Falling out of love with the game

[pigfacemonkeyman]

6 please, all over the place.

[shirajzl]

What do you want to do about the morale?

1. Make the options more detailed
   
2. Have more options with more specific nuances
   
3. Remove it completely
   
4. Have some form of controlled delegation that instructs you AssMan to handle things in a certain way
   
5. Get better in-game feedback relating to your actions
   
6. Have better documentation
   

5 and 6. Especially 5. I'd like to have a clear idea what to do from the get-go. When I make a mistake, I'd like to know immediately what did I do wrong and what to do to fix it.

Some would say there's enough feedback in the game as it is because it is possible to master the morale, but in its current state it requires far too much trial and error and pure guessing until you get the hang of it.

Having better documentation can also be vague because it's possible to read a guide or something without learning much. That regularly happens when guides are too broad and generic.

[BossAsianMafia]

5 and 6. Especially 5. I'd like to have a clear idea what to do from the get-go. When I make a mistake, I'd like to know immediately what did I do wrong and what to do to fix it.

Some would say there's enough feedback in the game as it is because it is possible to master the morale, but in its current state it requires far too much trial and error and pure guessing until you get the hang of it.

Having better documentation can also be vague because it's possible to read a guide or something without learning much. That regularly happens when guides are too broad and generic.

5 and 6 before SI even THINKS about refining the morale system.

Also less randomness e.g. in tutoring

[themadsheep2001]

5. and 6. in a big way. The game needs to be a bit more obvious with information.

[milnerpoint]

I personally think 1 is very important, but 5 could also do with improving. At the moment i think some of the interactions are too basic, the tone feature should help with that, i think as well with 5 there could be more interactions and conversations with players to help players understand things more. Not too bothered about documentation to be honest.

[shirajzl]

I personally think 1 is very important, but 5 could also do with improving. At the moment i think some of the interactions are too basic, the tone feature should help with that, i think as well with 5 there could be more interactions and conversations with players to help players understand things more. Not too bothered about documentation to be honest.

Where's the logic in adding more details without proper documentation?

[themadsheep2001]

I personally think 1 is very important, but 5 could also do with improving. At the moment i think some of the interactions are too basic, the tone feature should help with that, i think as well with 5 there could be more interactions and conversations with players to help players understand things more. Not too bothered about documentation to be honest.

6 isnt personally important to me, but its important to the game as a whole.

[milnerpoint]

Where's the logic in adding more details without proper documentation?

I'm only speaking from my own perspective, i enjoy finding out what works and what doesn't, i appreciate not everyone does tho. But like you said yourself documentation alone doesnt always teach you that much, an ingame thing that helps you as you play would be more beneficial i think.

[x42bn6]

4, 5 and 6 are must-haves.

I agree with the spirit of 1 and 2, but not the wording, in the sense that it implies that the current set of options are perfect and we are just adding to it (new options and nuances). For example, we have seen that "Pleased" can easily be misinterpreted by a new user, suggesting that it is entirely possible that "pleased" in itself is an inappropriate wording.

"Pleased" as in "Wow, great work, team!" or "Pleased" as in "Wow, now keep this up!" is one possible confusion (the former implies nothing on how the team should focus in the second-half, whilst the latter does; the former would probably reduce pressure, but the latter would probably increase it), suggesting "Pleased" is too broad a team-talk. Adding more team-talks and adding "nuances" does not necessarily fix this issue.

Therefore it's something like "7. Analyse existing team-talks and add, edit and/or remove as appropriate", that covers 1, 2 and then some..

[philly_flyer10]

Make morale less important and/or make players less likely to go to extremes of either very good or very poor. This leads to stupidly long streaks.

The players are totally bipolar in FM, they need to be more balanced.

[shirajzl]

The players are totally bipolar in FM, they need to be more balanced.

Charlie Sheen Manager 2011.

[Dave C]

You still torturing innocent birds in museums mate?

Ha! More than ever my friend, more than ever!

[E.Gray]

crouchaldinho, i bet you can't wait to get your hands on fm12 and select your tone of voice?

That new features sums up everything that you complained about in your original post, why can't they come up with a fun feature involving building a club around a certain footballing philosophy? So when you leave a club, the board doesn't hire a manager who comes in changes the formation, sells your academy players and completely disassembles the club you spend decades building. The best example is when Guardiola leaves Barca and the board hires someone who plays a defensive 4-2-3-1 and ends up flogging the young stars to fund 3 DMs. That for me is the biggest fun killer.

