Football Manager 2014 - Full Game Feedback/Tilbakemelding 14.1.3

[Ackter]

If you could provide PKM examples of those happening in the bugs forum, it would be appreciated.

[Dagenham_Dave]

So you lose 2-8 at home and attribute that to a tactical mistake you made?.

It was one of those 'freak' games where the opposition played superbly, and took their chances, whereas we were horrific defensively. Annoying at the time, but it made me realise my defensive set up wasn't the best. Which I've now more or less sorted.

[Ackter]

When Arsenal lost 2-8 to Man Utd at home, was that a bug?

Edit: wait, that was at Old Trafford, point still stands.

[themadsheep2001]

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. If two people, despite their opposing views are able to give constructive feedback with specific examples then SI have the means to solve the potential issue.

Pretty much this, conflicting opinions isn't really the issue. constructive issues with examples is. That said there is a clear distinction between things that are user side problems, and things that actually need to be fixed within the game, and it's always important to make that distinction. Often it's impossible to do that without people getting offended, as this thread has shown.

[milnerpoint]

When Arsenal lost 1-8 to Man Utd at home, was that a bug?

Yes of course it was, dont try and use real life to stick up for the game, your only allowed to use it to belittle the game.....

[BiggusD]

So you genuinely think the AI can do things the human manager can't?

It doesn't funciton properly for them either, but as I have said before, people are complaining a lot about lack of efficiency of strikers AND that the AI doesn't suffer from this. So in other words, a number of customers try to dominate and be the best team and many of them manage to do so - creating two, three and four dozen shots in a game and then they still lose points. This tells me that:

A) attacking tactics cut through the defense quite easily

B) player frustration motivational effects for not scoring is in the game and it functions as intended (late turnarounds abound)

C) counter-attacks are more efficient than playing through a crowd

In other words, since 40 chances against a parked bus is not a guarantee for scoring goals, it is better to shut up shop and going for the more efficient way of scoring goals; the counter-attack so those already doing so (or playing 442, as it were) will be happy of course. Also, the first sentence in this paragraph is nonsensical because if you manage to create 10-15+ shots on goal against a parked bus, there is no parked bus in the first place. That's more like a parked tricycle. The feedback the user gets from the game is that their tactic is working but it does not pay off like it should, NOT that their tactic is not working and they need to change stuff (i.e luring that parked bus out for instance). Similarly, if you decide to park the bus yourself and get 30+ shots against you, you are told by what you see that you are defending horribly even though your keeper saves everything and you manage to score on the counter for a win.

I find it puzzling that I need to explain these things in here...

[Ackter]

The AI does suffer from it. The human suffers from it more because they're more stubborn and would rather look for flaws in the engine rather than the flaws in their implementation of tactics.

I find it puzzling that you still struggle to properly understand things after all these years of arguing with wwfan.

[BiggusD]

The AI does suffer from it. The human suffers from it more because they're more stubborn and would rather look for flaws in the engine rather than the flaws in their implementation of tactics.

I find it puzzling that you still struggle to properly understand things after all these years of arguing with wwfan.

Are you really arguing FOR the search for the tactical sweet spot now? Because that is what you are really saying. The ME and its viable tactics are currently at the narrowest in history, and if the AI uses them right but a 3000 post feedback thread featuring 50% "unbalanced" criticism from people apparently not using them right, what are the odds that those not struggling to come to terms with the quirks of the ME are using the same tactics that the AI uses? What's the purpose of having the TC then, why not just supply the AI base tactics and the AI's in-match options available as a few buttons, so that you make sure that everyone uses the Canon tactics and everyone's happy?

[SurferJames]

Dam so many people are inpatient and complaining game is broken without giving constructive feedback, do you think repeating what somebody already has said same thing in this forum helps. If you just going criticise the game then why do you buy it, fact is fm 2014 will be best yet and many reasons why so don't be blind by some glitches as they will be fix like any other fm was.

[Guest]

The AI does suffer from it. The human suffers from it more because they're more stubborn and would rather look for flaws in the engine rather than the flaws in their implementation of tactics.

I find it puzzling that you still struggle to properly understand things after all these years of arguing with wwfan.

