SI Sports Centre - The Discussion

[Miniesta]

The PKM file I downloaded from the link on the analysis thread is a completely different game. Or is it a mistake on my part?

[Cleon]

The PKM file I downloaded from the link on the analysis thread is a completely different game. Or is it a mistake on my part?

Same teams different result? If so you're playing on an older patch. If you mean totally different teams then you've loaded the wrong game.

I've not had chance to update this thread yet been a very hectic week, hopefully should have something soon though.

[Miniesta]

Same teams different result? If so you're playing on an older patch. If you mean totally different teams then you've loaded the wrong game.

I've not had chance to update this thread yet been a very hectic week, hopefully should have something soon though.

Same teams, different result, 3-0 in the one I've got.

I guessed it was probably my fault. I play offline and the fixing of obscure issues such as the Turkmenistan offside rule didn't reallly affect my saved game so I didn't bother with the last patch.

I may have downloaded a different game but my amateur attempt at analysis still concluded that Campos bossed the left flank all game long and Cruz Azul were rather insistent on getting caught on the counter.

Edit:

Have now applied latest patch and all is as it should be.

[Ackter]

Which version of the game are​ you using?

[Miniesta]

Which version of the game are​ you using?

The latest one now. Was 14.2 something. As I said, all is now fine.

[JD nawrat]

I love the idea of this thread. I haven't read anything yet (I've skimmed here and there) and it seems worthwhile to invest time into reading it because it's generating a long, healthy discussion it seems.

I'll work through the thread and contribute myself over the weekend (maybe tomorrow if I find time to do it all).

[Cleon]

I'll be breaking the updates down even further and showing you how to spot what d-line (etc) someone is using and then show you different ones from an ingame scenario so you can actually see the difference. Sorry this is taking longer than I wanted to update but its a lot to write up and to fit into looking after the kids. I will definitely have something for you all this weekend though.

[Stonebiter]

good things need time like we say.

[Cleon]

I've updated the thread and made a start on the team instructions, I started with something simple to easy everyone into finding out what the instructions used were so I started with the defensive lines. I'll be working on the settings the sides started with first as we'll look at the changes actually made in the game in a further update.

[Jimbokav1971]

Wey hey! I got something right!

[peleJunior]

Defenders look like stopper cover combination, stopper on the left side and cover the right(looking at that screenshot that shows them from behind, or as a goalie might see). Wingbacks or Fullbacks on Attack and support? I'm going to go for Wingbacks they look more aggressive than fullbacks, attack on the left side and support on the right? I was thinking that a left sided stopper might compliment a left sided attacking wingback but if those interceptions are missed the left wing is ripe for picking.

That then got me wondering if a stopper would work better if the left sided wingback was more conservative, then the stopper has cover from his central partner and maybe a tucking in fullback? Maybe it all depends on how aggressive you want to be, I prefer the balance of option two.

[Cleon]

Defenders look like stopper cover combination, stopper on the left side and cover the right(looking at that screenshot that shows them from behind, or as a goalie might see). Wingbacks or Fullbacks on Attack and support? I'm going to go for Wingbacks they look more aggressive than fullbacks, attack on the left side and support on the right? I was thinking that a left sided stopper might compliment a left sided attacking wingback but if those interceptions are missed the left wing is ripe for picking.

That then got me wondering if a stopper would work better if the left sided wingback was more conservative, then the stopper has cover from his central partner and maybe a tucking in fullback? Maybe it all depends on how aggressive you want to be, I prefer the balance of option two.

Great questions and its got you second guessing yourself now which is great and is my intention of the thread.

For what it's worth I value balance with how my team works above all else. So I prefer to set my midfield up so my most attacking central player is next to the more defensive minded wide player and vice versa. I also do the same in defence which would then fall in-line with what you mentioned above.

Just something so small like what you mentioned above is the difference between a good tactic and a great tactic. The first option you mention can be the difference between a win and a draw in the bigger tight games. That's why I value the perfect balance as a unit.

[peleJunior]

The first option you mention can be the difference between a win and a draw in the bigger tight games.

This is definetely one of my weaknesses, I can be a little hesitant to "let them off the leash" with an obvious imbalance but more attacking thrust. I also have trouble timing those moments. Actually now that I think about it, there is a scout report about what times the opposition concede goals. I usually try to judge it by how desperate I think the opposition are getting.

[Stonebiter]

I never made a tactical analyse before but it is a lot of fun and i think i learn much more from it than only reading the forums. This thread is realy a good idea. By the way i have never used a 442 or the narrow diamond formation.

