9.3.0 - has made a terrible game, even worse!

[Internomad]

Any other constructive debate would be welcome, however.

Lol, that's a joke, you asking for constructive debate after your OP which was far from constructive, just the whining of another poor soul who is not very good at the game.

[Internomad]

Soon FM is simply going to become a small group of Football management simulation nerds

Err, I doubt it, record sales again this year!

BTW, I manage Grimsby Town, and lets face it, that's a pretty hard task in RL as well as on FM09, but I'm doing quite well with them using a 4-4-2 tactic without doing all the stuff you referred to.

[Matt ex SEGA]

That is the last post accusing anyone else of whining in this thread.

Comment on the topic, not people's posting styles - or be infracted, or banned if you're a repeat offender. It doesn't need constantly repeating - please post in a considerate manner.

Thank you.

[Chris1232]

oh, shut up please.

stop moaning about a game that has became brilliant.

this patch has sorted all bugs, and made things better.

[backpackant]

4. My left back is one of the best footballers in my side, and is my attacking full back - he gets forward, he runs with the ball (dribbling 17) and he picks passes and through balls. Fail to see what is wrong here. He has low closing down as already explained. My right full back is slightly different - he is more of a defensive full back, so he does not attack as much, his forward runs are limited as is he running with ball, CF is obvioulsey little becuase technically, hes not particularly brilliant.

I still fail to see why when I play with this tactic I get mauled week in week out.

Your whole tactic is flawed, Steboyuk.

I've quoted number 4 as a prime example. You have a full back man marking AND bombing forward? How exactly does that work?

Wingers do not man-mark. They mark zonally to stop crosses getting into the box. What's the point in man-marking Ronaldo or Malouda or Reira when Scholes or Lampard or Gerrard can happily take the ball into that area and put in a cross? CBs do man mark just in case that cross DOES come into the box. They also man-mark because when the opposition is defending, if possession gets turned over, the punt back up the field is likely to come to the strikers waiting for just such a chance. If your full backs are ALWAYS forward during attacks, there's a good chance that one of the opposition STs will flick on to the wing and you are suddenly outnumbered.

This is how football works in real life, and also on FM, and you don't need a tactical bible to tell you this - just WATCH A GAME. It's just knowing how to apply what you know about real football to what it means on FM... which I concede isn't always intuitive, certainly not for a first-time FMer. I've played this since CM01/02 so I don't even read the instruction booklet any more. Half a season of experimenting and I'm usually ready to go.

Basic football knowledge + a little FM patience = FM success.

It isn't perfect - it's a GAME for crying out loud - but it's actually very logical when you stop thinking in terms of ultimate tactics and, for too many people on these forums, the way you WANT it to work.

[WoollenGreg]

I personally think the game has got so much better over the years - especially since fm05, fm08 being my favourite so far (before patch 930 was released). The patch 930 has helped this game immensely just in the fact I'm watching football on the 2d and 3d. No more exact passing, no more close shots on goal everytime, link up plays including both my strikers taking it round the goalkeeper and laying it back to his partner just like Wiltord and Henry back in the 98 World Cup, I love this game since the patch - Well Done Sports Interactive, you deserve it!

[backpackant]

...for example lets say I have Luke Young - a defensive right back who is capable of playing centre half. Hes not the best on the ball but is a solid defender, and Patrice Evra on the left side. Are you seriousley telling me I should make these players play the same way? Watch them in real life - Evra plays as a wingback at the very least and is often higher up the field than the left midfielder in front of him - Luke young is totally different, he gets forward if he has to IE to provide an out ball to a central midfielder, he will very rarely commit further than the winger and certainly dosent try and beat men like evra does on the ball. Accoridng to you (or more the FM match engine), telling them to play their natural game, to the best of their abilities would be wrong, and it would unbalance my tactic, which it wouldent at all.

Patrice Evra will, no doubt, be told to get forward whenever he can. Luke Young will be told to get forward and support whenever necessary. Set both these players to "mixed" forward runs and "team" mentality, and they WILL play their natural game, within the context of the match. Evra is faster, so will get back quicker, but to have one set tactic whereby he is set to run forward constantly is foolish. I cannot see Fergie doing that for every game. Yes, if he is planning on going on the attack, Evra getting forward a lot will be essential, so a forward arrow is necessary... but against, say, Tottenham in the Carling Cup final there would have been the equivillent of "mixed" forward runs, with a team mentality, because he will have had to use his intelligence to look out for Lennon who was ripping them apart.

Not man-marking, but ensuring he didn't get in behind. Which for large parts of the game, didn't work because he was constantly tracking back.

And see how Fergie noticed Lennon getting in a lot, how he then stopped Evra getting forward as often, how the buildup became more patient and the game started to swing back to Man U.

