Official Blog Feedback - youth & newgens

[digsy11]

Tell me the 800 updates an I'll give you the answer.

[Coentrao]

This is fantastic news, both the ability to scrap the young team if you are on the lower league and that you can pick which newgens you want in your squad on your off-season.

[Keyzer Soze]

just one question, we must take control of the youth squad in order to have the choice to pick wich newgens will be on the team? Or even if we let that to the assist manager we will have the final word?

[Smurf]

Just ain't pleasing people. They could do 8000 updates/new features and some people still wouldn't be impressed or feel it adds anything.

[Lazaru5]

Personally I'm loving the changes, but I'm left with lots more questions...

Before that though, I think people need to realise just what an "Academy" is when it's related to football.

An academy is a place of academic achievement, or to put it in simple terms... it's a SCHOOL! Kids that go to a youth academy go there for their schooling.. In football the academy will have emphasis on football techniques and theories for sure but the students are still expected to study the usual subjects like maths, languages, history, geography, etc. I seem to recall that this year the academic results of football academia were amongst the highest in the country so the students are obviously not just "going through the motions" until they become highly paid professional footballers.

When you have a club that doesn't have an academy, you still have a youth system of sorts and even a youth squad, the difference is...

In a youth academy a club will sign multiple players at a very young age and teach them vital skills required to play at that club's standard.

(taken from here). They get schooled like ordinary children, but they also get top quality football coaching with the above purpose in mind. Between the ages of 9 and 11 my nephew had trials with Man Utd, Leeds, Huddersfield and a couple of other clubs with the intention of going to their academies at 11 instead of mainstream high school. As it is, he actually changed sports and has since represented the county at youth level in that instead, go figure..

So my questions.. I've recently started an experimental save with Barcelona and am really pleased at the quality of the youngsters within the club's system. My U19's has 9 players with a PA of 130 or greater which is high enough for them to be BBVA squad players/B team stars with many of them high enough potential to be stars in their own right. The B team has a further 10 players who have >130 potential which makes a total of 19 players who aren't even in the first team setup that could, and probably will, be part of the first-team in the future. Add those players to the first team and there is enough at the club to play for ten seasons or more at a similar level to the current squad, and that's if I sign nobody!!! Even the remaining youngsters are all of a high enough potential to play regularly for the B team so there's no real need for either team to buy anybody for some considerable time..

Will FM12's revamped youth system reflect real-life in this way? Will the "intake" be of sufficient standard to ensure that the Barcelona legacy of breeding superstars will continue long into a save? (Or West Ham's, or Ajax, Sporting, et al..?). I don't want to be looking at 16 PA 90's next season when the youngster's average PA is currently >115, you know?

Will the kids we have on trial automatically accept a standard youth deal or will there be those who know they're worth more straight away that would demand a higher deal? Are we going to get kids who know they're the next Messi who, basically, say if you don't give me X I'll go elsewhere, maybe even with a pushy agent already?

Which brings me on to the kids at other clubs... presumably all the clubs in a country will have their own youth intake on trial at the same time, yes? Would we, like has been suggested, be able to send our best scout along to them and poach some of the better ones (assuming that they would join our club, of course)?

And then what happens to those players who aren't given a youth contract at the club they've trialled with? Do they get trials elsewhere? Is there a second stage to it or will those who get rejected just disappear into the ether?

Assuming that we can poach kids form other clubs, will there be a transfer tribunal of sorts to set transfer fees and future incentives like there would be IRL or are we free to nick any kid we like regardless?

Like I said, I love the changes, but it's left me with more questions than answers

[SazoJohnno]

Great work, loving the ideas of youth things.

[themadsheep2001]

Just ain't pleasing people. They could do 8000 updates/new features and some people still wouldn't be impressed or feel it adds anything.

I thought the big complaint before was that there were too many new features...

The changes to the youth sound good, interested to see how it actually plays out

[hugo_rune]

Glad to hear the youth system has been revamped and looking forward to seeing how it plays out. I could never make it a meaningful part of development in FM2010 or 2011 - there was only the occasional backup player I decided to take on, once in a blue moon - so hopefully I can work out a way to make it useful in the next release!

