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WELL DONE ENGLANDS WOMEN - can’t wait to manage on FM 🏆 🏆 🏆


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Hidden a post since it wasn't really fitting with the thread. Speculating on the exact mechanics of how it will be implemented only really detracts from the enjoyment many have had. Hopefully events like this in turn help bring more people interested in the game development side to the table to help SI with their implementation and getting it ready in due course. 

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8 hours ago, bartdude said:

I agree, it wouldn't be a mammoth programming task to add the WSL and the Championship to available leagues.

It wouldn't be a mammoth task to do the bare minimum, no.  What will be a massive task is doing it properly.  If all they did was add some leagues, create some players and flick the gender button, that's the sort of half-arsed approach you'd get from some other developers of football games.  But to do it properly, it's likely you're going to need at least another variant of the ME (if not something close to a new ME), a rethink of how the gameworld and the AI operates, and much more.

 

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4 minutes ago, forameuss said:

It wouldn't be a mammoth task to do the bare minimum, no.  What will be a massive task is doing it properly.  If all they did was add some leagues, create some players and flick the gender button, that's the sort of half-arsed approach you'd get from some other developers of football games.  But to do it properly, it's likely you're going to need at least another variant of the ME (if not something close to a new ME), a rethink of how the gameworld and the AI operates, and much more.

 

Agree it needs a bit more than just a gender change but really cannot see why it would need a new match engine?

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4 minutes ago, VP. said:

Agree it needs a bit more than just a gender change but really cannot see why it would need a new match engine?

With the best will in the world, have you watched a game of women's football compared to men's?  There's a completely different approach to the two that would be better modelled with different engines.  You don't need to have a different one, but again it comes down to how accurately you want to portray the game.  You could just chuck some new leagues in and put something hard-coded in the core of the game to ensure they don't mix, but that would be a poor approximation.  Better to take the time and do it properly, which they seem to be doing.

It would also be a great opportunity for SI themselves.  It's probably very unlikely that they would normally get to carve out the time to have a proper rethink of the Match Engine given the cycle.  If they start out with the intention of solving this problem, they get more eyes on the engine and its processes.  It could well bring significant benefits across the engine as a whole.

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Miles made a very informative blog post although I don't remember the exact link and title. It was generally explaining that it was going to take the perspective of being a lot more in depth and a very serious push to get it right rather than just getting something in the game you could label as women's football and take it from there. You could absolutely see an argument from one side of just get it in the game working with what's there and build up on it over time but there's always some cynicism you can attach to that. Taking the time to get it right is definitely going to take longer but should result in something much more complete and still be built upon further over time.

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27 minutes ago, santy001 said:

Miles made a very informative blog post although I don't remember the exact link and title. It was generally explaining that it was going to take the perspective of being a lot more in depth and a very serious push to get it right rather than just getting something in the game you could label as women's football and take it from there. You could absolutely see an argument from one side of just get it in the game working with what's there and build up on it over time but there's always some cynicism you can attach to that. Taking the time to get it right is definitely going to take longer but should result in something much more complete and still be built upon further over time.

This one, you mean?

 

https://www.footballmanager.com/news/how-were-introducing-womens-football-football-manager

 

If not, I am really interested to see if there's more information about it.

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Taking the time to do it justice is 100% the right approach. But I can't help thinking of Alex Scott's fantastic words after the final.

 

“So many people said no. I hope you’re all looking at yourselves right now because you weren’t brave enough. I’m not standing up at corporate events in front of sponsors any more begging for them to get involved in the women’s game, because, you know what? If you’re not involved then you’ve missed the boat, you’ve missed the train because it’s finally left the station and it is gathering speed.”

 

SI (or, quite possibly, SEGA approving the investment) are far, far too late. I think they probably realise that, given the announcement last year that it would be coming eventually to appease everyone asking about it. But it's been requested for a very, very long time, with it even being said that it wouldn't be financially viable to add until the Women's Super League was on-par in finances and attendences with the Championship. They are always keen to make gestures towards social justice in the game, but at the end of the day profitability was chosen ahead of equality. Football Manager should've been driving women's football forwards, not jumping on the bandwagon once women had won their uphill fight for recognition. 

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Think the financial and transfer model might be even more work than the ME changes. Women's football has considerably fewer professional clubs and clubs period, different funding models, completely different patterns of free transfers and international transfers and arguably more expectations of rapid growth than men's football. Again, you could just stick 150CA internationals into a lower-league mens football transfer model plus cash injections and international moves and tweak some numbers, but that might not be so great. The flip side of that is there's a lot about the current men's model that's less than ideal and some of the work done to make a women's football model work (especially matching players to clubs when there aren't many suitable clubs in the market) might help evolve the men's model too.

Recent events (and viewing figures) both support SI having made the correct decision investing in bringing women's football into the game. But I'd be surprised if I saw it in time for next year.

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4 hours ago, Spurs08 said:

Football Manager should've been driving women's football forwards, not jumping on the bandwagon

So you're saying they just shouldn't bother?

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14 hours ago, forameuss said:

With the best will in the world, have you watched a game of women's football compared to men's?  There's a completely different approach to the two that would be better modelled with different engines.  You don't need to have a different one, but again it comes down to how accurately you want to portray the game.  You could just chuck some new leagues in and put something hard-coded in the core of the game to ensure they don't mix, but that would be a poor approximation.  Better to take the time and do it properly, which they seem to be doing.

