Football Manager 2014 - Full Game Feedback/Tilbakemelding 14.1.3

[Ackter]

It's a good idea mate, appreciate it.

And trust me, it's not my tactics, i've tried countless amounts and i'm still get similar predictable results.

I'm sorry, but a large part of it will be your tactics. The rest of it sounds like its your man management.

You have the exact same tools as the AI, they have no magic buttons that stop you doing things.

There are bugs present, but they affect both the human and AI equally.

[daylight]

The way his info is presented to you could be much, much better.

Ideally you should be able to holiday through a match and then be given a report of exactly what and when your assistant did something (and ideally why he did it).

I agree with this, whole heartly.

If a player is not paying attention he can screw up his entire tactic with a click of the button.

I have seen my assistant telling me within the first 10 minutes that would should get the ball into the box quicker, now that could change a lot of your tactics right there, if a player agrees to that then his tactic for the game has been thrown out of the window.

The same goes for when he tells you that the crosses are not working, again he can give this advice very early in the game and again it can change the entire setup of your tactic.

This is something that could be improved quite a bit.

Personally for the most part I only use his advice on closing down certain players if I feel it is right, for the rest I prefer not to change it as it changes to much too soon and not enough information to go by.

[themadsheep2001]

That stat needs more context though. e.g. what's the marginal increased probability of winning, per shot advantage? Obviously a team with 1 more shot is less likely to win than a team with 10 more shots, plus then there's the added context of the types of chances (long shots, box shots etc).

Hopefully SI take this into account rather than just looking at the headline number that you've cited?

Annoyingly its really difficult to find previous posts, but wwfan has the full post of that which he put in this thread previously, hopefully he can post it again.

[Aidan1991]

I'm sorry, but a large part of it will be your tactics. The rest of it sounds like its your man management.

You have the exact same tools as the AI, they have no magic buttons that stop you doing things.

There are bugs present, but they affect both the human and AI equally.

As i said, i've tested it with the same game, over and over again and i'm still getting predictable results regardless of my tactics,squad or player roles.

I hate to say it, but i feel the game can be scripted at times.

[wwfan]

I'm a senior manager in the public sector. My customers complain about the services we provide regularly. They aren't always right, but their taxes pay for services and if they don't think they're getting what they require then we know about it. And, let me tell you, they aren't always polite. Regardless of how I feel about it, I have to take it on the chin. That's life. I'm afraid where the criticism is not overtly personal (i.e aimed at individuals rather than SI as an entity) that you should have to stand for it. That's the way it works. It's the way it should work. As in my example the people complaining about FM14 pay their money and if they think the product is sub-standard you just have to live with them saying so. To do anything else is to offer poor customer service and, unfortunately, I think SI have a lot to learn in that regard. Why shouldn't I be allowed to call SI (for example) money grabbing without being shut down? It might well be my view and it's a perfectly legitimate one, even if some on this site are too sensitive to accept that. SI are in a bizarre situation in which they face no competition whatsoever in their specific field. That does (naturally) engender a culture which is arrogant and I'm afraid that comes across in some of the posts (although not yours to me - you've been perfectly polite).

You also have to take into account that I've met the SI staff and they are not arrogant in the slightest. They are 100% passionate about producing the best football management simulation possible and really nice guys to boot. You'd be amazed at their attention to detail.

The reason FM is the only competitor in the field is because they are passionate rather than arrogant. Indeed, humility perhaps better sums them up. They listen to their fan base and want to continue listening to their fan base. There are few developer forums that have the level of feedback SI offers here. They might even be unique on this count. The would, however, communicate more if the risk of abuse lessened. That's one reason we are tough. We want SI staff to feel comfortable posting. Another reason we get tough is because quality feedback gets missed if everyone is ranting and raving all the time. That hurts everybody.

