FM16 - The community formation experiment

[Guest]

For me the Libero should sit in front of the DC's to work as a proactive ball winner, this is how I remember the role being used when I played in Germany back in 80s & 90s.

[summatsupeer]

I think all the sweeper roles come from an era when there was more man marking. The two DC's picking up usually two forwards leaving the Sweeper as the spare man to cover them or step up as needed. I'm not that knowledgeable on old developments of the game though so I could be wrong.

[Jambo98]

Jambo, Perrin's positioning without the ball looks spot on to me. I've always understood that a sweeper in a back three is a central defender who holds the line but focuses on 'sweeping up', intercepting balls over the top, making last man tackles etc rather than charging out to attempt tackles, marking forwards and doing other things that Centre Backs might do. I wouldn't want him sitting deep behind my line, can you imagine the mayhem that would be caused if he was playing everyone onside, especially with the way crosses can be in this ME.

As for the case of him charging out, it looks as if your DM or CM has been dragged out of position closing down the ball carrier. Whilst it isn't ideal for a sweeper to do this, if he hadn't the amount of space that player would have had in that position may well have led to a goal. If it is rarely that he is doing this I wouldn't worry.

Hmm interesting, not how id see a sweeper (or how the tactics screen displays it visual, or describes it). For me the big downside of playing a sweeper should be that he is at risk of playing people onside, and he shouldnt be 5 yards behind the other 2 DC, but should be noticeably deeper. Otherwise, he is not a sweeper, just a central DC in a 3 man defence?

For me the Libero should sit in front of the DC's to work as a proactive ball winner, this is how I remember the role being used when I played in Germany back in 80s & 90s.

Are you maybe mixing this up with a different role? Libero / Sweeper would never defend in front of the DCs. A sweeper, in the defensive sense is always to play behind the defense and provide the extra layer of security - to sweep up through balls and balls over the top. He should always be the spare man, there to make tackles when opponents get past the 2 main DC's.

Never heard of a sweeper playing infront of DCs whilst defending. If you look towards a Libero, then yes when you get possession he should step out and be in front of the defence to make passes etc.

[smp20]

I have just completed the season, and I've actually really enjoyed it so I'm keen to continue with this save. Never thought that would happen!

I will do an update over the next day or so, is there anything in particular that would be interesting to feature? Just a reminder that I had the 4-1-2-3 Narrow.

[Guest]

Are you maybe mixing this up with a different role? Libero / Sweeper would never defend in front of the DCs. A sweeper, in the defensive sense is always to play behind the defense and provide the extra layer of security - to sweep up through balls and balls over the top. He should always be the spare man, there to make tackles when opponents get past the 2 main DC's.

Never heard of a sweeper playing infront of DCs whilst defending. If you look towards a Libero, then yes when you get possession he should step out and be in front of the defence to make passes etc.

When I was a lad the player was called a vorstopper, basically they sat centrally in front of the D-line to sweep ahead of them & then bring the ball out into midfield while the sweeper would sit behind the D-line.

[Guest]

I'm still trying to get as close to my 8-1 loss against PSG & in doing so have come across an odd outcome, setting OI's to never close down or tightly mark attacking players has so far reduced the amount of chances they are creating to the point where we have won the last 3 repeats of the same match.

The ref in the match is also very lenient, in one game we conceded 30 fouls & he only booked a handful of players, that sending off is such a freak event that I doubt I'll ever see it replicated in this match.

[cregan]

Formation: 3-4-1-2

My initial plans took a bit of a hammering when Maribor smashed us 4-1 (which could've been 8 or 9 easily) in our opening friendly. I'd used Perrin as a central stopper, intending to have him function a little Libero-ish since he had the PPMs, with Tabanou a more defensive WM versus Hamouma's W-A on the other flank, a BWM-S/DLP-D combo in midfield, with Beric as a DF-D to harry defenders and Roux a CF-S to allow Corgnet to run through from AM. The result was Perrin constantly missing defensive headers because I'd missed how much of a shortarse he is, Tabanou doing nothing, Roux and Corgnet getting under each other's feet, and the whole system being an ugly mess.

After a fairly hideous pre-season, and a scraped 2-1 aggregate win over Cherno more in the Europa qualifiers, this is what I've got instead:

Standard/Fluid, with: Play out of defence, Close down more, Use tighter marking, Much higher D-line, Prevent short GK distribution.

PIs: GK to play it quickly to playmaker, front two to close down more.

Your basic high pressing game, effectively.

I've also got a deeper, Counter/Fluid variant when things turn tough, which drops the W-A to W-S and AM-A to AM-S, and replaces all the TIs with Pass shorter and Play out of defence. This seems to be solid, so far, but unspectacular.

