Falling out of love with the game

[AcidBurn]

Didn't Keegan's Newcastle bottle it after his rant? And Liverpool after Rafa's facts rant?

Those are the only two I can think of. Team talks do seem to be at least as important as tactics, are you playing one of the older FM's Suzie?

[Kenco]

I think one of the things with peoples love/hate for the game is down to their own personal 'life' situation at any point in time - FM PC/Mac is rather a 'time hog' and if you are limited on time and try to rush playing it then (personally speaking) its harder to do well ... and thus less enjoyable.

Its partially for this reason that we've been developing the Football Manager Handheld series of games, the complexity of these is lighter than FM PC and they're aimed at recreating the speed and style of gameplay found in our earlier titles and thus are arguably more suited for people who don't have time to immerse themselves in the depth of the PC game ..... if you haven't tried them then consider giving them a whirl?

Disclaimer - FMH is very much 'my baby' so I tend to pimp it out at the slightest opportunity

Is there a chance of FMH being made available for PC users, perhaps as FM Lite or something similar? Personally I like the full game, but I am sure there are others out there who might like the FMH version but don't want to buy a handheld device to play it on.

[ewok01]

That my friend is an excellent suggestion, good idea.

Is there a chance of FMH being made available for PC users, perhaps as FM Lite or something similar? Personally I like the full game, but I am sure there are others out there who might like the FMH version but don't want to buy a handheld device to play it on.

[Suzie MUFC]

Didn't Keegan's Newcastle bottle it after his rant? And Liverpool after Rafa's facts rant?

Those are the only two I can think of. Team talks do seem to be at least as important as tactics, are you playing one of the older FM's Suzie?

Sorry, I meant to connect "extreme cases" to the press conferences as well.

No, been playing FM11. The problem is it holds me more than previous versions, but at the same time it frustrates me and I feel like completely giving up because it's so much of a slog.

For instance, I managed to complete a season (a rarity for me considering the slow pace of FM11), and it was a relief to actually get there, rather than looking forward. Then I found a string of bugs with player and manager awards, and then the save crashed and became corrupted before the next season could begin. Just summed it all up, really. Haven't started a new save since (that was a couple of weeks ago).

[AcidBurn]

Sorry, I meant to connect "extreme cases" to the press conferences as well.

No, been playing FM11. The problem is it holds me more than previous versions, but at the same time it frustrates me and I feel like completely giving up because it's so much of a slog.

For instance, I managed to complete a season (a rarity for me considering the slow pace of FM11), and it was a relief to actually get there, rather than looking forward. Then I found a string of bugs with player and manager awards, and then the save crashed and became corrupted before the next season could begin. Just summed it all up, really. Haven't started a new save since (that was a couple of weeks ago).

I understand that bit totally. On FM10 and FM09 I had a few long term saves three of them reaching the late 2020's. On FM11 I have had one that I got as far in. This is mainly due to the game annoying me with stupid defending and players running away from the ball more than anything.

[Suzie MUFC]

I understand that bit totally. On FM10 and FM09 I had a few long term saves three of them reaching the late 2020's. On FM11 I have had one that I got as far in. This is mainly due to the game annoying me with stupid defending and players running away from the ball more than anything.

That's my main problem with the FM11 match engine, right there. Ripped my hair out with that one.

Edit: Going to try and start a save on FM10, and not do press conferences this time. FM11's going on the shelf for now. *grumble*

[AcidBurn]

[video=youtube;7ZQge1UW9As]

This annoyed me the most along with wide players refusing to cross despite having cross often. I nearly broke something when the above goal happened.

[jackripper]

[video=youtube;7ZQge1UW9As]

This annoyed me the most along with wide players refusing to cross despite having cross often. I nearly broke something when the above goal happened.

hahahha that is brilliant fair play. Should of given your keeper that new lucrative contract lol

[AcidBurn]

lol, I sold him instead.

[jackripper]

Ruthless...everyone makes mistakes. did you win that match btw?

[AcidBurn]

Yeah 3-1 I think it's been a while since I was on that save, to be fair he wanted to leave a couple of weeks later and I signed a much better player.

[x42bn6]

He's offering a different option which is fair enough.

I don't think it's "fair enough" to say "give us more $$$$$".

If you buy a car off me and it turns out to be rubbish, I don't say, "well why don't you buy this other car? It's better!"

[themadsheep2001]

I don't think it's "fair enough" to say "give us more $$$$$".

If you buy a car off me and it turns out to be rubbish, I don't say, "well why don't you buy this other car? It's better!"

He offered another option, and its interested a few people above. Cant see why there is an issue with that

Anyway...

Suzie MUFC

No, been playing FM11. The problem is it holds me more than previous versions, but at the same time it frustrates me and I feel like completely giving up because it's so much of a slog.

Pretty much how i feel about it, i get so frustrated with things like how the AI rebuilds it sqaud, or full back just not crossing the ball in. And tutoring has become the death of me, really has

[Whirlwind]

So Crouchy, I remember another thread where we talked about something like this... I stopped playing FM10 before FM11 was released, and have been able to resist getting FM11. Told myself to skip a version and maybe attack FM12 with more enthusiasm... Has been about a whole year since I played any FM game... it helps that there have been other good games out to spend my time on during this period. Might even "quit" FM... or just become a "social" player...

[Jimbokav1971]

I felt much the same as Crouchy, playing FM09 at about the time when FM10 was coming out.

My game stagnated and I hardly played and when I did it was more akin to pressing continue than actually putting thought or effort into anything. I eventually stopped completely for a few months and never even loaded the game back. I then driften back to it every now and again but often just played a single game and them might not return for weeks.

Eventually though I did return and keen to keep the same save, I just accepted the first job that was offered to me and it sort of gave me a new lease of life. To start off with it was all the planning of going through the new squad and deciding who had to go and who could be kept and also highlighting potential transfer targets that I could afford, (it took quite a while as I even created a completely new tactic too).