One thing I'd like to see would be more of the numerous 'junk' players at the bigger clubs, who end up playing down three or more divisions, actually coming through in the teams where they're going to potentially be first team players. Instead of what we have now - League One and Two being filled with ex-EPL youth rejects and the Conference being filled with ex-Championship youth rejects, and so on. Don't know if the 'revolution' will change things to this extent, but it sure would be wonderful.

[aderow]

I'm terrified what english players are gonna look like....

[dazbowski]

As was said already, not all players will be from that mold of traits. But a majority will. The likes of Spain they do have a short passing game, so it would make sense. But every now and then you'll get a Xabi Alonso, which is probably the only long-range passer (or a small %) of players in the Spain squad that are good at that.

But that's the national squad, you look through the top league and more importantly the second tier and do you really think that a high % of player are technically gifted and play short passing football?

I'll give you some examples of whati mean with the 2 teams I support.

Man Utd British players with flair - Ashley Young, Rooney, Tom Cleverley Phil Jones/Rio Ferdinand/Chris Smalling (for centre backs these all possess good flair) and of course Ryan Giggs.

Tranmere Rovers with flair and all English - Robinson, McGurk and Devaney and just left us Dale Jennings.

Now that's a fair proportion of these teams English/British players which I would guess the new national traits would eliminate because we're supposed not to get too many flair players.

[themadsheep2001]

But that's the national squad, you look through the top league and more importantly the second tier and do you really think that a high % of player are technically gifted and play short passing football?

I'll give you some examples of whati mean with the 2 teams I support.

Man Utd British players with flair - Ashley Young, Rooney, Tom Cleverley Phil Jones/Rio Ferdinand/Chris Smalling (for centre backs these all possess good flair) and of course Ryan Giggs.

Tranmere Rovers with flair and all English - Robinson, McGurk and Devaney and just left us Dale Jennings.

Now that's a fair proportion of these teams English/British players which I would guess the new national traits would eliminate because we're supposed not to get too many flair players.

Why would it eliminate it? trait doesnt mean every single player will be like that

[dazbowski]

Why would it eliminate it? trait doesnt mean every single player will be like that

I don't think it will eliminate it but it could go too far, saying flair is not a trait in an English player and hence getting one or two in a blue moon is not correct.

[donpost2]

Must say I'm feeling very underwhelmed by this years additions. Just doesn't feel there's anything substantually different to FM2011, least excited I've been for a release.

I understand and somewhat share that sentiment. But for me its the countless small changes that add up into a worthwhile update. For example, consider the news item that appears when someone offers to loan one of your players. It used to be that the message just said "Team A have offered to loan player B". Then in the next version it would additionally tell you where the player would fit in in the loanee team (ie first team etc), which was massively more useful. Then in the next version the option to reject or accept the offer was put onto the news item itself, so you didn't have to view the offer to reject or accept it etc. All those small improvements add up.

I think I remember seeing ages ago that SI keep a database of all community suggestions for improvements - which I guess is why each new version has lots of these small improvements. Good call SI

Still it would be nice to see a new feature on the scale of the addition of the tactic creator....

[themadsheep2001]

I don't think it will eliminate it but it could go too far, saying flair is not a trait in an English player and hence getting one or two in a blue moon is not correct.

But it may not go too far, as Riz already said, its not a blanket thing. Guess we'll just have to see first

[dazbowski]

But it may not go too far, as Riz already said, its not a blanket thing. Guess we'll just have to see first

Indeed we will!

[username1]

England have had quite a few flair players in my time; from memory players like Le Tissier, Gascoigne, Waddle, Hoddle, Barnes, McManaman, Beardsley, Joe Cole and as an Arsenal fan in the '80's, Rocastle and Merson. I know you could maybe argue the inclusion of some of these players, but the point is I think England does produce flair players.

