FM 13 New Video: Changes in Training

[spankie]

This is a game....basic rules should be changable once a year when the new season starts. These can also be random. It happens in real life.

It is not realistic for SI to let us change the rules as we fit during the game.

AFAIK Fergie has no input into what changes to make to the rules of the game. Some fans might say he has an input on how much extra time if Man Utd are losing, but thats not the point

Also random rule changes would not be a good thing. For starters imagine the number of complaints if people have rule changes that they don't agree occur in their game.

[x42bn6]

It is not realistic for SI to let us change the rules as we fit during the game.

AFAIK Fergie has no input into what changes to make to the rules of the game. Some fans might say he has an input on how much extra time if Man Utd are losing, but thats not the point

Also random rule changes would not be a good thing. For starters imagine the number of complaints if people have rule changes that they don't agree occur in their game.

Do people agree with all the rules in-game anyway? There's doubtless frustrated FM players out there annoyed at UK work permits for their (potential) non-EU players, for example.

The ability to change rules should be in place. Imagine being able to download a data patch to update your game to the latest rules if you want, even to existing games. Or being able to tinker with them if you make a mistake with your editor in a custom game.

I don't think a lot of rules will require a fundamental, major rewrite. Changing substitutes from 7 to 12, for example, is as easy as adding one setter to change the number from 7 to a user-input value. If it needs a fundamental rewrite, then there's bigger code issues than not being able to change rules slightly.

[7Bestie7]

Well so much for people wanting realism...

[Spart]

Do people agree with all the rules in-game anyway? There's doubtless frustrated FM players out there annoyed at UK work permits for their (potential) non-EU players, for example.

The ability to change rules should be in place. Imagine being able to download a data patch to update your game to the latest rules if you want, even to existing games. Or being able to tinker with them if you make a mistake with your editor in a custom game.

I don't think a lot of rules will require a fundamental, major rewrite. Changing substitutes from 7 to 12, for example, is as easy as adding one setter to change the number from 7 to a user-input value. If it needs a fundamental rewrite, then there's bigger code issues than not being able to change rules slightly.

Or people who want easier regulations can just play FM Classic when '13 comes out and unlock/purchase the shortcuts.

[Bababui]

There's absolutely nothing that I could possibly say to that which wouldn't get me in trouble with a mod...

Well so much for people wanting realism...

Seems like you are the one who doesnt want realism. Recent rules changes in England: subs named from 5 to 7; 25 man squad; crackdown on aggressive play. Outside of the fundamental rules of the actual game; secondary rules change all the time. This should be represented in long tern games as they are now saddled with the rules only applicable to the year the game was released.

[7Bestie7]

Seems like you are the one who doesnt want realism. Recent rules changes in England: subs named from 5 to 7; 25 man squad; crackdown on aggressive play. Outside of the fundamental rules of the actual game; secondary rules change all the time. This should be represented in long tern games as they are now saddled with the rules only applicable to the year the game was released.

"basic rules should be changable once a year when the new season starts." These are your words. The core rules of football do not change randomly each year and if a new rule is brought into force it is usually tested at multiple levels before being introduced world wide. What you're asking for is for a user, essentially a club manager, to be able to change the rules of the game to suit their whims. It's insane.

To say a game isn't realistic if Fifa suddenly bring in a new rule is like arguing that you should be able to sack opposition managers when their RL counterparts lose their jobs, bring in real world transfers without it mattering if the in-game player wants to join. Lunacy. You start an FM game at a fixed point in time and then everything that happens from there on happens outside of real world football. Clubs will get relegated in a game, others will win titles that don't in real-life, because you're playing the game.

[BossAsianMafia]

"basic rules should be changable once a year when the new season starts." These are your words. The core rules of football do not change randomly each year and if a new rule is brought into force it is usually tested at multiple levels before being introduced world wide. What you're asking for is for a user, essentially a club manager, to be able to change the rules of the game to suit their whims. It's insane.

To say a game isn't realistic if Fifa suddenly bring in a new rule is like arguing that you should be able to sack opposition managers when their RL counterparts lose their jobs, bring in real world transfers without it mattering if the in-game player wants to join. Lunacy. You start an FM game at a fixed point in time and then everything that happens from there on happens outside of real world football. Clubs will get relegated in a game, others will win titles that don't in real-life, because you're playing the game.

Sorry I think you're creating a strawmen argument here. What he's trying to convey is that some rules change over time and that FM should strive to have this kind of variability AFTER you have started the game, either through some form of in-game editor or a random event occurrence in-game. You seem quite fixated on the fact that he wants to change some of the rules as he sees fit so that it adheres more closely to real-life rules, but this is just ONE of the ways that the rules in the game can stay current: through user-driven customisation.

