FM14 - New Tactical Elements

[Barkers]

Watching a game is the best way to find the answers.

This next bit is just a general statement - not directed at you miguelalves!

I think that people think too much about the game, and this means that they are reluctant to "give up" whatever control they felt they had before.

You don't need to know what every single slider for every single role did. There is enough information in the text descriptions, for me, to know the gist of what a Role should do.

but this is how the games has been played for the last 15+ years. to completely do away with that overnight is shocking.

Ive probably spent more time playing about with tactical settings in previous versions than any other part of the game.

if it wasn't for he unread small print that precludes me from cancelling my steam order id have done so ages ago.

[tomtuck01]

but this is how the games has been played for the last 15+ years. to completely do away with that overnight is shocking.

What do you mean, what has been done away with after fifteen years on the tactical side?

[Cleon]

What do you mean, what has been done away with after fifteen years on the tactical side?

He can't be on about sliders because they've not been in the game 15+ years...unless he's exaggerating.

[tomtuck01]

He can't be on about sliders because they've not been in the game 15+ years...unless he's exaggerating.

Exactly.

So often people have said they have played CM/FM for X-number of years and now they (SI) have changed something that has always been in there, and frankly that's just nonsense.

The frst FM game I got was in 2007, and I can't even remember if the sliders were in that. (I pressume they were and have been since FM's inception in 2005?). However, I do know they weren't in any of the three CM games I got, the last being CM4.

[tomtuck01]

Love that my DLP(Defend) drops between the 2 CB's to recieve the ball from a goalkick.

[michelco]

Seeing as this is the thread to ask about the new tactical instructions, I have a question about the 'sit wider' and 'sit narrower' role shouts. I was under the impression that they would adjust that certain individuals lateral position but after reading the tool tips in the TC, I think they change the width of the whole team. Am I correct in this?

[RTHerringbone]

Seeing as this is the thread to ask about the new tactical instructions, I have a question about the 'sit wider' and 'sit narrower' role shouts. I was under the impression that they would adjust that certain individuals lateral position but after reading the tool tips in the TC, I think they change the width of the whole team. Am I correct in this?

Those Player Instructions affect individual players only. You can still change overall team width with Team Instructions.

[michelco]

Excellent! Might I suggest re-phrasing the tool tip? It is thouroughly confusing.

[miguelalves]

As for me, I am still trying to find the logic of having to change an entire player role because a simple instruction, like not being able to remove hold the ball from the CJR.

[RTHerringbone]

Excellent! Might I suggest re-phrasing the tool tip? It is thouroughly confusing.

That's a good call, possibly not the clearest of wording.

If you log it as a Bug, an SI staff member will make note of it - they normally respond pretty quickly - stick it in the UI section:

http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/350-User-Interface

[shaunwwfc]

"Get Ball Forward" as a shout from FM13 is what in the new tactics system???

Also what is "More Aggressive" as tackling???

Thanks in advance!!

[peleJunior]

Just wanted to give a bit of feedback to the new tactical system. I didn't really care about sliders but I really did think that I would miss mentality as I used to use it as a guide for balancing out my left and right hand side of the pitch. But this is so much better, maybe some of us who have been playing alot the past few years have the mentality structure imprinted in our memories and it might be tough for newer players, but the thing is it forces you to watch the games with a keen eye which can only be a good thing and I feel it will get us away from hit and hope tactics as you will really have to study how it plays out, and this will (I hope) lead to better insightful threads here in the tactics forum as more and more people start thinking about the roles. I like the move SI are making here as it gives them real scope to define the individual roles and improve them for the future.

For a beta realease the engine is in very good shape and I am very optimistic about future updates refining it. Delighted with the improvements to 3 at the back and the half back role is a welcome addition although it needs slight ironing out still.

[kazm]

"Get Ball Forward" as a shout from FM13 is what in the new tactics system???

Also what is "More Aggressive" as tackling???

Thanks in advance!!

More aggressive tackling = 'get stuck in'

[lfc7]

Can you still hit teams on the counter using standard ? For e g on fm13 you could use standard mentality then tick counter attack, with you not being able to use that system how would i counter ? route one/direct passing ?

[RTHerringbone]

Can you still hit teams on the counter using standard ? For e g on fm13 you could use standard mentality then tick counter attack, with you not being able to use that system how would i counter ? route one/direct passing ?

No, you need to use Counter, but can alter than Strategy's base settings by pushing your line higher, or increasing your width.

[lfc7]

No, you need to use Counter, but can alter than Strategy's base settings by pushing your line higher, or increasing your width.

Ah ok feel stupid not working it out ha, thanks for the help

[RTHerringbone]

Ah ok feel stupid not working it out ha, thanks for the help

No worries! You just need to think about things from a different angle with the new system.

More often than not, you should be able to find a way to achieve what you want.

