FM 13 New Video: Changes in Training

[ham_aka_stam]

I like the look of this.

I've never really used custom schedules because they were just too cheaty/exploity.

They aren't cheaty or exploity at all.

You could say it's micromanaging, arguably more than even top clubs do, but there was no cheating or exploiting available.

[davidbowie]

They aren't cheaty or exploity at all.

You could say it's micromanaging, arguably more than even top clubs do, but there was no cheating or exploiting available.

We should get Ackter to go tell AC Milan their medical lab is cheaty and exploity.

No. It is fairly intuitive. For example if you want your striker to be a deep lying playmaker you would train him in the DMC position and in the deep lying playmaker set of attributes.

You can't though. The video showed a striker and the only options he had were Striker options.

In the very low leagues I often re-trained strong tall CB's to be strikers. With this I won't be able to do it because the game will force picking of one of the defensive training schedules and none of them will have anything to do with shooting.

This was the main design point of the training revamp this year. Teams train together and whilst for some drills they are split into sub-groups based on the position they are expected to play, at the end of the day the training is not about having 25 players doing individually tailored drills alone at the training ground, its about the team training together (either in one group or a few different groups).

The way training works in relation to player progression and the coaching duties is pretty much the same under the hood, however there have been some changes to accommodate things like focusing a player on a role instead of just one attribute and the new team level focuses and intensities.

We were well aware of the fact that some people would feel strongly about these changes and would insist that they lose certain level of control over training and molding their players. However looking at it from the realism aspect, we feel the new interface makes it more like managing actual training instead of balancing sliders in search of some perfect combination.

It's been dumbed down for casual users. I wish you'd just come out and say it as opposed to lies about 'realism'. Teams train together. Sometimes. Mostly for tactical reasons. The rest of the time they are working in drills and specialist training for their position. Keepers don't do shooting training. Target men don't do high tempo cardio work to improve their stamina like a wing-back would. Someone who isn't taking penalties isn't going to practice them. The idea that people don't train individually is completely wrong.

This instalment looks like it'll be the last version of FM that isn't designed to cater for casual idiots. What next? SI will force the DOF to take complete control over transfers and contracts?

I don't 'insist' I'm losing control, I am losing control.

That is never a good thing.

The idea that 'realism' should be a goal in and of itself is hardly applicable. This is a game. The most realistic way would be that 99.99999% of people playing the game would never get to manage a Conference division team, let alone Manchester United or Spain. But without that there is no game.

This is a disgraceful change and one that comes in a module that didn't need anything except minor changes, especially when so much of the game (transfers, squad building AI, boardroom idiocy, contract signings, the match engine) need a lot more work.

When SI introduce these shameful casual friendly noob mechanics, they should be keeping the older more intelligent and in-depth options for people who don't want their game dumbed down.

[Kaiser_Tottenham]

This was the main design point of the training revamp this year. Teams train together and whilst for some drills they are split into sub-groups based on the position they are expected to play, at the end of the day the training is not about having 25 players doing individually tailored drills alone at the training ground, its about the team training together (either in one group or a few different groups).

The way training works in relation to player progression and the coaching duties is pretty much the same under the hood, however there have been some changes to accommodate things like focusing a player on a role instead of just one attribute and the new team level focuses and intensities.

We were well aware of the fact that some people would feel strongly about these changes and would insist that they lose certain level of control over training and molding their players. However looking at it from the realism aspect, we feel the new interface makes it more like managing actual training instead of balancing sliders in search of some perfect combination.

If SI wish to make the game more close to the realism, we should've training sessions & groups. Not all things individualy.

I can see your response as a confirmation of the training system changed, so i can't mix up fitnes, tactics, Techinque, Defending & Attacking in the way we want ?

[Russianbear]

This was the main design point of the training revamp this year. Teams train together and whilst for some drills they are split into sub-groups based on the position they are expected to play, at the end of the day the training is not about having 25 players doing individually tailored drills alone at the training ground, its about the team training together (either in one group or a few different groups).

The way training works in relation to player progression and the coaching duties is pretty much the same under the hood, however there have been some changes to accommodate things like focusing a player on a role instead of just one attribute and the new team level focuses and intensities.

We were well aware of the fact that some people would feel strongly about these changes and would insist that they lose certain level of control over training and molding their players. However looking at it from the realism aspect, we feel the new interface makes it more like managing actual training instead of balancing sliders in search of some perfect combination.

