A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[Keyzer Soze]

Actually from a commercial point of view Sega should pay Steam for use of the activation service, the service provider would have to assume that a number of people registering to activate a title will not venture anywhere near their download store so they are just taking up space with no potential revenue.

On the other hand, with this activation system, steam are getting a bunch of new clients. For each 100 new costumers, 5 of them leave steam online, and because of that buy one or two game from them... as i said... it's business!

[Keyzer Soze]

Didn't SI or someone from Sega say already that no money was exchanged between Steam?

Ok, no money envolved! But with this partnership beetween SEGA/SI/Steam, SEGA and SI gets a protection system to their game, and Steam gets a bunch of new costumers! It's a win-win situation.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I think we're all adults and intelligent and we know why steam cant be delete after the activation is complete: Commercial Business!

Of course that steam system must have to keep on your computer, as it can get at medium or long term more customers, sell more games. its business! are the rules of the game!

Nothing is made without money in this world, i'm pretty sure that SI/SEGA receives money from steam for using them to activate the game. It makes sence that things happen like that. Steam needs to attract more costumers, SI/SEGA need money to continue making FM.

I really dont think the SI/SEGA are cheating FM users with this. They ate defending their business, as we all do.

They will only be cheating, if they didn't tell us, and you would only found out that you need steam to activate the game, when you arrive home and install the game. But that's not the case. They inform us, so we have all the info we need to decide if we want to buy or not.

So far there is no mention of 'Steam activation through the internet' on the FM12 pre-order page over at SEGA!

[lukino99]

I'll ask again

- Will people know at the time of purchase that the game can only be activated online?

- If so, is it stated in big bold letters on the front of the cover or is it written in font 2 at the back?

Thanks

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Actually from a commercial point of view Sega should pay Steam for use of the activation service, the service provider would have to assume that a number of people registering to activate a title will not venture anywhere near their download store so they are just taking up space with no potential revenue.

Which might lead some people to wonder, what's in it for Steam?

Didn't SI or someone from Sega say already that no money was exchanged between Steam?

That was in response to someone saying that SEGA must be receiving money from Steam.

[Keyzer Soze]

So far there is no mention of 'Steam activation through the internet' on the FM12 pre-order page over at SEGA!

Please read Miles posts in this thread!

[Bertie BG]

I'll ask again

- Will people know at the time of purchase that the game can only be activated online?

- If so, is it stated in big bold letters on the front of the cover or is it written in font 2 at the back?

Thanks

Miles already answered this in his big post on the subject a couple of pages back.

The answer is yes they will because it's being placed on the front of the box (between where the PEGI and SI/SEGA logos are) that it requires activation online.

[FrazT]

Yeah, sesame seed buns are much better.

Lets keep this thread sensible please

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Please read Miles posts in this thread!

Yeah, thanks for that.

Do you mean this:

You've asked how we're letting people know about this. Well, apart from the forum thread, there was a mailshot on Friday to hundreds of thousands of our registered customers to let them know about it, as well as telling them about the blogs and the release date. Since then, pre-orders have gone up massively with our pre-order position at Amazon in the UK (for example) going up from the mid 20's into the top 10, peaking at 5 and currently at 7, which is way higher than we normally are at this time of year. There will also be, front of pack in between the SI logo and the age rating, in big letters, the words "requires internet connection to activate", which was insisted upon by me for us to be able to go ahead with this. I will be chasing SEGA first thing on Monday to ensure that all retailers who have packshots online switch to the final packshot, rather than the one they are currently using.

[eddymunster]

Miles already answered this in his big post on the subject a couple of pages back.

The answer is yes they will because it's being placed on the front of the box (between where the PEGI and SI/SEGA logos are) that it requires activation online.

I think this should be expanded to say "Requires online activation via third party software".

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Miles already answered this in his big post on the subject a couple of pages back.

The answer is yes they will because it's being placed on the front of the box (between where the PEGI and SI/SEGA logos are) that it requires activation online.

Will it also show that Steam will have to be installed and must be running in order to play the game?

EDIT: well done eddy.

[The Welsh Lad]

Didn't SI or someone from Sega say already that no money was exchanged between Steam?

Yes they did, but (only surmising not fact) a deal could have been brokered with them. Now people know that this is going to happen, how many will have decided to just download it through Steam instead of getting a boxed copy, becuase I was toying with the idea. o it could increase sales through Steam so increasing Steam take, and a figure might be (again not fact) brokered on the amount of people that activate Boxed games. So money would transfer until after the release date.

EDIT: This is pure fabrication on my part, please don't take it has gospel

[Keyzer Soze]

Which might lead some people to wonder, what's in it for Steam?