[themadsheep2001]

For example, There is no option to completely stop crossing from wing and avoid cutting inside at the same time. All roles have either one or the other to an extent, or both. There are perfectly logical tactical decisions behind forbidding crossing and cutting inside to wide players (when i say forbid, i do not mean it shouldn't happen at all as it depends on plyer himself, situation in the game and numerous other things, but manager should be able to say to his wide player, do not cross and do not cut inside).

It is used by strong teams who encounter parked bus to keep the field stretched. Wide players usually stay high on the ptch and keep the ball to open the gaps in midfield for oncoming midfielders or fullbacks to exploit.

You can already tell players to stay higher and/or wider

Also, no option for TM supply type is also a hole in the system. I do understand the logic why it was implemented but i do say that real football is far more complex than that. Using direct passing to get the ball to tall striker or short passing to get it to his feet is not the way football works. Few years ago REdknapp used Crouch as a Targetmen and by FM idea, Tottenham should have played direct football all the time. That clearly wasn't the case as they often passed around short patiently waitng an oportunity for a direct ball to his head.

You can also use a TM role and still have a short passing set up

[kazm]

as i see it there are two views.

Also, no option for TM supply type is also a hole in the system. I do understand the logic why it was implemented but i do say that real football is far more complex than that. Using direct passing to get the ball to tall striker or short passing to get it to his feet is not the way football works. Few years ago REdknapp used Crouch as a Targetmen and by FM idea, Tottenham should have played direct football all the time. That clearly wasn't the case as they often passed around short patiently waitng an oportunity for a direct ball to his head.

TM + short passing = pass to feet

TM + pass into space = pass for TM to run onto ball

TM + direct passing = low/high direct passes to TM

TM + one way (or w/e it's called) = long/high balls to TM

It's still there it's just called different.

[themadsheep2001]

I can, i never said i cant tell them to stay forward, my problem is i cant tell them not to cross the ball and not to cut inside at the same time

Yes I can but what kind of supply it is going to be for the striker then?

It is going to be to feet isnt it? i do not understand why you blindly defend the system that needs to be updated? these options need to be available for coach to select. if they do not break the ME.

Right, where have I blindy defended it? Oh wait, I haven't. Have you actually set up a TM system with short passing? Because I think you'd be pleasantly surprised with how it actually works in practice

Do not mistake my views for "blind defence" because I carry a Mod badge.

Thank you.

[kazm]

So wait: according to FM using Crouch as a TM equals direct football, but when you use a TM in FM14 with short passing and they actually PASS SHORT PASSES to the TM it's wrong too?

Dani Alves doesn't NEED specific passing types like that if you have the right roles. An AP/DLP/Regista/Enganche etc ALWAYS has the possibility to pass directer, depending on his creativity, decisions, passing.. Creating that possibility is bs, you cannot create 'what if' situations for everything that could happen that's where your players intelligence and decisionmaking comes into play.

You can easily play short passes and see a more direct pass to a back making a run into space, you can also see counters while using a controll strategy, because your players see the opportunity and decide now is an appropriate time for a counter, we got the 4v3 situation up front, we got the space in the back of the defenders, let's go!

[themadsheep2001]

So wait: according to FM using Crouch as a TM equals direct football, but when you use a TM in FM14 with short passing and they actually PASS SHORT PASSES to the TM it's wrong too?

Dani Alves doesn't NEED specific passing types like that if you have the right roles. An AP/DLP/Regista/Enganche etc ALWAYS has the possibility to pass directer, depending on his creativity, decisions, passing.. Creating that possibility is bs, you cannot create 'what if' situations for everything that could happen that's where your players intelligence and decisionmaking comes into play.

You can easily play short passes and see a more direct pass to a back making a run into space, you can also see counters while using a controll strategy, because your players see the opportunity and decide now is an appropriate time for a counter, we got the 4v3 situation up front, we got the space in the back of the defenders, let's go!

That's exactly how I achieved it, using a DLP support. My overall passing was on the shorter side, but with a higher tempo. So I had mixture of my CM support getting into his feet as he was higher up the pitch, and thus closer to my Target Man, but the DLP being able to hit him aerially from deep. One flank going to the byline, the other hitting him early with deep crosses. Not that dissmilar from how spurs hit Crouch in real life.

Moved away from that now though, plans for the weekend are attempting gegenpressing, reviving my old lopsided 4-2-3-1 emulation of Man United, and the Invincibles 4-2-4 shape

[kazm]

Same as for RT, basically. So how do you make short passing game and use the target man supply to head? you can't make that in the game, can you? It is viable option used all around, why do you keep blindly by the holes in the TC?

It is best addition to FM ever, it has moved the game forward immensly, but it is not perfect, it needs updates.