Absolutely, well said. And I think if implemented correctly there is a huge difference between "dumbing" the system down and making the system more initiative. It's counter productive to cling to older systems that are a simply perceived to be better because they're familiar and you've figured them out, in all likely hood, a few iterations of FM down the line they may start to be seen as archaic.

SI has a difficult job trying to appease stratified audience base. The balance between casual and hardcore is bridged with initiative systems like this one. So great work so far SI, can't wait to get my hands on the game.

[chob]

I like the look of this, it means I might actually pay more attention to training as before you could still be successful without changing anything.

[davidbowie]

Absolutely, well said. And I think if implemented correctly there is a huge difference between "dumbing" the system down and making the system more initiative. It's counter productive to cling to older systems that are a simply perceived to be better because they're familiar and you've figured them out, in all likely hood, a few iterations of FM down the line they may start to be seen as archaic.

SI has a difficult job trying to appease stratified audience base. The balance between casual and hardcore is bridged with initiative systems like this one. So great work so far SI, can't wait to get my hands on the game.

How was the old method non-intuitive? You created training schedules based on what attributes you wanted your player to train in. You didn't need a dumb down idiot friendly drop-down box saying "ROLE POACHER" you created one yourself by giving your player high shooting, tactics etc etc. If you weren't smart enough to do that then you could stick to the in-built roles and you would suffer from training that isn't quite what you should be doing.

Easy solution: Leave the new training method to the noob friendly casual mode, and leave the existing method in place for people who don't want a dumbed down game.

In my above mentioned "CB/ST" player (there are players like this that exist on their own in the lower leagues) I looked at the "Roles" that FM13 will 'focus' on.

None of the Defensive "Roles" will include any shooting training, because of none of the roles see shooting as important for any of them.

None of the Striker "Roles" will include proper defensive training because even a Defensive Striker won't train defending much.

This is a horrible change and rips control away from the user.

[Ackter]

They aren't cheaty or exploity at all.

You could say it's micromanaging, arguably more than even top clubs do, but there was no cheating or exploiting available.

You could make them cheaty/exploity simply because of the extent to which you could change the players. I could take an average striker and make him world class by sacrificing his non-striker attributes. Give me a striker with 14 finishing but no PA left and I'll give him back to you with 20 finishing.

[Smurf]

I think you'll be able to retrain a CB as a Striker - I don't think that has changed. Probably by putting the CB in with the ST training, then select what he should work on... Heading Shooting etc.

[grep]

I was used to move the slider close to High regarding training, am I now obliged to choose from Average and High with no notches in between ?

[bluey1905]

As a casual idiot, I quite like the look of this.

[wally13]

As a casual idiot, I quite like the look of this.

Someones favorite word at moment

[milnerpoint]

You could make them cheaty/exploity simply because of the extent to which you could change the players. I could take an average striker and make him world class by sacrificing his non-striker attributes. Give me a striker with 14 finishing but no PA left and I'll give him back to you with 20 finishing.

Exactly, you could re-distribute PA/CA to make any average player brilliant if you knew how, in its current set up it is very exploity.

I really dont see why people need to insult those that will enjoy this way of working more.

[Os]

No one is an idiot or a cheat,

Simply it seems that people who engaged in the micro management of the game including training don't like these changes and those that did'nt bother with the training seem to welcome these changes.

Maybe they could have left it as an option like the tactics creator and the classic tactics. We could have had a training creator and classic training.

[hugo_rune]

They aren't cheaty or exploity at all.

You could say it's micromanaging, arguably more than even top clubs do, but there was no cheating or exploiting available.

That's true. A lot of people - myself included - didn't use them though, because even though it would make a difference to players, it wasn't clear precisely how you would set them to get a desired effect. You either had to spend a lot of time experimenting, or study the posts of people who had done that themselves.

With the new version, it looks like you don't have to do that. You won't need to know the arcane secrets to get the most of your players. I wouldn't say that means it has been dumbed down, on the contrary. The accessibility of the new interface is going to engage more players with the process, and that's going to make them think more about the players, the team they're trying to build and what football they're going to play.

If some players think the challenge from the game has been removed because of that, I'd argue that on the contrary, the challenge of FM was never meant to be about knowing certain formulae to get optimum performances from your players vs the game engine. The challenge should be trying to succeed (or survive) versus an AI that is competitive, efficient, and even surprising. That's an ideal, and we're not there, but I'm hoping that we'll get ever closer, as the interface becomes more intuitive and the AI becomes, we always hope, smarter.