Are you kidding! Can you imagine the amount of new costumers steam will get? Basically the whole FM community! It's a great deal for them. Of course not everybody will start buying games from steam, but even if a little minority start, it will be a great deal, dont you think?

[eddymunster]

He has the choice not to buy it, same as he does with any product. They aren't forcing anything on anybody. Don't like it? Don't buy it.

I understand that, but to continue with the food analogies it's like me buying say....... a Fry's Chocolate Cream (best ever:D) and the seller saying that in order to get my chocolate I must eat a spoon full of Marmite 1st.

The problem is I really want FM2012 (Fry's Chocolate Cream)

But I really don't want Steam (marmite)

And the only place I can get the one I want, insist and are therefore forcing me (the customer) to have the one I don't.

No more food analogies :o

[OlieIsArsenal]

Can I ask what you reason is for not wanting Steam installed after activation?

For the simple fact its not needed, takes up resources (little or not) and would allow middle ground for people who are so anti-steam they wont buy the game. that is the simple reason for it and if i could choose, id go with that option too.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Are you kidding! Can you imagine the amount of new costumers steam will get? Basically the whole FM community! It's a great deal for them. Of course not everybody will start buying games from steam, but even if a little minority start, it will be a great deal, dont you think?

Yes, I was kidding.

[eddymunster]

Which might lead some people to wonder, what's in it for Steam?

Steam get the benefit of traffic through their site. How many times have you gone into a shop to get something specific and bought something else as well while you're there?

Edit: Just seen the above post.

[Keyzer Soze]

Will it also show that Steam will have to be installed and must be running in order to play the game?

I dont know, but i think it should! Or at least in the system requirements should refer to steam. (same way it refers to directx i believe).

And i also think that the steam instalation file should be provided in the disk game.

But i'm sure that pretty soon SI will provide a lot more information on this.

[OlieIsArsenal]

Steam get the benefit of traffic through their site. How many times have you gone into a shop to get something specific and bought something else as well while you're there?

I know this wasn't asked of me, but today i went into Tesco's to get a drink, ended up coming out of that with the drink and 4 pot noodles for £2. so it happens.

[milnerpoint]

I dont know, but i think it should! Or at least in the system requirements should refer to steam. (same way it refers to directx i believe).

And i also think that the steam instalation file should be provided in the disk game.

But i'm sure that pretty soon SI will provide a lot more information on this.

i would imagine both points will be true, steam will def be mentioned, the steam logo will no doubt be on the packaging somewhere as well, and any steam game i have disk bought had the steam client built into it.

[edwingray]

Miles already answered this in his big post on the subject a couple of pages back.

The answer is yes they will because it's being placed on the front of the box (between where the PEGI and SI/SEGA logos are) that it requires activation online.

Any answer from SEGA on the Germany/Steam issue?

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I posted these questions this morning, but my post may have been lost in the noise.

Would someone from SI please tell me precisely what customer data SI and/or Sega will share with Steam?

Would someone from SI please tell me, as Steam has to be running to play FM12 is it collecting any data in offline mode?

When it becomes necessary to switch Steam to online mode, to download patches for example, what data will be collected by Steam themselves?

Cheers

xxx

Any chance of a response?

[greenone]

I posted these questions this morning, but my post may have been lost in the noise.

Any chance of a response?

You would be better asking steam as its their wares that will be doing the spying.

[Guest]

Any answer from SEGA on the Germany/Steam issue?

I would imagine that it will take a few days, Sega will have to make sure the information is 100% before allowing any public comment on what countries would be listed as unavailable for FM to be activate via Steam.

Imagine the uproar if a country was not listed but should have been.

[milnerpoint]

I posted these questions this morning, but my post may have been lost in the noise.

Any chance of a response?

ah google, it can be your friend,

http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html

http://forums.steamgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1657227&page=2

basically yes steam collects when your offline, and yes it send this when you go back online.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

ah google, it can be your friend,

http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html

http://forums.steamgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1657227&page=2

basically yes steam collects when your offline, and yes it send this when you go back online.

Thanks, google is my 'friend', and for your answer to my last two questions.

However, I would like my first question to be answered by SI/Sega.

[Sir_Liam]

I play FM on a PC which isn't connected to the internet, so I'm disappointed by this decision. I also still have the memory of activating FM2009 which took me 2 days.

I have no experience of using Steam myself. I know someone who did try to activate FM via Steam once, who gave up after problems, and just installed it without using Steam.

I also don't like the idea of Steam pointlessly running in the background whilst I play. I think SI/Sega are punishing the genuine consumers more than the pirates here.