It's not a case of the human suffering from it because of tactics or whatever, it's because the ME discriminates against the better team, human or AI. And because human players are more creative with tactics and eventually build up a better squad than the AI seems capable of, then it appears that they're suffering more than the AI.

Strikers for better teams currently need more chances to score compared to much worse strikers playing for smaller clubs. I've seen the AI miss bucket loads of CCCs against me when controlling the much better team.

[Ackter]

Are you really arguing FOR the search for the tactical sweet spot now? Because that is what you are really saying. The ME and its viable tactics are currently at the narrowest in history, and if the AI uses them right but a 3000 post feedback thread featuring 50% "unbalanced" criticism from people apparently not using them right, what are the odds that those not struggling to come to terms with the quirks of the ME are using the same tactics that the AI uses? What's the purpose of having the TC then, why not just supply the AI base tactics and the AI's in-match options available as a few buttons, so that you make sure that everyone uses the Canon tactics and everyone's happy?

Are you still under the impression that there's only one sweetspot?

Are you still under the impression that getting tactics right isn't important?

[themadsheep2001]

Are you really arguing FOR the search for the tactical sweet spot now? Because that is what you are really saying. The ME and its viable tactics are currently at the narrowest in history, and if the AI uses them right but a 3000 post feedback thread featuring 50% "unbalanced" criticism from people apparently not using them right, what are the odds that those not struggling to come to terms with the quirks of the ME are using the same tactics that the AI uses? What's the purpose of having the TC then, why not just supply the AI base tactics and the AI's in-match options available as a few buttons, so that you make sure that everyone uses the Canon tactics and everyone's happy?

He's not arguing for anything. You're the only one who argues this sweet spot exists, and it doesnt. No offence, I dont know how many times you can be told you're not on the right track each year. I'm not trying to be harsh, but your interpretation and argument each year is always wrong.

[Ackter]

It's not a case of the human suffering from it because of tactics or whatever, it's because the ME discriminates against the better team, human or AI. And because human players are more creative with tactics and eventually build up a better squad than the AI seems capable of, then it appears that they're suffering more than the AI.

Strikers for better teams currently need more chances to score compared to much worse strikers playing for smaller clubs. I've seen the AI miss bucket loads of CCCs against me when controlling the much better team.

No, the engine does not discriminate against the "better team" as the "better team" can win easily enough with the right tactics. The match engine does not think more chances = better team (and neither should the human), it plays out a battle between tactical approaches.

[SurferJames]

Tactics are massively important, people say don't Compare it to reality but fact is that fm is so realistic on how be manager that you need get tactics right to win

[themadsheep2001]

It's not a case of the human suffering from it because of tactics or whatever, it's because the ME discriminates against the better team, human or AI. And because human players are more creative with tactics and eventually build up a better squad than the AI seems capable of, then it appears that they're suffering more than the AI.

Strikers for better teams currently need more chances to score compared to much worse strikers playing for smaller clubs. I've seen the AI miss bucket loads of CCCs against me when controlling the much better team.

It doesn't discriminate against anyone, better or not.

[Shake Appeal]

When Arsenal lost 2-8 to Man Utd at home, was that a bug?

Edit: wait, that was at Old Trafford, point still stands.

Do you have data that shows a 2-8 result in FM is as rare as a 2-8 result in life? Because that's what you should be arguing for: not the trivial fact that just about any result is possible, but that it is as close to probable in FM as it is in life. I suspect that's what SI are aiming for with their simulation, after all.

[Blueflash]

It is beyond me why you continue this charade. You have clearly found a ME-exploiting sweet spot since you're not experiencing anything untoward with player positioning, on and off the ball choices in all three phases (defending, transition, attack) for both teams.

What you're doing is trolling, nothing more, nothing less. Just like the one guy last year camping in the feedback thread 24/7 from November to March - until he was banned.

Don't even bother replying to him. It's hardly worth the effort. I consider him part of the background forum furniture, much like the post numbers. He's much sharper than Maczidane though, I'll give him that.