I'm actually a fan of the idea of country traits, but the difficulty comes for me in that it's often cyclical rather than permanent. Like I said earlier, Brazil formerly played with wingers, but not know. For decades for example Italy had phenomenal defenders, not so now though. The players I listed for England all came through within 10 or so years of each other, but now there are hardly any flair players imo.

I think it's difficult to implement the national traits in the game, because I don't think time and fashions feature in the game world- is this right, or do things, like formations and preferred player types change as the game progresses?

[El Zar]

But that's the national squad, you look through the top league and more importantly the second tier and do you really think that a high % of player are technically gifted and play short passing football?

I'll give you some examples of whati mean with the 2 teams I support.

Man Utd British players with flair - Ashley Young, Rooney, Tom Cleverley Phil Jones/Rio Ferdinand/Chris Smalling (for centre backs these all possess good flair) and of course Ryan Giggs.

Tranmere Rovers with flair and all English - Robinson, McGurk and Devaney and just left us Dale Jennings.

Now that's a fair proportion of these teams English/British players which I would guess the new national traits would eliminate because we're supposed not to get too many flair players.

Flair is the ability to do the unexpected. The only player on that list of United players that does that is Rooney - Young does the feints that you expect from a winger. Even looking back through the history of the England team the only flair players that spring to mind are Waddle and Gazza.

[dazbowski]

Flair is the ability to do the unexpected. The only player on that list of United players that does that is Rooney - Young does the feints that you expect from a winger. Even looking back through the history of the England team the only flair players that spring to mind are Waddle and Gazza.

I'd disagree, I'd say most if not all them players have flair. Which Brazilian players now have this ability then?

[rpvw]

'Positional traits' aside, will the tactics a team uses (including those set for youth team) influence the positions of the Youth Candidates?

Will FM12's revamped youth system reflect real-life in this way? Will the "intake" be of sufficient standard to ensure that the Barcelona legacy of breeding superstars will continue long into a save? (Or West Ham's, or Ajax, Sporting, et al..?). I don't want to be looking at 16 PA 90's next season when the youngster's average PA is currently >115, you know?

The new systems sounds like a major improvement. I too am wondering if the player intake reflects a certain club's playing style. Take the 4-3-3 which seems hardcoded into Ajax's DNA (although arguably the last couple of coaches have abandoned it in favour of a 4-4-2), would this lead to a higher chance of getting 'typical Ajax wingers' in comparison to other Dutch clubs?

Also, I wonder what (if any) effect will (youth) coaches' preferences and playing styles will have on 1) the newgens that come in and 2) the way they develop, as now I have yet to see evidence suggesting any influence on these aspects at all.

[El Zar]

I'd disagree, I'd say most if not all them players have flair. Which Brazilian players now have this ability then?

Any of their front four: Neymar, Ganso, Robinho, Pato

[Shake Appeal]

Now this is genuinely exciting to me. First features I've heard about that sound worth the annual price.

[Simply... Awesome!]

Things like these are never a "blanket thing". They are called traits or templates because they are used as guidelines for the creation of newgens to model some real life tendencies. As in real life, not all players follow these tendencies so there can and will definitely be exceptions to the stereotypical players. Not all players are made from the same mold even if they come from the same nation, but in order to create order from chaos that is newgen creation, we need to have some level of traits to guide the process along

Suggestion:

Let the template be based on successful teams within the country only at the time.

It would be silly to not expect spain to produce more of "Messi" or "Xavi" or "C. Ronaldo", in the same way it would be silly to not expect English regens to look like "Rooney" or "Gerard" or "Giggs". This is not because of their nationality but because of how they play for the most successful teams of their respective country at the time.

So if a Manager takes over Sir Alex at Man Utd for example, plays a Highly Successful 3-4-3 (or some weird formation) for many years, one should expect that regens from England would have roles suitable to this formation. This is how the real world works.

As Managers change, so should the formations, and do should regens!

