Here's why Gegenpress is OP

[b2khn]

7 minutes ago, herne79 said:

You are of course missing the point.

If people want to test things out have at it, not a problem.  The problem starts when said people release videos which appear to show either issues with the game and/or “how the game works”.  This gets into the mindset of others and it quickly becomes “fact”.  But at no point is the data given to SI for them to check and investigate.  But you’d like SI to monitor every video that gets released in the hope that they can find the data?  Come on.  All EBFM (and others) need do is open a bug report, say “hey SI something seems off here can you take a look” and upload the data to SI’s servers.  It takes 30 seconds.  And once SI have looked into it they can include the results in their video.  But they don’t do that.

So this is nothing to do with “cozy relationships”, not liking people testing things or being “fans” as someone else above said.  It’s about integrity of data and people in the community being affected by the lack thereof.  Just give the data to SI and all of this goes away.  Hilarious indeed.

And at this point, SI could just hire 100 random data scientists, that tests this game 24h in an Independent manor. Most likely guys, that are like EBFM, but don't wanna go public with their stuff all the time.

[Rashidi]

52 minutes ago, Andrew Marines said:

in the meanwhile, don't know how you would ask SI for help on those things. Are you just gonna open a thread here or write a Direct message to the staff or ...?

Same way me and the rest get SI involved in our simulations, we submit a bug report. SI reviews them and then sometimes they explain whether we are heading into a rabbits hole or we’ve found something worth considering.  To be fair SI have always encouraged feedback. You just need to be willing to have your whole testing process and data verified. I once embarrassed myself when I thought I had found an issue but SI pointed out to me my error and we laughed cos they took it seriously. At the end of the day if you do it the right way, you get plenty of constructive feedback. 

[themadsheep2001]

I played with @Daveincid mod in FM23, and while i really enjoyed it immensely for loads of other elements, it didnt really impact the effectiveness of high pressing tactic, unless you dont build or look after your squad properly. 

[Daveincid]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb themadsheep2001:

I played with @Daveincid mod in FM23, and while i really enjoyed it immensely for loads of other elements, it didnt really impact the effectiveness of high pressing tactic, unless you dont build or look after your squad properly. 

I'm glad you liked it:) I completely agree. Of course you'll still be able to use high pressing tactics in a very effective way IF you manage your squad properly. My goal was mainly that you can't just successfully (most times) "plug & play" such tactics without taking several other factors into account.

[themadsheep2001]

3 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

I'm glad you liked it:) I completely agree. Of course you'll still be able to use high pressing tactics in a very effective way IF you manage your squad properly. My goal was mainly that you can't just successfully (most times) "plug & play" such tactics without taking several other factors into account.

Yeah it forces you to do things i naturally do anyway, so in that sense there is no difference for me. 

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb themadsheep2001:

Yeah it forces you to do things i naturally do anyway, so in that sense there is no difference for me. 

Makes sense

[baris28]

These types of discussions doesn't go well with moderators or fans. While I like overall match engine this year I advocate (not a fan or moderator but as a player from past) for future versions I would limit engine for player roles only, NO  team instructions. I don't see much apart from counter attack intruction clearly visibile in match engine.

[Ein]

The video actually shows that most things (player condition, injuries, distance covered, stamina, work rate, etc) are working as expected. When you say that the experiment is fallacious, does that apply to those things as well?

The issue the OP refers to is with mentality and trigger press seemingly having no effect on condition. The video's author does in fact mention that playing defensively does not necessarily translate into covering less distance as you would then still have to run after your opponent.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Ein

[AurioDK]

Gegenpress has a lot of issues and yes, players do tire faster from high tempo and gegenpress combined, I can firmly attest to it since I use it when I am a goal down. Playing my regular cautious counter has far less impact on how tired players get and how often I am forced to rotate.

 

Gegenpress will cause issues with heavy player rotation if you have too many "regular starters" in your team since some of them will inevitably not get enough football, complains will come your way and your performances might degrade.

 

Playing against a high tempo team will also tire your players, especially if you are playing a good side where chasing is all your players do.

 

There are issues with the match engine, gegenpress is not one of them. Playing a high tempo game all 90 minutes with a squad of misfits is perhaps overlooked when people talk gegenpress, they usually combine those two.