[Ackter]

Do you have data that shows a 2-8 result in FM is as rare as a 2-8 result in life? Because that's what you should be arguing for: not the trivial fact that just about any result is possible, but that it is as close to probable in FM as it is in life. I suspect that's what SI are aiming for with their simulation, after all.

Do you have data that shows it isn't?

SI run the stats simulations and compare them to real life, they'll be a lot closer than you think.

[Goon14]

This feedback thread is entertaining. I mean Dagenham_Dave defends everyone's point and its causing a lot of arguments. he should just stop posting there is no point of him doing what he's doing unless he's being paid to do that. I patiently waiting for a patch i understand people are frustrated but you guys need to calm down. the thing about fm14 is you have to read more about it as your general knowledge of previous games wont mean you will do well. Its frustrating to everyone that they have to learn the game allover again but i see this game moving alot forward compared to previous one. Be patient and wait for the patch!

[SurferJames]

Again reading tactic forums help because we all have different views on how we should play the game

[Schotsmannetje]

I am having a lot of games in which I have like 25 shots and 15 shots on target, while the opposition has like 4 shots and 2 on target and still take the three points. Extremely frustrating.

Is this a known issue with the game, or are my tactics/players simply appalling? Or a combination of both?

[Ackter]

I am having a lot of games in which I have like 25 shots and 15 shots on target, while the opposition has like 4 shots and 2 on target and still take the three points. Extremely frustrating.

Is this a known issue with the game, or are my tactics/players simply appalling? Or a combination of both?

It's not that your tactics are appalling, it's just they're not right for breaking down a defensive team. Post in the tactics forum about your problem (or search to see if one of the many people I've advised to try this over the last few days have actually followed through and done it) and you'll get the help you need there.

[luka_zg]

The AI does suffer from it. The human suffers from it more because they're more stubborn and would rather look for flaws in the engine rather than the flaws in their implementation of tactics.

I find it puzzling that you still struggle to properly understand things after all these years of arguing with wwfan.

Playing 4-2-3-1 with Man Utd. 4th season. World class players in every position. Playing control/fluid. Push higher up,retain possesion,exploit the flanks,use offside trap.

What is ilogical with this set up? I am dominating games with 60% possesion and around 25 shots on goal per game. 1-3 CCC per game, sometimes more. So how the hell is this tactic not good?

Because apparently, the AI needs just 5 shots to score against me. Opponent of calibre let's say...Nordsjaeland,QPR or West Brom. I'm just curious what else should I do to win these games with 3 goal margin as should be realistic considernig my chances and football played.

[milnerpoint]

Do you have data that shows a 2-8 result in FM is as rare as a 2-8 result in life? Because that's what you should be arguing for: not the trivial fact that just about any result is possible, but that it is as close to probable in FM as it is in life. I suspect that's what SI are aiming for with their simulation, after all.

Anecdotal i know, but i havent seen an 8-2 in 5 seasons so far in my game, not that ive checked every single result mind.

[themadsheep2001]

I am having a lot of games in which I have like 25 shots and 15 shots on target, while the opposition has like 4 shots and 2 on target and still take the three points. Extremely frustrating.

Is this a known issue with the game, or are my tactics/players simply appalling? Or a combination of both?

Head to the tactics section, create a thread and you'll get some good advice, and it wont get lost among here. On the surface it looks like you're getting hit on the counter a lot, but cant really get into how and why ( or indeed if some of the issues are exacerbating your troubles) without seeing how you are playing

[Schotsmannetje]

It's not that your tactics are appalling, it's just they're not right for breaking down a defensive team. Post in the tactics forum about your problem (or search to see if one of the many people I've advised to try this over the last few days have actually followed through and done it) and you'll get the help you need there.

Cheers, will do that when I have a bit more time on my hands.

I had the same issue in FM12, but solved it in that edition by implementing a more patient build-up and by basically playing less offensive, but that little trick doesn't seem to work in FM14.

[BiggusD]

Are you still under the impression that there's only one sweetspot?

Are you still under the impression that getting tactics right isn't important?

He's not arguing for anything. You're the only one who argues this sweet spot exists, and it doesnt. No offence, I dont know how many times you can be told you're not on the right track each year. I'm not trying to be harsh, but your interpretation and argument each year is always wrong.