Things I've noted:

- When Selnaes plays at DLP, his Drops Deeper PPM means that he slots back to make a back four whenever the keeper has the ball, and the system tends to evolve from a 4-3-1-2 to a 4-3-3 to a 3-1-3-3 to a 3-3-4 as attacks develop. However, since the two wider DCs can't (and probably shouldn't) be given instructions to make them fill a fullback role if the chance arises, all this means is that Selnaes becomes too far from the midfield line and relies on longer passing than is ideal. I've used Cohade there for the two Europa games and I'm wondering if I bring Selnaes back if I should switch to DLP-S to limit his back-peddaling, and maybe turn his central partner into a CM-D to compensate.

- If I have Corgnet set as AM-S, he's forever occupying the same space as whoever's at CM-S. Since he doesn't have any PPMs that would make him drop back so much, I'm not sure why he does this. With an Attack duty he can sometimes drift into the front to make a flat 3-4-3, but at least he's not normally treading on someone else's toes to do it.

- WM-S in particular and DW-S don't seem to add much by way of defensive solidity down the flanks; Tabanou and Assou-Ekotto both seem to be more willing to track wide players back as straight wingers in this system. Even Hamouma patrols the right flank reasonably well. It must be some combination of shape, players, and mentality, but I can't figure out what.

- Beric can't shoot for toffee. I can see Maupay getting a fair amount of game time.

- Roux, though, can be excellent as a wandering CF. He wasn't his best against the Bulgarians but he's looked really good in that role otherwise.

- The mix of slow DCs and mostly-fullbacks with attacking PPMs makes me wince whenever we're under threat. Sall gets away with it to some extent because of his aerial power, but KT-C has been a disaster whenever I've played him and I'm probably going to sell him if I can. I've got Clerc retraining as DC, managed to get Mammana on loan, and bought a youngster, Pavard, from Lille, all to provide speedier, smarter central cover.

- We're particularly vulnerable to teams playing a classic 4-1-2-2-1/4-3-3 wide DM/whatever you want to call it. The two attacking wide players end up one-on-one with our wide DCs, the striker's on Perrin, and with no DM or any other spare man for cover we're vulnerable to any kind of mistake or poor piece of positioning.

- I'm not sure the team's quite bright enough, but I've switched a couple of times to Very Fluid just to bunch everyone together more when we need to keep the ball better. It's worked OK, but the league season's only just about to get underway.

Early days, and I've still got doubts over whether a vanilla CM-S is the way to go, and about the exact shape of the front pairing, but hopefully things will pick up.

[Fraser]

Apologies if the post looks a bit ropey, it's been a while since I posted with images etc. I haven't got too far but here are my first thoughts:

Formation: 4-4-1-1 2DM

I started by trying to get a handle on the squad. At the most basic level I needed to figure out how I was going to defend, what my transitioning options were and where my goal threat will come from.

Defending: Pretty average options really, not happy with the centre back situation. Perrin is solid enough but Sall and Pogba only really offer back up quality. A new DC is needed, so after a bit of scouting I have brought in Emanuel Mammana on loan from River Plate. That does leave me with 2 centre backs who are 5ft 11. They’re not going to be dominating in the air, so to try to prevent target men getting joy I have pushed the Defensive Line as High as it will go, which also means I’m going with a Sweeper Keeper role for Ruffier. Full backs are just left on automatic. Clerc and Assou-Ekotto the preferred pair. The 2 DM system should give me strength in numbers at the back, so the quality is a bit less of an issue.

Transitioning: The full backs will offer support and I opted to start with my 2 most creative defensive midfielders. Cohade is not a natural there but is the best all-rounder and Selnaes has preferred moves for a Xabi Alonso style playmaker (Selnaes will play DLP D, but the role changes to DM D if it's not him playing there) To ensure the ball goes in to them I have selected Play Out of Defense. My wide players will carry the ball. Tabanou has no preferred moves but is quick, good at dribbling and crossing and hard working. Hamouma is a player I like the look of. He likes to run with the ball, is quick and a good dribbler. Both players are playing on their natural side, which offers width and a chance of 1 vs 1 situations against opponents, as I don’t want them coming in to the middle. As they are my outlets and I want my DM’s to look to play to them, I have set Exploit the Right Flank and Exploit the Left Flank. I’ve also chosen Run at Defence, to try to create those 1 v 1 situations.

Scoring: The centre forward situation is really basic. Roux is my best striker and Complete Forward Attack is his best role, so that’s how he’ll start. I’m a little concerned about his Moves Into Channels PPM but it will help if I want 1 striker to occupy 2 defenders. Corgnet is selected for the Attacking Midfield role, which is decided more by ruling other roles out. We’re not a high quality team with a lot of flair, so I don’t want a Trequartista or an Enganche there. I have a playmaker in DM so I don’t want another at AMC and I don’t want to use a Second Striker because he’ll move into the same areas as Roux. I do need him to get up alongside though, so have selected AM A, with the only player instruction being to shoot less often, as Corgnet has the dreaded “Shoots from Distance”.