[grep]

Sorry I think you're creating a strawmen argument here. What he's trying to convey is that some rules change over time and that FM should strive to have this kind of variability AFTER you have started the game, either through some form of in-game editor or a random event occurrence in-game. You seem quite fixated on the fact that he wants to change some of the rules as he sees fit so that it adheres more closely to real-life rules, but this is just ONE of the ways that the rules in the game can stay current: through user-driven customisation.

Your nick is not appropriate to a gaming context IMO.

[7Bestie7]

Sorry I think you're creating a strawmen argument here. What he's trying to convey is that some rules change over time and that FM should strive to have this kind of variability AFTER you have started the game, either through some form of in-game editor or a random event occurrence in-game. You seem quite fixated on the fact that he wants to change some of the rules as he sees fit so that it adheres more closely to real-life rules, but this is just ONE of the ways that the rules in the game can stay current: through user-driven customisation.

He brought up three different issues.

1 - Rules change and in his mind any slight difference in a rule 3, 5, 10 years from now if not implemented into a user's game makes it unrealistic.

2 - Users should be able to make changes to rules on a season by season basis.

3 - There should be a way of changing rules without restarting the game.

Let's look at 1, shall we? Unless a rule (like FFP, 6+5, 25 man rule) has been discussed and announced years in advanced then what he is essentially asking is for SI to predict the future decisions of Fifa. OR to have the game randomly change a rule during a save regardless of if it matches what happens in real life.

2? Is crazy. Editing rules pre-save is one thing but this will inevitably lead to some type of "levelling" system. 'Oh crap, I've got too many good players. I'll make the game stop using the 25-man rule for England and Europe until I trim the squad next year.' No manager has that power.

3? Part of the experience of picking up an old game of FM is that the squads are what they used to be and the rules are how they used to be. To ask SI to bring out a system where you can update rule changes in-game makes no sense because they would be the ones who would have to bring out the patches/updates to make sure all the coding has been ironed out (as much as any patch is). When does this stop? Do they do it for two FMs in a row? three? At what point do they then stop updating the rules for older versions of FM?

[BossAsianMafia]

Your nick is not appropriate to a gaming context IMO.

I don't know whether you're joking man...

[Ackter]

It is not realistic for SI to let us change the rules as we fit during the game.

AFAIK Fergie has no input into what changes to make to the rules of the game. Some fans might say he has an input on how much extra time if Man Utd are losing, but thats not the point

Also random rule changes would not be a good thing. For starters imagine the number of complaints if people have rule changes that they don't agree occur in their game.

Random rule changes would be great for the game, as long as you can turn them on/off before starting a game.

[BossAsianMafia]

He brought up three different issues.

1 - Rules change and in his mind any slight difference in a rule 3, 5, 10 years from now if not implemented into a user's game makes it unrealistic.

2 - Users should be able to make changes to rules on a season by season basis.

3 - There should be a way of changing rules without restarting the game.

Let's look at 1, shall we? Unless a rule (like FFP, 6+5, 25 man rule) has been discussed and announced years in advanced then what he is essentially asking is for SI to predict the future decisions of Fifa. OR to have the game randomly change a rule during a save regardless of if it matches what happens in real life.

2? Is crazy. Editing rules pre-save is one thing but this will inevitably lead to some type of "levelling" system. 'Oh crap, I've got too many good players. I'll make the game stop using the 25-man rule for England and Europe until I trim the squad next year.' No manager has that power.

3? Part of the experience of picking up an old game of FM is that the squads are what they used to be and the rules are how they used to be. To ask SI to bring out a system where you can update rule changes in-game makes no sense because they would be the ones who would have to bring out the patches/updates to make sure all the coding has been ironed out (as much as any patch is). When does this stop? Do they do it for two FMs in a row? three? At what point do they then stop updating the rules for older versions of FM?

1) What is wrong with the game randomly changing some non-essential rules like no. of subs? I don't think he's asking for SI to predict future decisions of FIFA.

2) Agree but I don't think that's the intention of his change. Yes it can be subject to abuse so I'm actually more in favor of random events affecting the game world.

3) Hmm I don't see how giving users control over non-essential game rules (not that I agree, see (2)) will affect the experience of picking up old games, because at the start of the game, the rules would be as per the game year. I also don't think he's asking for game patches from SI to update competition rules (he doesn't mention SI in any of his posts...).

[x42bn6]

7Bestie7, we can already sort of influence competitions already by moving matches for television (or not). That can theoretically be exploited by turning it on if you are not in European competition (to make games slightly more irritating for your opponents who are in Europe) or vice-versa if you are in Europe.