Ok let's see how we can get a better 442. It's funny that both formations counter each other perfectly. The 442 has it's strength in the width of the formation and the diamond have +2 in the middle. Well, with the 442 we need to close the middle but also provide more width. Firstly i suggest to play narrower because so you restrict the room in the middle then it is easier to cover it with only 2 CMs and there it is not much danger on the wings from the opposite Players. There are only the CWBs and if we can hold them busy then we won't get a problem on the Flanks. To give them something to do we should prever playing down the Flanks and the Fullbacks should look for overlap the Wingers. I don't know if it is good when the wingers cut inside because there are already a lot of players from the opponent. I would go for 2 DWs which sit narrower. That restrict even more the space in the middle and the opponents Fullbacks become closed down a lot. To restrict even more space i would set up a higher line. It also helps nothing if the Strikers sit the whole time in the middle and it doesn't matter if one of them drops deeper, at least one of them has to do some horizontal movement to provide more passing options to the wingers. I don't know if the PI "roam from position" does exactly that. But if i'm not wrong then the Treqartista does this special movement. So i would set up one striker as Treqartista. Ok let's do a summary. That are my suggestions:

- play narrower

- exploit the flanks

- look for overlap

- higher line

- use defensiv Wingers which sit narrower

- use attacking Fullbacks perhaps even CWBs

- use a trequartisa striker role

- Perhaps change the CM set up to DLP/d and CM/d to cover the middle but i think Cleon have already mentioned that.

Then it would look like that

I just want to say that my suggestions above doesn't work at all. I tried it against weaker opponents in my current save and it seems, that 2 defence duties in the middle are not able to hold up the +2 midfielders from the opponent. Perhaps it would become better when the 2 CMs become DMs. Tha you get a defensive 4-4-2

[herne79]

For a dunce at reading matches like me, this is great.

To help me learn how to analyze what's going on, rather than try to watch everything all at once (which I can't yet), I thought I'd start off by breaking it down into more manageable chunks. Therefore in this post I'll begin by offering some thoughts on just one team (Chivas) and at this stage only look at some basic team strategy analysis with a more in depth look at just the front 3 players (AMC, STCL, STCR). I'll then re-watch the match a few times and concentrate more on the midfield and finally the defence.

Hopefully breaking things down into chunks like this will help me improve reading a game in it's entirety when I play my own team in a live match.

Anyway, to kick things off, my very simplistic overall view of Chivas' team strategy is:

- Not overly concerned by possession

- Fast transition to the forwards

- High defensive line

- Not aggressive tackling or pressing (only 6 fouls all match)

- Passing focussed through the middle, hardly any crosses from the right fullback

- All shots (bar one) made by the front 3

Overall, it feels like an Attacking mentality, perhaps with a stand off more instruction. I believe an Attacking mentality already has a high def. line pre-set so I doubt it would have an additional team instruction to get even higher.

EDIT - watching it over a few times, perhaps the def.line isn't quite so high as I first thought. However, I don't think there is a team instruction to drop deeper - rather, aren't I right in thinking that as soon as you place a player in the DM strata then defenders automatically hold a deeper defensive line? If that's the case I think that is what might be happening here.

Possibly fluidity set to Fluid as there did seem to be a fair amount of movement between players, but that's more of a guess and something I find particularly hard to interpret.

In terms of the front 3, my observations are:

1) STCL.

- Seemed to be the focus of attacks, leading the line

- Had the most headers and made a significant amount of passes (more passes than STCR but STCR was subbed)

- Defends a post at corners

- Several dribbles past an opponent

- Joint most shots with AMC

- The second goal is a foot race between the STCL and the AMC - STCL won, so a fairly pacey player

Because of the amount of headers at first I had him pegged as a Target Man (attack). However a TM wouldn't defend a post at a corner (imo), nor would they be so successful at dribbling past opponents and quite so fast (ref. the 2nd goal). Therefore he's probably an Advanced Forward.

2) STCR.

- Seemed to drop deeper than the STCL

- However heat map shows STCR/L both on a similar level

- More key passes than STCL

He feels a bit more creative than the STCL, so I'd say he's a DLF - but with an attack duty not support, due to his heat map positioning.

3) AMC.

- Made a significant number of crosses, and all from the left (some were corners though)

- Lots of tackles and interceptions

- 2nd most passes, lots of shots

- Pretty creative, hard worker, more of a striker than a playmaker

I've ruled out him being an Advanced Playmaker or Treq / Enganche. I'm leaning more towards him being a Shadow Striker, but an Attacking Midfielder is also possible. I'd add in a "Runs wide with ball" PI due to the crosses he puts in.

That's about it for now, I'll add in other posts for the midfield and defence later.

[herne79]

Following on from my previous post, these are my thoughts on Chivas' midfield (MCL, MCR & DM) :

1) MCL.

- Energetic, got up and down the pitch

- More tackles and intercepts than the MCR, less passes

- No fouls made

- Subbed in the 64th, possibly getting tired / fresh legs?