Then, as soon as I got going I was offered an Internationl job which I accepted purely to offer me something different, (I don't usually do International management).

This really kick-started my interest again and I was hooked again before taking further breaks again whenever the weather got good or for lots of other reasons though. I kept on returning this time though.

Now I can take it or leave it but the save is still moving on and I am loving it. I'm in 2039 and I don't think I have ever been this far before. I have managed 2 clubs and 4 different nations and am on the lookout now for another move, (having sort of come to a natural end with my current club).

My advice if you are sick of the game is simply don't play it and stop coming on the forums. When the new season starts, (in real life), you might get the bug again, and in the meantime you can enjoy the summer.

[naxself]

I think it's time for the game to be more customisable to appeal to a wider audience of player. Tickboxes for inclusion/removal of features when starting a game, which isn't at all uncommon in a lot of other games, would be the biggest step in the right direction.

Where is the benefit of railroading the customer?

This is exactly what I logged to write tonight (well, that and see if I could find some rumors for FM12). It is vitally important that SI implement customization for ALL non-core features (sorry, kids, press conferences and agents are non-essential; the latter are the main reason why I never play FM11 despite buying it the day after I defended my dissertation as a reward to myself). But I digress. The point I'm trying to make is that customization is vital for FM12. We, as consumers (and fanatically loyal consumers at that), should be able to tweak the game without breaking it. I should be able to disable agents and other features I dislike.

As for the original post, FM11 made me feel the same way. I fell out of love with the entire series because it was so frustrating. Eventually, I started playing FM10 again (mainly because I'd spent so much time editing it and creating a set-up that I love), and that rekindled some passion for the series. I just spent a week straight playing it, but now I can't bring myself to load it. I think it's because FM11 was so poor, even though it had such potential.

FM12 is a change for SI to redeem themselves. Offer increased customization (i.e., those features mentioned above, but especially agents [please, for the love of all that is good and beautiful, let me get rid of the agents]) and make the editor what it should be (i.e., allow me to edit international competitions, confederations, second nationalities, etc.). I know some people like the agents, but allow me to turn them off; as one thread mentioned elsewhere, I paid for the game, give me the options to do what I want with it.

I suppose I'm kind of rambling, but I think it's important that SI know that long-time players (I've been around since CM4) are somewhat disillusioned. I might be reading crouchaldinho wrong, but I think he wants - like I want - to be won back by the superior, awesomely fun game that we know SI can produce. So, the ball's in your court, SI: give us the rebound game we know you can.

[magic32]

I cannot play this game on my own anymore I find it boring and would rather read a book...Playing the game with a bunch of mates over a network in the other hand is the only reason why I have continued to play the game.. As I am not married or have a gf I guess it makes it easier for me to do so....When I do finally get one I guess it will be the end of FM all together..I would rather play with the cat *Wink Wink* than play with the computer!!!

[Cole]

I cannot play this game on my own anymore I find it boring and would rather read a book...Playing the game with a bunch of mates over a network in the other hand is the only reason why I have continued to play the game.. As I am not married or have a gf I guess it makes it easier for me to do so....When I do finally get one I guess it will be the end of FM all together..I would rather play with the cat *Wink Wink* than play with the computer!!!

Lol, who says it's one or the other?

[Jugster]

It was interesting for me to read this thread because I fell out of love with the game a long time ago. I had played it religiously from CM2 back in 96 when I also had the opportunity to interview the Collyers in the back garden of their Islington house for a magazine feature. I think the best version was probably CM3 Season 01/02 but by that point the game kept promising more media and player interaction, without really backing it up. The game engine started to get more random. To me, it’s player quality first and foremost, then tactics, then player motivation a long way in third. Morale started to creep in, resulting in awful battles with relegation because the “team morale” was low. Despite having a great squad and playing the right tactics, games against the top teams in the first couple of seasons in the PL were almost impossible. They had a built in advantage even with worse players. Then the match highlights engine got more and more involved, without ever making the game any better or actually giving you any real information that you didn’t know. It just made the game slower.

By CM4 I was getting disillusioned. I had been playing the game for 8 years and spent far too much of my life on it. By 2006 the game interface was atrocious – multiple confirmations and clicks to get anywhere or do anything, random game engine, it had become so slow and tedious I’d had enough. 10 years of CM/FM and it was over.

I picked up the odd copy to play on my laptop when I was away. It didn’t seem like time lost if I wasn’t at home playing the game. It didn’t really catch my imagination though. It just seemed even slower and more tedious. I even tried CM2010 rather than FM, but that was just pants.

I tried CM on my iPod, god was that a struggle. Then, when I had an iPad, I tried FM mobile. Leaner, faster, you could play through a season in a few days. It was fast and fun again, though not particularly deep or rewarding enough. Marc Vaughan has often commented that it’s a mobile version of the earlier CM games and it really is.

The desktop series stopped being what I wanted it to be five years ago. I wanted a rewarding player experience, for it to simulate life as a football manager, so there were rewards like postcards from the places you went to on European trips, trophy cabinets, real and interesting media reporting on how you were doing, photos of the stadiums and cities you went to play in, and much better player characterisation. But instead it just disappeared up its own backside.

Reading all these posts from people complaining about all the things I hated in the first place means I won’t be coming back any day soon. But, if you liked the old days, I would suggest you give FMH a try, especially if you have an iPad.

[crouchaldinho]

My suggestion would be FM07, but since I know you liked FM08, then go for it.

For me these games are old, old fashioned and with old code , but I still I much more fun with them, then newer versions, with new code and new features that give a more "realistic" air to game. I play a game for fun, if that means playing an old and bit of fantasy in the game.

Maybe I just like the old fashioned Grade. I miss the tactical arrows and the old 2D engine!