A) I have argued that there are MANY sweet spots every year, not just one.

B) Getting tactics right is important, adjusting to what the opponent does is not - as long as the tactic employed is generalized and not a specialist tactic.

C) Sweet spots clearly do exist, since bitter spots clearly do - in abundance this year, by the look of things in here.

[SurferJames]

I haven't seen big result in my long save yet and most of the games are quite close

[Ackter]

Playing 4-2-3-1 with Man Utd. 4th season. World class players in every position. Playing control/fluid. Push higher up,retain possesion,exploit the flanks,use offside trap.

What is ilogical with this set up? I am dominating games with 60% possesion and around 25 shots on goal per game. 1-3 CCC per game, sometimes more. So how the hell is this tactic not good?

Because apparently, the AI needs just 5 shots to score against me. Opponent of calibre let's say...Nordsjaeland,QPR or West Brom. I'm just curious what else should I do to win these games with 3 goal margin as should be realistic considernig my chances and football played.

Who said the tactic isn't good? It's certainly not effective in certain situations.

Have a look at the stats from this weekend's Premier League matches alone and notice how often the "better team" lost despite dominating.

[milnerpoint]

A) I have argued that there are MANY sweet spots every year, not just one.

B) Getting tactics right is important, adjusting to what the opponent does is not - as long as the tactic employed is generalized and not a specialist tactic.

C) Sweet spots clearly do exist, since bitter spots clearly do - in abundance this year, by the look of things in here.

Have you played FM14 much?

[BiggusD]

Head to the tactics section, create a thread and you'll get some good advice, and it wont get lost among here. On the surface it looks like you're getting hit on the counter a lot, but cant really get into how and why ( or indeed if some of the issues are exacerbating your troubles) without seeing how you are playing

This is exactly what I'm speaking about - if you create 15 shots AT GOAL in what looks like big chances (which many claim this year, although Schotsmannetje may not be among those), you are per definition breaking down the opposition defense!

[milnerpoint]

Playing 4-2-3-1 with Man Utd. 4th season. World class players in every position. Playing control/fluid. Push higher up,retain possesion,exploit the flanks,use offside trap.

What is ilogical with this set up? I am dominating games with 60% possesion and around 25 shots on goal per game. 1-3 CCC per game, sometimes more. So how the hell is this tactic not good?

Because apparently, the AI needs just 5 shots to score against me. Opponent of calibre let's say...Nordsjaeland,QPR or West Brom. I'm just curious what else should I do to win these games with 3 goal margin as should be realistic considernig my chances and football played.

Stop thinking you can win each game with a 3 goal margin, its not going to happen.

[Ackter]

A) I have argued that there are MANY sweet spots every year, not just one.

B) Getting tactics right is important, adjusting to what the opponent does is not - as long as the tactic employed is generalized and not a specialist tactic.

C) Sweet spots clearly do exist, since bitter spots clearly do - in abundance this year, by the look of things in here.

Yes, but your idea of a sweet spot is "this exact way works but every other way is wrong and will fail". That's nonsense.

If you don't bother adjusting to the opponent, is it any wonder that you can't understand?

Your final point there is just so nonsensical that I can't work out exactly what your point is. You seem to be saying that some approaches work better than others, and that that is unrealistic?

[RTHerringbone]

Playing 4-2-3-1 with Man Utd. 4th season. World class players in every position. Playing control/fluid. Push higher up,retain possesion,exploit the flanks,use offside trap.

What is ilogical with this set up? I am dominating games with 60% possesion and around 25 shots on goal per game. 1-3 CCC per game, sometimes more. So how the hell is this tactic not good?

Because apparently, the AI needs just 5 shots to score against me. Opponent of calibre let's say...Nordsjaeland,QPR or West Brom. I'm just curious what else should I do to win these games with 3 goal margin as should be realistic considernig my chances and football played.

Playing Control with a higher line, and a 4-2-3-1 which doesn't usually support on the flanks in a ME where the full back behaviour is debatable, is an interesting approach.

What are your central midfield Roles and Duties, and are they in the MC or DM line?