- Slightly more advanced than the MCR on heat map, but passes split roughly 50/50 in each half with all tackles & interceptions made in own half or on the half way line

- Marked the 6 yard box when defending corners, edge of area for attacking corners

Possibly a CM (support) however I'd plump for a Box to Box midfielder. If there is no team instruction to stand off more, he may have this as a PI (close down less).

2) MCR.

- Seems the more creative of the midfield pair

- Most passes made in the team, with the majority made inside the opposition half

- 2 key passes made, although no assists

- Defensive corners on the edge of area, attacking corners he's in the opposition box

- Only one tackle and three interceptions made all match, but gave away 2 fouls, possibly indicating relatively low defensive stats

I'd definitely say this role is a playmaker - I'd go for an Advanced Playmaker with a support duty here. I think a DLP would have been better defensively.

3) DM

- Defensively solid

- Offered very little going forwards

- Lots of accurate short passes (had highest pass completion rate)

- During the break away for Chivas' first goal, he's actually one of the furthest forward at one point, but stops and regains his position almost as soon as he gets over the half way line (and other players catch up)

- Seems to hold position between the defence and midfield without getting drawn too far ahead to make challenges

My choice here is Anchor Man with PIs of Shorter Passing and (if the TI isn't active) Close Down Less. This guy knows his place in the team and sticks to it.

[herne79]

And finally my thoughts on Chivas' 4 defenders:

1) DL

- Got forward well to offer width, but wasn't bombing forwards

- Passes and tackles made up and down the wing

- Several crosses

- Interestingly told to get forwards for attacking corners (as was the DR)

- Didn't try to take on his man, looked for the pass or cross instead

Wingback (support) I think. Possibly 2 PIs - Dribbles Less and Fewer Risky Passes. Shorter Passing and Crosses Less may also be options, but I think just "Fewer Risky Passes" should be enough.

2) DR

- Not as attacking as the DL

- Just one attempted cross made

- Most passes made from around the half way line

- All tackles made deep in own half

I'd say this is a Fullback, not a Wingback, but probably with a support duty. Similar PIs to the DL, but could well have all 4 of the ones I mentioned above due to his almost complete absence of crosses

Edit - on further reflection, the differences between the DL and DR could be more to do with the relative strength/weakness of the opposition wingers, rather than any apparent variation in roles. Whilst both opposition wingers had poor games, the left winger did at least appear to be more attacking in nature, thus potentially forcing Chivas' DR into a more defensive posture?

3) DCL/R

I don't believe there is too much going on here other than both being identical Central Defenders (defend), possibly with a PI of Short Passing.

Neither have lots of long clearances (which would indicate Limited Defenders), with hardly any long pass attempts (indicating Ball Playing Defenders). The majority of passes are simple, short lay offs.

I didn't think either were trying to step up as a "stopper" nor did I notice much in the way of one holding back to act as a "cover". Their heat maps support this.

Edit - I watched the match again, this time focusing 100% on the DCL and there is a difference to the DCR. The DCL was stepping up more than the DCR. I guess this is because the DCL has a stopper duty set, however it could also be either a) he is trying to play the offside trap and is rubbish at it or b) has a man marking PI set. I don't think these are likely however, just exploring all possibilities.

4) Goalkeeper

I'll add this in for completeness, but again I don't think there is anything much going on here other than being a bog standard goalkeeper. Judging by his long kicks up field he may possibly have a PI to distribute it to the STCL, but I doubt it.

In conclusion, I enjoyed this exercise. It's probably the first time I've actually sat down and tried to properly study what is happening in a match and is making me look at things in a fresh light. Great thread !

[HamoudiLFC]

Hi, I am guilty of being those people who are obsessed with tactical analysis but am a bit of a failure at it. I originally was only planning on reading this series, but now I've gone to analyze the match (1st half as of now). This is the first ever match I have analyzed.

FIRST HALF

Chivas:

-They play with a normal D-line

-Their AMC is similar to a shadow striker, he pushes up into great attacking positions in the absence of the right ST (probably DLF/F9) who drops deep a lot

-the DMC, MCR and MCL are always together in a triangle

-Full Backs are probably on support, surprisingly they didn't overlap midfield to go into attacking positions without wingers in front of them

-the MCR and MCL sometimes shift out wide when attacking

-Their attack looks a 4-3-1-2

-their left ST sometimes breaks down counter attacks of own team with his poor decision making

Cruz Azul:

-Normal D-line

-The DR seems to attack more than the DL at times, and whenever the DR attacks the MCR covers for him

-ML-MCL-DL make a good combination as a triangle (similar to Honduras in real life, I think it was Espinoza-Izaguirre-Figueroa)