I'm with you though, this game has always been about fantasy for me, and I'm losing that at the moment.

Take press conferences, for example. In my imagination, they're fantastic and interesting. I'll be laying in bed before going to sleep, doing an imaginary conference in my head, talking about my teams chances! But then they now have an actual place in the game and they're just boring. There's too many of them, the questions are always the same, the responses are nonsensical, and they take up too much time. We didn't need the press conferences in the game, in my opinion, but just some basic interaction where we could fill in the blanks.

You know what it is for me personally: FM was best when I, as the player, had to fill in the gaps. Use my imagination to fill in what was happening instead of having it played out for me. That was the genius of the game. It was essentially a spreadsheet with a basic 2D match engine attached. The true depth was in my mind and it ruled!

I think one of the things with peoples love/hate for the game is down to their own personal 'life' situation at any point in time - FM PC/Mac is rather a 'time hog' and if you are limited on time and try to rush playing it then (personally speaking) its harder to do well ... and thus less enjoyable.

Its partially for this reason that we've been developing the Football Manager Handheld series of games, the complexity of these is lighter than FM PC and they're aimed at recreating the speed and style of gameplay found in our earlier titles and thus are arguably more suited for people who don't have time to immerse themselves in the depth of the PC game ..... if you haven't tried them then consider giving them a whirl?

Disclaimer - FMH is very much 'my baby' so I tend to pimp it out at the slightest opportunity

I like the idea of FMH actually. I've looked into it before.

Thing is, I'm not really a 'gamer'. I don't have the portable console, or whatever you call it, to play this game.

I don't think it's anything to do with lack of spare time. It's simply because since FM09, half-baked "features" have been thrown in, causing micromanagement and a slow-down in general gameplay. It isn't that we haven't got the time, it's just that we're forced to do these things out of fear of the consequences to the morale/results of the team (i.e. press conferences, agents, contracts, player interaction), when all we want to do is get to the next match. And it gets repetitive, boring, frustrating, and we end up switching off. There is nothing addictive about long, drawn out contract negotiations (which incidentally since 11.3.0 aren't nearly as negotiable as they should be, it's either accept their demands or walk away and make them angry), or being asked the same questions in a press conference every 3 days. I just end up thinking "I can't be bothered anymore". I shouldn't be feeling that way about a game.

I have to agree with you Suzie. I still have the time to put into FM, perhaps not as much as in the past, but the time isn't so much of an issue. It's more just that recently I've been bored by it. The addictive aspects such as playing the matches, signing new players, devising your tactical ideas etc., have been spoilt a little but some of the less dynamic aspects which slow down the game.

Crouchy - I think player interactions are even worse in FM11. Example:

Player: I feel I have achieved all I can at the club and want a new challenge

Me: I think the club can continue to grow and want you to be a part of that

Player: You are being unreasonable, and shouldn't keep a player who doesn't want to play for the club

Me: Okay, I've had time to think about it, and will let you leave if you want

Player: That's great, thanks. I'm really pleased with the way this chat has gone

Conversation ends.

I check his personal screen, he no longer wants to leave and is happy at the club, after I told him he can go. This makes no sense!

This has happened with more than one player.

Yes, that's what I feared. I haven't been a fan of a number of things in FM11 and the sometimes bizarre player interaction is definitely one of them.

[derrickr]

Is there a chance of FMH being made available for PC users, perhaps as FM Lite or something similar? Personally I like the full game, but I am sure there are others out there who might like the FMH version but don't want to buy a handheld device to play it on.

I also think this would be a great idea.

Either that or the other suggestion where you could choose which features you want to include via a tick box.

I play FM with my brother and another mate. On and off we have all played it since the Amiga days.

Before the network version was available, we used to meet up at my house after work one day and play the Hotseat version (we were lucky to get 5 games in each a night but it was still great fun !! )

I love FM and how it pulls you into its world.

Its even better when there are three of you fighting for bragging rights with the league title or Champions League.

However, we are all now in our thirties and all have kids - different priorities and different goals

In saying that, we are about 10 seasons in on our FM10 save and are all still chasing glory and enjoying the game ( i personally cant find the time to play a single game myself but then i can only concentrate on one save at a time)

If SI were to bring out FM lite or improve/speed up the network game version (there is a thread in the online forums asking for ideas) - we would definately opt for that.

For us, its all about the signings and tactics and match day - you can pull people into the FM world without over complicating it.

Perhaps its just the stage the game is at - its got soo good and so in depth it has to try and add features.....but this doesnt always work.

2 versions using the same basic gameplay/engine might be the way to appease everyone and give us all the game we are looking for??

Del

[crouchaldinho]

Agree with Suzie on this, while i love micromanagment, in FM11 its become a chore, rather than immersive a la FM10. I want t be able to have all the optins available to me at any time when i talkabout an opposition manager, not just the ones the game feels are appropriate. I dont need want be able to put goals up on youtube, I'd rather have a more flexible TC. I want the AI to be much more robust tactically and in terms of squad management. I want an assistant manager who isnt a complete idiot. Player interaction is a minefield, but without enough information as to why.

Yeah, sums it up for me.

Would rather have the core of the game improved dramatically than lots of new minor and peripheral additions.

My advice if you are sick of the game is simply don't play it and stop coming on the forums. When the new season starts, (in real life), you might get the bug again, and in the meantime you can enjoy the summer.

I've been doing that, more or less. SI forums going down was convenient actually because that was a period of me not playing at all for a couple of months.

I still got the bug for the fantasy of managing a football team! But when I came back to FM10 to try to fulfil the bug, I got frustrated again.