These are all things that happen in FM, and things that work when you apply the logic to them.

With all due respect to WWFan, I think he has made it sound way too complicated. All FMers really need, rather than a 12000 word tactical bible, is a simple key, an understanding of sliders.

(0 = far left, 20 = far right)

EG:

Team Mentality:

0 = players will look to keep possession and only attack when there is a GOALden opportunity.

5 = players will keep possession but be on the look out for possible opportunities (when applied with "counter attack" ticked, forward players' movement will be actively seeking out space to augment this).

10 = players will keep possession, but constantly look for openings.

15 = players will pass forward more often than backwards, look for space, and take shots at goal whenever possible.

20 = players will try the killer passes, hoof the ball up to target man at every opportunity (when ticked), wingers will bomb into space; essentially, it's forward, forward, forward.

Individual attacking mentality / forward runs:

0 = will only run forward to close space down; once the ball is punted up or passed forward, player will continue to mark his zone/man and not join the attack unless specified in set pieces.

5 = will only go forward when absolutely necessary; if, for example, there is ample space that can be exploited, such as a full-back using the wing to help his attacking winger out of a spot, or when counter-attacking.

10 = will go forward to support winger/midfield/striker when team mentality/opportunities dictate. To be genuinely effective, good footballing itelligence is necessary (anticipation, etc).

15 = will go forward during all attacks, ie, whenever your team has possession, and seeks to get into space whenever possible.

20 = will bomb forward whenever team has possession, look to receive ball, and go forward with it or pass forward at all times.

These are just examples, not definitive explanations, but are certainly how I use them to great effect. My CBs are never lower than 5 on mentality because my midfielders are on 10. I think it's common sense that you wouldn't set your CBs to 0 while your midfield is on 15, but maybe I just think logicaly.

No, real managers don't use sliders, but the key to FM is understanding how the sliders equate to 'real' instructions. A little more simplified support from SI would go a long way, certainly for new users.

[Mitja]

i thought individual mentality just over-writes team?

[RobertPBham]

I'm going to wade in here and say that although I have enjoyed all FM's including 2009, the tactics side is getting worse and worse for me.

There is just no logic to it unless you understand it like some people do. To me, using the TT&F guide is cheating - I like to achieve at a game with my own ability not others. I came to the series after CM01/02 and so never experienced the arrow system, on ball/off ball, but I can understand why people liked it/prefer it. There is some logic in saying when the opposition have the ball I expect my wingers to tuck in and my midfield to drop back. I understand that this went to far and became unrealistic in CM01/02, but it was easy for a user of CM to show what he wanted the team to do - the sliders cannot achieve this in my view as you cannot see it without watching a game. I don't think real managers show there players the sliders before the match and when it all goes wrong during the match go, argggh, its because this slider was slightly too far to the right or cannot find the correct slider that they need to change. They would say when the opposition has the ball, I expect you to drop in here and the midfield to drop back (you cannot express this in the game).

I think that if SI bought back the on ball/off ball system like in CM01/02, but cut down and maybe with sliders that showed what change they were making to the team this would make people feel like they had control and could affect things. I should also add, that I don't think you should be able to say exactly where players go as that would be silly.

Just my thoughts

Thanks

Rob

[pires29]

All I can do is show you the door, it is up to you whether you go through it.

The eight notches was worked out via a little experimentation. I'd agree that the manual doesn't help enough here. The way you have mentality working, you are basically telling your defenders that the team will be playing defensively today, whereas you are telling the attackers the team will be attacking. This leads to a lot of misplaced passes and confusion in the ranks. The team needs to be told what to do (the eight notch margin) with players given more or less attacking roles within that strategy. That's how it works.

1: Holding midfielder. He will hold with a mentality similar to that of the DCs and no FWRs. I just played a match with your tactic and he drifts way too far forward (very noticably too). With the tighter mentality system, he'll automatically be in the right position.

2: It's the fact that two lines are rushing forward, whereas one drops off, which opens a gap, not that you shouldn't be closing down high. Settings need to be closer together, with d-line raised. It is the combination that is killing things. The opposition gets behind the midfield, easily exploits this space and then BANG, goal!!

3: Players can do different things, yes, but within the confines of a tactical plan. They can't do just any old thing, which is how your tactic looks right now. It is fine to adjust things to suit your player, but without a holistic plan, it will be totally disastrous. You need to be sure of the first before trying the second.

4: See three

In a practice game with your tactic, I just suffered the worst league defeat I have ever had in 9 seasons of my current save (4-0), and this was in a match I was 4/6 favourites to win. If you continue pursuing this method, you will never get to grips with the game. You need to reconceptualise your playing methodology or you will never enjoy FM09. I assume you want to, which means first accepting that your methodology is flawed and secondly embracing a working one. Once you do, and really get it, then you'll be able to make the kind of individual adjustments you are trying to make.

