to all 3 games.

[cms186]

What lower league sides are there in the Norwich area? Might have to pay them a visit if theyre making an effort to attract fans for the day.

only one that springs to mind is kings lynn, and id guess thats a fair distance from norwich

[cms186]

Why are the media so inept when it comes to the Football League? Every single report of Hartlepool signing Stephen Wright says that he's joining from Coventry after they released him in the summer when in fact we released him at the end of the 09-10 season and he spent last year at Brentford.

because very few people care about non-league football

[G-Man11]

Is that supposed to be some sort of joke about the Media's ineptness? Cause I didn't mention a single non-league team.

[cms186]

no, it wasnt a joke, few people care about non-league football so the media doesnt cover it much/at all

[G-Man11]

So your point is that we should be glad for the coverage we get as Non-League football get's even less coverage? :confused:

[MIR17]

I think cms just misrerad your post, G-Man.

[hilly_boro]

Looks like Coventry stood their ground...

TONY Mowbray will bring in a stop-gap gunslinger to boost his team’s firepower.

The Boro boss will turn to the temporary transfer market next week after the window closed without reinforcements, leaving Boro striker light.

But Mowbray will be delighted that his other chief objective on deadline day was achieved and none of his prized assets left the club.

The quiet night may have left fans frustrated but it leaves Boro with the squad that has gone through August unbeaten intact - and with the option to add a striker when the domestic loan market opens on September 8.

Boro did try to bring in a frontman but a £1m move for Coventry’s Lukas Jutkiewisc, revealed in yesterday’s Gazette, stalled at the death as the goalposts moved for both clubs.

“A significant offer was rejected at the final stages,” a Boro statement admitted.

The Sky Blues striker told the Coventry Evening Telegraph website he was preparing to switch to Teesside as late as 5pm but City had hoped to bring in Cardiff striker Jon Parkin in his place as part of the deal that took defender Ben Turner to Wales.

When it didn’t happen, even though City got striker Cody McDonald from Norwich, their urgency to sell waned.

Boro had intended to fund the move by a mooted exit of Matthew Bates but Swansea’s improved offer for the skipper, when it came, fell short of Mowbray’s valuation leaving Boro without the extra muscle to force through the deal when Coventry got cold feet.

“There was some keen bidding for Lukas but I’m delighted we held on to him,” said City boss Andy Thorn.

But while Boro failed to bring in new faces, Mowbray was delighted no one left.

'mon a decent striker coming in on loan next week.

[G-Man11]

Yeah I read that the other day. Imagine we'd have seen very little from a million with the sell on clauses Everton have.

[hilly_boro]

Yeh a million would have been a steal.

Although we're pretty desperate for a striker i do hope we move our intentions onto a bigger lad than Jutkiewicz. Emnes and McDonald aren't the biggest of guys.

[G-Man11]

Jukebox is a strong lad and a player who's good at holding up the ball so I imagine you are looking at a bigger striker.

[hilly_boro]

To be completely honest not probably seen enough of him to see him that way. Roman Bednar is another who's been linked.

[G-Man11]

Well I mean obviously when we played you last week he was so isolated he couldn't really show anything. He's not a target man per say but he's more like half target man and half goal scorer. I think a good comparison would be Kevin Doyle, very similar sort of player.

[SCIAG]

Doyle isn't great at holding the ball up, but he's exceptional, probably the best in the country, at placing headers. Long is probably a better comparison, but I don't know much about Jukebox other than what you have written.

[G-Man11]

Maybe I'm wrong then but he seems to have played very much as a long striker for Wolves (certainly in his first 2 seasons) who runs the channels, holds the ball up and just generally enables wolves to keep the ball when they hoof it forwards under pressure. Seeing as how Jukebox doesn't have particularly much pace I don't feel comfortable comparing him to Long even though they probably are similar players:D

Basically Jukey will run the channels, hold the ball up, chase down some over-hit passes (though certainly not to the extent of long), win plenty of headers and hold up the ball when we get the ball forward quickly and once he's laid it off look to make runs into the box to score goals (he certainly get's in plenty of goal scoring positions but his finishing isn't great). Oh and he also loves to have a shot, had more shots than any other player in the league last season.

So yeah he is actually not that different from long, but with plenty of strength rather than pace.

[cms186]

So your point is that we should be glad for the coverage we get as Non-League football get's even less coverage? :confused:

hmm, no, mir is right, but you arent wrong either

[sebs]

so have we heard the alleged wayne routledge story in here, the one that might have been the tipping point for mcclaren?

ALLEGEDLY wayne routledge agreed in principle over the phone to £12k per week. turned up at forest ready to sign a contract, saw contract said £8k a week on it and said "um, see you later then".

probably complete bollocks made up by fans who don't like the chief executive but...