This is exactly what I logged to write tonight (well, that and see if I could find some rumors for FM12). It is vitally important that SI implement customization for ALL non-core features (sorry, kids, press conferences and agents are non-essential; the latter are the main reason why I never play FM11 despite buying it the day after I defended my dissertation as a reward to myself). But I digress. The point I'm trying to make is that customization is vital for FM12. We, as consumers (and fanatically loyal consumers at that), should be able to tweak the game without breaking it. I should be able to disable agents and other features I dislike.

I agree!

I suppose I'm kind of rambling, but I think it's important that SI know that long-time players (I've been around since CM4) are somewhat disillusioned. I might be reading crouchaldinho wrong, but I think he wants - like I want - to be won back by the superior, awesomely fun game that we know SI can produce. So, the ball's in your court, SI: give us the rebound game we know you can.

Definitely. I just want to be really hooked again by dynamic and addictive play!

[Suzie MUFC]

Take press conferences, for example. In my imagination, they're fantastic and interesting. I'll be laying in bed before going to sleep, doing an imaginary conference in my head, talking about my teams chances! But then they now have an actual place in the game and they're just boring. There's too many of them, the questions are always the same, the responses are nonsensical, and they take up too much time. We didn't need the press conferences in the game, in my opinion, but just some basic interaction where we could fill in the blanks.

You know what it is for me personally: FM was best when I, as the player, had to fill in the gaps. Use my imagination to fill in what was happening instead of having it played out for me. That was the genius of the game. It was essentially a spreadsheet with a basic 2D match engine attached. The true depth was in my mind and it ruled!

+1 to both of these paragraphs.

I remember when Football Manager/Championship Manager was famous for being known in gaming mags as "the spreadsheet football management game". It's was quick and smooth to run, and straight to the point. A few clicks here, a few clicks there, and then a match. Now, it's bloated and bogged down with time-consuming, flawed guff.

And as for press conferences and "filling in the gaps", that's what made it fun for me too. Imagining that the little jinky blob is Ryan Giggs and actually picturing him in my head doing all the things the blob was doing. Imagining a heated argument with my star player who's threatening to leave unless he gets more money, and I end up lumping him one with a can of Pepsi from across the office. Imagining I (or my manager character) is sat there, answering much more odd questions than "Is Wayne Rooney fit for the game?", and then having a slanging match with a dodgy journo, storming out, only to pop my head around the door and telling him he'll be hearing from my lawyer in the morning and that I had wondered why my phone messages were acting up. All in my head, of course.

This was partly perhaps what made FM/CM great, the imagination factor. You just can't get this anymore with the game does it for you. It just becomes a clickfest.

[Phil Macklam]

Very interesting thread.

I sit here the same totally out of love with FM. Though Steam says I last turned it on on the 10th July I haven't actually played FM since early June/late May. On the other hand I've put 606 hours into this verson so some love "was" there.

For me is it that I'm soon to be 41 I feel too old? Married with 3 teenage kids so not a lot of time as I used to?

I think not if I'm honest. I do feel like others that FM has become too complex in the way it plays, sure we want realism but when it becomes a chore we have to draw a line.

Things like the press conferences, training setting up, creating and tweaking a tactic all become massive time wasters when I want to be playing the game not micro managing it like an RPG.

I've been with the game since CM1 and in the old days I totally loved it...for me it was the imagination you had to have during matches and also the game flew by as it was not bloated with many features.

On saying that I do love watching matches on the 3D engine but it still needs to be perfected.

Every year I say the same thing to myself...why do I bother with FM as I hardly play it and yet as soon as SI start to tease us with the next FM I get a sense of excitement for the next game.

I always buy on release day but then the same happens I hit a point where it just bores me due to the constant chore of the micro managing of certain aspects.

The only way I found any joy this time was to start in the lower leagues and work my way up but once there and the big boys come up I get tempeted. I leave and very soon the boredom sets in again.

I wouldn't want SI to strip away FM12 as I know they won't but I'd love to get that love back with a game that will dominate all others I own with it's simplicity and speed....time will tell.

[Suzie MUFC]

Here's a comparison. Grand Theft Auto 3 and GTA3: San Andreas. In San Andreas, the makers decided to add RPG elements to the main character, where you had to keep your strength up by spending time working out in gyms, and making sure you eat the right foods so that you didn't put on weight. While the rest of the game was great, this particular area wasted time and forced the player to meaninglessly grind away for something they never needed or wanted to do before. Whereas with it's predecessors (and thankfully GTA4), you could just jump straight into doing what you wanted to do.

The same pretty much applies with the press conference/interaction/micromanagement areas in FM09 onwards. It adds realism, but it's not necessarily a good idea if you want to relax and enjoy the game.

[Suzie MUFC]

Every year I say the same thing to myself...why do I bother with FM as I hardly play it and yet as soon as SI start to tease us with the next FM I get a sense of excitement for the next game.

I always buy on release day but then the same happens I hit a point where it just bores me due to the constant chore of the micro managing of certain aspects.

Ooh, here's another comparison. Imagine developing a crush on someone famous, and finding out they want to meet you. It's like Christmas, you're stupidly excited until the day comes. You meet them and... they have halitosis, they openly pick their nose and have childlike rolling-on-the-floor tantrums when they've been given Rola Cola for their drink. Suddenly you're disillusioned and somewhat disappointed.

Again, the same applies to FM.

To a degree, anyway.

[grade]

Great examples Suzie.

Here is another. What would be the point if SI put you personal life feature in the game like Fifa Manager? Adds nothing to FM.

If I want to play things like personal life of a football manager and have family and use my salary to by car or house, I would rather play Sims, then FM.

[AcidBurn]

Here's a comparison. Grand Theft Auto 3 and GTA3: San Andreas. In San Andreas, the makers decided to add RPG elements to the main character, where you had to keep your strength up by spending time working out in gyms, and making sure you eat the right foods so that you didn't put on weight. While the rest of the game was great, this particular area wasted time and forced the player to meaninglessly grind away for something they never needed or wanted to do before. Whereas with it's predecessors (and thankfully GTA4), you could just jump straight into doing what you wanted to do.