-when the team attacks they leave 4 at the back as a 3-1, DL-DCL-DCR and then the MCL

-their wingers are there to beat the man and (poorly) cross it in

-their attack looks a 4-2-4 (3-1-2-4)

-when they are counter attacked, they leave 6 men behind the ball! poor organization

-spaces were easily found in channels

Goal 1: Cruz

-Great movement and running from the Cruz MCL (Quintero) who constantly posed a threat with no one marking him

-Quintero gave a great through ball into Cardenas (Right Striker)

-poor Chivas defending/failing to clear, coupled by a Defensive Forward-like tackle from Alvarado (Left Striker) to gift the goal to Cardenas

Goal 2: Chivas

(i still dont know how to post photos) http://i.imgur.com/lSdgFci.png

In this photo, we see:

-the Chivas FBs supporting and giving aid to the midfield if something wrong happens, but they are not outright attacking

-the Cruz team is very narrow and disorganized

-the midfield triangle is there

-Fabian (AMC) in a goalscoring position, and he scores

-I didn't show the striker dropping deep but its in the next photo, he is the one just in front of the triangle (See how deep)

-the Chivas team were organized and the back 5 were ready for any counter attacks

Conclusion: It started off with Cruz in possession, but it ended after a poor cross was cleared and a high-tempo counter attack exploited (more like destroyed) the space that there was and scored a brilliant goal. It came down to three things: Fabian's movement, Chivas' organization and Cruz's turmoil of disorganization.

Goal 3: Chivas

http://i.imgur.com/bNgzVZ3.png

We see an identical photo for the second goal, just a different goalscorer (but it could have been Fabian). The atrociousness of the Cruz defence was showing clearly and Chivas were instrumental. They could have been 3-1 up had Riojas not missed a CCC. I also circled Riojas here as the ST ®, and everything else was almost the same. It baffles me how this team was caught out twice and it should have been dealt with.

Other Notable things:

http://i.imgur.com/ryDQfn6.png

-The weakness of the 4-4-2 is clear cut here. Why is there a big space might you ask?

-The MCR had to shift to offer the MCL options, which left a huge hole in the space I annotated.

-IF the MCR didn't shift, then the MCL would have to start playing long and will have a lack of options.

-The MR is also free and not doing anything, as the FB (L) isn't pushing him back. If the MC decided to pass to him, look at the players who can swarm that space and look at the players who will be ready to exploit the channels.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE:

http://i.imgur.com/2EJxnVD.png

Here, the space is shown again. A counter attack happened for Chivas but it failed, although look at the dangers:

-Like I said in the previous picture, if the MC decided to give a long ball look how easy it'll be intercepted (and it did!)

First Half ended as 2-1 for Chivas after 2 brilliant counter-attacks, and from a mental side it could be game over for the away side after the home side exploited them twice and are extremely dangerous. Will the Cruz manager change his line-up for the second half? Here's a possible solution:

Chivas:

-push FBs forward, to offer even more thrust in attack but after being 2-1 up they want to be looking to sit back and kill off the game with another goal (ended up 5-1)

Cruz:

-drop a striker and drop the crossing, and play the ball through them. It was obvious in the first goal, when the Cruz MCL played a through ball into the box it got the opposition worried and they scored.

-change to a 4-2-3-1, as this will offer another man in midfield to battle the counters OR a 4-1-4-1 with Wide Mids who cut inside and provide a goal threat on the ground with a defensive midfielder to cover.

See you guys soon for the 2nd half!

[HamoudiLFC]

Second Half

Chivas:

-Still really the same mentality, but as they score every goal they become more confident of pushing up and getting another one.

-Home crowd is in their favour.

Cruz:

-they still cross the ball alot.

-now whenever Chivas are in possession every single man is in their own half.

-Borrego is saving them from it being 7/8.

-their only 'good' chance(s) of the second half came around the 65th minute mark where they were 3-1 down.

problems for Cruz:

http://i.imgur.com/8lvs9m7.png

-lots of space being given.

-lack of options to pass to.

-Chivas triangle doing well to cut space.

-As you can see, the MR has acres of space here.

http://i.imgur.com/u3lJdJ1.png

-Wrong, as Cruz move up he is now taken by a man.

-What baffles me is two things:

--how Cruz suffer from counter attacks when they are staying steady with a back 4 when in possession (lack of DM killed them though)

--how they didn't let their FBs go and cause overloads with the WMs! There is lots of space to cause damage.

-You can see Chivas' STCR dropping very deep again.

Wide Mids tuck in:

http://i.imgur.com/ErtQ7ma.png

Here, the Cruz WMs start to tuck in to give themselves numbers in the middle:

-the Chivas FBs have acres of space to exploit.

-Chivas triangle not letting Cruz have options.