[The Welsh Lad]

what Riz is on about is national newgens. the fact that C. Ronaldo is Portuguese and Messi Argentinian. Whilst Messi start his carrer at Barca he was scouted in Argentina at a young age becuase of the way they play has youngsters. C. Ronaldo sarted out in Sporting and Ronney at Everton. Since the emergence of the spainish national team and barcelona with their style of play. Youngsters in this country are encouraged to play the same way. Unlike years ago where they were forced to concentrate on Physique and Strenght. Even though the youngsters in this country are starting to be told to play a different way becuase of the Spanish it is not to do with the way top clubs play or what formation they use dictates what new youngsters will do.

The manager of what ever club the youngster is at dictates the way the youngster plays and develops them thats how it happens in th real world. According to your suggestion, low league teams in the conference that concentrate on defending on a 5-3-2 for arguments sake will have to change to what was it 3-4-3 because its new youth players are going to play like that becuase thats what Man Utd, Man City play etc. So no matter what the managers prefered style of play is, he has to follow the top teams because thats how the youngster are designed.

[whilewolf]

Moderate excitement from me. It has potential but if we get to pick which of twenty youth players we want but they all have PA 100 while I'm already managing in the championship its not much of a choice is it.

Now if there was twice as many newgens as retires generated and the AI had to make choices, and the AI could look at attribute distribution and discard the freaks that are thrown up. The midget CBs, the FB who cant run etc now that would be something to get excited about.

[Cider Ed]

Will you be able to see other teams newgens before they offer them contracts, perhaps being able to poach them ala Fabregas, Pique, Pogba etc.

[whilewolf]

do we even know if the AI teams get to select their newgens and discard the rest?

[The Welsh Lad]

do we even know if the AI teams get to select their newgens and discard the rest?

I would have thought so but maybe not like humans unless the AI team building and all that has been improved

[däkkä]

Wow I am really impressed with this. I have been a bit sceptical about FM12 but this news alone has left me smiling... and craving for more. A lot of stuff that I've wanted to see for many versions. Small stuff but really important. The game is striving for realism after all.

Especially this stuff is pleasing to see:

The same can also be said of a players mental attributes. Players in Brazil, due to the way they grow up playing the game, are more likely to have flair. Players in Spain are more likely to play a short passing game. All of these traits are now reflected better in game.

Always annoyed me that Brazil's top players in 2020 were (A)MRLs and the NT would still play 4-2-2-2. Ok, that's more up to rigid AI managing, but it's still unrealistic that those players chose to play as wingers and not be nudged to wing-backs or strikers in their youth.

There’s also been a big improvement in the way names are generated for all youth players, particularly in countries where there are lots of regions and names tend to be region specific.

Maybe a chance to see a Catalan name come up Barca ranks? :o

[seanydude]

Can other teams nick your players whilst they are on trial?

[TGP]

As an American i find the "traits" development worrying. One of the biggest negatives that the game has exhibited in recent years is a complete inability to project the growth of soccer in the states. The growth of the game in terms of popularity and skill just doesnt happen. The result is that in long term games the quality of american players actually decreases such that there just arent players the level of holden, dempsey, donovan being produced. there should be an increase in the talent level not a decline. if current stereotypes about american players are locked in from the start there wont be demspey or holden like players. instead there will likely be more Michael Bradley like players who run around with high work rate and no technique. also, there were not nearly enough dual nationality new gens being produced. there are a lot of german american and mexican american kids that are being forced to choose one country or the other to represent. chandler, isaac acuna, joe corona, jermaine jones are just some examples.

finally, has the mls academy system been implemented?

[athos]

I'd like to know the answer to the American question too. Will MLS clubs have academies or rely on the draft?

[master_wu]

Did SI notice '500 Star Program'?

'500 Star Program' is the Chinese Football Association over the next five years, 500 young people sending power to the European Footballer of the post-graduate study

http://www.f-paper.com/?i784438-Liuyang-Star-Program-500-first-team-sailing-team-went-to-C-24-players-home

http://www.f-paper.com/?i886947-Photo:-China-Liuyang-24-overall-football-teenager-again-%22armed-with%22-C-Luo-home

[mojojojo101]

There’s also been a big improvement in the way names are generated for all youth players, particularly in countries where there are lots of regions and names tend to be region specific.