[Rashidi]

Injuries aren’t high enough in the game. And that is the problem. And it shouldn’t be limited to whether a team is playing a high pressing game or not. In the premier league currently there are quite a few teams with at least 8 players out with injury, 2 teams have been in double digits for months now. Hamstring injuries are the most common injury, and this I feel needs to be addressed. 
 

Palace have 10 player injured and they don’t even press as aggressively as Spurs who until this weekend were also in double digits. In FM the most I’ve ever seen are 6. 

[XaW]

I wrote this in another thread claiming to prove something about the game and alot rings true here too:

On 09/05/2023 at 21:23, XaW said:

Fine, let's do this:

• The experiment is flawed because it fails to control enough variables.
• You have run it once as far as I know. You are not even scratching the surface to know where on the curve that run happened. What is your standard deviation for example?
• Your entire experiment is flawed as your hypothesis is prime for confirmation bias. You haven't even given much thought in how to disprove your own hypothesis, as far as I can tell. Just a random test where you seemingly randomly changed some attributes.
• As far as I can tell, you haven't uploaded your save for anyone to look at to confirm your findings.
• You've used something that looks very much like an exploit tactic (I think I've seen it or a very like one in knap's thread).
• Once again, VARIABLES, and here is one example of what I mean:
  • How did the goals happen? What if most are scored from corners because you use a corner exploit? Would that still mean Pace is important?
• You are failing to acknowledge that different attributes might might be more important in different setups .So to "Prove" anything, you'd have to have a representative sample of different tactical setups and run each setup for a number of times for each attribute and thus create a standard deviation and evaluate from there. It would be very time consuming to do it, but if you did that then I would accept your claim, but not before. Until then you have a hypothesis, or a theory at best and not backed up by the same empirical evidence you ask for.

And I don't mean to say you are wrong, you could be right for all I know, but I really despise claims like "proof" or "truth" or the like for simple tests that does not do the actual legwork required to prove anything. This is not on you alone, I've seen enough of these types of hyperbolic and exaggerated claims be hyped up around lately to be rather annoyed at it, so take it for what it is.

Most of these experiments are fundamentally flawed, why? Because they can't control the variables. Let me explain. When you play a game and go to the end you can save that info, but replay the game with the EXACT same setup from both teams and the result can be different. This is because there are some random variables that happen for every match, and these can and will have compounding effects through each match. And if you fail to control all these variables, you cannot prove anything. Sure, you can see trends and perhaps even theorize some issues, but you cannot prove anything. And if you can theorize something, then you can report it to SI and have them review it with their internal  tools who are likely to control the variables we users cannot. @Rashidi has posted about it several times here, and I can only echo his statements. It's fine to run experiments, and you might even stumble onto issues, but if you cannot know for sure if you have found something or not before you let SI investigate. And if you don't report to SI, and just post videos about it you are likely to report false information which many might take as truth!

Are there issues with the game, of course. Have I encountered them? Yes. Have I reported issues and written long details criticisms of the game? Yes to that too. Just because I have the "Mod" tag by my name, doesn't mean I'm not critical of SI and FM as a product. The same goes for the other mods, we are not here as shills for SI, we are here to make sure order is kept and the rules of the board are followed, not to pander to SI and make it out as they are infallible or the game is perfect. I don't think I've seen anyone be as straight forward critical of SI as @Rashidi at times!  We just want facts and not ideas to be semented as the truth.

[JordanMilly]

On 10/12/2023 at 02:11, phnompenhandy said:

You can hate on EBFM all you like, but do you really deny that Gegenpress is overpowered? It's too obvious to pretend otherwise, whether you agree with EBFM or not.  Case in point - I'm a Lower League Manager trying to keep things 'realistic'. Therefore, with young part-time players, I don't employ gegenpressing tactics because I don't think they could manage it for 90 mins over a season. But I see other LLMs DO use it as an exploit and go through seasons unbeaten with 95% wins. Part-time players should be dropping dead after half a dozen games using GP. They should be on their knees after 60 mins. Of course it's ridiculously overpowered and a tactical exploit.

Yes - because I'm playing a relatively non-pressing version of the 4-3-3 DM wide, mostly pulling back when out of possession to make it hard for them to advance, and I'm absolutely destroying teams that are doing gegenpressing, because I'm making them do all the work and then catching them on the counter.