Can it be exploited? Definitely. But I don't think it's too much of an issue. If someone wants to cheat, so be it.

For what it's worth, SI don't have to provide "rule files" indefinitely. The community might be able to do so via the Editors' Forum.

[spankie]

Another possible reason why SI can't really do this is licensing issues. Most leagues are very protective and may take a dim view on SI letting the game change rules willy nilly.

Anyway SI won't provide us with a way to change rules of a league in the game, except for new games using an edited database. It would be a bit daft SI providing us a means to change the rules of a league so that they match the current league for older games.

That removes one possible incentive for sales of the new game, i.e. playing with the new rules in a league. It doesn't make any kind of commercial sense for a company that relys on yearly sales.

Having said that, on second thoughts I can see the appeal where there is a very small random chance (think of having a son appear) of minor rule changes in a league that the player has no control of. Like the number of subs or increasing the homegrown players per matchday squad, but nothing on the scale of EPPP or Financial Fair Play, new leagues, new clubs or increase/decrease the number of clubs in a league.

[TOUGHGUY]

I am curious, has the poster pointing out one of the biggest potential annoyances with the newly whitewashed training - removing the ability to appropriately address fitness training of physically weak/strong players - been answered?

[milnerpoint]

Another possible reason why SI can't really do this is licensing issues. Most leagues are very protective and may take a dim view on SI letting the game change rules willy nilly.

Thats probably a very good point no one has considered. From what i understand they have a license to represent the current season for the leagues they have licences for, so the rules must match the rules in place for the season the game starts in.

[7Bestie7]

Thats probably a very good point no one has considered. From what i understand they have a license to represent the current season for the leagues they have licences for, so the rules must match the rules in place for the season the game starts in.

And if I remember rightly, wasn't there a big hoopla about the money from final the league positions?

[milnerpoint]

Yeah there was an issue in them being allowed to make it so prize money went up as rep went up for licensed leagues, originally it wasnt going to be included for some.

[Bababui]

Thats probably a very good point no one has considered. From what i understand they have a license to represent the current season for the leagues they have licences for, so the rules must match the rules in place for the season the game starts in.

But they dont have licenses for the EPL or the Bundesliga for example...

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Erm, changes in Training!

I am curious, has the poster pointing out one of the biggest potential annoyances with the newly whitewashed training - removing the ability to appropriately address fitness training of physically weak/strong players - been answered?

No it hasn't, let's just hope it isn't another case of SI swerving an issue!

[roseboy64]

You misunderstand. I was describing a scenario where, say: I have a central midfielder who has far too much competition in central midfield, but he can play at right-back as well, and that is a good position for him to get experience in, and best of all, there's little competition there. However, he is not a long-term right-back - this is a temporary thing until the competition eases off in central midfield. Consequently, I don't want him to train as a right-back. His tactical role doesn't match his training role. I don't want him to learn how to dribble and cross too much, because that is less useful in his ultimate position, central midfield.

In addition, let's say we have a right-back who is capable in central midfield who is poor at taking long-shots but you are training him there anyway because it's a weakness. Obviously, you don't want your right-back to shoot often, because he's poor at it, so you set Long Shots to low. However, how are you supposed to train his long shots? You have suggested that if a wing-back has the instruction to play offensively and shoot often, then the training will adjust to match that - but in this case, the tactics are telling him to stay away from long shots as much as possible! You would have to do something like set his training to attacking midfielder (to bring up his shooting) despite the fact he's a right-back/central midfielder, just to compensate for his long shots.

Linking tactics to training is not a good idea in the long run because in the long run, players evolve. A player in the short-term is different at his peak. They could be very different players. Training is a long-term thing, while tactics are largely short- or medium-term depending on circumstances. You don't want to mix training and tactics - they are fundamentally different things.

That's pretty funny because this solution doesn't even let managers think. Why not let the manager decide if the training matches the tactics? As stated above, sometimes you don't want them to match.

It is possible to add a level of deep customisation ("advanced") without sliders. This system lacks deep customisation full-stop. Whether it's sliders, pink buttons, microphone-driven input or minigames, it's possible to add deep customisation. I don't think it's a backwards move to add deep customisation. Deep customisation can still be intuitive. Deep customisation is for users who enjoy fiddling with things, lots of shiny buttons and the ability to shoot themselves in the foot if they desperately want to.

You can integrate deep customisation, too. An assistant manager or coach could, as I said before, notice that your training schedule is sacrificing one of your player's biggest strengths, and therefore tell you about it. A feature can be deep and integrated.