The same pretty much applies with the press conference/interaction/micromanagement areas in FM09 onwards. It adds realism, but it's not necessarily a good idea if you want to relax and enjoy the game.

Although this is a football manager forum I have to answer by saying that GTA 4 bored me because of the lack of the options San Andreas had in it, tattooing the character, working out, eating and customising cars was great and what made San Andreas better than GTA 4. I think the best thing was suggested by Captain Planet when he said that these things should be optional and there should be tick boxes to turn things off, would FM feel like less of a slog with these things turned off?

Ooh, here's another comparison. Imagine developing a crush on someone famous, and finding out they want to meet you. It's like Christmas, you're stupidly excited until the day comes. You meet them and... they have halitosis, they openly pick their nose and have childlike rolling-on-the-floor tantrums when they've been given Rola Cola for their drink. Suddenly you're disillusioned and somewhat disappointed.

Again, the same applies to FM.

To a degree, anyway.

That scenario sounds familiar to me, I am sure I have experienced it before with non famous people.

[hehehemann]

Brilliant Post Crouchy. I am like many others in this boat, I have been playing CM/FM ever since the first version was released. I'm now 37, no kids and have a nice job where i only have to work a few hours each week.

To be honest, my time playing CM/FM became more of an addiction, countless days playing becoming engrossed in a fantasy football world. No other game has had this effect on me, the civilization series is up there but I always turn back to play FM, always thinking of ways to improve the team and strategies to try out.

FM11 was released, I think only one previous version was as messed up as this version on release date. It didn't matter though. I always had bought the latest version, wanting to be up with the Jones', the latest has to be the greatest was my misheld belief.

At some point after I experienced the ground breaking bug where player histories would not be recorded by the game I became so disappointed by FM11 that I decided no longer would I be investing my money on release day for what has now consistently been release the game then spend 6 months fixing it!! My new philosophy for buying this game is wait until its in the bargain bin and get it at a good price then download the patches to bring the game to where it should have been on release.

With the disappointment of FM11 I went back to FM10. It took me a while to feel its okay to go backwards

It has been worth it again especially after reading SFrasers post in the tactics forum detailing his method of producing a Football Academy churning out youth as your club.

To sum up, FM11 was poorly done, FM10 seems a much better, fun and balanced game with less hiccups as evidence by my addictiveness rating....

119 days, 15 hours 56 minutes

[whilewolf]

As another long term player what i find particularly annoying is the game generating tasks for me. Go to this press conference, respond to this transfer speculation etc. In the earlier versions I set the pace. If I wanted to spend an hour between games scouting players and fiddling with tactics I could like wise I could just race to the next game. I wouldn't mind any of the new features so long as i was the one choosing to use them rather then being forced to.

[crouchaldinho]

As another long term player what i find particularly annoying is the game generating tasks for me. Go to this press conference, respond to this transfer speculation etc. In the earlier versions I set the pace.

That's a very good point.

[naxself]

FM11 was released, I think only one previous version was as messed up as this version on release date. It didn't matter though. I always had bought the latest version, wanting to be up with the Jones', the latest has to be the greatest was my misheld belief.

At some point after I experienced the ground breaking bug where player histories would not be recorded by the game I became so disappointed by FM11 that I decided no longer would I be investing my money on release day for what has now consistently been release the game then spend 6 months fixing it!! My new philosophy for buying this game is wait until its in the bargain bin and get it at a good price then download the patches to bring the game to where it should have been on release.

With the disappointment of FM11 I went back to FM10. It took me a while to feel its okay to go backwards

I agree with you: FM10 was far superior to FM11. The latter seemed extraordinarily buggy even after patches (culminating in the mind-blowing decision not to fix the tab key in the FM11 editor; I can't believe SI would say they're not going to fix something that made editing essentially un-doable; fortunately, the editing community fixed it on its own). I played FM10 for about 12 hours total in the last month, and loved it. But even then, the press conferences got tedious so I adopted Sir Alex's philosophy of only giving them when I have to, hehe.

The point I'm trying to make is that FM10 was a superior product to FM11 in just about every way (except the editor; the FM11 editor blew the FM10 editor out of the water). But, even with my penchant for editing things, I still prefer the basic edits to FM10 because FM11 was so flawed. I'm hoping FM12 fixes that and adds customization.

[Jugster]

It was interesting for me to read this thread because I fell out of love with the game a long time ago. I had played it religiously from CM2 back in 96 when I also had the opportunity to interview the Collyers in the back garden of their Islington house for a magazine feature. I think the best version was probably CM3 Season 01/02 but by that point the game kept promising more media and player interaction, without really backing it up. The game engine started to get more random. To me, it’s player quality first and foremost, then tactics, then player motivation a long way in third. Morale started to creep in, resulting in awful battles with relegation because the “team morale” was low. Despite having a great squad and playing the right tactics, games against the top teams in the first couple of seasons in the PL were almost impossible. They had a built in advantage even with worse players. Then the match highlights engine got more and more involved, without ever making the game any better or actually giving you any real information that you didn’t know. It just made the game slower.

By CM4 I was getting disillusioned. I had been playing the game for 8 years and spent far too much of my life on it. By 2006 the game interface was atrocious – multiple confirmations and clicks to get anywhere or do anything, random game engine, it had become so slow and tedious I’d had enough. 10 years of CM/FM and it was over.

I picked up the odd copy to play on my laptop when I was away. It didn’t seem like time lost if I wasn’t at home playing the game. It didn’t really catch my imagination though. It just seemed even slower and more tedious. I even tried CM2010 rather than FM, but that was just pants.