For the team I figure I will start with Standard mentality and see what happens, but with a Structured team shape to give me a bit more organisation in defence and because I'm backing my front 4 in their man for man battles.

[herne79]

About time I did an update with my (ugh, whisper it) 5-4-1.

For me, the obvious play was to head for a straight up counter attacking system, which in part is what I've done. However, I also wanted to explore other options to see what I could come up with.

To me, the real issue with this formation is getting enough people forward in attack. 5 players in the back line doesn't leave much wiggle room, and only 2 players in central midfield would leave a lack of defensive cover if I start asking too much of them. This is what I came up with:

Essentially, what I am asking my two "wingers" (wide midfielders) to do is move centrally in attack from their starting wide positions. At the same time, I'm looking for both fullbacks to get forward and provide width, whilst still leaving my 3 central defenders holding the fort at the back. The RPM will also support the attack, giving me up to 6 attacking players with (hopefully) good coverage across all areas of the pitch.

However, what I can't do is get the ball forward too quickly - I have a lone striker without any close support, at least at the start of an attacking phase. So, whilst I have given my wide players attack duties, I'll temper that somewhat by my tactical settings:

Both WMs have PIs to sit narrower and cut inside.

Overall, this is the kind of shape I am seeing:

This screenshot also shows the type of shots I am seeing - not that many, but mostly good quality chances from inside the box.

It's kind of difficult to show this type of movement in a still shot, however I think the following gives a decent idea: My RPM (Selnaes) is on the ball. Soderlund (my DLF) has dropped deep, and my two WMs (Tabanou and Hamouma) have tucked inside nicely, with both full backs (Malcuit and Theophile) bombing along giving wide support.

This is giving me the 6 attackers I mentioned, whilst still leaving my 3 central defenders to take care of any counter attack.

I don't play with this tactic all the time, and switch to my counter system on occasion, especially against the big teams (I drew Spurs and Lazio in my Europa League group).

It's going well - 2nd in the league in January behind (predictably) PSG, and only lost one league match so far (also, predictably, against PSG).

Do I like the formation? No, it's a hateful thing that makes me play negatively, but overall it's quite enjoyable as it's made me think outside the box and get creative with how to set things up. And that's what this "experiment" is all about .

[smp20]

Nice options there herne79 and a great first half of the season grabbing 44 points from 19 games!

I will be doing an update this evening with an overview of the season from a tactical / stats analysis perspective as well as analyzing the system when it works well, and also not quite so well.

[smp20]

Fraser - the shape that you have there is actually one of my favourites, only tweak I make is playing STL and AMCR (of course you are not allowed to do this )

[Jambo98]

Some brilliant updates in this thread and some real creative thinking with the tactics. I really enjoy seeing people try different ways to make it work, and i think it really adds something to be playing as a team like Saint Etienne - it adds another flavour. You have to work round the limitations of the players, and try and look to pick key men and find a way to use your allocated formation to still get the best of key players. Very different to creating something when playing with a team of super stars

Sadly i am not one of those with a great update / story thus far! I am struggling hugely with my setup. There are definite issues in my mind with the way a sweeper operates in the ME, which is annoying but not the cause of the issue really. At worst he mostly performs just like its a flat DC x 3 which should still be able to work just fine. There is also a now 3 yr old issue with positions at goal kicks where you have a back 3 and wingbacks (the wing back and outer DC stand on top of each other at defensive goal kicks - looks utterly daft) but again, not the cause of my issues!

In my initial go at this, i made the wrong signings for one thing. Another DM was totally needless, and getting a striker who will be amazing in 2 years, when doing a 1 year save...... I also very quickly got annoyed with my system and got lost in a mire of constant tweaks and even wholesale direction changes. In the end, i quit the save only some 10 games into the season. I had totally gotten lost and well, was fed up Same happened to me last year with a 3 at the back setup funnily enough.

So i have unashamedly started again from scratch with a new save. I have firstly made better signings (Got Correa on loan this time, added Rhodolfo again and a natural Sweeper in Julio Cesar Dominguez).

My aim is to create a system which takes advantage of the natural strengths of this formation. For me the 2 obvious strengths are:

- Flying wingbacks who can cause havoc out wide, as they are the lone wide men and should have space to run intoo

- A 3 man attack which gives us lots of bodies in the box and combination options.

The obvious weaknesses which i need to counter / accept are:

- No DM, which combined with flying wingbacks can be a danger. To counter this i will want to use both my MC as defensive players

- The danger of a disconnect between midfield and attack if both MCs are defend duty, and the AMC is on attack duty. This is one i need to watch.