Exactly:

"Right coaches. You see these strikers? They need extra work their ball control, this guy is going to be retrained as a centre back libero but needs work on his marking, the wingers we have that are speed demons need to start learning how to finish so they can cut in while the others need to boost their stamina because I don't want them getting exhausted before half time. Aside from that, you're good to go."

Clicks and drop down menus. Doing a Training Creator with "advanced" doesn't mean we have to have access to sliders if SI wants to move away from them. It means we should be able to highlight specific areas for each training routine. Essentially take the "individual focus"concept and expand it. No one knows exactly how an individual focus affects the weighting of training/the sliders but it's an advanced option that makes sense and gives control.

This. I am in no way advocating for sliders to be brought back. IMO the move forward is good. The problem lies in the lack of customisation available. Should be able to create schedules that set ball control higher and defending lower for a certain player while vice versa for another player even if you're training them for the same role. This is because you just want to maintain a level with one player whereas the other player requires boosting with the attributes that link to that category.

Remove the sliders? Yes. Wasn't really a fan of them. Allow a team focus focus? Yes. Realistic since teams will train as a whole quite a bit. Remove the option to customise? No. Players will be broken up into groups to work on specific things related to their position and also individuals will do work on their own. The group thing is allowed for with the strikers all training together but what if I don't feel that the available striker roles adequately train a particular player? Someone could have the makings of a ball playing CB so you set him to train that role. If he lacks in his attributes that affect his aerobic category I'm limited to focusing on only 1 attribute at a time. Would be much better if I could set his work on the aerobic category to be higher so that it would push up all the attributes in that category while still working on the key attributes for him to be a ball playing defender.

[roseboy64]

Put simply allowing us to train certain categories higher per player is an option that's been take away. Allowing focus on higher intensity for one or two training categories is perhaps an option that goes some way to alleviating the removal of broader variability in player development. Individual attribute focus alone when a player has potential but is deficient in more than one area that you can't focus on isn't ideal. I want my technically able CB who is lacking in his physical attributes to be able to develop these areas, aerobic and strength, while also developing the key areas for his ball playing defender role such as the technical and defending. This new system takes away that possibility whereas the old system allowed for that. Some way needs to be found for allowing the new system to give us this back. Also, what if I want all my players to be technically proficient to at least a decent standard. No use playing a possession based tactic if I can't improve my defenders' abilities in this area without restricting their growth in others. New system good. Lack of more options bad.

[RTHerringbone]

Wow! Pretty clear from the sheer volume of emotive replies that this thread is (a) dominated by somebody with a strong opinion and (b) provoking a range of responses. FM to me is a series which attracts people with varying levels of expectation with regard to involvement and micro-managing. Personally, I have always been reluctant to fully immerse myself into a micro-managing mode, for fear of heading up my own backside with hypothesis, argument and counter argument. My propensity to "dumb it down" itself almost certainly shapes my response here. For me, SI are stuck in a situation where they commercially would be insane not to meet the expectations of the mainstream user base, and whilst I have no statistics or evidence to profile this "mainstream", I would suggest that a large population of FM players do not spend an onerous amount of time debating whether to focus their second strikers training on ball control rather than finishing. The development of this series must be an utter ******* to administer; some decisions made will rile a subset of fans, whilst appeasing others and vice versa. The fact that we all get so emotive about these decisions is indicative of the quality of the game and our collective desire for it to meet our own individual demands. You can't please all the people all the time, but you can please a lot of them.

[Matej]

Why have you removed the option though? I'm perfectly happy to micromanage training schedules.

I set what categories my player should be training in, and then the coaches run those category based sessions.

The coaches do not decide how much of each category a player needs because that's my job.

Except you've ripped away player choice and are forcing players down this casual friendly dumbed down pre-set schedule form. The mechanics might be exactly the same but you have ruined the way the player can choose to implement them.

It's like telling us that the tactic mechanics remains the same, except we've now made it so you can only pick from 1 of 4 pre-set formations, 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 and 5-3-2.

The mechanics might be the same, but the way those mechanics are visible and interacted with the player would be destroyed. Just like the training module interaction and choice has been destroyed.

Since everyone else in this thread seems to be saying "OMG WAT UNTIL TEH DEMOSZ!!!" I'll ask you direct question:

1) Why have you removed the ability for a player to train in a 'role' and work on a specific attribute at the same time, forcing a player to do generic training plus one attribute only, completely destroying the entire purpose of your new "role" system for anyone who needs to develop one part of an overall role.

2) Does the human player have the ability to create their own training schedules in the exact same way as FM12, with their own decisions to put players onto training schedules created via use of the category workload slider system?