This is a really good change (hopefully) as in my 2020 game there are 4 members of the Brazil first 11 all called Da Silva, some more variation would be more than welcome.

It's nice to see national 'traits' aswell as this is something that I think will add to the game. However I hope that there maybe some way to change and modify those traits through the actions of the national teams and/or the big clubs in the countries leagues otherwise I fear that the game, especially at international level, may become quite stale with countries like Spain and Germany dominating with thier higher technical ability over other nations.

[damo666]

just one question, we must take control of the youth squad in order to have the choice to pick wich newgens will be on the team? Or even if we let that to the assist manager we will have the final word?

the way i read it you must take control of them to choose which one get the trials, if not the assman does and you wont have a choice.

[Keyzer Soze]

the way i read it you must take control of them to choose which one get the trials, if not the assman does and you wont have a choice.

Thats too bad! I would like to have the choice to not see the youth games and control the tactics etc etc, but get access to the reports and have the final word on wich youth players should be on the team, or wich players i'll get a trial opportunity.

[Riz Remes]

just one question, we must take control of the youth squad in order to have the choice to pick wich newgens will be on the team? Or even if we let that to the assist manager we will have the final word?

No, you don't need to take control of the youth squad in order to select which of the youth candidates get offered a proper youth contract.

[Smurf]

The way it works is that you'll get a separate squad added at the end of the season, a youth squad.

The players will be separate from the U18s.

You'll then get to access and pick the tactics that both use.

You can still get your ass man to take charge of the game and view the result.

The fact is that the Youth squad will only be trialists.

If you decide to take them into the U18s then you have to offer them a contract - at which point they'll from the Youth Squad to the U18s. Anyone not offered a contract will go back on the market.

It was all explained earlier.

[Keyzer Soze]

Thaks Riz Remes and Eugene Tyson.

This is great!

[?]

One thing about this that needs addressing is not so much national traits but rather the attributes newgens in certain positions get. For instance, its really rare to find a fast winger, or an AMC with good technique and passing. Actually high pace ratings in young regens is very rare and its not something that should necessarily develop.

Along with this mismatch in attributes for positions is the rarity of players with half positions coming through. There are very rarely any AMC\FW (Rooney, Aguero style) or Wing Backs,(every full back now) AML, AMR or AMC players generated (or players comfortable playing in any of those roles - David Silva style). 90% of players out there dont fit the template of ST, CM or LB/RB anymore, yet thats all we see with regens. Particularly there needs to be more high technique AMC's generated as they are more prevelent in todays game.

I know we can train them there but players should be born in to fully fledged positions instead of being locked into non-descript static roles - its unrealistic. Also, there is not much point in training them sometimes because despite the positional rating they very raraly have the required attributes to play there.

[Smurf]

Well Chris Smalling was brought up through the ranks as DC but he's found a new role in a RB position.

It's fine for new players to have a role when being developed, like they do in FM. I think it's important for the manager to say "Yeh he'd be better at AMC or AMR or AML or ST" etc.

Thiery Henry started out as a winger, then went on to be one of the best strikers in the Prem.

Alan Smith went from being a Striker to a Midfielder (which essentially killed his career )

Some players start as Defenders and end up playing as Strikers.

So in FM12 you might get a really good Wing Back - but if you look at their stats and their finishing is high, their positioning etc. you might think, well I'll train this guy as a Striker. They might have fast pace, good crossing, poor tackling, well train them as a winger.

I can see this new system as being a challenge as to getting the best out of the players you have coming through.

[The Welsh Lad]

One thing about this that needs addressing is not so much national traits but rather the attributes newgens in certain positions get. For instance, its really rare to find a fast winger, or an AMC with good technique and passing. Actually high pace ratings in young regens is very rare and its not something that should necessarily develop.

Along with this mismatch in attributes for positions is the rarity of players with half positions coming through. There are very rarely any AMC\FW (Rooney, Aguero style) or Wing Backs,(every full back now) AML, AMR or AMC players generated (or players comfortable playing in any of those roles - David Silva style). 90% of players out there dont fit the template of ST, CM or LB/RB anymore, yet thats all we see with regens. Particularly there needs to be more high technique AMC's generated as they are more prevelent in todays game.