-that pass in between the channels -> shot -> save -> corner -> penalty.

-Goal "3" for Chivas.

Goal 4 Buildup:

http://i.imgur.com/mi7T4cA.png

Here, we can see Cid (DMC for Chivas) with the ball.

-Chivas were in possession, they lost the ball and they had 5 men behind the ball as Cruz were ready to counter.

-Cid (DMC) intercepted the ball easily, played a beautiful pass (white lines) and the team doing well to cut out an chances of counter attack.

-ML of Cruz is the only 'available' player.

http://i.imgur.com/TN5Ie2o.png

-The ball is passed from Fabian (AMC) to Castillo (MCL).

-Castillo has 3/4 men on him, passing it through the empty middle to Riojas (STCR) to score.

-The box had 9 Cruz men around it but no one to see Riojas!

Goal 5:

-loss of confidence from Cruz leads to Chivas wanting more.

-almost everyone except for to DCs are up for a set-piece.

-Fabian (AMC) skins two men on the left and crosses it in past three men who fail to notice and Castillo scores.

FINAL SCORE: CHIVAS 5-1 CRUZ AZUL

What would I have done as Cruz manager?

-change of formation to have more midfield runners/defensive midfielder, and cut out the wide men who had little to no relevance to the game.

-a 4-1DM-2-2-1 would have been great for them, as they have an anchor to protect the defence, a playmaker and a runner (CM [A] anyone?) to aid the possible wingers/IFs/playmakers from the flanks, and the dropping deep of the striker which Riojas did so well for Chivas in this game.

-maybe even a 3 at the back to combat the 2 Chivas strikers and have a spare man to aid them while getting counter attacked.

What have I learned?

-at half time when I play with my team, I should actually watch the game and look at what my team is doing wrong rather than looking at stats. I don't even do that after the match so I will be looking into it.

I cannot wait for the next game, hope you guys liked my analysis.

[RTHerringbone]

I cannot wait for the next game, hope you guys liked my analysis.

I did. Seems like you have already benefited from taking part in this experiment, which is exactly what Cleon set out to achieve

[Cleon]

Some great analysis

I will have some updates to add soon, its just taking a lot longer than I actually scheduled for. Add to that the fact that I'm also working on sorting out the next edition of www.clearcutchance.com my time's been somewhat limited I'm afraid. In future when we move onto a different match I'll have all the analysis done in one go. The first match is just to ease everyone into it and not put them off watching the game.

It's amazing how many people have told me they won't take part in this thread though as they aren't good at reading the ME or seeing what's happening. But that's the whole point of the thread and who its aimed for, if anything they should be getting involved with this as its simple, just write something about what you see/don't see happening in the match

[Daddiosk13]

Just found this thread. Will definitely get involved in the next one. KUTGW on CCC by the way. Just read your own personal story Cleon. Glad you logged on when you did....

[Miniesta]

Some great analysis

I will have some updates to add soon, its just taking a lot longer than I actually scheduled for. Add to that the fact that I'm also working on sorting out the next edition of www.clearcutchance.com my time's been somewhat limited I'm afraid. In future when we move onto a different match I'll have all the analysis done in one go. The first match is just to ease everyone into it and not put them off watching the game.

It's amazing how many people have told me they won't take part in this thread though as they aren't good at reading the ME or seeing what's happening. But that's the whole point of the thread and who its aimed for, if anything they should be getting involved with this as its simple, just write something about what you see/don't see happening in the match

I just see lots of figures running around. I might occassionally see a gap between two players, but what I have to do with that gap eludes me. Sometimes the other team lets my team have the ball and all I see is my players giving the ball back.

Yes, I have tried reading the stickies, but they just confuse me even more. Especially the stickies that seem to be over written with lots of academic language, as if the intention of the writer was to show off the fact they went to uni. Which then puts me off reading any other threads. So now my default setting when seeing a long post with lots of graphics is to skim through it and think "I'm never going to absorb any of this", and I give up, again. Then after a few months of not playing the game I decide to give it another try with the learning tactics thing, and the whole cycle repeats itself. It might all suddenly click with me one day.

[shirajzl]

I just see lots of figures running around. I might occassionally see a gap between two players, but what I have to do with that gap eludes me. Sometimes the other team lets my team have the ball and all I see is my players giving the ball back.

Yes, I have tried reading the stickies, but they just confuse me even more. Especially the stickies that seem to be over written with lots of academic language, as if the intention of the writer was to show off the fact they went to uni. Which then puts me off reading any other threads. So now my default setting when seeing a long post with lots of graphics is to skim through it and think "I'm never going to absorb any of this", and I give up, again. Then after a few months of not playing the game I decide to give it another try with the learning tactics thing, and the whole cycle repeats itself. It might all suddenly click with me one day.