I'd make the same comment regarding your job. Uncivil behaviour should not be tolerated and processes should be in place to shut down uncivil customers until they can learn to maintain basic manners in their communication. Rudeness never achieves anything.

[dooro23]

And trust me, it's not my tactics, i've tried countless amounts and i'm still get similar predictable results.

1 penny for everytime I read that and it turned out wrong.

[SoccerZilla]

I want the game, and by extent the ME as realistic as possible, but we can't forget we play the game because even if we manage the worst team in the world, we can still become a powerhouse. I'm not saying I want a super easy and repetitive game, but I don't believe thousands of customers will be satisfied by losing a lot and conceding goals every game.

[janesy20]

just a quick one gents.

has anyone else noticed the inability of players in the opposition half taking free kicks unable to lift it more than a few feet off the ground and it unable to beat the first man? 99% of my free kicks happen like this. could it be a bug?

[Aidan1991]

1 penny for everytime I read that and it turned out wrong.

Clearly stated i've replayed the same match over and over again, with different tactics with the same predictable results.

[themadsheep2001]

just a quick one gents.

has anyone else noticed the inability of players in the opposition half taking free kicks unable to lift it more than a few feet off the ground and it unable to beat the first man? 99% of my free kicks happen like this. could it be a bug?

I would definitely send in a few PKMs of that.

[SurferJames]

Clearly stated i've replayed the same match over and over again, with different tactics with the same predictable results.

with the same players, how is there morale etc?

[wwfan]

Annoyingly its really difficult to find previous posts, but wwfan has the full post of that which he put in this thread previously, hopefully he can post it again.

Despite the godawful search function in this forum!!!!

Reading the Match: As many frequenters of these forums are undoubtedly aware, Football Manager's ME has long been criticised by a vocal minority as being inherently unfair. The gist of this argument is that while they can accept that teams lose matches in which they've dominated possession and the shot count, it happens far too often in FM. On most occasions, these people are losing slightly over a handful of matches this way per season. Out of this argument come theories about AI super-keepers, a cheating AI, the AI "knowing" and "cracking" your tactic, matches being pre-determined as it is "just time you lost", etc, etc.

CCCs: Thanks to OPTA, we know that most players convert less than 50% of their CCCs. Of the 33 players having 10 or more CCCs in last season's EPL, only 8 scored with 50% or more of them. In contrast, 11 converted 30% or less. Further, some strikers are almost completely reliant on CCCs for their goals, normally Target Man or Poacher types. As we've explained in these forums for FM13, that is one reason why they generally don't make good lone forwards. In contrast, as page two of the article illustrates, more complete strikers can fashion chances out of nothing. In this Guardian article, OPTA even go so far as to determine a probability conversion for each chance. In a match in which Newcastle outshot Reading by 16 to 7 and had 56% of possession, they lost 2-1. The OPTA analyst suggests that Reading deserved to win, for they had the two best chances in the match with a 49% and 69% probability of conversion, compared to Newcastle's best chance, which had a 34% probability. In actuality, Reading won because they scored from a 17% probability chance. Across the match the data suggested Reading should score 1.6 goals and Newcastle 1.4, so the 2-1 result was a fair one. Whereas FM doesn't yet have that level of analysis, an educated subjective eye on the match analysis screen should be a good substitute.

Possession: Thanks to OPTA stats and The Guardian, we have exact knowledge of how often a team wins when having more possession (57%) and more shots (71%). Even if you always dominate the shot count, over a 60 match season you should expect to fail to win circa 18 times. Obviously, you will win some matches very easily. The key to being good at FM is not those matches, but reducing this 30-40% figure to one that will ensure you win some trophies.

A Holistic Approach to Tactics: Doing that takes a holistic approach. You must have good strategic skills and manage your squad so you buy the right players and keep them fit for the right matches. You must have good tactical skills and make the correct pre and in match decisions to ensure that the conditions, opposition players and formation, and the narrative of the match are under your control as often as possible. You must have good man and media management skills to ensure as many of your players as possible are mentally prepared for the game, extending your streaks and preventing slumps.