WWFan i've found that when I set my holding midfielder to no FWR that he is always 5 yards behind the rest of the midfield which is not what I want him to be doing as most of the time it leads to there being a bigger space between him and my other CM.

[pires29]

Your whole tactic is flawed, Steboyuk.

I've quoted number 4 as a prime example. You have a full back man marking AND bombing forward? How exactly does that work?

Wingers do not man-mark. They mark zonally to stop crosses getting into the box. What's the point in man-marking Ronaldo or Malouda or Reira when Scholes or Lampard or Gerrard can happily take the ball into that area and put in a cross? CBs do man mark just in case that cross DOES come into the box. They also man-mark because when the opposition is defending, if possession gets turned over, the punt back up the field is likely to come to the strikers waiting for just such a chance. If your full backs are ALWAYS forward during attacks, there's a good chance that one of the opposition STs will flick on to the wing and you are suddenly outnumbered.

This is how football works in real life, and also on FM, and you don't need a tactical bible to tell you this - just WATCH A GAME. It's just knowing how to apply what you know about real football to what it means on FM... which I concede isn't always intuitive, certainly not for a first-time FMer. I've played this since CM01/02 so I don't even read the instruction booklet any more. Half a season of experimenting and I'm usually ready to go.

Basic football knowledge + a little FM patience = FM success.

It isn't perfect - it's a GAME for crying out loud - but it's actually very logical when you stop thinking in terms of ultimate tactics and, for too many people on these forums, the way you WANT it to work.

Well parhaps the way to go is back to having separate defensive and attacking tactic screens so that you can sort out what players are supposed to do when with the ball and wihtout it because what he said sounded fair to me.

[RickH]

I have to wholeheartedly agree with 'backpackant'.

Basic football knowledge + a little FM patience = FM success.

...Precisely.

I have played CM/FM for aslong as i can remember, well over 10years now. Obviously in this time i have grown up and the amount of time i can spend playing the game these days is massively reduced, due to having family/work commitments that obviously come first.

This means that i simply dont get time to study and discuss various tactical theories and frameworks, and analyse the game and match engine as much as a lot of the people on these forums do. That certainly does not mean i cant enjoy some amount of success.

Each release i play 3 games. 1st) a game with Man United.. 2nd) a game with Colchester United.. 3rd) a game with a team from the Blue Square South.

On FM08 i played with Havant & W, i loved it, played for about 30 seasons, about 6 of which i spent hovering in the Championship, but the point is, with my basic knowledge of the FM game and its engine, and 20+ years of ridiculous enthusiasm for football, i managed to create tactics, training schedules, signings etc that made my game both enjoyable and succesful.

I am doing the same thing this time round on FM09 with Braintree Town, with some level of success again.

This Football Management Sim is exactly what it says on the tin. You cant just pick it up and have isntant success with any team. You shouldnt expect to. If you do, you bought the wrong game.

For what its worth, my opinion is honestly that i believe that these games improve upon each other every single year. There are ALWAYS gripes about a new version of anything, people get used to how something works and resist change. The fact is the vast majority learn to love the new versions.

FM requires nothing more than a basic understanding of football principles, if you have the patience to react to all the information the game provides you as you play through, it takes nothing more than common sense to build your own success. If you dont have the patience to do it, dont ask the developers to water down the experience that others are having, simply make a better decision when it is time to buy your football sim next season.

[auto98uk]

1. Has anyone else noticed that the latest patch has completely screwed up closing down? I can barely make it a half without having to sub both my ML and MR, and both strikers struggle to see out a game. Obvious decision - reduce closing down. This results in all my players standing off to the extent, that I've actually had an opposing defender, with a long shot rating of 4, score a screamer from thirty yards. Which of course, is "very realistic".

2. I've hated Football Manager since the whole Champ Man split, and I think that the tactics in the current version are simply ridiculous. Quite frankly, I feel that I shouldn't have to spend hours/days/weeks, reading up on other peoples tactics (TT&F '09, etc), just to be able to play.. a GAME (and don't even get me started on the joke that is the SI instruction manual - my dead Gran, could have written something more intelligible than that drivel)! If I want to dedicate my life to football magement, then I will obtain my UEFA badges and actually become a real manager/coach.. and guess what I'd be paid for it, and wouldn't have wasted my life! FM is after all, supposed to be fun and enjoyable, but for the vast majority of users, this game has now become and absolute pain in the arse to play!