[Ackter]

This is exactly what I'm speaking about - if you create 15 shots AT GOAL in what looks like big chances (which many claim this year, although Schotsmannetje may not be among those), you are per definition breaking down the opposition defense!

Tim Krul made 14 saves on the weekend in a match where Newcastle won 1-0.

[Ackter]

Anyway, this is turning into a tactical argument yet again, instead of providing game feedback.

If you have a comment on the tactical side of the game, please post in the Tactics forum.

[milnerpoint]

This is exactly what I'm speaking about - if you create 15 shots AT GOAL in what looks like big chances (which many claim this year, although Schotsmannetje may not be among those), you are per definition breaking down the opposition defense!

Taking 15 shots from outside the box is not breaking anything down, its playing right into the oppositions hands.

[daylight]

Tim Krul made 14 saves on the weekend in a match where Newcastle won 1-0.

I will keep my eye open to see if he manages it in the next 6 games.

[luka_zg]

Stop thinking you can win each game with a 3 goal margin, its not going to happen.

Jesus...I do not want to win every game with 3 goal margin but I would like to bag 3 points sometimes by the 60th minute and not be 1-0 up in 75th minute with 3 CCC,30 shots and 60% possesion, and watch opponent getting a draw from their first shot on target. Hope I made myself clear.

[Shake Appeal]

Do you have data that shows it isn't?

SI run the stats simulations and compare them to real life, they'll be a lot closer than you think.

No, the point is neither of us have access to data like that, but only one of us is arguing that a 2-8 result is instantly okay because it can happen in life. I'm actually pretty confident SI have balanced that kind of metagame of results and scoring well; my own save has thrown up very few results that I'd look at sideways (what happens in-game is a different story). But seeing people jump to SI's defence time and again with the default argument that "anything is possible in football, just look at this instance/result/youtube from the last decade!" irritates. It's a trite and reductive argument that misses the mark.

Just as an example we can probably agree on, goalkeepers sometimes do carry the ball out of the box by mistake and get booked for it in reality. That really does happen! But the fact that it sometimes does happen in life does not make the frequency of it in FM14 realistic, and so it should be addressed.

I wish there weren't crazy people on one side of the argument saying the ME favours the AI and strikers never score one-on-ones and other nonsense of that kind, because they make the myriad problems with this ME too easy to dismiss.

[Ackter]

Jesus...I do not want to win every game with 3 goal margin but I would like to bag 3 points sometimes by the 60th minute and not be 1-0 up in 75th minute with 3 CCC,30 shots and 60% possesion, and watch opponent getting a draw from their first shot on target. Hope I made myself clear.

Post about it in the tactics forum, please.

[Blueflash]

Dam so many people are inpatient and complaining game is broken without giving constructive feedback, do you think repeating what somebody already has said same thing in this forum helps. If you just going criticise the game then why do you buy it, fact is fm 2014 will be best yet and many reasons why so don't be blind by some glitches as they will be fix like any other fm was.

Problem with this is that since it was released as a finished game, people expect far more than this. To be completely honest, compared to many other games, it could be argued that I've already gotten my money's worth from FM14. I'm already sitting on 340 hours played (to be fair I usually just idle it) and that is but a fraction of my FM13 number. The frustration and generally awful mood in here is caused by:

1. People seeing flashes of what it could be and being disappointed when it does not live up to those expectations.

2. This exact same thing happened last year and I, as well as numerous others vowed not to buy this year's version until February( Didn't happen).

3. It's extremely irritating losing because of an issue that would not exist if the game was working as it should. It's also much harder to tell whether it's your tactics or the bugs screwing you over.

In my case it's frustration. I was free for the first time in months this weekend and wanted nothing more than to laze around at home playing FM and betting against myself as to whether or not Alen Halilovic would ever pass(Spoiler: He doesn't) but due to my frustration with the game i could not bring myself to load up my save. I now have a long, grueling week ahead of me with no FM to soothe my tortured soul(Also no Halilovic to set it on fire again) as the new patch/update seems to still be in the works. I'm a very very irritable young man right now.

[milnerpoint]

Jesus...I do not want to win every game with 3 goal margin but I would like to bag 3 points sometimes by the 60th minute and not be 1-0 up in 75th minute with 3 CCC,30 shots and 60% possesion, and watch opponent getting a draw from their first shot on target. Hope I made myself clear.