[Dave C]

For what it is worth, I think SI have moved towards some of the things DaveC brings up. Youth players are now aligned with national culture and you can develop an academy network. However, the alignment is only with culture, not with your managerial playing preferences. Having the manager determine what type of player he wants his academy to find/develop would be an interesting element of the game. However, it would only really be relevant to long-term managers. In the EPL, I can only see Ferguson and Wenger doing that. Some clubs, notably Barcelona and Ajax, have this type of thing built into their structures. However, most clubs don't employ managers for long enough to do something like this. As such, I can see why it might not be high priority for development.

But in FM, and I've no stats to back this up, my feeling is that people tend towards one-club careers more than in real-life. A lot of people play their favourite club, and stay there. So features that reward long-term gameplay are very important.

I also think SI have moved a step in the right direction with training. It is possible to mould players somewhat. However, it is still relatively tedious. His other comments all have great validity. However, again, I'm left wondering how often this happens in real life football clubs. Managers are often not around long enough to develop long-lasting bonds to the board, staff or players. Once again, I can see why adding this type of thing might not be high priority as it will only kick in for long-term saves in which the manager spends many years at one club.

Again, as above, I reckon it's important for a game like FM.

[E.Gray]

But in FM, and I've no stats to back this up, my feeling is that people tend towards one-club careers more than in real-life. A lot of people play their favourite club, and stay there. So features that reward long-term gameplay are very important.

+ 1 i suppose it could be the same system which allows you pick the feeder club after you have build enough trust with the club board?

[Pangaea]

I'd say it's important even if you just stay 2-3 years in a club too. IRL 'all' managers have a certain ideology they want to implement in the club, which starts with training and the qualities of the staff. Many bring in some of their own staff, who they trust from earlier jobs.

Looking at update threads and screenshots in many places, it seems like a lot of people are managing in the same club for years and years on end. In the real world Sir Alex and Wenger are exceptions, but in the FM world there are quite a lot of managers like that. So I think it's important to cater to that type of gameplay by making us more connected to clubs the longer we stay there. That will also give us an incentive to do so, and thus increase the immersion.

[Dave C]

I'd say it's important even if you just stay 2-3 years in a club too. IRL 'all' managers have a certain ideology they want to implement in the club, which starts with training and the qualities of the staff. Many bring in some of their own staff, who they trust from earlier jobs.

The staff thing, definitely. Managerial "teams" are a well-known thing, a huge number of managers have trusted AMs at the very least.

The ideology thing is also valid. The more AI managers have NPTs that apply practically, the better.

Take Gary Mills at York. Likes his 433 system. Likes pace. Goes out in the summer and looks for his type of player, to suit his system.

[Lazaru5]

The staff thing, definitely. Managerial "teams" are a well-known thing, a huge number of managers have trusted AMs at the very least.

The ideology thing is also valid. The more AI managers have NPTs that apply practically, the better.

Take Gary Mills at York. Likes his 433 system. Likes pace. Goes out in the summer and looks for his type of player, to suit his system.

Or take Lee Clark at Huddersfield, while a lot of the changes behind the scenes are part of Dean Hoyle's long-term "vision" for Town, Clark has also had a lot of input into the new training facilities and the youth academy. He also has a system he likes, 4-4-2 at home, 4-1-2-2-1/4-3-3/4-5-1 (whichever the game chooses to use today ) away but judging by the signings he has made this summer he may be leaning more towards the 4-2-3-1 that we played in many friendlies this pre-season.

He also signs players to suit his "style", a new team every season it seems although this year he seems to have become more like an FM AI manager than ever and signed a dozen midfielders....

[wwfan]

But in FM, and I've no stats to back this up, my feeling is that people tend towards one-club careers more than in real-life. A lot of people play their favourite club, and stay there. So features that reward long-term gameplay are very important.

I'd certainly like elements of long-term play improved. However, they'd have to be linked to reasons for having them in shorter-term management. I think a form of delegation might be the answer. A delegation system would lend itself to trusting staff and getting to know them more, and can be linked to your vision of the club by fine tuning what and how you delegate with long-term plans to develop a certain philosophy and playing style.

For example, you might instruct your training team to have a long-term focus on developing technique, which knocks onto the advice they give you, but a short term focus on getting your most promising kids strong enough to play for the first team.