3. My point really is this - if you are a real manager you are trained to be so, and have the all the necessary "tactics" at your fingertips (IE - you have been taught them). FM '09, however, expects you to have obtained said badges already, and have intricate knowledge of the tactics of world football - which is quite frankly, a load of crap, otherwise we would all be leading real-life teams to the championships of our choosing. "Realism" - my arse!

4. And to all you "fanboy" idiots out there, FM is supposed to be fun - which it is not, unless you have no actual life to lead of course; FM is supposed to be accessible - it is not (I played Champ Man for the first time when I was 11/12, and absolutely loved it - whereas the current game makes me want to throw my mouse out the window!). FM is supposed to give ordinary armchair fans the excitement of managing their own teams - which it does not, because unless you are a top team, no tactics actually work as they should (and believe me, I have tried).

5. This is not to mention the fact that the FM researchers are clearly biased morons, eg, nearly every season I start in the SPL, sees ICT finish in the top four, even though IRL, they are just off the bottom - "realistic", eh. And don't get me started on the player ratings in the SPL - unrealistic does not even start to explain it.

6. I hate FM 2009, then - I've tried all the tactics out there, and quite frankly am not prepared to dedicate my life to what is after all, just a stupid game. I won't be buying another version of this game until the above is fixed, and I know many hundreds of ordinary "champ man" fans whom won't bother either. Well done SI, for creating one of the most disappointing games I have ever played.

You want constructive criticism when your original rant is plainly wrong in several areas?

1. The fact that he actually scored with a screamer is of course irrelevant to the closing down - in fact it could mean you are doing your job well when they are reduced to having poor long shooters trying from 30 yards - of course occasionally the worst of players will hit the target.

2. I hate to say this, but it sounds like you arren't very intelligent yourself - I and millions of others understood the manual - why can't you? It seems your granny understands it enough to be able to write the manual for it, so why can't you understand it? And the majority play it without even accessing this site - thus your "must read all about it" is also nonsense.

3. This doesn't even mean anything - see above

4. Sigh - another "I can't play the game very well so anyone that can play it and then defends the game must be a fanboy" - stop blaming others for your limitations and inabilities. If you played the first one when you were 11/12 you must be over 30 now? Maybe you are just "growing out" of gaming?

5. That's right - you disagree with something, so those you disagree with must be morons.

6. You do not know "many hundreds" of people who won't be buying it.

Overall, this is another "I'm not very good, and that is the fault of the game" thread.

[roquesantacruz]

To be fair I see the point, some people want to be really tactically involved, but some want to just pick the team/formation/mentalility and go, obviously along with signing players etc. maybe they should incorporate a difficulty level of some sort?

It gets frustrating yes, but its still the best Football Management sim on the market by miles.

[tibasta]

I was one of the most evil with SI when the game was to patch 9.2

now, thanks to 9.3, the game has taken its most important characteristic, the realism.

this is the best football management game on the market, and in my opinion, even from the beautiful satisfactions. since the output is 9.3, which was to return home from work, hoping that my girlfriend is away for work for being able to play FM09.

if anyone was better with the 9.2 means that played in holiday mode and have not looked at the match with 3d/2d. therefore, should not play FM09 but another game of football management, any ...

[WoollenGreg]

WWFan i've found that when I set my holding midfielder to no FWR that he is always 5 yards behind the rest of the midfield which is not what I want him to be doing as most of the time it leads to there being a bigger space between him and my other CM.

guaranteed your other mc is forward runs always then creating a gap between the pair.

[pires29]

Not guarenteed because I normally set the other MC to mixed runs. It shouldn't make a difference anyway becuase I am talking about when I don't have the ball so they should both be in roughly the same area, forward runs should only make a difference when i'm in possession.

[Finners]

*Shrug*

I don't like the 9.3.0 changes so much as I expressed in the other thread - but FM isn't a difficult game to enjoy or be succesful with. I don't think I'm some sort of footballing / FM genius but I find the game easy.

IMO, anyone who can't come up with a winning formation on their own is pretty simple. The game's just common sense. :\

[Rista]

I agree - my tactic is awful, On football manager - however it basically mirrors your average modern day 442 and should be a decent tactic - looking at this tactic there is nothing that jumps out to you as ridiculous. The tactic makes sense - yet on FM its a disaster. Im getting 40% of possesion? Why?

I'm in the same boat as you Steboyuk. I tried to create a simple, logical 4-4-2 that roughly follows the TT&F and slightly tweaked it to get the best of my players' attributes. I watched some matches in full and the tactic just didn't work at all. I had very similar observations like you regarding the MCd sitting in front of the CB and doing basically nothing when set to defensive mentality and FWR rarely.