So i want to produce something attacking which gets the ball wide often, and into the 3 strikers often......... Now i need to figure out how to translate that, which is where FM16 is a real problem for me. The instructions and roles / duties never seem to do what i think they should!

Off to give it a try now, see if i can work out an approach to meet my aims.

[herne79]

@Jambo

I'm in a similar position with my 541. ok I'm not using a sweeper, but I've set my central centre back to kind of act like one - cover duty + less closing down. Without that, he just gets sucked into midfield chasing balls leaving a stonking great gap behind that the other 2 CDs don't really cover.

That then becomes an issue for my 2 midfielders to sort the gap where a DM would be. I chose Standard mentality + slightly higher def line and a CM(D) in midfield - not perfect but not bad either.

The benefit of this is it leaves me free to get my fullbacks bombing forwards whilst leaving 3 at the back to cover any counters.

As far as using a Libero goes, there have been improvements made in FM16 to how this role works, but I think it does require a certain type of player and the right formation to get right. Perrin might be ok for the role, but I'm not sure your particular formation will help. I'd stick to the Sweeper role.

[Jambo98]

@Jambo

I'm in a similar position with my 541. ok I'm not using a sweeper, but I've set my central centre back to kind of act like one - cover duty + less closing down. Without that, he just gets sucked into midfield chasing balls leaving a stonking great gap behind that the other 2 CDs don't really cover.

That then becomes an issue for my 2 midfielders to sort the gap where a DM would be. I chose Standard mentality + slightly higher def line and a CM(D) in midfield - not perfect but not bad either.

The benefit of this is it leaves me free to get my fullbacks bombing forwards whilst leaving 3 at the back to cover any counters.

As far as using a Libero goes, there have been improvements made in FM16 to how this role works, but I think it does require a certain type of player and the right formation to get right. Perrin might be ok for the role, but I'm not sure your particular formation will help. I'd stick to the Sweeper role.

Thank herne, i guess the thing i struggle with, is that i do somewhat understand the behaviour you describe from a standard DC where there is no obvious midfield "shield".......but how can it happen with a sweeper? Even the in game description tell you he will stay behind the D-line, which in my experience, neither the SW or L actually do. I think its something that SI need to look at, but i doubt they will given how rarely the role / position is used (there will be a gimmick higher up the priority list )

I intended to try and close the gap using "standard" and "Very fluid". To counter act the big increase in creative freedom, i added TI "Be more disciplined" and "Stick to positions".

What i am doing now is playing a friendly on the full 90mins, using 2d view, and taking constant notes of how things pan out and what i see. I have already made a couple of key tweaks. I also noticed that despite intending / trying to set the fluidity to very fluid, it is set at "flexible". What is most annoying, is that i really like the way the first 45mins has played out using that setting, so no reluctant to go to my preferred "Very fluid" option! Sods Law..........

The Libero debate is probably for another place (i am using Sweeper now), but i would be quite surprised that this is not a good formation for one? I agree that you need a certain type of player, but in terms of formation, you would want something without a DM (to allow space for the Libero to move into) and with width high up the pitch (to stretch and create space for the Libero, and give him a passing option when he pings direct balls). To be fair, my issue with how the Libero behaves is mainly around how it defends, not how it attacks. Same issue as sweeper, he spends more time in front of the other DCs when we defend than behind it.

In the 45mins i have watched on full highlights, by far and away my biggest issue is the defending behavior of the wingbacks. They tuck in way to narrow when there is absolutely no need to. I originally wondered if this is because i have "Play Narrower" selected, which i thought was an offensive instuction. I removed it and still the same glaring issue. Both team and players have no pressing instructions active at all. Also no Tight marking etc. Only PI for the WB are around passing length.

Below are 2 examples of where they end up as we defend, and the space it leaves where they should be.

[herne79]

Sorry, brain freeze - I thought you had 3 MCs.

And you're right, Play Narrower is an offensive TI.

No idea why your WBs are so far out of position in those 2 pictures, would be interesting to see the few seconds of what happened before they ended up there - maybe a clue in that?

[Jambo98]

Not the same instance as the 2 stills, but here is a short gif - watch the movement / behavior of Tabanou as this short clip develop - Look at how he comes in and stands on top of the left sided DC, despite there being only one man in that area (covered by up to 3 of my players already). this leaves "his man" (number 24 in red) in miles of space.

The somewhat interesting thing over the 80+mins of this game so far, is that at times the mega narrow can work to our advantage. It does force most of the opposing attacks down the flanks, which is in theory less dangerous, but it gives lots of time to cross, and knowing how effective crossing is in FM16, that makes me nervous......