3) In the event that your answer to #2 is "no", Is there any ability for a player can create their own 'pre-set' schedules for example by editing a text or settings file in notepad, that would then show up in the new pre-set form system along side the new pre-set 'roles'?

4) If the answer to #2 and #3 is no, why have you ripped away the choice of the user in favour of a dumbed down, unrealistic, lacking player choice, casual friendly option, and not kept the old system in place for users who made the effort to learn the old training system?

these Q are best thing i saw in this thread. If the answers 2 and 3 are NO, and Riz Remes said No as asnwers, why we cant make our own training for group of players? You said you made things more user friendly and more realistic. I can agree with that. But realistic is that i can make my own training schedule. every coach has his own style how to train players. Like someone mentioned marcelo bielsa in this thread, I, like him, like to put lots of my time into training. And now ill just click one button and thats it? ANd i cant do anything specific. why SI thinks user friendly means not work at all? so ill put my winger to train winger high and thats it? Really? Thats how you handle problems? IM really really not happy what you doing with training. You are turning this game into TV show. we are more and more just watchers.

And he also made good point about his 532 formation. he said, in short, that he is using his wing backs with atacking mentality and he trained them with high shooting. its very important for any wing back formations. and now we cant make our own training for example, LB or WB to train high shooting, creativity... I cant except this.

And someone said this is football manager, not football coach. Come on, do you think manager just buys players, says go lads play 442 and thats it? lol. Football manager is on training 2. FM is making his own tactic with thousands and thousands possibilities. He is dealing with players problems.. lots of stuff. ok, if they put what football manager really can do in real life, you can make "user friendy" training. But dont say to defend SI that this is FM not FC. this is game and i wont to have control in my game.

off topic, did they change anything in tactic engine, we wont new tactic possibilities. any news with match engine? i dont mean 3d, i mean some new improvements for making tactics, formations? specific player duties? any news?

[tommonufc]

This is basically the direction where we are trying to take the training module. You employ a number of coaches to run the training, so you shouldn't have to micromanage the detailed drills for every single player. So the AI coaches will setup the basic training drills (or slider values, whatever way you want to view it) and by assigning an individual focus on a certain role, the training levels are adjusted so the key attributes are trained more.

Yes, it might not be perfect right off the bat, but we believe this is the right direction to go for.

Oh, and someone wondered earlier about new positions and the focus on roles in training. I can confirm that you can indeed assign a player to learn a new position and at the same time, you can assign him to focus on a role linked to the new position even if he is not yet accomplished in that.

This was discussed at multiple points during the design and development process and there were arguments for and against. For the time being however, the decision was made to not include an advanced mode. Yes, technically you might be able to satisfy more people by including an advanced mode but I wouldn't go as far as saying it would satisfy everyone

I would strongly argue that training and the ability to develop players is a skill that real life managers hone and achieve, and is an art. I'd continue to strongly argue that Sir Alex Ferguson as an example, with all his years within management has far, far greater skill and ability in developing the careers of young players, as well as honing the skills of a team to suit a style of play, than a manager of a standard you would see in the English League 2 in his infant years within the game. An issue I raised much earlier within this thread, that the training and development of players and coaching is basics and fundamentally what being a manager of a football team is about - and therefore should be represented with equal importance within the game, something I quite simply think has never been the case, and is even further from an ideal than it has ever been. The impression that I get from the new training model is one that is showing me that there is little skill to acquire, or knowledge needed to train my players - so therefore there is no representation of the scale of skill, ability or talent of coaching players represented within the real world. Somebody picking up the game for the first time has around about the same level of control as a player who has hours worth of experience with the system.

As developers, it may be your best intentions to design a model or training that is easy to use and caters for everyone, but taking away the, albeit limit level of skill or knowledge needed to use the slider system of training you are then leaving everyone - first time gamers, seasoned players with a training model that is rigid and something that isn't going to stand the test of time. These players who pick the game up for the first time, admire the ease of use of training, will soon, over hours of use find the model repetitive and inflexible. The option to then progress onto a more advanced slider mechanism seems an obvious one, one that I find baffling has been overlooked, as it would allow for a natural progression onto a more advanced level of training control. This system has worked well with the tactical side of the game, with the Tactics Creator, where by users who fill the need to break free for pre-determined settings will have the option to use Classic Mode. Can you give us any detailed reasoning into why this wasn't deemed a worthy solution?

You will notice I have highlighted a quote of yours, of which brings me on to me second question. What level of importance do SI place on training in relation to the various other areas that are within the game? What sort of understanding do you have that training is something that a manager will spend the majority of his working week with, and this surely needs to be replicated to a much high standard within the game. This is not to say that I should have to immerse myself for hours, or even 10 mins every week within the game, but I surely feel that a greater level of commitment, understanding and skill should be required to master an art of how to train, coach and develop players - as after all this is a football management sim, and after all this is what managers or coaches of football clubs spend their time doing.