[Os]

This game is'nt hard enough already, I apologise that I've played all through the series but other top games don't get dumbed down for newbies.

I'll wait for the demo and the full game, however I fear the challange is being removed for veteran players and that I find sad and a little short sighted.

[Menion]

Dumbed down? You seriously believe a list of around 8 sliders that you move up and down, had any form of complexity to them? I always found the sliders to be a dumbed down version of training.

We have been given a snippet of what the training schedules will look like. It would be incredibly premature to critise a new system that you have not only seen part of its use but have also not even used it.

In that instance the player would probably be on defensive training with personal training on shooting. Plus, the ball playing centre back will no doubt have some attacking training.

[Menion]

This game is'nt hard enough already, I apologise that I've played all through the series but other top games don't get dumbed down for newbies.

I'll wait for the demo and the full game, however I fear the challange is being removed for veteran players and that I find sad and a little short sighted.

Really? You haven't played any games lately and felt they have been slightly dumbed down? Dragon Age 2, Skryim, Mass Effect 3, MW3, etc. All games I've played recently that have felt "dumbed down".

I would argue that the game is more challenging now as you can't easily turn players into uber players for their set position.

[SmurfDude]

How was the old method non-intuitive? You created training schedules based on what attributes you wanted your player to train in. You didn't need a dumb down idiot friendly drop-down box saying "ROLE POACHER" you created one yourself by giving your player high shooting, tactics etc etc. If you weren't smart enough to do that then you could stick to the in-built roles and you would suffer from training that isn't quite what you should be doing.

Easy solution: Leave the new training method to the noob friendly casual mode, and leave the existing method in place for people who don't want a dumbed down game.

In my above mentioned "CB/ST" player (there are players like this that exist on their own in the lower leagues) I looked at the "Roles" that FM13 will 'focus' on.

None of the Defensive "Roles" will include any shooting training, because of none of the roles see shooting as important for any of them.

None of the Striker "Roles" will include proper defensive training because even a Defensive Striker won't train defending much.

This is a horrible change and rips control away from the user.

Will you stop using condescending phrases such as "noob friendly" and "idiot proof", it doesn't help your argument. I welcome the changes not because I'm too stupid to understand sliders, but because the new training system looks more intuitive/enjoyable to use, and it'll probably require less time to set up. I just can't be bothered with the micromanagement and faffing about with trying to find the right combination of slider positions, it doesn't help me feel immersed in the game at all.

[Os]

Really? You haven't played any games lately and felt they have been slightly dumbed down? Dragon Age 2, Skryim, Mass Effect 3, MW3, etc. All games I've played recently that have felt "dumbed down".

I would argue that the game is more challenging now as you can't easily turn players into uber players for their set position.

Are these games you refer to better for it?

I actually enjoy coming on the forums reading different players theories about tactics and training,

its a major positive that there are few excact sciences to a game especially on a computer game.

[Menion]

I welcome the changes not because I'm too stupid to understand sliders, but because the new training system looks more intuitive/enjoyable to use

Exactly this.

[Os]

Like I said earlier, why can't they leave a choice as they did with the tactics creator?

[spankie]

That's true. A lot of people - myself included - didn't use them though, because even though it would make a difference to players, it wasn't clear precisely how you would set them to get a desired effect. You either had to spend a lot of time experimenting, or study the posts of people who had done that themselves.

With the new version, it looks like you don't have to do that. You won't need to know the arcane secrets to get the most of your players. I wouldn't say that means it has been dumbed down, on the contrary. The accessibility of the new interface is going to engage more players with the process, and that's going to make them think more about the players, the team they're trying to build and what football they're going to play.

If some players think the challenge from the game has been removed because of that, I'd argue that on the contrary, the challenge of FM was never meant to be about knowing certain formulae to get optimum performances from your players vs the game engine. The challenge should be trying to succeed (or survive) versus an AI that is competitive, efficient, and even surprising. That's an ideal, and we're not there, but I'm hoping that we'll get ever closer, as the interface becomes more intuitive and the AI becomes, we always hope, smarter.

I've highlighted that as with this training the AI gets the same advantages as we do from training. With the previous system we would get the benefit from great training schedules but the AI would be stuck with the default training schedules.