Just because you had the possibility to select that in FM13 doesn't mean it makes sense. Stop blindly defending a flaw in a flawed ME (2013). Short passing while playing direct to the striker. Really? So you want your midfielders/defenders to first make some triangles then hoof it to the striker. So why even use short passing and not just pass it directly to begin with.

The system that comes closest to this is short passing, rigid mentality, using DLP's. Maye change something in their crossing, but I don't know what you can change from the top of my head.

But still it makes 0 sense. I imagine Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets passing around beautifully 60 times then just ramming it to the 1m96 striker who holds of 3 defenders. Yeah I see how that would fit Barca better than for example Messi.

[kazm]

Yep. Direct passing doesn't mean 100% of all passes are direct, neither does short passing mean 100% of all passes must be short. Oh well.

[mortiscausa]

I want my player to act like playmaker but I don't want my team to pass to him so often. Basically unticked use playmaker box. How to do that ?

[themadsheep2001]

I want my player to act like playmaker but I don't want my team to pass to him so often. Basically unticked use playmaker box. How to do that ?

Use a different role and give him the option to play more risky passes.

[mortiscausa]

Use a different role and give him the option to play more risky passes.

Thanks. What about creativity freedom ? From what I remeber you can give the same option to AP, does that means the he makes even more risky passes ? I understand that risky passes are throught balls or not ?

[NakS]

Where is the "pass to feet" instructions guys?

How do I reduce throughball for all my players?

It has already been asked previously but no answers.

By the way "time waste" in defensive strategies relate to max time wasting?

Does "tempo instructions" only relates to tempo or time wasting as well?

Thanks

[tomtuck01]

"Max Time Wasting"? You need to stop thinking in terms of sliders. There is no 'max time wasting' - you either time waste, or you don't.

[NakS]

Obviously, there are different time wasting depending on strategies but I guess you know that. So, your assumption is incorrect, there is different level of time wasting and it makes sense to ask what does "time waste" means when picking a defensive strategy?

Does that means "Time waste as soon as you have the opportunity"?

[RTHerringbone]

Obviously, there are different time wasting depending on strategies but I guess you know that. So, your assumption is incorrect, there is different level of time wasting and it makes sense to ask what does "time waste" means when picking a defensive strategy?

Does that means "Time waste as soon as you have the opportunity"?

Here's one of the best Time Wasting threads around.

It's quite slider based, but has some interesting concepts.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/123088-Time-Wasting-Is-it-more-than-simply-wasting-time?highlight=time+wasting

[higgins]

Where is the "pass to feet" instructions guys?

How do I reduce throughball for all my players?

It has already been asked previously but no answers.

By the way "time waste" in defensive strategies relate to max time wasting?

Does "tempo instructions" only relates to tempo or time wasting as well?

Thanks

Some official documentation would work wonders here.

[Svenc]

Not sure if this has been brought up, but what's gone missing:

- pass into feet as the counterpart to pass into space (reason?)

- play through defense as the counterpart to run at defense (reason?)

Also the way strategies (now mentalities) were set up, it made sense to inherently link a tempo to them. Not sure what to make of four distinctive tempo settings per mentality each.

Here's one of the best Time Wasting threads around.

It's quite slider based, but has some interesting concepts.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/123088-Time-Wasting-Is-it-more-than-simply-wasting-time?highlight=time+wasting

It's also got a lot of wrong ones. One of its assumptions was that it would neutrally alter the speed of decision making, likely because there is a time wasting event in the ME that causes players to dawdle on the ball (to waste time). Multiple people in that thread then linked it to such, coming to the conclusion that it would cause their players rush things less when in front of goal (and thus proving beneficial when attacking). But upon official request I got confirmed that this has never been about anything else but wasting time, and that players wouldn't dwell on the ball when under pressure, such as when in the attacking third they would surely be. Check the events.cfg for text commentaries linked to this, if you want to. At least in this case, the official manual was 100% correct.

[MSCCG]

I used to just click on "take a breather" in order to waste time. Now I can tick this and also "waste time". What is the difference between the two? Thanks.

[Svenc]

I used to just click on "take a breather" in order to waste time. Now I can tick this and also "waste time". What is the difference between the two? Thanks.

Take a breather reduced runs from deep and tempo. "Waste time" presumably encourages your side to "waste time", i.e. taking more time over set pieces, dawdling on the ball when not pushed, taking the ball to the corner, etc. etc. (all time wasting events in the ME).

Take a breather thus is a means of, well taking a breather, literally. Wasting time is a means of frustrating an opponent/wasting time/winding the clock down. Consequently, it is only available with more defensive mentalities.

[avex]

Is there any way to make a striker swap his position with a winger? Or two midfielders swaping?

[RTHerringbone]

Is there any way to make a striker swap his position with a winger? Or two midfielders swaping?

No, only wide midfielders can swap.

[avex]

No, only wide midfielders can swap.