There was this game against a clearly inferior opposition at home where they literally battered me 3:0. My possesion and passing percentage were absolutelly horrible and even though I watched this game in full as well, I couldn't figure out what was I doing wrong. Then I came across a nice utility that lets you extract AI tactics from saved pkm files. I don't have the pkm anymore but from what I remember, the tactic that made a poor team tear me apart at home went like this: very defensive global mentality, just one notch above 'Ultra Defensive', NO individual player mentalities, high defensive line, fairly wide width, no counter attack, quick tempo, time wasting 4-5 notches above normal and all players but CBs set to forward runs often and therefore no holding midfielder.

What does this tactic even mean? Is my football knowledge that bad or this doesn't sound too logical? What was their game plan, defend, attack or counter? Even when looking at their tactic I can't figure it out as a lot of instructions contradict each other in my view. Are AI managers football geniuses or they simply know how the match engine works and just rely on that and most importantly, is it even worth thinking logically in FM?

[Rupal]

If a tactic like that is successful in this game it really makes you wonder about how realistic FM really is tactically :confused: .

[Rista]

If a tactic like that is successful in this game it really makes you wonder about how realistic FM really is tactically :confused: .

Granted it was only one game but it sure as hell was successful. I did check out another 4-5 games and even though AI tactics were more logical than in that instance, they do follow a similar pattern like all players on global mentality, fullbacks and central midfielders always on forward runs often etc.

[sWo97]

I like 09 better because tactics don't seem to be set in stone. I can use the system i want and make it work. It's not 100% but nothing is.

My only complaints are few and not the biggest problems, just annoyingly consistent:

1. Conceding immediately after scoring. works both for and against me

2. Teams scoring late constantly to win

3. Closing down. my team seems to let them do whatever they want

4. Easy goals conceded due to red cards. i.g. ST running around my CB with ease. They should work my team over not just have the ball placed in the net just cause.

But this is better than using someone elses tactics to dominate

[R-dizzle]

lol.... just lol at this thread.

Or lol at the start anyway... seems to have turned into a decent discussion now.

[PaulC]

Its interesting that the point about AI tactics using global mentalities has been raised. Its true to a point and I think one of the reasons that people can outwit the AI a bit too easily once they hit upon a sensible tactic.

I want to try to make the AI think a little more human for FM2010, and perhaps even get them to have a flick through TT&F.....

[mlp071]

Its interesting that the point about AI tactics using global mentalities has been raised. Its true to a point and I think one of the reasons that people can outwit the AI a bit too easily once they hit upon a sensible tactic.

I want to try to make the AI think a little more human for FM2010, and perhaps even get them to have a flick through TT&F.....

Well PaulC while you at it, perhaps you can take a look at short passing being so(or only one) accurate in lower leagues. Although i have suspicion that is caused by extremely good tackling , almost every game both sides have 100% tackling.

I am big fan of short passing IRL, but if i have team full of players with single digit passing attributes i find it hard to believe that i can do 65+% passing using it( i meant consistently).

And also , "pocket speedster " ST's really scoring with ease.Way to easy and way to many.

For the end i have yet to see fast counterattack in 40+ matches that i played where attacker goes thru without being caught by defense in either team.

I really have no issues playing, and i am not saying that i don't like patch(i just had 2 memorable matches) , but above mentioned things are like thorn in my eye.

[wwfan]

Im sorry - but mentality either needs to be totally overhauled or simply explained - Defenders defend, striker attack - They are worlds apart, but that is football and that is how football works. How am i telling the defending my TEAM is playing defensively today? My team mentality is attacking, and surely my defenders should know that considering we are playing a wide 442 with out and out wingers and two strikers that are set to attacking he realises I want my team to attack, but as i have overuled the mentality for HIM PERSONALLY, Ive told him to defend - he is a defender, his job is to defend. How would that lead to a misplaced pass? just becuase Ive told my striker I want him to attack? Bizarre, and also surely the defender knows were attacking today due to my team talk of expect a win, and my press conference saying we wouldent be holding back? Or are these simply cosmectic and useless areas of the game (wouldent surprise me)

If you want to start enjoying the game again, it doesn't matter how you think it should work, just how it works. You need to have mentalities set closer together, or you will not succeed. Press conferences are not tactical instructions. You might well be spreading misinformation. They do not 'tell' the defenders what to do.

1. Holding mdifelder in my experience is OK where he is and I dont concede particularly many, he seems in a good position for me, rarely passing the half way line until we are in a promising position. When I play him defensively as you suggest, he literraly stands infront of the LCB when they have the ball, doing nothing in particular. Also - im sure your right btw, but if thats true then again the game have got this wrong, defensive midfielders arent fully defensive, or else they would be playing either literrally in DMC position in a THREE MAN MIDFIELD, which I dont use. From what your saying - the same mentality as a DC with no forward runs - So that should work out to him simple standing in a line with your two Cb's? due to them having exactly the same instructions.