We've long argued that a subjective and contextual reading of a match is far more important than a statistical one (at least at FM's statistical level). We now have the data to back that up. You need to understand what is going on at a tactical and motivational level, not merely keep possession high and count shots. That only goes so far. Learning to win on the counter, in horrible conditions, against teams that park the bus, and when your players are nervous or frustrated is part of the management experience. Grasp that and you will master FM.

Winning and Losing Streaks: You embark on winning and losing streaks because you do not make logical tactical changes and/or are not god enough at other aspects of the game, such as media and man management. No matter how good your tactics, at some point, the players will play better or worse than expected. If they player better than expected, and you turn it into a win, morale will go up and you should be able to turn it into a streak. That's the easy part. If they play worse than expected, you firstly need to try to turn things around at half time and turn a draw into a win or a loss into a draw. If that fails, you need to have a man/media management strategy that stops the bad performance turning into a slump. If you don't have that, then you will consistently experience seemingly random winning and losing streaks. At other times, you will simply lose to the better team. You need to work out how to stop that defeat from badly affecting your players, so you can forget about it and move on. Again, a poor managerial strategy here can knock onto a losing streak.

[Aidan1991]

All "Okay" and some just below that.

[Ackter]

Clearly stated i've replayed the same match over and over again, with different tactics with the same predictable results.

Which suggests that in the time leading up to the match you failed at preparing your team sufficiently.

Upload your save here and I guarantee you we can win your match, even with the same lead up to it.

[Defensive]

but we can't forget we play the game because even if we manage the worst team in the world, we can still become a powerhouse.

Absolutely not. I dont like it when i become a powerhouse with a lower league team. This should never be possible.

[ed123]

It is only possible when people commit like 30years to the game and then things become really unrealistic. Though I think SI have worked on that and the game is still realistic in the future compared to past versions.

or, well a lot of people cheat. Tons of ways to chat.

Absolutely not. I dont like it when i become a powerhouse with a lower league team. This should never be possible.

[daylight]

Absolutely not. I dont like it when i become a powerhouse with a lower league team. This should never be possible.

Of course it should be possible, why play the game then? It is a game after all and players want to achieve the impossible.

I won the Champions League with Altrincham, it is never going to happen in real life but I loved every second of my save.

Such a silly comment that a player should not become a powerhouse with a lower league side, I guess they should just have a 30 season game where they always play in the Skrill North then >->

[Aidan1991]

Which suggests that in the time leading up to the match you failed at preparing your team sufficiently.

Upload your save here and I guarantee you we can win your match, even with the same lead up to it.

That could be a reason.

In-regards to uploading my save, you'll pull off some Football manager witchcraft and win 4-0, i can just see it.

[Ackter]

That could be a reason.

In-regards to uploading my save, you'll pull off some Football manager witchcraft and win 4-0, i can just see it.

I never said I could win it personally, that's the type of match I struggle with the most

[Blueflash]

I'm a senior manager in the public sector. My customers complain about the services we provide regularly. They aren't always right, but their taxes pay for services and if they don't think they're getting what they require then we know about it. And, let me tell you, they aren't always polite. Regardless of how I feel about it, I have to take it on the chin. That's life. I'm afraid where the criticism is not overtly personal (i.e aimed at individuals rather than SI as an entity) that you should have to stand for it. That's the way it works. It's the way it should work. As in my example the people complaining about FM14 pay their money and if they think the product is sub-standard you just have to live with them saying so. To do anything else is to offer poor customer service and, unfortunately, I think SI have a lot to learn in that regard. Why shouldn't I be allowed to call SI (for example) money grabbing without being shut down? It might well be my view and it's a perfectly legitimate one, even if some on this site are too sensitive to accept that. SI are in a bizarre situation in which they face no competition whatsoever in their specific field. That does (naturally) engender a culture which is arrogant and I'm afraid that comes across in some of the posts (although not yours to me - you've been perfectly polite).