Oh And anyone know why did that happen? Was pretty useful, and is something that happens every day in real life football.

[RTHerringbone]

Oh And anyone know why did that happen? Was pretty useful, and is something that happens every day in real life football.

It was based on the assumption that of all outfield players, it is wide midfielders who most commonly swap.

It certainly isn't exclusively limited to those positions in real life, so as and when the inevitable "What would you like in FM15?" thread pops up, I'd add a post in there to see if it can be changed in future.

[Auqakuh]

Oh And anyone know why did that happen? Was pretty useful, and is something that happens every day in real life football.

It still happens. It's called "roam from position". The most logical player to "swap" position then will do so (...hopefully...), but it does require intelligent players, just like in real life football.

It would be nice to be able to "drill" this in training, though, through tactical setup, so that players who are not so mentally acute can still do it by rote instead of by talent, if that made sense.

[RBYRVI]

I just my opinion, Im glad that they decide to remove sliders!

BEST!

[avex]

It still happens. It's called "roam from position". The most logical player to "swap" position then will do so (...hopefully...), but it does require intelligent players, just like in real life football.

It would be nice to be able to "drill" this in training, though, through tactical setup, so that players who are not so mentally acute can still do it by rote instead of by talent, if that made sense.

Roam from position was already in previous FMs (with a different name) and is not that. It makes a player moves away from his position, but not to swap with another one. For example, it doesn't make a left central midfielder go to the right sector (even close to the line) to get the ball. Which was a pretty useful thing for playmakers, to get away from tight markings.

[thomit]

Roam from position was already in previous FMs (with a different name) and is not that. It makes a player moves away from his position, but not to swap with another one. For example, it doesn't make a left central midfielder go to the right sector (even close to the line) to get the ball. Which was a pretty useful thing for playmakers, to get away from tight markings.

Yes it does. I play a 433, where my front 3 exchange positions quite a lot. Only the two wide ones are allowed swapping, as such, but I often find (eg) my striker taking a wide right position, and then the one who's supposed to be there taking a central position ... and so on. It depends on roaming allowance, creative freedom, tactical fluidity, and players decision making. Also, if one of my central midfielders is alowed to roam, I'll find him playing all over the width of the pitch in matches.

[Cleon]

They need high teamwork too and they'll naturally swap at times like Thomit is seeing.

[MSCCG]

I love the removal of the sliders. It's faster to set up tactics, the players play realistically and you can change it all in the middle of the game just like that. It's a holistic type of system, but not in a confusing and non-specific way. I was already tired of looking at the sliders in the last version, and this one removed them for good. Get rid of all that faux-scientific slider clicking nonsense. As a real scientist, I could not get my head around those, because it was clear that the scale on the sliders did not represent what was actually happening.

[TOUGHGUY]

A quick question, I believe I read about the F9 and HB roles working beyond the scope of last year's match engine/slider/instruction capabilities or something along those lines, which is clearly obvious with a HB as he drops back but I am curious what the 'special' F9 behavior is? Like if it is something that can be noticed easily during a game like the HB movement. Haven't really used one yet so I'm wondering.

[jep]

I love the removal of the sliders. It's faster to set up tactics, the players play realistically and you can change it all in the middle of the game just like that. It's a holistic type of system, but not in a confusing and non-specific way. I was already tired of looking at the sliders in the last version, and this one removed them for good. Get rid of all that faux-scientific slider clicking nonsense. As a real scientist, I could not get my head around those, because it was clear that the scale on the sliders did not represent what was actually happening.

Totally agree, but its maybe too easy to set up tactics now - I have a folder full of about 35 tactics which I have been trying

[pazmacats2]

There's so many people knowing so much here. I admire your ability to believe what you are guessing to be happening. When I set my midfield winger to short passing, less risky, with team instruction to pass shorter, play slower on counter attack, he kept crossing the ball 26 times per match. So... for me FM14 isn't much different from a slot machine with tool tips.

[RTHerringbone]

There's so many people knowing so much here. I admire your ability to believe what you are guessing to be happening. When I set my midfield winger to short passing, less risky, with team instruction to pass shorter, play slower on counter attack, he kept crossing the ball 26 times per match. So... for me FM14 isn't much different from a slot machine with tool tips.

Or, perhaps, Wingers are hard coded to cross often?

A screen or two of the 26 crosses per match would be good to see.

[max787]

When I set my midfield winger to short passing, less risky, with team instruction to pass shorter, play slower on counter attack, he kept crossing the ball 26 times per match. So... for me FM14 isn't much different from a slot machine with tool tips.

Does he take your set pieces? I'm pretty sure that corners and free kicks are counted as "crosses" in the match stats.

It could also indicate a lack of passing options, if he has nobody to pass the ball to when out on the touchline he might just whip a cross in, since crossing is hard coded to "often" on wingers.