So in proportion our players would improve more and in a better way then the AI players. Hence making things a little easier for us.

[Menion]

Are these games you refer to better for it?

I actually enjoy coming on the forums reading different players theories about tactics and training,

its a major positive that there are few excact sciences to a game especially on a computer game.

True, they're not better. I don't believe that FM is being "dumbed down", it's being made more realistic. Currently. you can grab a handful of regens and make them world beaters in a season or 2, eclipsing the current rising stars. That is what "dumbing down" is. The new system will add more realism to the game and more all round growth to players.

[Svenc]

I don't get what exploiting the current training set-up is about, unless we're talking training setups tested long-term via FMRTE. Surely "key attributes" may be "key attributes" for a reason. But they're more a general idea in what area of the game a player lining up in a particular position should be most proficient. As ultimately it depends not only on the position you line him up, but on what you actually want that player to do. A physically strong striker halfway elegant in tackling and general level of aggressiveness can cause more trouble when chasing the ball up-field and hassling an opponent in its own half already. A central defender good on the ball can deliver more through balls than a limited one. And so on.

As such, every "secondary attribute" sacrificed in favor of a primary attribute comes with a trade-off - depending on what you want the player to do. His overall level of stats will stay the same. At least that's how it should be - in theory. After all, CA/PA are and have never been the be end all things concering FM and its engine.

[Menion]

I don't get what exploiting the current training set-up is about, unless we're talking training setups tested long-term via FMRTE. Surely "key attributes" may be "key attributes" for a reason. But they're more a general idea in what area of the game a player lining up on a particular position should be most proficient. As ultimately it depends not only on the position you line him up, but on what you actually want that player to do. A physically strong striker halfway elegant in tackling and general level of aggressiveness can cause more trouble when chasing the ball up-field and hassling an opponent in its own half already. A central defender good on the ball can deliver more through balls than a limited on. And so on. As such, every "secondary attribute" sacrificed in favor of a primary attribute comes with a trade-off - depending on what you want the player to do. His overall level of stats will stay the same. At least that's how it should be - in theory. After all, CA/PA are and have never been the be end all things concering FM and its engine.

It's not just that, like has already been stated, the AI does not have the option of customising schedules, they have the generic ones which are pretty basic. Your player growth will excel there's.

It is very easy to create 1 dimensial yet highly effective players with the current system.

[Ackter]

FM is not being dumbed-down, but it's definitely being made more user-friendly.

People who think that's a bad thing are the same sort of people who stop listening to bands once their friends have heard of them.

[Menion]

Like I said earlier, why can't they leave a choice as they did with the tactics creator?

The TC needed to be created because the sliders didn't easily reflect what they actually did and the impact they had on the game. The training slides are pretty simplistic. Having a training schedule creater would be quite insulting unless it was just to speed up the process.

This is not about speeding up the process, it is about making the game more realistic. Not many players have their own tailored training programme. The only players that generally have this are ones that are coming back from injury. In most cases the "tailored" programme is the same programme but includes additional training in specific ares...like they have implemented.

[Os]

FM is not being dumbed-down, but it's definitely being made more user-friendly.

People who think that's a bad thing are the same sort of people who stop listening to bands once their friends have heard of them.

So why is'nt there going to be a choice as there was with the tactics creator?

[Svenc]

It's not just that, like has already been stated, the AI does not have the option of customising schedules, they have the generic ones which are pretty basic. Your player growth will excel there's.

The AI also likely doesn't use the all-powerful "player search" - if you want, you simply need to apply a filter like "is at most 20 years" old, sort the results by value, klick on the first three dozen or so and are provided with good prospect within the space of a couple days time - in-game time, that is. But that is also still in the game.

It is very easy to create 1 dimensial yet highly effective players with the current system.

So sacrificing everything in favor of improving on primary attributes doesn't actually come with the trade-off I described, which there should be? F'r instance, if I don't want my striker to be more than someone who bangs in goals on a regular basis, but also an intelligent player who makes good decisions, is good on the ball and creative enough to create space and opportunity for others -- surely he has to suffer if I simply train what is considered by the game as his "primary attributes", such as finishing, first touch, etc.?

[hugo_rune]

So why is'nt there going to be a choice as there was with the tactics creator?

It's not always worth keeping legacy interfaces around in the game code when they have something they believe will be better.