Your MC is too far away from the defensive line. He shouldn't drop into the defensive line, but he should be able to protect it. As you have him playing, and how you have the defensive line dropping deep, he steps away from it and is too easily bypassed by through balls. He should be able to make himself available to recycle possession to more attacking players, but also be ready to drop into a defensive position at a second's notice (i.e a water carrier).

Your commenbt about me saying he should drop into the defensive line is your interpretation of what I am saying. At no point did I suggest he should or would do that.

2. Are you seriousley suggesting that midfielders and strikers should not close down? How exactly can you stop the opposition getting in behind my midfield - my defensive mid, who is tight on their most creative attacking mid has him covered, only moving off of him when neccesary, my cnetre backs are NOT dropping off - they have tight marking set to both strikers, therefore the gap isnt that big. Pushing up my defensive line would be suicide due to my Cb's having pace of 12 and 6.

These instructions will mean your midfielders move away from the d-line while the attackers don't have to work hard to be on the shoulder of the defenders. The combination of the above will lead to acres of space between the defensive and midfield lines, with opposing attackers having all the time in the world to beat their man and score form an uncontested through ball. I've seen it happen with your tactic three times in just one game (all resulting in goals).

3. You havent exactly made a point there have you? Im sorry - my left back is a good footballer, my right back isnt the best, more a defensive full back. WHY on earth would i tell them to play the same way? Total rubbish - for example lets say I have Luke Young - a defensive right back who is capable of playing centre half. Hes not the best on the ball but is a solid defender, and Patrice Evra on the left side. Are you seriousley telling me I should make these players play the same way? Watch them in real life - Evra plays as a wingback at the very least and is often higher up the field than the left midfielder in front of him - Luke young is totally different, he gets forward if he has to IE to provide an out ball to a central midfielder, he will very rarely commit further than the winger and certainly dosent try and beat men like evra does on the ball. Accoridng to you (or more the FM match engine), telling them to play their natural game, to the best of their abilities would be wrong, and it would unbalance my tactic, which it wouldent at all.

I, like you, have made a living from coaching my specific sport at a high level. Coaching works at two levels. The first level is easy, it is simply technical. You spot technical flaws and work with them, while perfecting elements in which technique is already good.

The second level, the strategic, is less easy and comes in three parts. Firstly, you have to be sure your player/s understands the basic positioning, movement and decision elements of the game. If he doesn't get those right, his individual strengths and weaknesses cannot be harnessed, as he is always going to be in the wrong position or making a poor decision. Once you have this part right, you can begin to fine tune the more specific elements of his game, to get the best out of his good technique and minimise the problems of his less good technique (i.e. you maiximise his understanding of his own ability in order to help him make the best decision possible in key moments of the match). Finally, you teach him how to work out opponents without your direct help.

If the player doesn't understand the first part, it is impossible to teach the second and third. In your tactical ideas, you are ignoring the first part, how the team works holistically, in order to focus on the second. The result is total schizophrenia. Each player is trying to do what he is good at, but at the total expense of overall strategic organization. All you need, in any sport, to beat someone trying that, is to stick to a game plan. Although your oponent will have moments of instinctive brilliance, they will, over a long period of time, always fall short and become your bunny.

[Rashidi]

Making the interface simpler, while not dumbing down the game, would be an incredible hard task, i'd rather they spent resources on other aspects of the game than on this.

While that is true, SI always take aboard suggestions to make the game interface more intuitive, and while its not possible to get everything right, the direction has always been to improve the game. Dumbing down the game is not something that will happen, but making the GUI more enjoyable to use is always the goal. If you compare the GUI from 2007 - 2009 there have been obvious improvements and there will be continual ones made, both from internal development and from external suggestions via this forum.

[Rashidi]

Its interesting that the point about AI tactics using global mentalities has been raised. Its true to a point and I think one of the reasons that people can outwit the AI a bit too easily once they hit upon a sensible tactic.

I want to try to make the AI think a little more human for FM2010, and perhaps even get them to have a flick through TT&F.....

The next stage should be more "personality-driven" tactics. Different managers and different styles and more individual characteristics of players translated into the 3D. That way one consistent set of tactics may never work again.

I could end up in a game facing a side that uses the wit and speed of a winger and the guile of a AM to rip teams open, we could also see teams building up their attacks down one flank and switch to the other with one sweeping move to open up a defense. Personally that's what I've been looking forward to for the last 2 seasons. Teams would then be playing without global mentalities, defensive teams could be playing with 8 sitting back and only 2 in attack; And attacking sides could have everyone in your half leaving the keeper acting like a sweeper. You could even see stalemate matches where a human manager starts with a defensive tactic only to find his opposite number playing a similar style, or the AI manager could end up matching a tactic that the human is using and countering it with an identical tactic, to force a "stalemate" of sorts.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Bottom line, Mr "gonzdons", if you dont like the game now you may never do.