The slider system has been within Football Manager for a long time, as long as I can remember I have to say. So for you to come out, and say "it might not be perfect right off the bat, but we believe this is the right direction to go for." inspires me with no confidence in SI as developers at all; and whilst this may be the case behind closed doors, surely isn't something you should be so freely admiring in such a brief siting. As previously iterated, training is undeniably a huge part of football management, so surely should take greater focus when developing within the game than other areas - quite simply because of the importance that is developed and implemented correctly - of which by your own admittance it isn't.

There have been little to no development or evolution within the training side of the game for years and years, which could see argument for neglect, but could also see reasoning that SI are working hard to make sure that any changes that are made are fit, working and of solid enough quality to not be deemed "might not be perfect". The question I have to ask myself then, is how hard have SI been working if first this is the best they can come up with, and secondly they are then classing it as unfinished. This is worrying to say the least, and the impression I get is that this is the case across the board, over various areas of the game - something that would explain an outdated ME, and no development on another important facet of management tactics in many years. Once SI created and implemented the Tactics Creator it would be surely the case that work start on the next stage of this area of the game, and by that reasoning it would surely be of expectancy to see some of this work within this release of the game - which by my understanding isn't the case - so what have you been doing with your time.

Final questions if you'd be kind enough to answer, were you say "may not be perfect"; how not perfect is this training model?

Why are SI allowing a clearly, again, by your own admission, unfinished article to be released, and replace an effective model of training that allowed you a great level of control and where a players remaining PA was placed?

What would you deem not to be perfect by it?

When are we to see the a much closer to 'perfect' model?

[Matej]

I just want to know where managers in this game, can make difference? you are taking everything from the game, saying this game is user friendly. but what you really do, you are making game very simple. we had great new things on wishlists, but i cant see any major one, except ball physics, that its improved.

did you make better AI? will see about that. Scouting is even more easy.. everthing is more easy from what i saw from videos. I just hope it wont happen again that managers like mourinho dont go from club 3 days before Finale game of champ league.

From what i saw , i will only have problems with press confererence and when i talk with my players. And that would last just for short time, after i figure correct right answers.

what i wont to say, game would again be too easy. We are celibrating 20 years of playing this game. All i wanted smart AI in all aspects. we deserved that and i know you can do it. Stop adjusting this game for new players and no real challenges for us who are with this game for 20 years. Every year. When ill see video with Miles Jacobson saying this year prepare for stuning AI? Prepare to lose games? im waiting for that day.

i already bought game, like every year. But if this year AI dont bring some really good challenges, ill go beserk. and i dont mean challenges like you put in that mode you talking about, for half year or year challenges. I mean on long careers. SInce FM 2008 i think, every time i won premiership, i knew ill win it in next years 2. It makes me sick. i want that AI adjuct to my style and be real competition in long careers.

Enough of marketing stuff, here on these forums we can talk open. what SI made for this year to make game more challenging? you say 900 NEW improvements. Where can i see list of these improvements? i dont need 900 of them.. i need just few. Much better AI, new tactic screen with new possibilities...We have same engine for dont know, 6-7 years? i dont need some quick wizards i hate stars system what tells you ( even fools can lean on that, who can count to 5) who is better player. I want many things hidden, so that MY perception is important.

P.s. milnerpoint i like u, u are good guy. i really think so. but you have 8,183 posts in 2 years of playing this game. im with this game much longer then you and i cant understand that you have 8000 posts where you are always on SI side. you never criticize them., NEver. they are people 2, you know. they make mistakes. It would be good for them and us if u are more critic in your posts. We all know this is best manager game. we are here to make game better, not to tell SI how great they are.

[grep]

FM13 will be a good game like the previous ones, I am pretty sure about it.

I am sure as well FM will have the same issues of its predecessors too.

This I guess cause of the usage of the very same FM core engine since years, it keeps on bringing benefits but it brings also the same issues year after year.

[mightymanager]

I hope that in this improvement, we will be also able to see more informations about performance of each player in the trainning, as :

" the player X has in the evening session, has shown a acceleration ability improved and is ready for the next match to play, but I in movement off ball he has to train more" etc...

I meant more deep detail for each session training, in order to be closed to the players and take decision in function.

[grep]

Will FM13 allow to train defenders, forwarders, midfielders and keepers separately ?

thx

[davidbowie]

Will FM13 allow to train defenders, forwarders, midfielders and keepers separately ?

thx

It's been dumbed down.