Again tho, stop expecting to always close games out by the 60th minutes, it will happen from time to time, but it should not be the norm.

[luka_zg]

Playing Control with a higher line, and a 4-2-3-1 which doesn't usually support on the flanks in a ME where the full back behaviour is debatable, is an interesting approach.

What are your central midfield Roles and Duties, and are they in the MC or DM line?

They are in MC line. DLP/D and CM/S..or DLP/S and CM/D..with CM instruction to hold position. Also I have Jones on CD/X and he does a great job in destroying counter attacks with his aggresive cosing down..Agains better teams away I play differently (same formation but counter/fluid with different instructions). This is a tactic for home games.

[BiggusD]

Taking 15 shots from outside the box is not breaking anything down, its playing right into the oppositions hands.

That is not actually what I am saying - if they were hopeless, desperate pot shots under pressure and at a bad angle or distance, yes sure you're right - but that is not what most complainers in here are saying!

[Schotsmannetje]

This is exactly what I'm speaking about - if you create 15 shots AT GOAL in what looks like big chances (which many claim this year, although Schotsmannetje may not be among those), you are per definition breaking down the opposition defense!

Anyway, this is turning into a tactical argument yet again, instead of providing game feedback.

If you have a comment on the tactical side of the game, please post in the Tactics forum.

I will keep my eye open to see if he manages it in the next 6 games.

@Ackter

Surely, if loads of people experience the exact same issue, it's not a tactical discussion per se, but a discussion about the match engine and therefore feedback on the game?

And the fact that Kruls 14 saves yesterday is a record this season and the highest amout of saves in a single game since 2006 indicates an unusual situation?

[milnerpoint]

That is not actually what I am saying - if they were hopeless, desperate pot shots under pressure and at a bad angle or distance, yes sure you're right - but that is not what most complainers in here are saying!

I havent seen anyone post a screen shot where they have missed 15 CCC's or half chances. What is happening is players are pumping shots at the goal from all angles, and it gives a distorted view that their tactics are creating enough good chances. One of the ME's biggest problems right now is players running out of options and just shooting rather than holding onto the ball, this means if you park the bus, your team will most likely end up with a high number of shots against you, without being in any real danger as players will have a pop much more regularly than they should. This leads to people saying keepers are over powered because they make too many saves, where in effect the saves are very easy to make.

[Shake Appeal]

I havent seen anyone post a screen shot where they have missed 15 CCC's or half chances. What is happening is players are pumping shots at the goal from all angles, and it gives a distorted view that their tactics are creating enough good chances.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/368881-Football-Manager-2014-Full-Game-Feedback-14.1.3?p=9174748&viewfull=1#post9174748

All of these were missed, presumably in part because the game didn't think they were CCCs.

[RTHerringbone]

They are in MC line. DLP/D and CM/S..or DLP/S and CM/D..with CM instruction to hold position. Also I have Jones on CD/X and he does a great job in destroying counter attacks with his aggresive cosing down..Agains better teams away I play differently (same formation but counter/fluid with different instructions). This is a tactic for home games.

As Ackter has requested, please post a new thread in the Tactics Forum and I'm sure there will be plenty of helpful responses.

I'd suggest you include screen shots of Team Instructions, plus any Player Instructions.

It would also be handy to see the types of goals you concede, as this will indicate where the weakness in your system is.

A 4-2-3-1 needs to be carefully balanced, especially as it faces so many other 4-2-3-1's in the Premier League.

Anyway - back onto general feedback for this thread please

[milnerpoint]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/368881-Football-Manager-2014-Full-Game-Feedback-14.1.3?p=9174748&viewfull=1#post9174748

All of these were missed, presumably in part because the game didn't think they were CCCs.

Ok, but there will always be games like that. If it happened every game i would accept its a big ME issue, but im not missing that many clear or half chances a game. I do have games where the ball just wont go in, and they are frustrating, but on the whole i dont see many games with lots of very clear chances being missed. I do see a lot of games with shots just pumped at the keeper from anywhere tho.