But then the point made by many about the tactical interface is I think a valid one and one we have definitely taken on board.

What we wont do is dumb the game down, or add difficulty levels. For me the choice of team is your difficulty level.

Diffinitive answer!

As long as more in-game tools are provided (more examples like the Ass Man in match advice) then maybe Paul C has a point.

[r0x0r]

Bottom line, Mr "gonzdons", if you dont like the game now you may never do.

But then the point made by many about the tactical interface is I think a valid one and one we have definitely taken on board.

What we wont do is dumb the game down, or add difficulty levels. For me the choice of team is your difficulty level.

While I accept you won't touch the ME, how do you feel about "dumbing down" tactics by offering a tactics wizard as well as the current "advanced" form? The idea being some people find setting up a new tactic too difficult, so why not give them a co01/02 style tactics page, maybe with a few more options, but only 3-5 options for each setting. The wizard would then fine tune the sliders and individual instructions itself to build you a tactic which worked roughly how you set out in the wizard? In a way it'd "dumb down" tactics, but still let us get into the details and improve the tactic based on our own individual players if we chose to?

[Mike7077]

The game doesn't need dumbing down. I would hate it if they did start doing that, to the point where I'd probably stop buying it because there's plenty of dumbed down management games already out there. I don't read The Independent, wishing it was The Sun.

But to be honest, as I've said in another thread (I think), I'm of the opinion that tactics aren't actually that complicated. I think it's fairly straightforward to understand what the sliders and check boxes mean. I've never felt overwhelmed by them. The only time I've felt overwhelmed was on 9.1.0, when I felt like I couldn't identify my tactics in practice when watching the match. I think SI took this on board because it got better with 9.2.0 and is pretty much spot on with 9.3.0.

[tibasta]

I think that the experience of the 9.3 patch is good.

I really like the tactic.

I fear however that the game is rather simple. I just started my new league with 9.3 (with 9.2 not playing) and half championship, and my team, that is not the strongest in the league, is first. i pass the CL group fase and pass the league cup. I did not made transfer operations.

someone else had the same feeling of ease to win?

[Codename47]

Its interesting that the point about AI tactics using global mentalities has been raised. Its true to a point and I think one of the reasons that people can outwit the AI a bit too easily once they hit upon a sensible tactic.

I want to try to make the AI think a little more human for FM2010, and perhaps even get them to have a flick through TT&F.....

Hi Paul

The AI 4-2-4 tactic (used towards the end of the game to score) is IMHO far far too good. I say this as from my own experience (playing since 1993) if a human tried to use or set up this 4-2-4 the results are not as good as the AI's where they usually score more often than not.

PS - Not so much for me as it can be stopped with the right tactic of course.

The point I am making is a "human" manager being this successful with a 4-2-4 "desperate" tactic to score a goal.

[olfrud]

"Has anyone else noticed that the latest patch has completely screwed up closing down? I can barely make it a half without having to sub both my ML and MR, and both strikers struggle to see out a game. Obvious decision - reduce closing down. This results in all my players standing off to the extent, that I've actually had an opposing defender, with a long shot rating of 4, score a screamer from thirty yards. Which of course, is "very realistic"."

OK, I totally agree with this. But cmon, the game isn't so bad. I think the match angine still needs more polishing because there are so many long shots, bad defending by world class defenders, corner goals (ok, it could happen, but not 4-5 times within a season of aprox 60 games), 20-30+ shots on goal and only 5-6 on target, etc... if SI sort this, then think we will get a great final product. And when we pay money for this game, we expect from SI to do something about this obvious bugs, not just to earn money on the game. They sort a lot of things like one on ones etc from 9.2, but the 9.4 is still required because the matches aren't realistic, but think that SI can make one of the greatest edition from this game if sort this out. That's my personal view, me who play this game from DOS days.

[giantjames]

1 word..................BORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRING

If you don't like the game, don't post a little childish rant on here, just stop playing.

[Horbury]

I have alot of sympathy with the OP's initial post. For me the problem is that it's such a fine line between a successful tactic and a rubbish one. It seems to me that getting wrong one or two variables out of the dozens that define the match outcome can seriously undermine your team's performance.

Not only that, but the sliders used to determine the tactics are entirely abstract. What does a defensive line of 10 mean? That the defensive line is half way between the touch line and the half way line? or on the half way line? I started a thread a week or two ago suggesting that the points on the sliders are defined with a description (either from a tool tip in game or charts in the manual) that describes exactly what is meant with each one. That should help new palyers get into the game and add some realism and clarity to the tactical set up.