I know we can train them there but players should be born in to fully fledged positions instead of being locked into non-descript static roles - its unrealistic. Also, there is not much point in training them sometimes because despite the positional rating they very raraly have the required attributes to play there.

I have highlighted this paragraph because what happens in the game is the same has real life, Rooney started out has a ST and was trained to be a AMC, Technique is Trainable I have a regen with 16 technique come through the ranks not every AMC in the real life started with a high level of technical ability. Coaches would see that a player has ok technique and helps develop that through training. Players are born into Set roles and then developed to play in others do you honestly think Dani Alves when he was a little boy in the sticks of Brazil said I know I want to be a D/WB/M/AMR or do you think he said I want to be a DR and his manager noticed his attacking ability and then trained him to play higher and high up the pitch.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Well Chris Smalling was brought up through the ranks as DC but he's found a new role in a RB position.

It's fine for new players to have a role when being developed, like they do in FM. I think it's important for the manager to say "Yeh he'd be better at AMC or AMR or AML or ST" etc.

Thiery Henry started out as a winger, then went on to be one of the best strikers in the Prem.

Alan Smith went from being a Striker to a Midfielder (which essentially killed his career )

Some players start as Defenders and end up playing as Strikers.

So in FM12 you might get a really good Wing Back - but if you look at their stats and their finishing is high, their positioning etc. you might think, well I'll train this guy as a Striker. They might have fast pace, good crossing, poor tackling, well train them as a winger.

I can see this new system as being a challenge as to getting the best out of the players you have coming through.

How good would Thiery Henry have been if he was made to forego 10% of his training throughout his career? The impact positional training has on general training should be restricted to areas less important to the new position.

How can training Chris Smalling as right back cause him to lose pace for example? This could happen in FM.

I think there should be a different way of "paying" for this new position, make it take longer for players with low adaptability, for example, or lock out certain categories/attributes from the drop in general training, also I would like to see every player retain any position gained.

[?]

I have highlighted this paragraph because what happens in the game is the same has real life, Rooney started out has a ST and was trained to be a AMC, Technique is Trainable I have a regen with 16 technique come through the ranks not every AMC in the real life started with a high level of technical ability. Coaches would see that a player has ok technique and helps develop that through training. Players are born into Set roles and then developed to play in others do you honestly think Dani Alves when he was a little boy in the sticks of Brazil said I know I want to be a D/WB/M/AMR or do you think he said I want to be a DR and his manager noticed his attacking ability and then trained him to play higher and high up the pitch.

OK, lets put this another way (cause you are dead wrong).

When we talk about a striker, we mean someone who leads the line, has good finishing, and rarely drops deep (Hernandez, Shearer, Ferdinand, etc etc). Rooney, Aguero, Tevez, Totti, Villa, etc are not and have never been ST in the FM sense of the word. It was not a case of someone training them at 16 to drop deep and become a deep lying foward, it comes naturally. Its a position as valid as ST, CM or whatever else you want to say.

I seen Rooney at 14 for instance and he played exactly as he does now. Have a look at the Euro U-17's and tell me players in that dont have positions largely defined? We cant tell a Samir Nasri from a Claude Makalele?? Its kind of like saying that players dont know if they are offensive or defensive by the age of 16

16 is the age of most FM regens so if half positions are defined by then IRL then why not in the game? Even easier for you would be to do a search in FM for all non-regen 16 year olds and see what kind of positions they have - any that have been researched peoperly will have half positions.

Dani Alves -> Actually started as a an AMR and was converted into a DR\WBR ie: attacking right back as per Brazilian tradition.

[x42bn6]

So in FM12 you might get a really good Wing Back - but if you look at their stats and their finishing is high, their positioning etc. you might think, well I'll train this guy as a Striker. They might have fast pace, good crossing, poor tackling, well train them as a winger.