[herne79]

Yeh does look odd. I guess you could argue he's coming in that far to provide support to the DCL who is one on one with the only immediate box threat, but that still leaves two unmarked players running up the wing behind him.

I very rarely play with players in the WB position, so can't say if that's typical behaviour or not - I'll have a look at my 541 and see if my fullbacks are the same (haven't noticed anything so far but I'll look again). At least I have 2 wingers ahead of my fullbacks to help out.

[Jambo98]

Yeah i cant see any real justification for him moving in like that. There are several other defenders near the DCL who can help him.

Be interested to see if you find anything similar. I strongly suspect not. I have a small suspicion that it might be a bug relating to the sweeper. If we had a flat back 4, i could almost understand the "tucking in" behaviour of a full back to help out a DC. A couple of years ago (FM14) i found a bug where at certain times, other defenders almost seemed to "forget" that the sweeper existed, and play as if he wasnt there. It actually feels the same with this.

Here is another good example, which has just cost me a goal. This time, there is not even an attacker he could be helping out against.

[s1111]

I've found the same thing using three centre backs with wing backs in my saves. The wing backs just defend in the same positions as if they would with two centre backs, they don't make any adjustment. The defensive width of a back five ends up being the same as a four.

[Jambo98]

I've found the same thing using three centre backs with wing backs in my saves. The wing backs just defend in the same positions as if they would with two centre backs, they don't make any adjustment. The defensive width of a back five ends up being the same as a four.

That is disapointing to read I did notice from a quick look through various forum threads, that the vast majority of good / working / successful back 3 systems employ players in the ML / MR and not wingbacks. Probably makes sense. If they are not being of any use defensively as wing backs, might as well get the extra offensive thrust from the winger slot, and infact might get better defending as they will defend like back tracking midfielders not fullbacks.

Ah well, not an option open to me here. The only thing i can think of is to use specific man marking on opposing wingers, but all it takes is the AI to do a "switch" player / formation and it knackers it. Its also not really what that feature is designed for. I might give it a go see if it at least forces them to defend properly.

Thanks for the input

[Guest]

If the opposition wingers switch flanks the marking assignments change so your wingback stick to the man on their side.

[Jambo98]

If the opposition wingers switch flanks the marking assignments change so your wingback stick to the man on their side.

Ah cheers did not know that, that is an improvement.

That said, i tried it for the second leg of the early Europa game. It was predictable in terms of how it worked. It certainly fixed the width / shape, but all it meant was that they stuck right to the winger (as they should with that instruction). What that does, is gives the winger a real easy advantage. Unless your a very good marker, and lets be honest, the Saint Etienne lads are not, then its easy for the winger to get a head start on you and the wingback becomes essentially useless in defensive terms. The specific man marking also renders the wingback no use in any other defensive phase, he will never leave his man to deal with other dangers really. Again, thats no slight on the "specific man mark" instruction, it does what it says.

However, for me that is not going to be a workable solution. Not sure what else i can do other than just live with it and concede the goals. I have not tried WB instead of CWB, but i cant see why it should make a difference?

[Wellmade]

End of preseason report.

Well I got through preseason and through the 3rd round qualifier..... somehow...

Results:

The 5-0 win looks quite impressive as do the stats.

Then you look at their squad and they are all greyed out.

The 2-0 win against Reus was mainly the reserves and U19's with Soderlund up front (in between Euro Game, thought I'd give the rest of them a break) We only had 4 shots, to their 14, so a complete reversal from the above game.

Latest instructions:

Going to change to cross early and see if that helps with goals.

[cregan]

Formation: 3-4-1-2

Short of a miracle, I think I'm not long for the job.

We picked up 4 points out of the first 18 and lost our first Europa group game, away to CSKA Moscow (oddly, the system seems to work much better in Europe than Ligue 1). We were really, really struggling against any side playing with AM wide men (in particular, though even a 4-4-2 with its doubling up down the flanks poses horrible problems) - though thankfully our ML/R defend better than Jambo's wingbacks. I switched to a tweaked version of my countering backup system to try, at the very least, to tighten up at the back:

Mentality/Shape: Counter/Flexible (as much as I'm inclined to play Fluid, I figured this would help keep the DCs in place)

TIs: Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defence, Play Narrower, Drop Deeper (Perrin and Sall, playing at the time, are both so slow), Low Crosses

GK: Roll It Out, Distribute Quickly

AMC: Move Into Channels

First results were good and won three in a row, including a 4-0 thrashing of Tours. Then we hit a Caen side playing a counter 4-1-2-2-1 and it all came falling down. Andy Delort scored all five against us in a 5-0 away thumping (I switched back to a more adventurous tactic when we went 3-0 down; it didn’t work and I imagine Perrin will be seeing him in his nightmares for weeks to come) in which Roux did his achilles and will be out for 5 months (which is why Maupay’s in the pic). Just the last in a run of injuries: Hamouma, who’s been excellent, was already out for two months, Soderlund’s only just coming back having been injured since the start of pre-season, and we’re down to one spare DC with Pavard and Pogba out. Followed on from Caen by promptly getting beaten 2-1 at home by Gazelec Ajaccio, leaving us 15th after ten games. Squad’s getting antsy - I've already had one meeting about my poor leadership - and it won’t be long before the board does too, I reckon.