I mostly agree with this. I can easily spot tactical issues in the match, but I'm not remotely sure what exactly to do to fix them. It's obvious I don't clearly understand what each instruction/role/duty change does because it's all interconnected in a convoluted way.

At the same time, lengthy stickied threads help to an extent, but ultimately they just provide small examples of how to react to a certain tactical issue with a particular team in a particular match. They don't give a lasting, long-term knowledge you can refer to. I understand the ME is so complex there can't be no absolutes, "if x, do y", but what we have know is really confusing and frustration inducing.

[Seagullfan]

I just see lots of figures running around. I might occassionally see a gap between two players, but what I have to do with that gap eludes me. Sometimes the other team lets my team have the ball and all I see is my players giving the ball back.

Yes, I have tried reading the stickies, but they just confuse me even more. Especially the stickies that seem to be over written with lots of academic language, as if the intention of the writer was to show off the fact they went to uni. Which then puts me off reading any other threads. So now my default setting when seeing a long post with lots of graphics is to skim through it and think "I'm never going to absorb any of this", and I give up, again. Then after a few months of not playing the game I decide to give it another try with the learning tactics thing, and the whole cycle repeats itself. It might all suddenly click with me one day.

Start with the basics like just looking at the 2 formations and see where each team has an advantage/disadvantage. As explained above 1 team has an AMC so they have the advantage of a man in space on the pitch as the opposition aren't playing someone ( a DMC ) to counteract him. Now watch the game AND JUST WATCH THE AMC...nothing else. You will start to see how he and his team makes use of that space and how and why it is an advantage.

Once you do this you will see things that you hadn't before. If you do this in your own games and compare the formations before the match there will only probably ever be 1 or 2 places you need to focus your attention to see if what you expect to happen is happening. This allows you to make the necessary adjustments to affect the outcome. So for example if you can see the other team has an AMC causing havoc then just move one of your players to DMC to shut him out.

I think this approach is a good start in trying to make understanding what is happening in a match much easier to spot

[deserter]

Cruz attempted to be relatively compact and aggressive in their own half without the ball at the opening stages, but wide and expansive in possession trying to create 1-on-1 situations between winger and full back. This seemed to work to an extent but left huge space between the lines which was potentially problematic when they'd lose the ball. Chivas was pulling off some neat passing moves as well and seemed able to play through Cruz midfield.

After Cruz took the lead their approach seemed to relax a little both in possession and without. They controlled the first quarter of the match quite nicely, keeping the ball and probing but could not create anything dangerous. When they lost the ball they now seemed less efficient in covering it.

Eventually it became clear that Cruz wingers weren't able to beat their full backs 1-on-1, their strikers appeared to be largely isolated and their midfield was being very conservative. It would have been prudent to change approach at 1-1 when Cruz were starting to lose the control of the game. Their attacks weren't getting anywhere and they were vulnerable when they lost the possession.

I'd have moved a striker to DM to protect against the dangerous Chivas attacking trident and to allow the other midfielders more freedom. My full backs would have pushed forward towards the space where the wingers had usually received the ball to feet before trying to beat their man. My wingers would have pushed the full backs further back by playing on the last shoulder and trying to receive the ball behind the line. My midfielders would have become more adventurous trying to get into the pocket of space behind Chivas MC's, next to DM and in front of the defensive line. That would have created a dangerous triangle between the midfielder, full back and winger.

Failure from Cruz to change up cost them the game quite spectacularly and eventually they seemed to have lost their confidence and in the end it was an easy victory for Chivas.

Cruz wing play failed while Chivas played excellently and were able to exploit the inherent weakness of 442.

[Adsuperjenius]

sorry,my post is not about analysis.but instead,asking for help

so,my browser have problem with flash player. I must not use it.the result, I only could see videos from their source. so youtube just avaiable at youtube.com ,also happen for another source.. So Im unable to see attached videos.

Would be better,if below videos,you put the link to the original source (youtube,metacafe,or else,etc) so I could watch them

thanks a lot

[Cleon]

Right click on the embedded video or where the video should appear and select copy video url, problem solved!

[Adsuperjenius]

Right click on the embedded video or where the video should appear and select copy video url, problem solved!

thanks for your help ! I really appreciated it

unfortunately,I cant find the copy video url button on my computer

[olivermain83]

Not read anyone else's analysis yet but i'll take a shot.

Kick-Off

Straight from kick-off Chivas's AM has pushed forward aggressively to become more like a third striker. This overloads Cruz Azul's No.4 but there doesn't seem to be an obvious route forward for the ball to exploit this. My initial thoughts are that the AM would be better utilized sitting in the hole.