I tried CM on my iPod, god was that a struggle. Then, when I had an iPad, I tried FM mobile. Leaner, faster, you could play through a season in a few days. It was fast and fun again, though not particularly deep or rewarding enough. Marc Vaughan has often commented that it’s a mobile version of the earlier CM games and it really is.

The desktop series stopped being what I wanted it to be five years ago. I wanted a rewarding player experience, for it to simulate life as a football manager, so that my players and tactics won games and there were rewards like postcards from the places you went to on European trips, trophy cabinets, real and interesting media reporting on how you were doing, photos of the stadiums and cities you went to play in, and much better player characterisation. But instead it just disappeared up its own backside.

Reading all these posts from people complaining about all the things I hated in the first place means I won’t be coming back any day soon. But, if you liked the old days, I would suggest you give FMH a try, especially if you have an iPad.

[faraowww]

I think that Football Manager should be as realistic as possible. However, adding features like press conferences and teamtalks does not make it more realistic. I will explain why. In a game, real life can't be completely simulated so there are limits in the actions you can perform. "Core" FM concepts like tactics, matches and transfers are limited in reality as well. A tactic in football is something with clear boundaries, you can only send 11 people on the pitch and they can only perform certain actions. Football is a game of rules, therefore it has boundaries. The basis for tactics and matches are the options that are available. The same argument for numbered player attributes. There a bounded number of abilites that are relevant for a player. Players differ in abilites in reality, so players with different numbers are a good simulation of reality.

When it comes to a teamtalk a press conference or talking to an unhappy player, the boundaries are not so clear. You can basically say anything you want, at any tone of pitch with any nonverbal gesture you would like. Unlike tactics and matches, those are not very well-defined behaviors with a clear set of rules and options. In other words, the basis is not the options available, but whatever you want to do. Well you can't do whatever you want in a game, so therefore these new features will always decrease the level of realism. Not to mention the fact that they are repetitive and boring.

So I would say: get rid of all the unneccesary stuff, and make the game more realistic by focusing on the improvement of FM's "core" concepts (which are pretty good already). For example, improving the AI transfers will add more depth to the game then adding more answers to a press conference. I highly doubt that anybody from the game developers will listen to this argument, but would be happy with a tickbox where you could turn some features off.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

When it comes to a teamtalk a press conference or talking to an unhappy player, the boundaries are not so clear. You can basically say anything you want, at any tone of pitch with any nonverbal gesture you would like. Unlike tactics and matches, those are not very well-defined behaviors with a clear set of rules and options. In other words, the basis is not the options available, but whatever you want to do. Well you can't do whatever you want in a game, so therefore these new features will always decrease the level of realism. Not to mention the fact that they are repetitive and boring.

So I would say: get rid of all the unneccesary stuff, and make the game more realistic by focusing on the improvement of FM's "core" concepts.

^^I agree^^

[Phil Macklam]

Ooh, here's another comparison. Imagine developing a crush on someone famous, and finding out they want to meet you. It's like Christmas, you're stupidly excited until the day comes. You meet them and... they have halitosis, they openly pick their nose and have childlike rolling-on-the-floor tantrums when they've been given Rola Cola for their drink. Suddenly you're disillusioned and somewhat disappointed.

Again, the same applies to FM.

To a degree, anyway.

Very true. All your hopes and dreams are crushed in an instant.

Funny, while delivering the post today at work I was thinking about FM for the first time in ages and about my almost forgotton save game I had going, what I could and couldn't do next, partly due to this thread I suppose!

In the end I was knackered when I got home and the kids were fighting (damn school holidays) I lost my interest and didn't bother in the end.

[deardo]

I agree with Crouchie in several ways. I've gotten older and have less time and patience for the game just as it has taken larger steps in complexity and depth (although I'd argue that pretty much none of these added modules work that well).

I started play CM3 when I arrived in England from the US and it really helped my understanding of the game. Each year I'd buy the game when it came out and play it non-stop. The past few iterations I just haven't played as much and find it hard to make it through more than 2-3 seasons. I hardly touched FM11.

I've made a few posts talking about this, but I have two main problems. First, let me say that FM is by far the best model/simulation of football around. However, I do think that its modelling of the game is closer to weather forecasting than, say, heat flow in liquid metals, i.e., it struggles with the complexity of the system.

The two problems I see are poor research/modelling of club staff and total lack of user feedback in most modules. The first problem really impacts the ability to pick up the game and get stuck in. I usually start with Juventus as I know the team and, Lord knows, they need help. The starting staff are typically terrible from the coaches to scouts, although the physios seem to be quite good. I don't expect 5 star training, but with the restrictions on youth coaches and poorly generated staff, sometimes the starting coaches can't give better than 1-2 star training in some areas. That's just ridiculous, especially compared to reality. So, hours need to be spent just getting decent coaches and scouts before pre-season even starts, typically in the first week of the game. It can be tough to get any sort of decent scout reports before the first transfer window ends.

The second problem is the lack of feedback that the game gives in various areas like training, press conferences, team talks, etc. The systems are so opaque that people have written the equivalent of theses on each of these areas in the tactical theories forum. Since the game expects you to manage these areas well and, if ignored, can have major impacts on the team performance, the game forces you to dedicate time to these areas. This gets to the most important point of my problem. What exactly are you in this game? The manager, right? Well, starting a new game, you have no detailed knowledge of anything, really. If you are supposed to be a newly appointed manager, surely you should have a good knowledge of a lot of players (e.g., full scouting reports), developed training schedules and some knowledge of team talks. But, when booting up FM for the first time, you don't have any of this. All you can do is either spend time via trial and error, restarting the game after getting things to your liking, or reading the tactics bible, the training bible, the team talks bible, etc. It's like you start the game without any context that a real manager would have in life. I love reading the Reedswain books on tactics and training, I've played sport at a high level and had interactions with sports psychologists, but none of that helps much with getting to grips with the game. There is no decent default for any of the modules assuming they work properly (and things like team talks definitely operate with some assumptions about sports psychology that aren't necessarily even knowable, so I've never been sure of why it's been included). It's like SI assumes that adding more things to do increases the suspension of disbelief, but that's gone in any case when the existing club setup is terrible and you've got no in depth knowledge of players, training, etc.