[BiggusD]

What do you want to do about the morale?

1. Make the options more detailed
   
2. Have more options with more specific nuances
   
3. Remove it completely
   
4. Have some form of controlled delegation that instructs you AssMan to handle things in a certain way
   
5. Get better in-game feedback relating to your actions
   
6. Have better documentation
   

1. Turn the wordings into full sentences, at least. If 2012 is bringing emotive keywords which are then auto-converted to full sentences, that is an improvement. I have argued before that the team talks as they are now is a click-on-the-correct-choice minigame, with five or so meaningless tag-lines. One is right, the others are wrong and will likely cost you points. The choices should be between different relatively positive options because that would take the focus back on what is happening on the pitch - which is what would make the players nervous or confident, not whatever motivational speech the manager performs in the changing room. Confidence is built up and lost over time, not given or taken away with the click of a mouse button.

2. The match preparation options could be greatly expanded upon to replace the silly press conferences as tools to boost or reassure the squad. While press conferences are meant for -yes you guessed it- the press (and those who read/watch things like that. A.k.a the Fans), it is during the many training sessions per day that the manager speaks the most with his coaches and players. It is there that he reassures the player who scored an own-goal last game that stuff like that happens to everyone, and there that he instructs the strikers who missed all the chances last game to practice shooting and scoring so that they forget all about that. It is through this everyday contact with fringe players in the squad he tells them how important it is to the team that they continue fighting on even though they haven't started yet this season, because without them there is no team.

- so how should this be implemented in the game to bolster realism? Actually the manager often has more important stuff to do than attending each training session. That is what the assistant and coaches are for! They report to him what they have seen on the training field: who seemed to jog around with his head down, who were kidding playfully, who remained at the training field after hours to practice on his game, who seemed to struggle keeping up with the others... all this is shared in the pre-match meeting. That one, the manager attends.

- an example of such a weekly training report would be "players X, Y and Z seems to struggle keeping up with the tempo and intensity of our training sessions. You may consider sending them down to the reserves/youth team." In other words, one player with too low CA isn't such a problem to the team, but three or more then the quality of the training could be hurt and the preparedness for the next mach in jeopardy. This would of course presuppose better control of the First Team vs Reserve/B team training regimes and the players in them.

- rather than your coaches being only faceless machines - drones that report coldly whatever's going on - they should have minds of their own too. If they are confident and believe in what you are doing (read: shares your playing mentality and style), and that the team can achieve the board's and fan's expectations, that confidence should spread to the players. If not, you'd probably need to convince them. Or let them go.

3. Needless to say, in order for the press conferences to have only an indirect effect on team morale, the press and not the least the fans both needs to be more realistically and interactively designed. If you buy a big-name player, the fans state their delight. Once. If you win a title, the fans are happy and tell you so. Once. They need to be a much more integral force, for example voicing discontent at the playing style if you try to implement Scandinavian defensive organization and little creative freedom in Real Madrid, or pushing up with all but the two central defenders in Italy while in the lead. Or if you sign a player with poor technique to Barcelona. If you go the "win with kids" route in Milan, wouldn't their fans be a bit conserned about the lack of experience? The media should also be more critical if you lose a game you were huge favourites to win - and together with the fans create a storm of smelly waste material. Yes I want to hear more from the fans, but not in the form of tedious press conferences.

[philly_flyer10]

I agree PCs arent designed for your own players, managers will often tell the PC one thing and the players another thing.

He might say his team have no chance as the other team has too much quality hoping this will make the other team complacent, then he would be telling his players they can do it if they work hard enough.

In FM this would just result in your own players believing they cannot win.

Its why I avoided PCs totally. Its a stupid mini game where you have a 4/5 chance of getting it wrong so why do it?

[Dave C]

I'd certainly like elements of long-term play improved. However, they'd have to be linked to reasons for having them in shorter-term management. I think a form of delegation might be the answer. A delegation system would lend itself to trusting staff and getting to know them more, and can be linked to your vision of the club by fine tuning what and how you delegate with long-term plans to develop a certain philosophy and playing style.

For example, you might instruct your training team to have a long-term focus on developing technique, which knocks onto the advice they give you, but a short term focus on getting your most promising kids strong enough to play for the first team.

Delegation was always the answer I came up with to help people customise their gameplay. Fully agree.