Also the Chivas LB is very wide. Can't understand this. It's creating a huge gap between LB and LCB that could be countered into by an aggressive right winger.

And finally, Cruz are holding a very high line. Be interesting to see if balls over the top become an issue.

As possession is turned over for the first time there already looks to be issues with Cruz's attack. They appear to be keeping 5 players back to cover 3 Chivas players. It seems a strange mix of attacking system with cautious roles/duties. It looks like a 424 with very conservative FB's. Chivas already look to be defending it well. With the 2 wingers pushed up high and the strikers and CM's being crowded out the only free players are the FB's who are just staying deep. Asking a winger to play a little deeper and getting the FB's to push on would seem to best thing to do here.

Goal - Cruz Azul

The first time I see some vertical movement from the Cruz team and it creates a scrappy goal but a goal nevertheless.

This screenshot highlights the key moment. Cruz striker (no.11) checks his run, his marking CB carries on dropping which seemed odd. He dropped so much that he almost played the no.9 onside.

This coincides with Quintero making a bursting run from midfield who receives the ball plays it to the no.11 and after a comedy of errors Cruz get a goal.

To be fair, i'm not sure what Chivas could have done, when Quintero gets the ball there isn't much on and it takes a bit of luck or bad defending for the goal to be conceded.

Goal - Chivas

I have to say i'm completely baffled by this goal. If i'd have conceded my laptop might be in pieces.

This is moment that Cruz lose possession. They have plenty of men back to deal with a counter attack but I can't figure out why they're all gravitating to the left flank and ignoring the striker. Surely one or two of them should mark him and then there's no goal.

This is the moment of the killer pass. The damage has already been done I suppose but still surprised that no one is defending the right wing.

Goal - Chivas

Similar to the first goal. Another counter-attack that probably should have been dealt with easily but someone picking up the striker who stayed forward.

Monroy appears to win the ball but then plays a poor backpass. Then all the Cruz just seem to give up.

Goal - Chivas

Although I would have assumed that the AMC would have been the big issue for Cruz I was surprised at how little impact he had on the game. It seems the Chivas manager might have thought the same as the deep forward and the AMC swapped positions and it seemed like a role change happened too. I noticed the AMC sitting in the hole more now than in the first half. It became most evident with the 4th(?) Chivas goal.

Fabian the no.10 receives the ball and manages to suck in 4 Cruz players leaving the No.9 unmarked and creating a gap for the No.7 to charge into. Just from this one pass Cruz and in a huge amount of trouble. I was expecting No.7 to slide it through for the No.9 but that didn't happen (which irritated me slightly actually, surely that was the obvious route to goal?).

Instead Castillo, the No.7, ran with the ball and drew 5 players toward him before cutting it back to the No.11 who scores. Why didn't Castillo play the through ball? Why couldn't the 5 Cruz defenders stop Castillo cutting the ball back. WHAT IS THE NO.9 DOING JUST STANDING THERE!?!? Anyway, they got the goal but there was some strange decision making going on there.

The last goal came from a set piece, great cross, not much could be done about that really I don't think. Plus it was 4-1, I imagine the Cruz players just wanted to get on the bus home.

I guess what I found the most interesting is that Cruz dealt with AMC for most of the match, the game was lost for them during the transitions. The Chivas strikers were causing far too many problems with one dropping deep and the other seemed like he was working the channels.

It was strangely a reasonably even match to watch despite the one sided scoreline. Cruz created some half decent chances from crosses that might have been goals on another day. Cruz's main issue to me was that they seemed to solely rely on individual skill of a winger or striker to beat one or quite often two men rather than trying to get the FB's forward to create some overloads on the flanks. If they'd done that I think the scoreline would have been closer.

Saying that, there were some serious defensive issues that I'm not sure how I would have fixed it without a formation change. The only thing I could think of would to push the D-Line as high it could go and make both CM's defensive to try and shut out the Chivas forwards.

[Gee_Simpson]

Start with the basics like just looking at the 2 formations and see where each team has an advantage/disadvantage. As explained above 1 team has an AMC so they have the advantage of a man in space on the pitch as the opposition aren't playing someone ( a DMC ) to counteract him. Now watch the game AND JUST WATCH THE AMC...nothing else. You will start to see how he and his team makes use of that space and how and why it is an advantage.

Once you do this you will see things that you hadn't before. If you do this in your own games and compare the formations before the match there will only probably ever be 1 or 2 places you need to focus your attention to see if what you expect to happen is happening. This allows you to make the necessary adjustments to affect the outcome. So for example if you can see the other team has an AMC causing havoc then just move one of your players to DMC to shut him out.