[GillsMan]

1 word..................BORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRING

If you don't like the game, don't post a little childish rant on here, just stop playing.

People are entitled to air their views on a game they've paid for.

[dark_trojan]

My biggest complain, and this happens every year is when FM is initially released, it's almost impossible for forwards to score, they basically become footballing donkeys who can't score for dear life, and this is followed by the obvious discontent on these forums, then along comes a new patch which goes from one extreme to another, and now your forwards, become souped up footballing gods who score at will, SI can't seem to find a happy medium, and this bugs me and dampens my enjoyability of FM immensely.

[giantjames]

People are entitled to air their views on a game they've paid for.

I totally agree with that but not in the way this thread was done, just very childish.

[numptymeldon]

I love this years football manager i think SI have truly tried to capture the real footballing environment and to even contemplate the new things they have done is worth a pat on the back. Just wait til 2010 it will have all the kinks ironed out and we will all be happy. But still there will be losers that cant win without reloading or those that blame the game. So to SI well done and good luck, purely for the innovative genious of your games and trying to improve every year i salute you.

[gonzdons]

Lol, that's a joke, you asking for constructive debate after your OP which was far from constructive, just the whining of another poor soul who is not very good at the game.

And, of course, your repost was so wonderfully crafted, was it? I do not think so. And, again, if you have a problem with me having an opinion and airing it, then don't listen - just like I won't bother listening to you, as your assertions are not worth the digital space they are written on!

[gonzdons]

I totally agree with that but not in the way this thread was done, just very childish.

As have your replies been. I think it is pathetic that so many people have criticized me for simply having an opinion, and wanting to use the forum to air it. It is fairly obvious then, that I am not going to get any intelligent discourse from those whom know what they are talking about, as they clearly have so little room left in their lives now, having decided to dedicate all their free time, to a computer game! You seriously might want to have a look at how pathetic your lives really are!

[gonzdons]

You want constructive criticism when your original rant is plainly wrong in several areas?

1. The fact that he actually scored with a screamer is of course irrelevant to the closing down - in fact it could mean you are doing your job well when they are reduced to having poor long shooters trying from 30 yards - of course occasionally the worst of players will hit the target.

2. I hate to say this, but it sounds like you arren't very intelligent yourself - I and millions of others understood the manual - why can't you? It seems your granny understands it enough to be able to write the manual for it, so why can't you understand it? And the majority play it without even accessing this site - thus your "must read all about it" is also nonsense.

3. This doesn't even mean anything - see above

4. Sigh - another "I can't play the game very well so anyone that can play it and then defends the game must be a fanboy" - stop blaming others for your limitations and inabilities. If you played the first one when you were 11/12 you must be over 30 now? Maybe you are just "growing out" of gaming?

5. That's right - you disagree with something, so those you disagree with must be morons.

6. You do not know "many hundreds" of people who won't be buying it.

Overall, this is another "I'm not very good, and that is the fault of the game" thread.

Hahahahaha.. thank you very much for that most entertaining of posts. Your parents must be very proud to have such an insightful, and intelligent child. "Child" being the operative word, of course.

[La Furia Roja]

glad your back...

[gonzdons]

he was banned/infracted for swearing mainly, i agree with it, there was no need, someone gave an opinion on his post and he told them to ***** off!

i think this thread may be done now

Oh no, please don't cry, I didn't mean to hurt your fellingsy, weelingsies. I thought this forum was for adults, and assumed as such that the people on it, would have the maturity and sensibilities to match - but I guess not.

[gonzdons]

All I did was reply, and might I add without swearing or namecalling, to his whine post? It is hardly inciting to tell him to stop whining, he himself said he failed at the game, not like i sprung out form below the troll-hideout-bridge and called him a loser.

Drunkpunk: I simply do not understand people saying the game is becoming harder. To me it is more or less, in regards to tatics and economy, the same as it's been since 2d was introduced. Yes more features are added and the game has been made more deep, but generally, with exception perhaps being 09 with a new engine acting *a bit* differently, you've always known what to expect.

Now who is whining? Nice skirt though.. really shows off your calves.

[gonzdons]

Tbh, im getting sick of people like you constantly moaning about FM, simple, if you dont like it? dont play it, shut up moaning for gods sake, i think its ace like most 'Football Manager Fans'

Good for you - I don't find it "ace" (what is this, 1985?). Oh right, but I'm not allowed to say that I don't like it, am I?

[La Furia Roja]

mate just leave it, this thread was dead, you said your piece move on, you keep going on about people being childish and spending to much time on FM etc and you keep posting things like the above, its gone a long way off topic and is pretty much done. Would be good if you dont get banend as you seem to have some decent opinions and would contribute well to this forum so maybe stop the insults and stay an active user?