Finally, and I apologize for the wall of text, the basic modules that have been the core of CM/FM, namely finances, transfers and the match engine, still are terrible. Now, I concede that it's the best out there, but there are so many problems with the core of the game, the match engine, that after putting in all that work getting your team to its first game, it's hard not to feel a let down when the half dozen ridiculous things happen in a game occur. What's the point of everything else if you are watching something that isn't football? I won't bother getting into the transfer issues either.

It also seems clear that whatever system SI has in place in terms of planning the series just isn't working. The games have fatal flaws until the 2nd or 3rd patch, so you either waste time with false starts at game launch or wait until Xmas to start playing. There are more and more components each year, rather than a dedicated effort to get the existing game in better shape. I understand that this might be a business imperative, but it's also a pretty good way to get long term fans frustrated and disillusioned. Still, I wish nothing but the best for SI's endeavors as they are clearly the market leaders in footy mgt games.

Cheers!

PS It's interesting that some play the game less when their team is doing poorly. I'm the total opposite. When I get frustrated watch my team IRL, FM is a way to give me hope going forward!

[stinger061]

I really think SI can't possibly win when it comes to new features and new versions. If they add nothing big and simply refine and fix up the features already in existence they receive abuse for not doing enough to move the series forward. On the other hand there is another group of people who complain when the new features are included because in their eyes it makes the game needlessly complex or they were 'unnecessary' features. I've been on these forums for a number of years on another account and I very clearly remember people pestering with constant threads about the need for press conferences/team talks etc. yet now we have just as many people complaining about them.

I think SI has handled most of their new features absolutely perfectly. Everything that has been bought in has always been an option. You can simply set things like press conferences and team talks to be automatically handled and play the game the way you like it. Same goes for 3D, I've never adopted it and still use the 2D version but others wouldn't play the game without it.

SI has to move forward or else they will just be putting out a data update every year and will lose sales through people who aren't willing to pay for that.

[x42bn6]

I think SI has handled most of their new features absolutely perfectly. Everything that has been bought in has always been an option. You can simply set things like press conferences and team talks to be automatically handled and play the game the way you like it. Same goes for 3D, I've never adopted it and still use the 2D version but others wouldn't play the game without it.

If "perfectly-handled" equals "poorly-built" , "repetitive" and "vague", then yes, it's perfect.

The issue is that it's been built so badly that it's scared off a lot of users from requesting more features. The number of people who say "I'd rather see SI perfect existing features than add more new buggy ones" says it all. I suppose having an annoying agents feature, repetitive press conferences and team-talks that still make no sense to a new user is one way of lowering expectations, but it's still wrong.

Yes, you can ignore press conferences, but people don't want to "ignore" them as such - they want them to not exist. The reason is that your assistant is likely to botch press conferences and impact your team somewhere along the line. What they want the assistant to do is say "no comment" to everything - which isn't possible.

If you like, a user has two options - study the press conferences "Bible" to waste several hours over a season conducting your own press conferences, or let your assistant mess-up every now and then and hurt your team as a result. I wouldn't think this is acceptable as a feature. The solution should be to make press conferences so awesome users don't need (or want) to study the press conferences "Bible" at all, with the option that a user can ignore it with no negative effects and no positive effects, essentially suggesting it doesn't exist.

I think the likes of press conferences have genuine merit, as long as they can be turned off or kept to an absolute minimum. For example, I think a pre-season press conference would be acceptable, as well as a press-conference at the end of the season, purely for the virtual fans. You should get some advice on-screen to suggest what each option might do (without noting the end effects), as well as get a genuine feel for a press-conference rather than lots of radio buttons. The user should find it engaging and fun.

[Jibby123]

I need regular breaks from the game and always have, right back to CM2. I will let it gather dust for 3-4 months then smash in to it for 1-2 months. Rinse and repeat.

[Suzie MUFC]

I'm with CaptainPlanet on the suggestion that certain key features should be made optional in Preferences. Press Conferences, conversations with players and agents, and perhaps even teamtalks. Teamtalks are so vague these days I don't really know what I'm doing with them anymore, some of them appear to have double meanings.

[stinger061]

The way I see it if you don't want the new features then go and load up FM05.

They aren't perfect but what is the other option, standing still and throwing out a game with new squads every year? All the new features SI have included have been off the back of community requests.

[x42bn6]

The way I see it if you don't want the new features then go and load up FM05.

They aren't perfect but what is the other option, standing still and throwing out a game with new squads every year? All the new features SI have included have been off the back of community requests.

No, SI should actually design the feature properly.

A feature that is badly-received by customers is a badly-designed feature. The problem is the badly-designed bit, not the feature.

[Suzie MUFC]

The way I see it if you don't want the new features then go and load up FM05.

They aren't perfect but what is the other option, standing still and throwing out a game with new squads every year? All the new features SI have included have been off the back of community requests.

It's not that we don't want new features, it's because they're so poorly thought out and designed. They're either repetitive or they slow the pace of the game right down, or in some cases, just buggy.

They should be thought out better and polished up, not rushed for release to please the FIFA Manager ship-jumpers.

[BiggusD]

I agree with Crouchie in several ways. I've gotten older and have less time and patience for the game just as it has taken larger steps in complexity and depth (although I'd argue that pretty much none of these added modules work that well).

I started play CM3 when I arrived in England from the US and it really helped my understanding of the game. Each year I'd buy the game when it came out and play it non-stop. The past few iterations I just haven't played as much and find it hard to make it through more than 2-3 seasons. I hardly touched FM11.