I think this approach is a good start in trying to make understanding what is happening in a match much easier to spot

Good post, and one that I think many will appreciate

[Jimbokav1971]

1 team has an AMC so they have the advantage of a man in space on the pitch as the opposition aren't playing someone ( a DMC ) to counteract him. Now watch the game AND JUST WATCH THE AMC...nothing else. You will start to see how he and his team makes use of that space and how and why it is an advantage.

I agree. This is how I look at and concentrate on resolving issues. I really focus on a position and always have that player highlighted until i either resolve the issues, (or determine that the issue us elsewhere). I find it really helps highlighting the player, (and leaving him highlighted), so that he always stands out where he is and even if I am looking at something else, I'm always aware of where he is and what he is doing.

It helps when working out what combinations of roles/duties work with eachother and also helps on a more basic level if you are just worried about individual player performance.

I have used it less often with the opposition, but it is deffo still something I'm very aware of.

[aderow]

I decided to give it a go as well. I wrote things down as a saw them so I apologize if things look a bit strange.

Chivas

-They packed the center of the park and thus are able to collapse swiftly and effectively and were able to show this almost immediately.

-Chivas look full of intent on the counter. Always looking immediately to exploit the space in front of the back four left behind by the very advanced Azul CMs.

-The AM is in acres of space. Always.

-Chivas' diamond moves from side to side rather well, and right now, they don't look like conceding given the lack of numbers Azul has committed out wide.

-Chivas is finding all sorts of space centrally as the Azul wide men are not really playing any role of the defensive side of things.

-Chivas are able to cut through Azul's midfield rather easily with their short, quick passes. If not for a few poor touches, they'd have plenty more than they did.

Cruz Azul

-Despite playing with a high line from the off, Azul look stretched both horizontally and vertically; there's tons of exploitable space between the back line and their central midfield pairing as well as space left out wide due to the FBs staying home. 30 seconds in they lose the ball because as the STs, the LM, and both CMs have run into a mob Chivas defenders. The only remotely free player is RM and there are 3 Chivas players between him and the rest of his team meaning that getting the ball to him is highly unlikely at this point.

-It appears that Azul are looking to combat the threat of the Chivas counter attack by leaving all four men at the back at home. I guess their plan is to have a player look to cut out a pass/make a tackle and then have one of the other players collapse into the space left by the former. It works initially.

-The opposition AM is constantly finding space behind the CMs, who are surprisingly pushed up higher than the backline.

-Azul appear to want to start their possession from the back and work it forward. They've moved the ball down the wing, but when the ball is crossed in, there are only 2 Azul players attacking it. They'll need a way to pull the Chivas players out wider faster than they have.

-Early on Azul do not have any proper counterattacking opportunities due to Chivas being narrow and Chivas' FBs playing rather reserved.

-Azul's goal was down to luck and poor play on the part of Chivas; Chivas had the numbers in defense but no one got the ball clear.

-Azul are resorting to long balls as there isn't any space centrally to get the CMs on the ball dictating play. The wide players are effectively cut off for much of the play.

-Even when on the ball, the wide players are ineffective. Not enough numbers in the box when they cross it and not enough immediate help for the WM when a second player moves to close him down.

-The most effective Azul looked was when both CMs moved to provide support for the ML during one move. It showed that, when given proper support, the wide players can be effective. Though by both of them moving closer to the ML, Chivas' AM is incredibly free as are the 2 strikers. If Chivas were to counterattack it would devastating.

Chivas were set up to move the ball quickly through the central areas and did so effectively. They sat deep and hit Azul on the counter with ease.

Azul was a mess. A stubborn mess. They clearly wanted their 2 central mids to dictate things when there was no space to do so. They played perfectly into Chivas' hands by play aggressively and push men high up the pitch and were unable to stop the counter time and time again. Their wide players could have been the most effective during the game, but were the opposite; they were rarely effective.

I found this rather interesting as my next match is against Fulham who employ the same shape as Chivas. I play with a 4411 with 2 CMs and to counter the potential threat of the counter I play with FBs much like the Azul FBs; rather reserved so I always have numbers back when the opposition recovers the ball. As for dealing with AMs, I usually try man marking them but now I'm trying to cut the supply to them. What I'm considering doing is moving one of the CMs to DM in order to cut out some of the space that Chivas kept finding behind the Azul CMs. Had Azul employed one or two DMs, the result might have been different. The 'close down less' instruction might have worked too.

[Jimbokav1971]

Is this being binned for FM14?

Great idea. Would love to see it back again. Huge amounts to be learned by many.

[Jensefaen]

Agreed, would love to join in on the discussion. But maybe with a new match, as the previous one has been analyzed from start to finish already.

[Luizinho]

Is this coming back for FM15? Really good way for learning how to read matches!

[Cleon]

Is this coming back for FM15? Really good way for learning how to read matches!

Yeah it will be

[tyro]

Looking forward to that.