The argument is that the youth coaches should have seen this beforehand. As RBKalle has said many times, a very fast youth player will likely be a winger - you will generally not find extremely quick defensive midfielders as youth players, since they would be likely placed on the wing. If not, then there had better be a good reason (i.e. he's a brilliant thinker and his qualities are better in the middle), or your youth team coaches are absolute idiots.

[Smurf]

The arguments in England for wing backs alone being young and fast, Ashley Cole, Glen Johnston, Kieran Gibbs, Gareth Bale and a few others spring to mind.

It was Arsene Wenger who turned Henry into a Striker. I don't recall anything about coaches being involved in that decision, but then again I don't know the inner workings of Arsenal or what transpired between the coaching staff and management.

I would like more feedback from the youth coaches and their input on how a player is developing, that's a good idea.

I'm already doing that retraining thing in FM11 and I find it very useful. Especially when you're on a shoe-string budget and you're lacking a role in the team. I retrain players into different positions by checking their stats and pushing them into those roles.

Like in my current Leeds game, I have Phil Jones. He's now trained to play, DL, DC, DR, DM, ML, MC, MR - he's a brilliant utility player and he's the captain. I can play him anywhere in the 8 positions, and it's extremely useful as I am rotating players based on Condition.

[The Welsh Lad]

OK, lets put this another way (cause you are dead wrong).

When we talk about a striker, we mean someone who leads the line, has good finishing, and rarely drops deep (Hernandez, Shearer, Ferdinand, etc etc). Rooney, Aguero, Tevez, Totti, Villa, etc are not and have never been ST in the FM sense of the word. It was not a case of someone training them at 16 to drop deep and become a deep lying foward, it comes naturally. Its a position as valid as ST, CM or whatever else you want to say.

I seen Rooney at 14 for instance and he played exactly as he does now. Have a look at the Euro U-17's and tell me players in that dont have positions largely defined? We cant tell a Samir Nasri from a Claude Makalele?? Its kind of like saying that players dont know if they are offensive or defensive by the age of 16

16 is the age of most FM regens so if half positions are defined by then IRL then why not in the game? Even easier for you would be to do a search in FM for all non-regen 16 year olds and see what kind of positions they have - any that have been researched peoperly will have half positions.

Dani Alves -> Actually started as a an AMR and was converted into a DR\WBR ie: attacking right back as per Brazilian tradition.

OK so in FM sense Rooney is not an out and out striker in FM Sense in FM when he was at Everton he was set has a ST only in later series has he developed to accomodate an AMC role. I agree that most of this positional work is done before the age of 16 but to say has you said in your first post players are born mutli-positional shall we say I still think is off the mark.

I coach my locals U14s team we have players that come in and when you ask them what positon to the play some will say Centre Midfield, so when watching them in training matches, We will notice wether they are good at tackling and naturaly don't push foward (PPM), or they may not be so good at tackling and always like to push on(PPM). So has coaches we can take one to the said and say right I'm going to train you to become a natural DMC (Makalele) and take the other one to the side and say I'm going to train you to become an AMC (Nasri).

This applies with Roooney when asked has a youngster what position do you play he would have said ST not 'well you see I can play as a striker and an atticking midfielder and if needed I can learn to become a winger' has coaches you can see if a ST has a tendancy to come deep to get the ball (PPM) has good passing ability and good vision, so to use this effectivlely you train him to play an AMC role.

I think there are not enough 14 year old regens coming into the team so you will have more time to develop these positions before you have to start thinking of loaning them out, so you will have 4 years instead of 2.

OK I got Alves' starting position wrong but it was just for an example.

[zecic]

first i would like to say that this improvements sound great, but I'm not optimistic that this will apply to smaller countries.

for an example, i allways play with the same teams from serbia, romania, greece and belarus and each game is at least 7 seasons long.

and reason for me to stop playing each of those saves are that after 5-7 season, with my youth system is State of the art, with youth excellent coaches , excellent youth recruitment and still getting rubbish players with only maybe 1 player at average level as are youth players at the start of the game.

i really hope that things are gonna change from FM2012 and that we, player from smaller country, can enjoy the game with teams from our home countries!

cheers!