I've made a few posts talking about this, but I have two main problems. First, let me say that FM is by far the best model/simulation of football around. However, I do think that its modelling of the game is closer to weather forecasting than, say, heat flow in liquid metals, i.e., it struggles with the complexity of the system.

The two problems I see are poor research/modelling of club staff and total lack of user feedback in most modules. The first problem really impacts the ability to pick up the game and get stuck in. I usually start with Juventus as I know the team and, Lord knows, they need help. The starting staff are typically terrible from the coaches to scouts, although the physios seem to be quite good. I don't expect 5 star training, but with the restrictions on youth coaches and poorly generated staff, sometimes the starting coaches can't give better than 1-2 star training in some areas. That's just ridiculous, especially compared to reality. So, hours need to be spent just getting decent coaches and scouts before pre-season even starts, typically in the first week of the game. It can be tough to get any sort of decent scout reports before the first transfer window ends.

The second problem is the lack of feedback that the game gives in various areas like training, press conferences, team talks, etc. The systems are so opaque that people have written the equivalent of theses on each of these areas in the tactical theories forum. Since the game expects you to manage these areas well and, if ignored, can have major impacts on the team performance, the game forces you to dedicate time to these areas. This gets to the most important point of my problem. What exactly are you in this game? The manager, right? Well, starting a new game, you have no detailed knowledge of anything, really. If you are supposed to be a newly appointed manager, surely you should have a good knowledge of a lot of players (e.g., full scouting reports), developed training schedules and some knowledge of team talks. But, when booting up FM for the first time, you don't have any of this. All you can do is either spend time via trial and error, restarting the game after getting things to your liking, or reading the tactics bible, the training bible, the team talks bible, etc. It's like you start the game without any context that a real manager would have in life. I love reading the Reedswain books on tactics and training, I've played sport at a high level and had interactions with sports psychologists, but none of that helps much with getting to grips with the game. There is no decent default for any of the modules assuming they work properly (and things like team talks definitely operate with some assumptions about sports psychology that aren't necessarily even knowable, so I've never been sure of why it's been included). It's like SI assumes that adding more things to do increases the suspension of disbelief, but that's gone in any case when the existing club setup is terrible and you've got no in depth knowledge of players, training, etc.

Finally, and I apologize for the wall of text, the basic modules that have been the core of CM/FM, namely finances, transfers and the match engine, still are terrible. Now, I concede that it's the best out there, but there are so many problems with the core of the game, the match engine, that after putting in all that work getting your team to its first game, it's hard not to feel a let down when the half dozen ridiculous things happen in a game occur. What's the point of everything else if you are watching something that isn't football? I won't bother getting into the transfer issues either.

It also seems clear that whatever system SI has in place in terms of planning the series just isn't working. The games have fatal flaws until the 2nd or 3rd patch, so you either waste time with false starts at game launch or wait until Xmas to start playing. There are more and more components each year, rather than a dedicated effort to get the existing game in better shape. I understand that this might be a business imperative, but it's also a pretty good way to get long term fans frustrated and disillusioned. Still, I wish nothing but the best for SI's endeavors as they are clearly the market leaders in footy mgt games.

Cheers!

PS It's interesting that some play the game less when their team is doing poorly. I'm the total opposite. When I get frustrated watch my team IRL, FM is a way to give me hope going forward!

This. Well put and I completely agree.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

The way I see it if you don't want the new features then go and load up FM05.

They aren't perfect but what is the other option, standing still and throwing out a game with new squads every year? All the new features SI have included have been off the back of community requests.

I would prefer SI to do this, spend their time catching up with themselves and make perfect a great game. And I suggest they go back and start with FM10.

[Ego Scriptor]

One thing they could do instead of new features that actually unbalance the gameplay is to just focus on adding frills and details each year. More goal celebrations, touchline manager avatars, trophy celebrations after you win a league/cup, the ability to create a more detailed profile/biography when you make your character, silly-but-realistic random events like a fan running onto the pitch or a slight-chance that a well-timed fan chant might provide an in-match morale boost... along with the annual improvements to the match engine logic, little things like that would add a bit more to the game without upsetting the core, tactical focus of the game itself.

[derrickr]

The best thing SI have done (in my opinion) was the Tactics Creator in FM10 - it was the only reason we moved on from our previous network save.

This is a great example of taking something within the game that was too complex and impossible for the standard user and improve it tremedously.

Instead of worrying about whether you should go with 13 or 14 clicks you had a shiny new creator that held your hand through the process and allowed you to easily amend your tactics in an almost idiot proof manner.

It didnt guarantee you a fool proof tactic but simply make it easier to use - THAT'S what i would like in FM12.

Make it easier for the user to PLAY the game and not worry about micro managing new features that may have a big impact on what you do - without you realising why.

I for one would certainly buy and play a previously released version if it included 3D and the tactics creator - the two things that have increase my enjoyment of FM recently.

Buy, sell, train, bring through youngsters, tweak tactics and play.....perhaps i am in the minority but that would do for me

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Buy, sell, train, bring through youngsters, tweak tactics and play.....perhaps i am in the minority but that would do for me

You'll get no argument from me.

[faraowww]

It's not that we don't want new features, it's because they're so poorly thought out and designed. They're either repetitive or they slow the pace of the game right down, or in some cases, just buggy.

They should be thought out better and polished up, not rushed for release to please the FIFA Manager ship-jumpers.

Those new features will always be a dissappointment for many hardcore customers. Let's say they want to improve teamtalks. If they add more different possible talks, the thing will become more vague and time consuming. If they add more feedback on it's effects, it will become to mechanic and unrealistic. It makes sense that people wanted it, and that it has been tried, but we have to admit that human interaction is to complex to implement in a game that is essentially about the 90 minutes.