We’re joint second highest scorers in the league, have the second-best rated player in Tabanou, and the joint second worst defence. And frankly I’m stumped.

[simji13]

This is the first time i have actually done any writing about tactical analysis, so i was given the default formation of 523 narrow. Here is a quick post just jot a few thoughts down, its more of a piece for me to analysis and see how i want to go with the tactic and also give me some practice at trying to type what I'm thinking.

This is what it looks like in the tactics view.

I've pointed out some various obvious flaws in this system. Without looking at the squad available you can see that the four key positions for this tactic to work will be the two fullbacks, MCL and MCR.

Stamina is going to be key for these players as they are going to cover a lot of ground in a game and will probably be the first to be subbed. The fullbacks don't have any screen from the midfield in front of them so they are going to have to deal with a few 2 v 1 situations against some formations. Also they are the ones that have to get forward and support the attacks to give us some width.

MCR MCL - These two are going to be out numbered in most formations against unless they come up against a middle 2 like in a 442. These two are going to need to able to win balls and also be able to do a lot of ball retention.

Formation does look very defensive and gaps between the lines could vary in size depending on roles given and style of football wanting to play. In this case if we then move forward and look at the strikers, we know that these might be alienated for large parts of the game, so they are the ones that are going to have to be the creative and able to move around dragging defenders away from the positions for the others to exploit. Also able to hold up the ball when put numbered to allow the rest of the team to move forward in support.

Before i think about what i would like to do further with the tactic i think its best to see how it plays out with no tweaks no instructions against the reserves, i know 2 days later i have a friendly against PAOK but still like to give it a go against a less quality opposition.

[louissiscool]

is there any spaces left?

[Jambo98]

is there any spaces left?

There is exactly one formation left...... (although i think a number who asked for a formation have yet to post since that point).

louissiscool - 5212 WB

[Pirlo's Beard]

No spaces left? I've been aching to attempt a go with the 4-4-2 sweeper.

EDIT: Nevermind, see things are full. I'll read with interest!

[Der General]

@Jambo98: Something like this. Really sorry that wingbacks behave this way, since back 3 (5) systems are quite interesting.

[Craigus89]

@Jambo98 What role are your WB's playing with, Support? Do they have any PI's? Not sure if these instructions are available for the WB's but have you experimented with "close down much less" and/or "Sit Wider"?

It is definitely not the correct behavior, just wondering if a role change might help. That goal you conceded looks infuriating and very similar to a good % of the goals I concede!

[simji13]

So i asked the assistant to do a quick pick of the team, as i wasn't really bothered who was playing i did wanted to see the system play out with no instructions and go from there.

First 45 minutes.

I like how the team defends on the average positions a strong back 7 if you like, but from the image you can see the gap between the forward and rest of the team are a little bit to far for my liking, it means a lot of long balls will pinged hoping for the target without much support to win the second balls if needed.

The fullbacks get forward nicely and once they lose the ball they sprint back into defence making it a line of 5.

So at half time i made a switch from flexible to fluid.

I left it until 70th minute before making any changes, only made changes to the fullbacks, midfield duo and central striker.

With the changes brought a little more attacking play, the fullbacks in Tabanou and Malcuit seemed to be more attacking that Assou-Ekotto and Clerc and the system looked a little more dangerous but even so the gap between the midfield and strikers are still the same so thats something to concentrate on going into the next friendlies.

We won 3-0 in the end but it could have been a little more if the finishing was slightly better.

[Jambo98]

@Jambo98: Something like this. Really sorry that wingbacks behave this way, since back 3 (5) systems are quite interesting.

Yes that is similar Der General. Sadly i see the response you got when raising it is one i have come to expect. It couldnt possibly be the ME, it must be something we are doing wrong.......

I am minded to officially raise this in the bugs forum. Clearly no way it can be fixed in FM16, but at least perhaps it can be looked at for FM17. Unless, of course, its my tactic that forces one player to come and stand on top of another........

@Jambo98 What role are your WB's playing with, Support? Do they have any PI's? Not sure if these instructions are available for the WB's but have you experimented with "close down much less" and/or "Sit Wider"?

It is definitely not the correct behavior, just wondering if a role change might help. That goal you conceded looks infuriating and very similar to a good % of the goals I concede!