[JamboJapp]

Can this game be played with the internet off?? Sorry I don't have time to read 24 pages!

[themadsheep2001]

Can this game be played with the internet off?? Sorry I don't have time to read 24 pages!

yes it can, you just need the internet for the initial activation

[The Welsh Lad]

Can this game be played with the internet off?? Sorry I don't have time to read 24 pages!

Once you activate your game you can set up Steam to go into offline mode and can turn off your internet but you have to keep Steam Application Open

[themadsheep2001]

Any answer from SEGA on the Germany/Steam issue?

this was posted by another user:

Posted by lf_my_dream View Post

I'm from Germany and had no problems activating my imported boxed copy of FM11 on steam last year, even though it's not available on our regional steam store. You can install from the disc as well, so steam only downloads the patches.

hope that helps

[JamboJapp]

Cheers.....bad news in my opinion steam has brought me nothing but problems but so goes it.

[Mojby]

Hi, Yes Steam will need to remain installed. However this offers great benefits such as top quality download speeds, automatic updates & achievements to track you progress

Great - i have to install 3rd party software to play a game I have bought legally - bleedin marvelous.

I have never used steam and now to play the new game i have to install it to register it - I know that i just have to set 'offline' to play but like so many people here - why should I be forced to install this just to play a computer game! This is a bad decision SEGA and will annoy so many people!

[Stonedroses]

Cheers.....bad news in my opinion steam has brought me nothing but problems but so goes it.

Yeah!

In my case it would be:

Cheers.....bad news in my opinion steam has brought me nothing but so goes it

[Mojby]

Great - i have to install 3rd party software to play a game I have bought legally - bleedin marvelous.

I have never used steam and now to play the new game i have to install it to register it - I know that i just have to set 'offline' to play but like so many people here - why should I be forced to install this just to play a computer game! This is a bad decision SEGA and will annoy so many people!

One other thing to add - after all the furore from past versions I cannot see why SEGA are still persisting down this route. It makes no sense and continues to irk so many people.

[The Welsh Lad]

Not that I want this debate to go on and on and on and on, around in circles, then on and on again. Its unfourtunate that in order for SEGA and SI to protect their product they feel that this is the best way in order to do it. SI and SEGA know that this will not totally eradicate piracy. They also sympathyise with those people who are going to encounter problems. This has now become on of the requirements to play the game, the same when graphics in the game improve the minimum spec increases and then people have to make a decision upgrade their graphic or not play. If this action just stops a small percentage in illegally obtaining the game then it is going in the right direction. Yes this has annoyed alot of people and SEGA and SI know this already becuase of the amount of posts in this thread.

There are other 3rd party software that you install to be able to play the game like DirectX, I know it is not has some people put it obtrusive because you don't see if. You still require it, like you now require Steam.

If piracy was never tackled then, many business' would be going under or Titles stop being made take EHM because the amount of people illegally obtaining it meant it wasn't making enough money to keep it going. Do you want to see that happen to FM, I know I don't, so if it means having another box in my launch tray so be it. I'd rather see that than not see the FM logo on my desktop.

Some people say its all about money, well yes it is in a way its business and its what makes the world go round. The more money SI make the bigger the budgets to go towards the development of FM, so we the customers will benefit from a better product. So I say get behind this and see where it can take FM to next.

[greenone]

I wish more devolpers would follow this:

http://www.paradoxplaza.com/thewesterfront/2010/9/the-drm-dilemma

[data6930]

That is an absolute disgrace they should be making that crystal clear!! What a shambles this is turning out to be, I dreaded the day SI got involved with SEGA they have taken away the importance of listening to the community on here, SI would never had done such things before they got involved with SEGA.

The very fact that the steam activation hasn't been mentioned on the SEGA pre-order page speaks volumes for SEGA.

SI you should insist that these details are added to the pre-order website. So many people are going to buy this game and get shafted once they realise they have to activate and run steam.

The relationship between SI and it's customers is getting worse by the minute.

So far there is no mention of 'Steam activation through the internet' on the FM12 pre-order page over at SEGA!

[data6930]

Funnily enough there is no mention of steam/activation on pre-order pages on Amazon or Play either!!!

[Lord Rowell]

Miles, much of what you have said in the posts you've made here has been commented on already, so I'm going to focus on some sections that I don't think have had enough attention.