The game trains the entire team as one entire group. SI claim that your coaches will supposedly train players based on their position, but we have no way of knowing that.

Then a player can train as a role.

Unless the role doesn't match what you want him to do. Then you're screwed. Like attacking wing-backs who won't have access to shooting training.

[grep]

It's been dumbed down.

The game trains the entire team as one entire group. SI claim that your coaches will supposedly train players based on their position, but we have no way of knowing that.

Then a player can train as a role.

Unless the role doesn't match what you want him to do. Then you're screwed. Like attacking wing-backs who won't have access to shooting training.

This is a sad news indeed.

This way what am I supposed to choose ? Shooting for keepers ? Defending for strikers ?

OMFG

[grep]

I have seen again the video and it seems you can ask a coach to train a player/s on a specific area f.i. shooting.

Well, this should be good but I have to watch again the video to be sure.

[davidbowie]

I have seen again the video and it seems you can ask a coach to train a player/s on a specific area f.i. shooting.

Well, this should be good but I have to watch again the video to be sure.

If you do this you can't train your player in any role, so the player has only generic training.

[grep]

If you do this you can't train your player in any role, so the player has only generic training.

Sorry but I don't get it. You mean a player can not be trained in another role anymore for example from CD to become a LM ?

[davidbowie]

Sorry but I don't get it. You mean a player can not be trained in another role anymore for example from CD to become a LM ?

No. That is training a player in a new position.

Training a player in a role is for training them as a complete forward, or poacher, or ball playing centreback.

You can still retrain a player in a new position.

[TOUGHGUY]

No, "new position" training is in the game as always.

The basic training, however, has three "options", so to speak, only one of which can be active at any time for any given player. Either he has no focus and is on a general training schedule (presumably/hopefully at least somehow suited to his general position - I'm thinking something along the lines of the default training schedules from FM12), OR he can be using the aforementioned general training schedule AND be focused on a single attribute (i.e. finishing), OR he will have his focus set on one of the roles available in the Tactics Wizard (i.e. deep-lying playmaker) which will presumably be somewhat different to the general training schedule (i.e. an advanced playmaker training his attacking attributes more, while ball-winning midfielder will train his defensive skills more) BUT he cannot focus on a single attribute at the same time.

This is why some people are annoyed at the change, as it hinders the ability of players to come up with interesting tactics and new roles and forces them to adopt the limitations of the tactics wizard.

[wwfan]

I was just saying that SI is trying to steer FM towards less options in order to meet the demand of a better ME. There is no need for more complexity, though - just a better AI. It puzzles me that any game developer would want to design a single-player game (mostly) around things the user can do and then try to make the AI compete with the humans. The sensible method of single-player game creation is to begin with the design of the AI and what it can do, then the UI for us humans. After all, FM -is- the AI. It is like the game designers come up with an idea like that of the training module saying "this will make it much easier to use for the gamers", then someone asks "well, will the AI be able to use it?" "....eeeer no that would take way too much processing power. We will have to simulate it as generically as possible, so that its effect on AI-controlled players appear realistically and fairly. It will probably take hundreds of hours of testing to find the right balance."

Let's repeat that with tactics. "aah finally done with the TC. Amazing work guys, this is much more intuitive and immersive for our customers." "So what will we do about the AI tactics?" "...uh no idea. It can't use all these options, it would take too much testing to balance correctly." "What about just maxing out mentality and forward runs when they are behind and minimizing those when they are in the lead?" "Yeah that would work. Apply that to all formations in all football cultures! It will probably be enough to simulate tactical changes so that things appear differently as the score changes".

Aaaand let's repeat that with scouting: "... so this way we've obscured the CA/PA values enough that they'll find only 10% of the actual world class talents, and since they're randomly distributed it will take time to build a team consisting only of them. Brilliant work guys!" "So how will the AI managers find them?" "Dude, they can't use actual scouts, that will take too much processing time! We will have to simulate scouting knowledge by assigning the knowledge of the existence of world-class talent randomly to the big clubs upon creation." "But wouldn't that be considered rubber-banding?" "No, that's for racing games. Besides, how else are we going to do it?"

Except that isn't how it works.

[grep]

No, "new position" training is in the game as always.

The basic training, however, has three "options", so to speak, only one of which can be active at any time for any given player. Either he has no focus and is on a general training schedule (presumably/hopefully at least somehow suited to his general position - I'm thinking something along the lines of the default training schedules from FM12), OR he can be using the aforementioned general training schedule AND be focused on a single attribute (i.e. finishing), OR he will have his focus set on one of the roles available in the Tactics Wizard (i.e. deep-lying playmaker) which will presumably be somewhat different to the general training schedule (i.e. an advanced playmaker training his attacking attributes more, while ball-winning midfielder will train his defensive skills more) BUT he cannot focus on a single attribute at the same time.