It's no where near as overpowered as it was previously, and with the injury levels more realistic this year, you soon realise you can't push your players that hard constantly without frequently having them get hurt either in matches or in training.

[JordanMilly]

On 11/12/2023 at 05:11, Rashidi said:

If are implying that this cozy relationship is to protect SI, that is your opinion. As always people are free to believe what they want. That controlled group experiment won't work, but you seem to believe that is the best way to test his hypothesis? In a made up world that doesn't even come close to the actual FM world, where things like morale, happiness, team talks, squad selections, managers preferred formations all play a part. That factors like match blend, training and other stuff also make an impact? There have been many experiments and simulations run by people here on the forums, some of these experiments have led to changes by SI to the game. Lyssien ran a training experiment that SI used to improve training, that too led to further experiments on the impact of personalities on development. I ran a simulation for 5 seasons, explained the methodology to SI and that led to a change in training. Davencid ran simulations which led to SI making small changes as well.  I ran a simulation to prove that a role was overpowered and it needed to be dialed down and backed it up with a lot of proof, SI reviewed it and made changes to the role. Your implication that we are all a cozy family is off base. There have of course been heated discussions between us and SI too, but at least we are constructive. What these videos do is insult the good work that others have done, and encourage a myopic point of view. I am not here to defend SI, but stop people from insulting others who run good experiments that lead to positive change.Are aggressive tactics OP? They can be, but so can other systems. There are factors that lead to these systems being stronger, and its not the tactical system itself, but something else.  Does the game need improvement, Yes, it does. Yeah but here is the kicker....if you are running an experiment that doesnt' even come close to the actual gameworld, where you artificially change parameters that don't even exist in people's saves then how does any developer know whats the fundamental issue? Is it match blend, hang on he zeroed all the attributes, now we won't know. Is it unhappiness or morale, damn he zeroed those too now its purely the tactic. How does that even help SI? It does help the content creators views on youtube. If he was serious he like many other chaps who have done experiments before he would have done the responsible thing, engage and not sensationalize. Hey but those are the times we live in right. Sensationalize first then rationalize?

Plenty of experiments have been done, and SI actually takes these into consideration. They do make changes when the experiments and simulations are realistic.  and like we said before if he wanted to engage and find out if his methodology needed improvement, he could have. SI is always open to this, they have helped others who run experiments improve theirs.  SI will probably not even wade into these waters again, cos they have checked his previous experiments only to suggest that his assumptions and parameters are wrong.

Plus, having seen how critical Rashidi is of tactical and match engine side issues when they seem to be counter to how either the tooltips present them or how they behave IRL, I know full well he isn't wanting to protect SI - he's wanting FM to be better.

Part of that is by providing passionate constructive criticism where it is due, and part of that is seeking to highlight where people have things wrong so they're more aware of how the system does work, and therefore aid them in providing better criticism and data to help the game.

[phnompenhandy]

14 minutes ago, JordanMilly said:

Yes - because I'm playing a relatively non-pressing version of the 4-3-3 DM wide, mostly pulling back when out of possession to make it hard for them to advance, and I'm absolutely destroying teams that are doing gegenpressing, because I'm making them do all the work and then catching them on the counter.

It's no where near as overpowered as it was previously, and with the injury levels more realistic this year, you soon realise you can't push your players that hard constantly without frequently having them get hurt either in matches or in training.

That's good to know, from someone who plays the game "properly". But I see players who use Instant Result for part-time teams with young players and Gegenpressing or other forms of high-intensity tactics, who therefore don't adjust in-game and allow the AI to make no substitutions until after 75 minutes. So they do

Quote

push your players that hard constantly

with no significant ill-effects.

[JordanMilly]

On 11/12/2023 at 09:22, herne79 said:

You are of course missing the point.

If people want to test things out have at it, not a problem.  The problem starts when said people release videos which appear to show either issues with the game and/or “how the game works”.  This gets into the mindset of others and it quickly becomes “fact”.  But at no point is the data given to SI for them to check and investigate.  But you’d like SI to monitor every video that gets released in the hope that they can find the data?  Come on.  All EBFM (and others) need do is open a bug report, say “hey SI something seems off here can you take a look” and upload the data to SI’s servers.  It takes 30 seconds.  And once SI have looked into it they can include the results in their video.  But they don’t do that.