[Menion]

The AI also likely doesn't use the all-powerful "player search" - if you want, you simply need to apply a filter like "is at most 20 years" old, sort the results by value, klick on the first three dozen or so and are provided with good prospect within the space of a couple days time - in-game time, that is. But that is also still in the game.

So sacrificing everything in favor of improving on primary attributes doesn't actually come with the trade-off I described, which there should be? F'r instance, if I don't want my striker to be more than someone who bangs in goals on a regular basis, but also an intelligent player who makes good decisions, is good on the ball and creative enough to create space and opportunity for others -- surely he has to suffer if I simply train what is considered by the game as his "primary attributes", such as finishing, first touch, etc.?

No, the AI searches by CA/PA and reputation. A lot of gamers would use those options if they could.

There should be but it's not always the case. Not all positions need you to be good in 10 attributes. You can tailor certain positions to excel in 3-4 attributes and due to the ME they will perform excellently.

[Ackter]

So why is'nt there going to be a choice as there was with the tactics creator?

I'd argue why they left the choice for the tactics creator, I'd rather have seen that removed.

[Ackter]

No, the AI searches by CA/PA and reputation. A lot of gamers would use those options if they could.

There should be but it's not always the case. Not all positions need you to be good in 10 attributes. You can tailor certain positions to excel in 3-4 attributes and due to the ME they will perform excellently.

It actually uses PPA, not PA, which is the same information we get form our scouts.

[Svenc]

There should be but it's not always the case. Not all positions need you to be good in 10 attributes. You can tailor certain positions to excel in 3-4 attributes and due to the ME they will perform excellently.

I've never been much of a power gamer trying to simply "beat the game", but like to play in a more realistic way, so I didn't notice. It's likely more down to the engine having loop holes and thus being as "beatable" as any video game AI, like by pacey players being favoried due to some issues with defending. In general, individual attributes and player strenghts are clearly being reflected in both statistics and play. The most apparent and telling ones would be the end of season statistics across each league. With my approach of playing, I would have likely never found out what those three to four attributes are that make players in certain positions perform no matter what.

[Menion]

I've never been much of a power gamer trying to simply "beat the game", but like to play in a more realistic way, so I didn't notice. It's likely more down to the engine having loop holes and thus being as "beatable" as any video game AI, like by pacey players being favoried due to some issues with defending. In general, individual attributes and player strenghts are clearly being reflected in both statistics and play. The most apparent and telling ones would be the end of season statistics across each league. With my approach of playing, I would have likely never found out what those three to four attributes are that make players in certain positions perform no matter what.

I don't exploit it myself. I find the current training system dull and simplistic. I tweak the gerenic templates and leave it at that. You're right, the ME should penalise these types of players in the more competitive leader.

[Russianbear]

How was the old method non-intuitive? You created training schedules based on what attributes you wanted your player to train in. You didn't need a dumb down idiot friendly drop-down box saying "ROLE POACHER" you created one yourself by giving your player high shooting, tactics etc etc. If you weren't smart enough to do that then you could stick to the in-built roles and you would suffer from training that isn't quite what you should be doing.

Easy solution: Leave the new training method to the noob friendly casual mode, and leave the existing method in place for people who don't want a dumbed down game.

In my above mentioned "CB/ST" player (there are players like this that exist on their own in the lower leagues) I looked at the "Roles" that FM13 will 'focus' on.

None of the Defensive "Roles" will include any shooting training, because of none of the roles see shooting as important for any of them.

None of the Striker "Roles" will include proper defensive training because even a Defensive Striker won't train defending much.

This is a horrible change and rips control away from the user.

As a casual idiot, I quite like the look of this.

This.

The game should cater for those who want a less involved experience. Not everyone enjoys your approach davidbowie and it's pretty elitist to start putting everyone who doesn't play your way into the "casual idiot" and not "smart enough" boxes. If you agree that this is a game (Games are made to be enjoyed, they are not benchmarks for intellectual ability) then why start calling people who want to play the game in a different way stupid?

With that being said, I admittedly hope that they have catered for players like yourself and that the ability to fine tune the system as you mention is included because that's how you make a great game -You make a game everyone can enjoy at any level of commitment.

[Coentrao]

This is the first time i'm reading that the previous training system was cheating or an exploit and because of attribute weighting i thought it was impossible to make such drastic changes as the ones suggested in this thread because finishing,composure,etc are more "expensive" for a striker than tackling and marking so converting those points wouldn't make such a big difference.