It would also be a great opportunity for SI themselves.  It's probably very unlikely that they would normally get to carve out the time to have a proper rethink of the Match Engine given the cycle.  If they start out with the intention of solving this problem, they get more eyes on the engine and its processes.  It could well bring significant benefits across the engine as a whole.

The same could be said for youth football to be fair.

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2 hours ago, warlock said:

So you're saying they just shouldn't bother?

No, I'm saying they were wrong not to have bothered for so long.

 

It's been 31 years now since the first Women's World Cup. 23 years now since it came to America and took the nation by storm. 20 years now since Bend it like Beckham inspired a generation in Britain. 13 years now since the first stable, fully professional women's league in the US. 11 years now since the Women's Super League started. 8 years now since England got a crowd of 45k at Wembley. 7 years since women's football was added to FIFA. 4 years now since the WSL went fully professional.

At any point there, Football Manager as a franchise could have played it's part, and until now it hasn't. I'm sure it will be a popular addition to the game once it arrives, and I greatly look forward to it. But it could have been so much more; it could have helped to change the world of sport for the better, and it passed up the oppourtunity; that has happened without FM's involvment. And I personally think that is a great shame.

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I have to admit, I had my reservations when women's football was first announced in FM but the Euros were a great showcase of the women's game.

I'd definitely now be more inclined to manage a women's team on FM. I'm not sure how it would be implemented and if you could switch between the women's and men's games in the same save?

I think people, myself included, were too quick to compare men's and women's football. If you observe each game on their own merits then women's football is great. 

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1 hour ago, RHKC said:

I'd definitely now be more inclined to manage a women's team on FM. I'm not sure how it would be implemented and if you could switch between the women's and men's games in the same save?

You can, according to the article SI posted a while back. Check higher up. I posted the link to it.  :thup:

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13 hours ago, brookie1402 said:

The same could be said for youth football to be fair.

The difference between youth football and men's football is in no way as stark as it is between men's and women's football.  Particularly not at the sort of levels FM has to model.

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3 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

You can, according to the article SI posted a while back. Check higher up. I posted the link to it.  :thup:

 

Thanks for that. Hope you're well mate!

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10 hours ago, RHKC said:

I have to admit, I had my reservations when women's football was first announced in FM but the Euros were a great showcase of the women's game.

I'd definitely now be more inclined to manage a women's team on FM. I'm not sure how it would be implemented and if you could switch between the women's and men's games in the same save?

I think people, myself included, were too quick to compare men's and women's football. If you observe each game on their own merits then women's football is great. 

Fair play for revisiting your opinions, it has to be said. 

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I can't speak for SI but I'm fairly sure the announcement came long after anyone who had been eagle eyed with SI job roles had spotted they were putting the foundations in place with certain role descriptions. Of course there's room for debate but I would counterbalance the should've been done sooner argument with - could SI have actually afforded to do it sooner? It's still going to be a huge financial undertaking that probably won't see a profit on that particular investment for years. SI haven't yet changed the transfer market to a pack based system where we put our money into the slot machine endlessly in pursuit of players to help fund the game.

Some of the more emotionally fragile portions of the games current fan base may even state this as the reason they stop buying when it is implemented. 

There's a lot of ideal world lines that can be looked at in the past for sure and none of us can truly know the what ifs. But its likely that this kind of undertaking just historically wasn't really possible for SI either from a sheer number of people required or financial perspective. 

Thinking back to some of the landmarks mentioned by @Spurs08 I'm not going to dispute his point, but SI didn't exist when the first women's world cup took place. If you go back 20 years to 2002 for Bend it Like Beckham, well in 2006 when Sega acquired SI they had 34 staff. It does seem like based on the wikipedia page for SI and then their own site this year they're getting a bit more growth in numbers from 170ish in 2021 to over 250 now. I think a hollow shell of representation would've been an incredible disservice and somewhat offensive to include just for some positive PR if it had been done that way at an earlier stage (not to say it would have been) but there's always the counterbalance of resources (human and financially) vs what can be delivered. 

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Yeah, got to say looking at this and saying "well it should've been earlier" is more than a bit unfair, particularly when one of the points mentioned is EA putting in one of the most half-arsed implementations around.  SI have clearly been slowly building the resources to be able to do this justice, rather than just chase a quick win.  Just because the sport has hit new peaks now doesn't change any of that.

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There's a completely different approach to the two that would be better modelled with different engines.  You don't need to have a different one, but again it comes down to how accurately you want to portray the game.

 

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On 04/08/2022 at 17:17, forameuss said:

Yeah, got to say looking at this and saying "well it should've been earlier" is more than a bit unfair, particularly when one of the points mentioned is EA putting in one of the most half-arsed implementations around.  SI have clearly been slowly building the resources to be able to do this justice, rather than just chase a quick win.  Just because the sport has hit new peaks now doesn't change any of that.

I don’t think SI were in any position to start investing resources into Womens Football until 2-3 years ago.  A more measured approach will do the sport a lot more justice. I for one can’t wait to see what it’s going to look like.

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