So this is nothing to do with “cozy relationships”, not liking people testing things or being “fans” as someone else above said.  It’s about integrity of data and people in the community being affected by the lack thereof.  Just give the data to SI and all of this goes away.  Hilarious indeed.

Plus, SI are very approachable about this stuff if it's genuinely seeking to help or highlight an issue.

Hell, Chesnoid (Twitch & Youtube streamer) had, in his Cambridge save, all 3 of his goalkeepers get 3 week-3 month injuries in the span of a week in-game, and since this was after the patch to fix GK injuries, he sent his save over to SI to check whether it was just pure bad luck that it'd happened, or if it was an issue of the fix not doing enough.

Ended up with him just being unlucky (one got injured in a match, the other got injured in training, and the third had low sharpness and hurt himself in a match), but SI were more than happy to check to ensure it wasn't a bug resurfacing after they thought they'd squashed it, and he doesn't have a super pinky-promise close relationship with SI.

[Ngoc]

Lot of crazies here he is a user using the game without breaking anything posting a video of whatever he want without saying anything is “broken” but just posting the data not only he include all the excel and the saved files for you to test the same way he did! And because of that you all guy say he did something wrong 

what is wrong with you all? I rather he gave the data to me as he did posting it “available to all for download” so I can make my own opinion and conclusion rather than work for free for SI if SI really need these type of data (and I hope they do tons of those test without expecting player to do them for them) hire someone extra don’t expect it for free from players

Again you are all crazy if you think he did something wrong 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Ngoc

[herne79]

41 minutes ago, Ngoc said:

Lot of crazies here he is a user using the game without breaking anything posting a video of whatever he want without saying anything is “broken” but just posting the data not only he include all the excel and the saved files for you to test the same way he did! And because of that you all guy say he did something wrong 

what is wrong with you all? I rather he gave the data to me as he did posting it “available to all for download” so I can make my own opinion and conclusion rather than work for free for SI if SI really need these type of data (and I hope they do tons of those test without expecting player to do them for them) hire someone extra don’t expect it for free from players

Again you are all crazy if you think he did something wrong 

I'll try one last time because people just aren't getting it, maybe I'm not being clear enough.

There is no problem at all with tests being run.  That's great, everyone welcomes it including SI.

The issue starts when the results of those tests are made public before the data and results have been checked by SI.  Without that check, viewers may be misled by potentially erroneous and inaccurate information.

The only thing that the "crazies" want is to avoid this.  We're actually trying to help people like you to get accurate information and the only way to ensure you get that accuracy is to point out that SI needs to verify the findings of these type of videos, ideally before the videos get released.  It's pointless you getting the data to make your own opinion if that data is unchecked.  You checking (potentially) bad data is going to give you a bad result.

So yeh, call me crazy all you like, but the fact remains there is only one group of people who know exactly how the game works, and that's SI.  As I said before, just have EBFM (and others) give their data to SI before releasing videos and threads like this wouldn't even begin. 

Edited December 12, 2023 by herne79

[BeeInExile]

4 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Injuries aren’t high enough in the game. And that is the problem. And it shouldn’t be limited to whether a team is playing a high pressing game or not. In the premier league currently there are quite a few teams with at least 8 players out with injury, 2 teams have been in double digits for months now. Hamstring injuries are the most common injury, and this I feel needs to be addressed. 
 

Palace have 10 player injured and they don’t even press as aggressively as Spurs who until this weekend were also in double digits. In FM the most I’ve ever seen are 6. 

Yes, exactly. Three of the most common complaints in how the game works:

-You can run really high intensity tactics without suffering ill-effects.

-Youth players don't get picked enough so they can't develop.

-Physical attributes are king - mental and technical attributes are less important.

 

All three of these would be alleviated by having injuries at a realistic level, instead of the reported 80% of reality that is programmed into the game. But if a patch is perceived to have too many injuries, watch a large section of the fan-base scream bloody murder. Personally I would rather SI just ignored these people, but at any rate if people are complaining about the above, they should realise they can't have it both ways.

[Golob]

19 минут назад, herne79 сказал:

I'll try one last time because people just aren't getting it, maybe I'm not being clear enough.