There are people claiming on here that the reason for doing this is just to kill the second hand market. That's simply not true - it didn't even come into the conversation when discussing protection for this year. According to the licensing agreement for the game, whether you've read it or not, it's against the license to re-sell the game. As it is for the vast majority of PC games. The vast majority of retailers who deal in second hand games do not trade in PC games, whatever the protection is. And the replayability factor of FM is huge, so second hand isn't something that has affected us in a major way at all.

See, this is the kind of argument that rubs people up the wrong way from the start. You know perfectly well there is a 2nd hand market for games on car boot stalls, eBay and, yes, on the high street. I can tell you at least two stores in my town centre that sell used PC Games. Whether this market is strictly legal is, frankly, moot, in the eyes of most people here. To us, it is absurd that we can't sell on something we've purchased, that we don't actually own it. Now you may reply that is the law of the land, I would reply that it is frankly disgraceful that this law stands and it is disgraceful that you cite it as something reasonable in your supportive arguments of the Steam activation measure.

One big thing that was taken into account when looking at the various systems available was how many people, given the choice with FM11 of whether to install the game via Steam or without Steam, chose to install via Steam. The results surprised me, with the majority of people deciding to install through Steam.

To say this doesn't address the arguments being made. I'm sure you're right. It really isn't the point. As I've said elsewhere in this and the other (closed) thread, I don't have a problem, personally, with Steam. I've used it myself to download games. Its just that I have a massive problem being forced to use it and also that I can listen to the specific difficulties and issues that others have. So, for you to boast that the majority choose to install via Steam is neither here nor there as it doesn't recognise the needs or views of others. Of course, what those two sentences intend to do, IMO, is portray a situation whereby the complainants feel they are in an unworthy minority. You are playing politics, Miles.

There've been questions about what I think of the reaction, given that it's 17 pages so far. Well, obviously I'm disappointed when anyone says they aren't going to buy our next release, and I doubt there's anything that I'll be saying here that will appease those people. But the reality is that those being negative in the 17 pages are mainly the same people - about 50 in total. The negative reaction from a few people is very similar to that when Total War announced that they were going down this route. And when Civ went down this route. I'm sure both Creative Assembly and Firaxis were just as disappointed to be losing some long term customers as I am - but that doesn't change the decision that has been made, nor change my belief that from the options we had, it's the best one for all.

Again, you're playing politics, trying to spin this so that it sounds like a vocal minority who are making lots of noise and drowning out the majority. Fact is now that its 24 pages and growing. The whole language you use is belittling, "those being negative", "the same people", "a few people" and so on. It is very disappointing that you are trying to dismiss the views of your online community in this fashion. Whether its 50, 100, 150, 200 and so on, this is your community and the objections here are being raised by the majority of the community participating in this discussion. Dismiss us at your peril, as I will comment later.

People have also asked "what about those who don't have an internet connection". When we had activation for FM2009 which was done both online and via telephone, less than 4% of people, globally, chose to use the telephone route. Some of these people had a net connection, but didn't want to authenticate that way (as per the huge threads at that time). So, again whilst it's disappointing that some people genuinely don't have a net connection and might miss out, this was taken into account with the overall decision, [b[and there wasn't an option presented to me by SEGA this year that didn't involve purely online activation.[/b]

Did you ask for one? Did you stand your ground? Or have SI gotten so deep under the duvet with SEGA that they have no power to negotiate for their customers?

There has also been talk about other PC titles on here that will get your money instead. I've seen the following being mentioned so far (apologies if I've missed any) - Call of Duty, Battlefield, Fifa Manager, FIFA, Batman & Rage. Battlefield, FIFA Manager & FIFA on PC will all require EA's online system, called Origin, and for you to register with them. Rage is Steamworks, as we are. Call of Duty uses Activision's new online system. I do not know about Batman's authentication method, or whether it has one.

Vast majority of posts and posters in opposition to this haven't said this at all. But, a common theme I've seen here is "this is the way its going" kind of thing. Whether it is going this way isn't really the moral issue. The moral issue is, is it right? Just because other companies are doing it doesn't morally legitimise SI/SEGA.

You've asked how we're letting people know about this. Well, apart from the forum thread, there was a mailshot on Friday to hundreds of thousands of our registered customers to let them know about it, as well as telling them about the blogs and the release date. Since then, pre-orders have gone up massively with our pre-order position at Amazon in the UK (for example) going up from the mid 20's into the top 10, peaking at 5 and currently at 7, which is way higher than we normally are at this time of year. There will also be, front of pack in between the SI logo and the age rating, in big letters, the words "requires internet connection to activate", which was insisted upon by me for us to be able to go ahead with this. I will be chasing SEGA first thing on Monday to ensure that all retailers who have packshots online switch to the final packshot, rather than the one they are currently using.