Anyway i actually think this system looks more realistic from what i could see from the video so i can understand why SI made this decision but to suggest that it's good that the previous system is gone because it was exploiting or cheating i just don't agree.

Oh and the casual vs hardcore battle is typical from MMO's, never thought it would happen on FM too

[hursty2]

The argument that we'd never get to manage Man Utd etc. is such an old, lame excuse to 'show up' people asking for realism.

We know that but it doesn't mean that the rest of the game can't be made as realistic as possible.

[Ackter]

It's not cheating or an exploit, but it's easy to make it become so once you work out how it works.

To bring finishing from 14 to 20 you'd need to sacrifice a lot, but what use is tackling, marking, positioning etc to a striker? You'd end up with those attributes as 1s or 2s.

[Coentrao]

It's not cheating or an exploit, but it's easy to make it become so once you work out how it works.

To bring finishing from 14 to 20 you'd need to sacrifice a lot, but what use is tackling, marking, positioning etc to a striker? You'd end up with those attributes as 1s or 2s.

No use at all, i'd like to see how much is needed to sacrifice to reach that point, that assuming the initial defensive attributes of the striker are high enough to make a difference, pretty much everything else is needed for a striker, unless it's a pure poacher then maybe you could sacrifice passing as well.

But i've never actually tried that and you apparently have, so you should have a better idea of how powerful it can be.

[Ackter]

I never worked out the exact sacrifice ratios, but most strikers have defensive attributes around the 6-9 mark and you can sacrifice all of them. You can also sacrifice set pieces (you only really need one good set piece man and a backup or two).

Coincidentally, poacher is the easiest style of striker to aim for with it.

[Svenc]

I never worked out the exact sacrifice ratios, but most strikers have defensive attributes around the 6-9 mark and you can sacrifice all of them. You can also sacrifice set pieces (you only really need one good set piece man and a backup or two).

Coincidentally, poacher is the easiest style of striker to aim for with it.

If that's all there is to it, I don't see how that is an exploit, it is a natural, however one-sided way of doing things. I put limited ressources into those areas for my strikers as well but didn't know you can pretty much "sacrifice" so many points in favor of so many points of another area of play. The only way it could be considered an exploit is when there isn't a trade-off, i.e. if you told a striker with no defensive prowess whatsoever to hassle the opponent or reclaim the ball early and he still comes out causing trouble deep within the opponent's half. And if the AI can't cope with this by employing similar strategies, which likely it can't, fair enough.

[grep]

I was used to move the slider close to High regarding training, am I now obliged to choose from Average and High with no notches in between ?

anyone pls ?

[wally13]

anyone pls ?

There will be the usual choices i'd of thought low average high etc

[Govnar1]

I never worked out the exact sacrifice ratios, but most strikers have defensive attributes around the 6-9 mark and you can sacrifice all of them. You can also sacrifice set pieces (you only really need one good set piece man and a backup or two).

Coincidentally, poacher is the easiest style of striker to aim for with it.

Players definitely needed just few exceptionally good attributes to dominate and it's really easy to transfer ability from one attribute group into another. This is best player in Europe in my current save (pace, determination, technique and first touch):

My best defender (pace, jumping and determination):

[Veggeh]

The change was always going to be controversial, and I can see why. While change can be good, uprooting something that has been a part of something for so long can be unsettling. That said, I'm sitting on the fence right now. I like the concept behind the change. I like the philosophy it runs on. However, as numerous others have pointed out, I fear for the loss of control for those players who like to tweak little things, rather than being contrained to presets, especially since we don't yet know how good those presets will turn out to be.

Though, all things considering, I revile the use of the words "casual" and "hardcore" in these situations. The definitions of those words in gaming is actually rather loose, and they do nothing except stir up argument and segregate players. For what some people in this topic are using as a definition of "casual", I would disagree. I used the sliders, but I would say that this is necessarily a dumbing down of the system for this group of players. More a user-friendly approach for new players who now don't have to go into individual training and feel somewhat intimidated by a load of sliders, unsure how to properly use them, and may even become somewhat put off by the game altogether.

Claiming that you are above such people does not give you any right to then insult them and any changes to products that might cater for them (and others too). Especially when you have not had a proper chance to get your hands on the system and give it a proper good go. As such, I will be reserving my judgment on the changes until I've had a chance to try them out. But I really hate to see this sort of attitude from people, especially from a community I see as more mature than most.