There is no problem at all with tests being run.  That's great, everyone welcomes it including SI.

The issue starts when the results of those tests are made public before the data and results have been checked by SI.  Without that check, viewers may be misled by potentially erroneous and inaccurate information.

The only thing that the "crazies" want is to avoid this.  We're actually trying to help people like you to get accurate information and the only way to ensure you get that accuracy is to point out that SI needs to verify the findings of these type of videos, ideally before the videos get released.  It's pointless you getting the data to make your own opinion if that data is unchecked.  You checking (potentially) bad data is going to give you a bad result.

So yeh, call me crazy all you like, but the fact remains there is only one group of people who know exactly how the game works, and that's SI.  As I said before, just have EBFM (and others) give their data to SI before releasing videos and threads like this wouldn't even begin. 

So many caring people…lol

”viewers may be misled by potentially erroneous and inaccurate information”, “we’re trying to help people like you to get accurate information”, “you checking (potentially) bad data is going to give you a bad result”…lol

Thanks, but I do not need your help, fine on my own. I prefer getting more information from various sources and making my own conclusions.  Luckily people like you are unable to shut the guy up.

[herne79]

14 minutes ago, Golob said:

So many caring people…lol

”viewers may be misled by potentially erroneous and inaccurate information”, “we’re trying to help people like you to get accurate information”, “you checking (potentially) bad data is going to give you a bad result”…lol

Thanks, but I do not need your help, fine on my own. I prefer getting more information from various sources and making my own conclusions.  Luckily people like you are unable to shut the guy up.

*sigh*

[herne79]

2 minutes ago, Ngoc said:

NAZI

Aaaand you win the thread.  This is getting silly now.

[Rashidi]

51 minutes ago, BeeInExile said:

Yes, exactly. Three of the most common complaints in how the game works:

-You can run really high intensity tactics without suffering ill-effects.

-Youth players don't get picked enough so they can't develop.

-Physical attributes are king - mental and technical attributes are less important.

 

All three of these would be alleviated by having injuries at a realistic level, instead of the reported 80% of reality that is programmed into the game. But if a patch is perceived to have too many injuries, watch a large section of the fan-base scream bloody murder. Personally I would rather SI just ignored these people, but at any rate if people are complaining about the above, they should realise they can't have it both ways.

My point is that high injuries irl are not limited to high intensity systems. Palace for example have had more injuries than Liverpool, yeah and I am in complete agreement with you.

[priority76]

Just now, herne79 said:

*sigh*

Engaging with idiots is likely to result in frustration.

[Rashidi]

This is a discussion whete rude and abusive language will not be tolerated on the forums. Please be polite.

[Freakiie]

Oh boy, I wonder why certain posts got deleted. Surely can't have anything to do with you having a massive attitude, no must be the evil mods silencing you.

[XaW]

For the record, the mods have removed some posts in here, not because of any disagreement, but because a lot of derogatory insults were thrown about. Discussions are welcome, and people are more than free to run experiments (we even have a subforum for it!) and see how the game works in certain conditions. We just want people to explain what they have found rather than draw conclusions based on faulty logic and aim for views and internet clout over reporting it to SI for verification beforehand.

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 hours ago, priority76 said:

Engaging with idiots is likely to result in frustration.

It's often my mental gymnastics for the day 

[jcafcwbb]

I have watched this video and I do think that people are making a mountain out of a molehill.

What his evidence does is to support a core thing that SI promotes. That the players Overall Fitness at the start of the game is the biggest factor as to whether a player plays well and stays clear of fatigue and injury. He has used the method of keeping all the but the tested attribute the same and there is rationale in his method.

Naturally in the game players have different attributes but one thing to consider is a high tempo, high trigger press does not mean you will be fatigued. For instance Man City play with a high press and work-rate off the ball but can dodge fatigue because they also have a high possession stat which will have an effect on their fitness.

I actually think that possession could have a bigger effect on fitness than the tactical style as that allows rest.

[Matteo3champions]

@Rashiditalking about variables that impact in game and player fitness, can i ask you how much temperature impact in the condition of a player?