[Lazaru5]

Personally I'm loving the changes, but I'm left with lots more questions...

Before that though, I think people need to realise just what an "Academy" is when it's related to football.

An academy is a place of academic achievement, or to put it in simple terms... it's a SCHOOL! Kids that go to a youth academy go there for their schooling.. In football the academy will have emphasis on football techniques and theories for sure but the students are still expected to study the usual subjects like maths, languages, history, geography, etc. I seem to recall that this year the academic results of football academia were amongst the highest in the country so the students are obviously not just "going through the motions" until they become highly paid professional footballers.

When you have a club that doesn't have an academy, you still have a youth system of sorts and even a youth squad, the difference is...

(taken from here). They get schooled like ordinary children, but they also get top quality football coaching with the above purpose in mind. Between the ages of 9 and 11 my nephew had trials with Man Utd, Leeds, Huddersfield and a couple of other clubs with the intention of going to their academies at 11 instead of mainstream high school. As it is, he actually changed sports and has since represented the county at youth level in that instead, go figure..

So my questions.. I've recently started an experimental save with Barcelona and am really pleased at the quality of the youngsters within the club's system. My U19's has 9 players with a PA of 130 or greater which is high enough for them to be BBVA squad players/B team stars with many of them high enough potential to be stars in their own right. The B team has a further 10 players who have >130 potential which makes a total of 19 players who aren't even in the first team setup that could, and probably will, be part of the first-team in the future. Add those players to the first team and there is enough at the club to play for ten seasons or more at a similar level to the current squad, and that's if I sign nobody!!! Even the remaining youngsters are all of a high enough potential to play regularly for the B team so there's no real need for either team to buy anybody for some considerable time..

Will FM12's revamped youth system reflect real-life in this way? Will the "intake" be of sufficient standard to ensure that the Barcelona legacy of breeding superstars will continue long into a save? (Or West Ham's, or Ajax, Sporting, et al..?). I don't want to be looking at 16 PA 90's next season when the youngster's average PA is currently >115, you know?

Will the kids we have on trial automatically accept a standard youth deal or will there be those who know they're worth more straight away that would demand a higher deal? Are we going to get kids who know they're the next Messi who, basically, say if you don't give me X I'll go elsewhere, maybe even with a pushy agent already?

Which brings me on to the kids at other clubs... presumably all the clubs in a country will have their own youth intake on trial at the same time, yes? Would we, like has been suggested, be able to send our best scout along to them and poach some of the better ones (assuming that they would join our club, of course)?

And then what happens to those players who aren't given a youth contract at the club they've trialled with? Do they get trials elsewhere? Is there a second stage to it or will those who get rejected just disappear into the ether?

Assuming that we can poach kids form other clubs, will there be a transfer tribunal of sorts to set transfer fees and future incentives like there would be IRL or are we free to nick any kid we like regardless?

Like I said, I love the changes, but it's left me with more questions than answers

I'd really like to know the answers to these questions, SI, anybody?

[x42bn6]

The arguments in England for wing backs alone being young and fast, Ashley Cole, Glen Johnston, Kieran Gibbs, Gareth Bale and a few others spring to mind.

Not all fast players become wingers, but it is likely that it happens - how many wingers in their prime are slow?

Gibbs in particular was a defensive midfielder/left-winger as a youngster, whilst Bale has played more on the wing for Spurs in the last few seasons.

[Smurf]

David Beckham played right midfield, not the fastest on the block. Probably the most famous example.

Yes that's true. As I say if I find a player in my youth team that's got the stats to backup being a winger rather than wing back, then I train them for that position.

Gibbs was a winger, then turned out he was good at tackling, and plays a wing back role now.

And Bale started as a left back, and has moved to midfield, as he is a good dribbler, fast and good crossing.

I'm just saying, because a player comes into the game as a regen as a certain position, doesn't mean he has to stay there. You can retrain them to positions that suit their stats.