Both are CWB (a) - The duty should not impact the defensive situations that i am highlighting though. If anything, i expect the duty to see them caught out of position up field now and then, which i can live with. The role has "stay wider" set as default, although that is again an attacking / in possession instruction not a defensive one. I have not added "Much less" on closing down. That would be pretty counter intuitive, because the issue is they end up way to far away from the men in their area, but this is FM and it is not always the intuitive solution which works! i might take a look, although in general i dont want these guys closing down less in other phases of play

I might also try WB (a) just to see. Again, i see no logical way that this behavior could be changed by moving between CWB and WB........but one never knows.

Meanwhile i am plagued by my usual issue of inconsistent performances. Looks good one week, next week we lost 1 v 0 at home to Bastia and look awful. Not helped by Correa being out for 3 months, and just now Ruffier out for 4 weeks......oh dear

[summatsupeer]

I'll be honest, i'm struggling to motivate myself with my formation (31312 DM), its just so hard to get it to defend solidly I have to keep stopping myself from changing there positions! My plan to press inside-out against the touchline just isn't working with so much space, i'm thinking I need to push higher up and press sooner to get the 2 ST more involved defensively. I don't think dropping mentality would help, it might get them to come deeper but with so much space on the wings I think its asking for trouble.

Does make some nice forward play though so might put a few more hours in at the weekend.

[herne79]

Yes that is similar Der General. Sadly i see the response you got when raising it is one i have come to expect. It couldnt possibly be the ME, it must be something we are doing wrong.......

I am minded to officially raise this in the bugs forum. Clearly no way it can be fixed in FM16, but at least perhaps it can be looked at for FM17. Unless, of course, its my tactic that forces one player to come and stand on top of another........

No need to have a little dig.

If you've exhausted all options, and feel that strongly, I'd raise it in the bugs forum with all necessary detail. In my 541 I've rechecked and haven't noticed any similar behaviour, but then I'm using players in the FB position, not the WB that you are.

[Jambo98]

Fair enough. Der General got a patronising answer / dig to his original question, far from me to do the same back

I will post over in the bugs forum, don't think it matters whether i feel strongly or not. If its a bug its a bug and i will raise it - Thanks for your help and guidance on it.

Will leave it at that and let the thread return to the great stuff of people playing around with these new shapes etc. Loving all the updates and thought processes. Hopefully rashidi shall return with a second episode on youtube as well

[Phill75]

Hi.

How can I join in the challeneg?

[Erneliad]

There is exactly one formation left...... (although i think a number who asked for a formation have yet to post since that point).

louissiscool - 5212 WB

Feel I should probably post a quick reply to this. I work full time in quite a draining job so haven't had much time over the last few days to play/post an update. However, I have taken some time off this afternoon so hope to put something together for my precarious 4-4-2 Sweeper

[Rashidi]

I think with more people being interested perhaps the black box can do another round. Shouldn't matter if more than one person has the same system.

[poobington]

Yeah i cant see any real justification for him moving in like that. There are several other defenders near the DCL who can help him.

Be interested to see if you find anything similar. I strongly suspect not. I have a small suspicion that it might be a bug relating to the sweeper. If we had a flat back 4, i could almost understand the "tucking in" behaviour of a full back to help out a DC. A couple of years ago (FM14) i found a bug where at certain times, other defenders almost seemed to "forget" that the sweeper existed, and play as if he wasnt there. It actually feels the same with this.

Here is another good example, which has just cost me a goal. This time, there is not even an attacker he could be helping out against.

Have you tried instructing them to stay wider?

[Jambo98]

Have you tried instructing them to stay wider?

Covered above fella, but 2 things:

1) CWB has "stay wider" active as a default

2) "Stay wider" is an attacking instruction, not a defending one

[Jambo98]

I think with more people being interested perhaps the black box can do another round. Shouldn't matter if more than one person has the same system.

Yup we said that last year but never had the issue as not so many were interested. I will do a quick reccy tonight and make sure i have it all right, then allocate fresh formations to the 2 (i think) additional people showing interest. I might also give up my formation to someone else at this point

[the_gaffa]

Time for my first update. Not had as much time as I would like to play unfortunately and I've had to do most of these matches on my work commute so far!

Anyway, here's what my 424 DM Wide looks like at the moment....

screenshot tool

Now I know some of these roles and duty combinations might raise eyebrow or two amongst the tactical gurus out there but in this early part of the season, it seems to be performing pretty well. My thinking was that I wanted create a system which was solid at the back and didn't over complicate things. A back four and covering mid work as a defensive unit. Support comes from DMCs spraying direct balls to my wingers who can then get in decent crossing positions. I'm currently experimenting with two attacking duties upfront as I want to stretch the opposition as much as possible.

Here are my results so far...