[paracoolo]

On 11/12/2023 at 14:58, baris28 said:

These types of discussions doesn't go well with moderators or fans. While I like overall match engine this year I advocate (not a fan or moderator but as a player from past) for future versions I would limit engine for player roles only, NO  team instructions. I don't see much apart from counter attack intruction clearly visibile in match engine.

would be better to remove roles than team instructions tho... Roles imo is what sells FM in terms of tactics but atst since some people think it doesnt behave the way they want it  or FM describes it, its better than removing team instructions. If you remove team instructions, you cant decide what style of play you want to play and that literally kills the purpose of FM? You're a manager. You are the one that decides how your team plays. 

[paracoolo]

4 hours ago, jcafcwbb said:

I have watched this video and I do think that people are making a mountain out of a molehill.

What his evidence does is to support a core thing that SI promotes. That the players Overall Fitness at the start of the game is the biggest factor as to whether a player plays well and stays clear of fatigue and injury. He has used the method of keeping all the but the tested attribute the same and there is rationale in his method.

Naturally in the game players have different attributes but one thing to consider is a high tempo, high trigger press does not mean you will be fatigued. For instance Man City play with a high press and work-rate off the ball but can dodge fatigue because they also have a high possession stat which will have an effect on their fitness.

I actually think that possession could have a bigger effect on fitness than the tactical style as that allows rest.

I agree with you on that. Most people that say gegenpress is op and look at the physical condition often forget that somegames you have around 60% possession. If you have more of the ball you will run less. The ball goes faster than the players. Hence why some people can play gegenpressing and manage to keep their players with good physical conditions no matter the stamina stat. Remember also in Gegenpressing, your playmaker is the pressing! So its like counter attacking but instead of regrouping and pressing in your own zone, there's plenty of pressing traps to win the ball quickly and counter from there. Gegenpressing is not just some players running around like dogs when they lose the ball. There's a preparation/organization behind it. if all the 11 players ran to the opposite team player that just gained the ball, the player could easily pass it back to the gk or long-ball it to the front.

Edited December 13, 2023 by paracoolo

[paracoolo]

Imo a quick fix to that is to make tactics like Gegenpressing,Tiki-taka,Vertical tiki-taka harder to master ( Tactical Familiarity) and it gets harder depending on  the avg CA of your squad or the league in general.

This would replicate irl a bit. Since its hard to have a very sound pressing system that works against most teams.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by paracoolo

[paracoolo]

11 hours ago, BeeInExile said:

Yes, exactly. Three of the most common complaints in how the game works:

-You can run really high intensity tactics without suffering ill-effects.

-Youth players don't get picked enough so they can't develop.

-Physical attributes are king - mental and technical attributes are less important.

 

All three of these would be alleviated by having injuries at a realistic level, instead of the reported 80% of reality that is programmed into the game. But if a patch is perceived to have too many injuries, watch a large section of the fan-base scream bloody murder. Personally I would rather SI just ignored these people, but at any rate if people are complaining about the above, they should realise they can't have it both ways.

you're right. I realized there's less injuries than before. When there was a lot (I think in the first version of fm24) I used to complain about it but I realized it brings the opportunity to play my younger players too and to also rotate the squad more. It also helps in making leagues more unpredictable. (per example: City may be less good than last season because Haaland and KDB are both injured. )

Edited December 13, 2023 by paracoolo

[Dagenham_Dave]

9 hours ago, paracoolo said:

you're right. I realized there's less injuries than before. When there was a lot (I think in the first version of fm24) I used to complain about 

The only thing SI have changed about injuries since the beta was released is to lower the frequency of goalkeeper injuries. 

Injuries in general weren't touched, so no, there's not 'less injuries than before'. 

[dannyo666]

20 hours ago, BeeInExile said:

Yes, exactly. Three of the most common complaints in how the game works:

-You can run really high intensity tactics without suffering ill-effects.

-Youth players don't get picked enough so they can't develop.

-Physical attributes are king - mental and technical attributes are less important.

 

All three of these would be alleviated by having injuries at a realistic level, instead of the reported 80% of reality that is programmed into the game. But if a patch is perceived to have too many injuries, watch a large section of the fan-base scream bloody murder. Personally I would rather SI just ignored these people, but at any rate if people are complaining about the above, they should realise they can't have it both ways.

Physical attributes are king - mental and technical attributes are less important.