[Bootador]

It's been dumbed down for casual users. I wish you'd just come out and say it as opposed to lies about 'realism'. Teams train together. Sometimes. Mostly for tactical reasons. The rest of the time they are working in drills and specialist training for their position. Keepers don't do shooting training. Target men don't do high tempo cardio work to improve their stamina like a wing-back would. Someone who isn't taking penalties isn't going to practice them. The idea that people don't train individually is completely wrong.

From the training sessions I've seen in person it's you that is wrong, no offence.

Training is never individual (goalkeepers apart and returnin from injury apart) outside of perhaps tiny bits of a session, and this is covered by the the individual focus.

The new system makes sense perfectly, you have an overall theme for a session (defensive, attacking, tactics) and players play in certain role - hence enhancing there attributes within that role.

[davidbowie]

From the training sessions I've seen in person it's you that is wrong, no offence

Then you haven't seen enough. Players aren't always training in a group either. Or in public. Or you are misinterpreting my view of the training. The entire group trains most of the time together, but certain groups do more of one type than others.

More a user-friendly approach for new players who now don't have to go into individual training and feel somewhat intimidated by a load of sliders, unsure how to properly use them, and may even become somewhat put off by the game altogether.

Maybe they should try reading about the game then. They've only had about 5 years to get used to the current training style. It's not hard. It just takes more effort than Joe Casual is willing to put in. And if he isn't willing why should he get rewarded for that by getting a dumbed down "Idiots Guide To Training" module?

What next, they get SI giving them a dumbed down transfer mode where they only pay half the price, or they get a free goal every game?

The changes are clear to see in the video, they show a complete lack of choice and depth, they specifically show that you can only give someone a 'role' which may or may not match what you actually want (I convert shorter ball playing CB's to DM's all the time, based on what I saw in the video this won't be possible now), and it means you can't give the player an attribute focus at the same time. And if you pick attribute then what? You make the player do a generic training session? So a player like Messi ends up doing the same training as Crouch because they are both forwards?

The world of sports science is becoming incredibly micromanaged for players (I follow sport in Australia, where Sports Science is at the forefront across multiple codes and clubs and discuss this with head medical/fitness staff from several teams), and this new casual dumbed down style is actually going backwards compared to reality. In reality teams are micromanaging individuals to a very large extent.

While the tactical and team base of Football means be necessity that teams do train together, the idea that everyone just plays 11 v 11 all day every day for their training is so wrong and goes away from the real way teams like AC Milan and dozens of professional sporting clubs in Australia do it. I'm sure others with more knowledge could point to more clubs in Europe doing it as well. I'm certain US clubs in various sports do as well.

It also takes player control away in favour of a dumbed down casual module, without giving the user the choice to continue with the existing perfectly acceptable and working module.

This was a bad choice and seemingly exists only to make it easier for casual people who don't actually care about learning about the module to play, while screwing it for people who actually put effort in to learn how to use the game.

[Bababui]

This was the main design point of the training revamp this year. Teams train together and whilst for some drills they are split into sub-groups based on the position they are expected to play, at the end of the day the training is not about having 25 players doing individually tailored drills alone at the training ground, its about the team training together (either in one group or a few different groups).

The way training works in relation to player progression and the coaching duties is pretty much the same under the hood, however there have been some changes to accommodate things like focusing a player on a role instead of just one attribute and the new team level focuses and intensities.

We were well aware of the fact that some people would feel strongly about these changes and would insist that they lose certain level of control over training and molding their players. However looking at it from the realism aspect, we feel the new interface makes it more like managing actual training instead of balancing sliders in search of some perfect combination.

The SI philosophy really should be more user-friendly. The human should be able to choose which training model they want for their game. Its not good business to force things down our throat. Since the underlying training model is still there..let us decide which we prefer.

I completely agree with that. Thanks for clearing it up.

I have a feeling you would agree with SI if they said the sun revolves around the earth.

[Bababui]

True, they're not better. I don't believe that FM is being "dumbed down", it's being made more realistic. Currently. you can grab a handful of regens and make them world beaters in a season or 2, eclipsing the current rising stars. That is what "dumbing down" is. The new system will add more realism to the game and more all round growth to players.

This is utter nonsense. All regens are limited in their development by their PA.