Decent but nothing spectacular. Here's my league standings....

photo uploading

Final thoughts - Pretty satisfied so far but it's still early doors and aside from Napoli, I haven't really had a massive test yet. I'll post another update when I get to the halfway point.

P.S. Hamouma is a beast on the right wing!

[rvd313]

Quick update while I have the chance:

Halfway through pre-season I made a few changes, which resulted in the following configuration:

1. We went from a Fluid shape to a Structured one. I felt attacks tended to break down too easily with a Fluid shape as the players tended to bunch together during attacks.

2. The two WB's became FB's. I felt we were too exposed down the flanks with two WB's.

3. The DLF became a F9. I mainly did this because it suited the players at my disposal. A F9 also has the 'move into channels' instruction, which means both my strikers pull wide at times, providing much needed width.

4. The BPD's are gone. There were only really a couple of players capable of performing this role to any competent degree.

5. The AP became an AM. The AP was drifting too deep and leaving the front two isolated.

6. One of the CM's became a BBM. With two CM's on support, the midfield was very static. With a BBM we have better movement in midfield and better support for the forward players.

Results so far:

As you can see results picked up in pre-season after I made the changes. Only played two league matches so far, but things look promising.

[kkfootball]

Here's my initial tactic: https://gyazo.com/752bd1acdf675aa2d1e2c3f2cd1c1c06

I really feel like the players I have fit the tactic.

I love using advanced wing backs and this system is pretty similar to the system my club plays in real life.

My goal for the end of the season is to finish among the teams: Lyon, Marseille, and Lille.

Since there is a limitation on how many signings I can make per season I need to focus on youth development more than I usually do.

I still need to look at the finances but I plan on keeping things tight and will give you periodic updates throughout the season.

[TheBambino]

I would really like to give this a go @Jambo98

[heron]

If more players are allowed on this challenge, I'm also interested. Will be playing FMT though, so might not fullfill all requirements...

[Jambo98]

Ok so starting to allocate second set of formations, since the first ones are all gone. As rashidi mentioned, its not a huge issue if 2 people end up with the same formation. So i have cleared down the black box, created a new copy and all formations are available.

No spaces left? I've been aching to attempt a go with the 4-4-2 sweeper.

EDIT: Nevermind' date=' see things are full. I'll read with interest![/quote']

Well, the idea is to draw a random formation.......but if you really want to do 442 Sweeper then i say just go for it. However i did a black box draw for you and got :

Pirlo's Beard - 3421

Hi.

How can I join in the challeneg?

Phil75 - 442 Diamond Narrow

I would really like to give this a go @Jambo98

The Bambino - 5212 Sweeper WB (sorry!)

If more players are allowed on this challenge, I'm also interested. Will be playing FMT though, so might not fullfill all requirements...

FMT does change the dynamic quite considerable, due to the lack of any penalty around tactical familiarity..........that said its just a bit of fun, no points or ranking, if you really are 100% stuck with Touch only then i guess go for it.

heron - 4132 DM Narrow

[heron]

FMT does change the dynamic quite considerable, due to the lack of any penalty around tactical familiarity..........that said its just a bit of fun, no points or ranking, if you really are 100% stuck with Touch only then i guess go for it.

heron - 4132 DM Narrow

It's more a question of time available. But for this challenge, I'll start up the full mode for the first time in FM16. Might take a bit longer to post updates, though!

[alinp]

Hi Jambo98

stick me down for one of batch 2.

[sgevolker]

4321 narrow

First, I want to apologize for my english, because I'm not a natural speaker. I keep this as a footballmanager + english lesson

The main problems I expect with the 4321 narrow is to be frail down the flanks and to get a problem with AM or Playmakers while I'm without a DM.

The 4321 is for me a natural attacking formation and I don't wan't to leave to much space for the opposition for counters. So I decide to play a counter based system,

with higher tempo. This is my tactic:

With a 3 man midfield, I decide to play with a “sitter”, a “runner” and a “attacker”. For a counter tactic I like to have pass into space, higher tempo and slower passing.

My midfielders are building a nice rectangle.

I want them to act as an unit in defense and offense. So I decide to use a fluid team shape.

That's what it looks like in offense:

8 Players in the opposite half. I like that very much.

Thats what it looks like in defense:

8 Players defend. After that the following happened:

[video=youtube_share;N8_KHi3rqL4]

Examples from a match:

First half against Trabzonspor in the Euroleague:

Shots and average position:

Interceptions:

Second half against Trabzonspor:

Shots and average position:

Interceptions:

I like the high numbers of interceptions.

Overall match statistic:

5 CCC. Not bad.

After 5 League matches we won all, we qualify for the Euroleague Group Stage and won the first match too. The TV Company seems to like us and our playing style

A good start in the season

Thank's for reading.