This is a very good point. Reminds me of playing secondary school football. My team was the best and we got a tad complacent.

[wwfan]

This is a very good point. Reminds me of playing secondary school football. My team was the best and we got a tad complacent.

Yes, because playing schoolboy football is just the same as running a multi-million dollar business. Sheesh!

[ed123]

I don't think there is anything wrong with managing in one league for most of your career with the occasional promotion.

You won CL with Altincham through no cheating?

Of course it should be possible, why play the game then? It is a game after all and players want to achieve the impossible.

I won the Champions League with Altrincham, it is never going to happen in real life but I loved every second of my save.

Such a silly comment that a player should not become a powerhouse with a lower league side, I guess they should just have a 30 season game where they always play in the Skrill North then >->

[MichaelBrown]

I don't think there is anything wrong with managing in one league for most of your career with the occasional promotion.

You won CL with Altincham through no cheating?

Maybe it took 30 seasons, it's highly possible.

[MichaelBrown]

Absolutely not. I dont like it when i become a powerhouse with a lower league team. This should never be possible.

This is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

[SUPERWHITEHEL]

Not sure the point in this thread tbh, any non match engine comment gets ignored.

[ed123]

But why is it possible over lets say 20 seasons? What happens in the game that allows some small village side with no money, poor facilities, to get to that level?

Do the legendary sides like Man U/Chelsea somehow lose their financial hold? do the new regens somehow favor the lower sides? what happens?

If people understood why it BECOMES more possible, less people would have issues with lower sides EVENTUALLY winning the CL.

[Blueflash]

Yes, because playing schoolboy football is just the same as running a multi-million dollar business. Sheesh!

I never even compared the two. I said "Reminds me" meaning that i felt that the situations were somewhat similar. "Felt" and "Similar" being the keywords there. I'm not knocking SI and when it comes to being passionate about the game there are few that I'd lose to. I might not have been here as long as some of the folks that were here from the start, but ever since i happened across my uncle playing it as a little kid in 04 i have not missed an installment yet. This is a game i grew up with. I'm finally in a position in which i have to get this with hard-earned money from a crappy part-time job that just partially covers my living expenses. Forgive me if I'm a bit displeased at not being able to play the game to my satisfaction thus far.

[Ackter]

Not sure the point in this thread tbh, any non match engine comment gets ignored.

SI members are often in here reading. They'll be picking up on all comments.

[Ackter]

But why is it possible over lets say 20 seasons? What happens in the game that allows some small village side with no money, poor facilities, to get to that level?

Do the legendary sides like Man U/Chelsea somehow lose their financial hold? do the new regens somehow favor the lower sides? what happens?

It's too easy to build a team, basically. Haven't seen what it's like in this version yet though, as I'm only a few seasons in. Still seems a bit easy imo.

[SUPERWHITEHEL]

SI members are often in here reading. They'll be picking up on all comments.

Good to know.

[daylight]

I don't think there is anything wrong with managing in one league for most of your career with the occasional promotion.

You won CL with Altincham through no cheating?

I have managed to win most things while always managing from the lower leagues in England, I never had to cheat.

Last year was the only year I never won the Premiership, I came 2nd twice, 1 time by only a point but I never managed to win it.

This year I gave up on managing in the lower leagues in England for the first time ever because of all the new restraints in place.

I am now playing as Leipzig in my first ever German save, promoted through the play offs the first year, I am sitting in fourth with some 8 games to go, no chance with the first 2 as they are gone, not playing that well and just came out of a long spell without a win, I doubt we are good enough to even get the playoff spot but still a great season.

It is not hard to be successful in previous versions if you put the time in, it is becoming more and more difficult to do so, that is why I have took flight to Germany, I have still put in hours and hours without even moving a day as I search for just the right player, or indeed look at my side after a friendly and think how I could improve it tactics wise.