Ive found they are not only king but it seems physical and mental are all you need for the base 24 game.Its like technical dont matter at all which is so strange...you play any player with great physical and mental anywhere and they will do an awesome job...If you use a CB as a forward(especially a target man)he will get goals galore...i really dont understand why technicals dont seem to matter very much anymore

 

[Etebaer]

When you look at the tactics used and the intensity difference - it is not that much!

I doubt Gegenpress is as exhausting by increasing the intensity of a tactic than it my be the common belief.

Also my experience is that exhaustion sets in over a larger series of games and not in a single game - means only starting with already exhausted players (usualy marked as players in need of a rest) will hurt you!

Maybe if there was a tactic that filled the intensitiy bar to the max instead of 75% to 80% it may be different but then in the end it will only make a difference in a single match if your opponents somewho are not equally exhausted and i dont see how that could happen as being pressed exhausts you as much as do the pressing.

So its natural that it will not make a difference in a single match or when your players are able to recover between the matches and is more a longer term thing when you have one of these weird SI match every 2 or 3 days fixtures with no rest for a week or two that it will even matter.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Etebaer

[stopazricky]

Il 11/12/2023 in 09:58 , Rashidi ha scritto:

I understand where you are coming from, just frustrates me when someone consumes a lot of time doing experiments like this and doesn’t wade in for help. No skin off my back.

 

Il 11/12/2023 in 10:22 , herne79 ha scritto:

But at no point is the data given to SI for them to check and investigate.  But you’d like SI to monitor every video that gets released in the hope that they can find the data?  Come on.  All EBFM (and others) need do is open a bug report, say “hey SI something seems off here can you take a look” and upload the data to SI’s servers.  It takes 30 seconds.  And once SI have looked into it they can include the results in their video.  But they don’t do that.

I believe your aversion to accept EBFM's findings is at least partially caused by what you perceive as antagonism on his side - you feel like you and your tests are trying to help SI, whereas he and his tests are attacks towards the developers. That's something that rubs you the wrong way and makes you unwilling to accept that his tests are actually reasonably accurate (more on that later).

But the thing is - have you watched the guy's content? He's incredibly humble, he does not clickbait, he never said anything mean about SI and in fact for the most part he always tries to find reasonable explanations for the weird stuff he comes across. His video wasn't called "CONDITION IN FM24 IS BROKEN". Hell, he's even boring to watch! He doesn't look like a guy that lives by "Sensationalize first then rationalize", quoting Rashidi.

Now, onto the matter of the discussion: is the test setup scientifically valid? Well, none of you convinced me otherwise.
See, you listed 50 different things that could alter the results of the matches, and you are correct in doing so. But precisely because they were kept in control (by zeroing them or maxing them), you either have to accept that: 
A) They could have affected the test results in an UNEVEN way; or
B) They aren't relevant to the test.

See, let's take Morale. Maybe it was maxed out, maybe it was half the way, but are you really suggesting that Condition consumption is influenced by that? And not only that, but that its effect is uneven - meaning that aggressively pressing consumes just as much Condition as rarerly pressing, but only when your players are happy?

How about complacency (something else that was in @herne79's list of stuff EBFM supposedly glossed over): are you guys suggesting that being complacent because you've been winning a lot lately affects how well your players breathe? How can complacency be the explanation as to why a Gegenpress tactic didn't wear the players out any more than a patient one? Yes, there are hundreds more factors, but they are obviously irrelevant. Another example: Altitude? Well, it does in fact affect breathing in real life, but he definitely did not test this stuff in Mexico City. So, does the expected and reasonable effect on Condition of a Gegenpress tactic completely fade away as soon as you're 300 metres above sea levels?

Just saying "it's more complex than that" is not a valid explanation of why EBFM is wrong.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, stopazricky said:

I believe your aversion to accept EBFM's findings is at least partially caused by what you perceive as antagonism on his side - you feel like you and your tests are trying to help SI, whereas he and his tests are attacks towards the developers. That's something that rubs you the wrong way and makes you unwilling to accept that his tests are actually reasonably accurate (more on that later).

Nope.  I think he is genuinely trying to help.

I was going to reply again to other points mentioned but it's kinda pointless at this stage.  If he'd just open a bug report and give SI his data all of this goes away, one way or another.

Edited December 13, 2023 by herne79

[themadsheep2001]

Probably as good place as any to close the thread tbh