This is why some people are annoyed at the change, as it hinders the ability of players to come up with interesting tactics and new roles and forces them to adopt the limitations of the tactics wizard.

I agree with your opinion.

I am also curios why SI changed that. This new way surely doesn't save time, on the contrary it is now necessary to fiddle definitely more time with training and in addition you can't have the freedom of customization we had before.

I suspect that a negative feature has been introduced to have material for FM14 to say : " we have revamped the training system reintroducing the old system ". That is not fair Miles.

I am heavily disappointed with this new cut, heavily disappointed indeed.

[milnerpoint]

Except that isn't how it works.

Why do you bother, almost every post of his is some made up tripe that has very little bearing on the game.

[TOUGHGUY]

I agree with your opinion.

I am also curios why SI changed that. This new way surely doesn't save time, on the contrary it is now necessary to fiddle definitely more time with training and in addition you can't have the freedom of customization we had before.

I suspect that a negative feature has been introduced to have material for FM14 to say : " we have revamped the training system reintroducing the old system ". That is not fair Miles.

I am heavily disappointed with this new cut, heavily disappointed indeed.

I'm fairly sure all these changes were down to the tactics wizard roles and options being considered to communicate the tactical options better than the slides themselves, which is fair enough I suppose. Basically they were found to work within the 'slider framework', and did not break it - as opposed to, say, excessive use of forward/side/back arrows. They were also together with the new training approach seen as fairly realistic - although I question this 'easy way out' argument as these simplifications removed the ability to mimic certain real life tactics.

In the end the objective and what the devs are trying to achieve is commendable, I guess - having a tactical/training system whose options and applications are absolutely clear to the player, and which do work as they should in the game - but the fact that in an attempt to at least achieve it partially, content was removed and options were taken away from from the player, including non-game-breaking ones, is not. Too bad that out of the wealth of options, of which some were bugged, the solution was to cherry pick only a handful instead of ironing them all out the and keeping the incredible number of fun possibilities.

[jim morrow]

Don't dream too high, they are absolutely no change for training in this FM13 version. They add some feature but the philosophy and routine hidding back the training are the same and work in the same way than FM2012 and FM2011.

[grep]

Basically they were found to work within the 'slider framework', and did not break it - as opposed to, say, excessive use of forward/side/back arrows.

I can't really imagine an " excessive use of arrows " because in the reality if I want a player to train 6 hours a day on shooting I do not see a reason why I should be prevented to do that. Don't you agree ?

[Super Bladesman]

If you told a player to train 6 hours a day on shooting, I think you'd have a transfer request by the end of the first week.

[jim morrow]

Don't forget that training is nothing without match exercise. Player will never progress if he doesn't play and mainly doesn't play enough. To play enough match is the real trigger of the training.

[TOUGHGUY]

I can't really imagine an " excessive use of arrows " because in the reality if I want a player to train 6 hours a day on shooting I do not see a reason why I should be prevented to do that. Don't you agree ?

F/S/B-arrows are not training. They are the forgotten art of variable player positioning last seen in FM 10 or 09 or thereabouts. Under certain circumstances the game engine could be confused greatly and broken and goals scored all day every day against helpless opposition as a result.

[grep]

If you told a player to train 6 hours a day on shooting, I think you'd have a transfer request by the end of the first week.

If his value doubles every 6 months and therefore his salary, I doubt he will request any sort of transfer.

Doing that I was able to achieve what I said for 2 players of mine ( among 25 ) so preventing that is not well accepted by me. You can understand I guess.

[x42bn6]

If you told a player to train 6 hours a day on shooting, I think you'd have a transfer request by the end of the first week.

Adding morale to have a greater influence on training is a good idea, but you should be able to shoot yourself in the foot by doing so. You can't with the new system. You can't assign them stupid training schedules and suffer for it. You should be able to in the unusual or rare circumstance where "standard is bad".

[grep]

Adding morale to have a greater influence on training is a good idea, but you should be able to shoot yourself in the foot by doing so. You can't with the new system. You can't assign them stupid training schedules and suffer for it. You should be able to in the unusual or rare circumstance where "standard is bad".

Exactly.

10 char

[hursty2]

You shouldn't be able to manipulate training in an unrealistic manner though.

[grep]

You shouldn't be able to manipulate training in an unrealistic manner though.

What do you mean ?

To me everything the game allows is " legal ". I consider the usage of FMRTE as " illegal " or better said " cheat ".