[MichaelBrown]

But why is it possible over lets say 20 seasons? What happens in the game that allows some small village side with no money, poor facilities, to get to that level?

Do the legendary sides like Man U/Chelsea somehow lose their financial hold? do the new regens somehow favor the lower sides? what happens?

They build, like clubs attempt to do. Alright then, 60 seasons, how can you possibly predict that a club couldn't win the Champions League in that time?

Plus, I imagine FM's support base would quickly diminish if success was wiped from the game (unless you're Barcelona).

[Ackter]

Feel free to start a new thread dedicated to how easy/hard it is/should be to progress in the League - it's a good discussion.

[wwfan]

I never even compared the two. I said "Reminds me" meaning that i felt that the situations were somewhat similar. "Felt" and "Similar" being the keywords there. I'm not knocking SI and when it comes to being passionate about the game there are few that I'd lose to. I might not have been here as long as some of the folks that were here from the start, but ever since i happened across my uncle playing it as a little kid in 04 i have not missed an installment yet. This is a game i grew up with. I'm finally in a position in which i have to get this with hard-earned money from a crappy part-time job that just partially covers my living expenses. Forgive me if I'm a bit displeased at not being able to play the game to my satisfaction thus far.

I'm fine with you having issues. I hope you have reported them so they can be looked at. I'm not fine with assertions that SI are in any way complacent, even if it is only a vague analogy.

[ed123]

Too easy to build a team? What do you mean?

It's too easy to build a team, basically. Haven't seen what it's like in this version yet though, as I'm only a few seasons in. Still seems a bit easy imo.

[into pitch black]

Beta was ok, still not played the full game. Waiting until the Italian League is fixed. Not a good selling point like.

[Ackter]

Too easy to build a team? What do you mean?

Basically in previous versions you could effectively handpick dozens of top, top newgens every season with almost no competition. It meant you had a steady stream of players ready to step into the first team, allowing you to sell big and often. I basically ended up with infinite funds to spend on newgens each year after only 10 or so seasons.

[themadsheep2001]

Basically in previous versions you could effectively handpick dozens of top, top newgens every season with almost no competition. It meant you had a steady stream of players ready to step into the first team, allowing you to sell big and often. I basically ended up with infinite funds to spend on newgens each year after only 10 or so seasons.

Also bigger teams wouldn't attempt to poach your star for peanuts, instead paying top dollar. a player could easily turn a 50-60m profit on sales, suspect some got even more.

[ed123]

I see.

How did you handpick so many of these new gens? Like did you use a cheat to figure out who the new top players would be?

Basically in previous versions you could effectively handpick dozens of top, top newgens every season with almost no competition. It meant you had a steady stream of players ready to step into the first team, allowing you to sell big and often. I basically ended up with infinite funds to spend on newgens each year after only 10 or so seasons.

[daylight]

Also in past versions from the lowest league you could get very talented foreign players to join your team and you could run away with the league, all you really needed was a couple of French scouts and you were home and hosed.

I would not call that cheating, just using the tools SI gave you.

Edit-

I am talking about the lower leagues here, such as the BSN which is now the Skrill North, this does not happen anymore.

[allyc31]

I just read all 33 pages over the last few days.

Who'd be a mod....

The only thing I'll add is that I felt the exact same way about every release of fm; SUPER KEEPERS!!! SUPER DeFENDERS!!!!! OPP GETTING ONE SHOT AND SCORING!!!!

It wasn't until I went over to the tactics board and read a lot. I soon realised that all the problems I was experiencing was down to poor tactics.

Anyway, these 33 pages have left me exhausted.

I'm away for a lie down.

[thomas_e]

Also in past versions from the lowest league you could get very talented foreign players to join your team and you could run away with the league, all you really needed was a couple of French scouts and you were home and hosed.