Spin spin spin about how well you're doing. Has no real purpose in terms of this discussion, except to try and paint the objectors into the naughty corner. As for your insistence on "requires internet connection to activate", well many congratulations on insisting on something that the ASA would surely have pulled SI/SEGA up on anyway. Really, you don't deserve any credit for this but you're trying to take credit as though you were some champion of the consumer!

I'll continue to read this thread, but I won't be posting again because, as predicted by others, it's just the same arguments going round and round, with the same people making them. I'll leave SEGA to answer the other points.

As I've already stated, I'm very disappointed that some of you are saying you won't be playing the game this year because you don't want to use Steam. That is, of course, your choice as a consumer, and one we have to live with based on the decisions made.

Very disappointed you're not going to participate further in this. You're the figurehead of SI, the main man that people associate FM with nowadays (Collyer brothers aside). You're the man who did "The Miles Files", "The Che Guevara stuff", the podcasts, the blogs, the YouTube videos. You are the front man when it comes to selling us the latest version of the game and yet, you decide, its ok to just walk away from your angry online community because you find the arguments repetitious and boring. What you should be doing is taking note, and going back to SEGA to sort this out.

Yes, not to buy FM12 is my choice as a consumer, the same choice that many are making here. Some have commented that this is the loss of a handful of sales but I think it is much more than that.

Your online community, whether active or passive, contributes a large portion of.

- add-ons to the FM series

- Tactics and Training guides

- Ideas, very important this one. As has been said here by moderators / staff, most of the new ideas for future incarnations of FM come from your community

- Your database, alongside the match engine the biggest asset of the game. Researched by volunteers

I think you've lost an awful lot of goodwill with this Steam activation decision. You're not just going to lose sales, you're at risk of losing all the other stuff that makes FM a great game, a fans game. I think you've lost sight of how important your fans are in providing you with the free goodwilll that you need.

As I said earlier, dismiss us at your peril.

Very, very disappointed, in YOU, Miles.

[themadsheep2001]

I think its far too early to say he's lost a lot of goodwill. Lets actually see what happens with the rollout before starting to make any conclusions

[Jibby123]

ah google, it can be your friend,

http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html

http://forums.steamgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1657227&page=2

basically yes steam collects when your offline, and yes it send this when you go back online.

That's freaking disgusting.

"that's the way it is online these days" doesn't cut it. Bill Hicks on suits in marketing nailed it. Worthless leeches.

[The Welsh Lad]

I think its far too early to say he's lost a lot of goodwill. Lets actually see what happens with the rollout before starting to make any conclusions

Same here.

[Kriss]

Whole walls of text won't change anything, for FM12 it's steam or nothing, after that depends on the results of this year.

I can't help being amazed at the rhetoric though, you'd think they'd reintroduced slavery and declared war on the Amazonian Indians, it's a bloody game for Christ's sake:D

[MeekoHFC]

lol Kriss this thread is starting to quiet down now. I wonder how many of the 'I wont buy FM12' will be praising the blog today

I won't be buying FM12 and thought the blog was ****.

[Kriss]

I won't be buying FM12 and thought the blog was ****.

That's your choice of course but I doubt you'll be raising questions in parliament about it or setting up on Hyde Park Corner, your attitude is the correct one, "don't like the conditions so won't buy it"

Hopefully you'll change your mind but I'd tend to agree that the blogs won't be a deciding factor:)

[zandor]

:applause: :applause:

Great Post

[mantralux]

Whole walls of text won't change anything

So people who aren't happy with the decision should just stay quiet then?

[themadsheep2001]

So people who aren't happy with the decision should just stay quiet then?

the same points have been made by the same people on both sides. Repeatedly. It's still not going to change anything for FM12, and its the outcome of the rollout for FM12 that will have the biggest impact on any future releases. Just treading the same tired ground otherwise

[MeekoHFC]

lol Kriss this thread is starting to quiet down now. I wonder how many of the 'I wont buy FM12' will be praising the blog today

That's your choice of course but I doubt you'll be raising questions in parliament about it or setting up on Hyde Park Corner, your attitude is the correct one, "don't like the conditions so won't buy it"

Hopefully you'll change your mind but I'd tend to agree that the blogs won't be a deciding factor:)

The blogs didn't decide whether I would purchase the game or not, forcing Steam down my PC's throat was the nail in the coffin for me. Infact, I don't think I've played a game on FM since about January anyway. I would have bought this game regardless just out of habit, but FM lost the fun factor a long time ago. Forcing Steam on me has just tipped me over the edge and I won't be touching or buying an FM again till that's gone at least.