I would not call that cheating, just using the tools SI gave you.

Don't forget a German scout as well. Some of the german regens on FM13 was beyond amazing.

[Aidan1991]

I just read all 33 pages over the last few days.

Who'd be a mod....

The only thing I'll add is that I felt the exact same way about every release of fm; SUPER KEEPERS!!! SUPER DeFENDERS!!!!! OPP GETTING ONE SHOT AND SCORING!!!!

It wasn't until I went over to the tactics board and read a lot. I soon realised that all the problems I was experiencing was down to poor tactics.

Anyway, these 33 pages have left me exhausted.

I'm away for a lie down.

I've also browsed through this section, gave up after 5 pages.

The mods do a really good job in this website.

*EDIT*

the user base dose a good job at times, keeping things mature and direct.

Not much flaming or immature threads.

[vikingarrow]

It seems a beta was going to be sent to si testers during the weekend. So if it gets validated it might be made available soon after that.

Thank you!

[thomas_e]

I see.

How did you handpick so many of these new gens? Like did you use a cheat to figure out who the new top players would be?

A good way to go about it is to look at the U21, U19 etc. national teams in july, just after contract have expired. There are always good players available, especially after 3/4 years when the regens have gotten 18-19 yrs old.

In FM13 I would say Germany, France and Italy had the best regens available with expired contract.

If you play in lower leagues or say, for example Scandinavia, looking at African clubs is always smart. You just search up nations such as Ghana, South Africa etc. etc. and press "clubs". That will give you a list of all the top clubs in that nation and there are many young talented regens there. Haven't had the time to do it so much in FM14 yet, but I expect it to be very much the same!

[Ackter]

I see.

How did you handpick so many of these new gens? Like did you use a cheat to figure out who the new top players would be?

No, just through the recommendations of the scouts. If you only buy the very top prospects, you'll be able to get good value even if they turn out a bit rubbish. You just have to keep watching their progress and be a good judge of improvement. If they've not improved sufficiently by 19, I sell them on for a decent fee and high percentage for sell-on. They'll still be young enough then to command a good fee, and the sell on fee is there just in case your judgement was wrong and he's a late bloomer.

[Ackter]

A good way to go about it is to look at the U21, U19 etc. national teams in july, just after contract have expired. There are always good players available, especially after 3/4 years when the regens have gotten 18-19 yrs old.

You really don't have to do this. You can let your scouts do all the work for you.

[daylight]

Don't forget a German scout as well. Some of the german regens on FM13 was beyond amazing.

Indeed, the thing with the French scouts was you also got a hell of a lot of African players that had France as a second nationality so no need for a work permit.

You could build a team that not only won the BSN but with only a couple of additions you won the BSP.

[HaydarAli]

I want the game, and by extent the ME as realistic as possible, but we can't forget we play the game because even if we manage the worst team in the world, we can still become a powerhouse. I'm not saying I want a super easy and repetitive game, but I don't believe thousands of customers will be satisfied by losing a lot and conceding goals every game.

"Since the "European Champions Clubs' Cup" tournament changed name and structure in 1992 and became "UEFA Champions League", no club has managed consecutive wins, with Arrigo Sacchi's Milan being the last club to successfully defend their title, in 1990".

I'm one of those customers that would like to have this kind of difficulty level in the game (especially when we play with Top European Teams).

The more realistic the game, the more enjoying it is (as far as I am concerned).

NB: If you win without encountering resistance or difficulty then victory is devoid of merit.

"To conquer without risk is to triumph without glory" Pierre Corneill in Le Cid (1637)

[ed123]

But do you see how people are getting to the top?

If they aren't exposing the tactics/strategy part of the game, who cares?

The game is called football MANAGER...but for those of us who are really more into the strategy/tactics portion of the game, and trying to win by employing smart strategies/tactics/team talks, I'm not impressed by someone getting to the top in the way described.