[Zico]

This is my first post since November 27th, 2009, the system tells me. I thought FM 8.02 was the best version ever, fun to play and just buggy enough to let you think you'd be able to outsmart the AI occasionally. I bought FM 2009 and quickly gave up, took a look at the demo of FM 2010 and decided not to buy it for the first time since 1997. The whole game seems to have drowned in unnecessary bureaucracy. At one point I found the message "Your assistant coach thinks XYZ is the best crosser of the ball" and then I have to decide if I agree or not. So what? Who cares? I just want to play the game without fretting that my team is going to flop because I didn't spent 55 hours creating a special training programme for one particular player. It's become too boring.

[BenskiSullivanovich]

Having skipped back to FM2010 as mentioned above (ID - HowBloominAnnoying, I lost my login details OOPs) I've taken that as my break and returned to FM2011.

I have to say that since upgrading my laptop (hence the SI login details being lost) to a spec that far exceeds anything I think I'll ever need I have definitely got a new love for FM2011. Being able to have full graphics and being able to run a much larger database at a much quicker speed has added much more depth and interest to the game, the i7 is hardly bothered by it.

The press conferences and team talks are still about as much fun as sticking pins in your eyes but watching the 3D game highlights in top quality is a revelation and I feel it's almost like playing a whole new version of the game. I hope they make a 64 bit version of FM2012 so I can make full use of the 8GB.

Best/Worst Press Conference follow up comment so far "Woodley Town felt that the red card was undeserved" which was after I'd said the tackle (a blatent headbutt) had no place in the game and that the matter would be dealt with internally (a two week wage fine). In game the red card was given for a professional foul......I don't think there is any real need to get into the definition of what actually is a professional foul and what is an obvious act of pure violence :-)

[hbtfdbs]

This is my first post since November 27th, 2009, the system tells me. I thought FM 8.02 was the best version ever, fun to play and just buggy enough to let you think you'd be able to outsmart the AI occasionally. I bought FM 2009 and quickly gave up, took a look at the demo of FM 2010 and decided not to buy it for the first time since 1997. The whole game seems to have drowned in unnecessary bureaucracy. At one point I found the message "Your assistant coach thinks XYZ is the best crosser of the ball" and then I have to decide if I agree or not. So what? Who cares? I just want to play the game without fretting that my team is going to flop because I didn't spent 55 hours creating a special training programme for one particular player. It's become too boring.

I have to agree with you on that, this is also my first post in a while, haven't even played fm for a atleast a year now. It became too much about micromanaging motivation and tactics it was no longer fun, the last fm I really enjoyed was 09, and ofcourse the best for me 07. FM now is the kinda game that you have to spend a lot of time playing it or none at all, for instance you can't just walk back into the game after a month, as you've forgotten how to get your team winning and you end up ruining it. It just requires to much hard work to win at, which eliminates the fun immensely.

I highly disagree with the idea of tactics in this game, like people say oh if the opposition goes attacking you should counter, or get stuck in when it's wet, it's all ********. I just believe in good players playing well and winning games because they're good, not because the manager is supposedley some form of tactical mastermind. I just feel the match engine isn't realistic, I mean I'm yet to see someone get even close to recreate barcelona-esque football.

[Lazaru5]

I have to agree with you on that, this is also my first post in a while, haven't even played fm for a atleast a year now. It became too much about micromanaging motivation and tactics it was no longer fun, the last fm I really enjoyed was 09, and ofcourse the best for me 07. FM now is the kinda game that you have to spend a lot of time playing it or none at all, for instance you can't just walk back into the game after a month, as you've forgotten how to get your team winning and you end up ruining it. It just requires to much hard work to win at, which eliminates the fun immensely.

I highly disagree with the idea of tactics in this game, like people say oh if the opposition goes attacking you should counter, or get stuck in when it's wet, it's all ********. I just believe in good players playing well and winning games because they're good, not because the manager is supposedley some form of tactical mastermind. I just feel the match engine isn't realistic, I mean I'm yet to see someone get even close to recreate barcelona-esque football.

I'm on it!

I have an experimental formation that is based on the football I saw Barca play in the ECL final at Wembley and against Arsenal in the semi? (or was it quarters?) Admittedly, my EFL Championship Hereford team aren't as great technically as Messi and Co but, at times, the football most definitely resembles Barcelona's. It's obviously still a WiP but I'm hoping that when I decide it's "ready" to test in a Barcelona save I'll be able to say I've cracked it and my Barca team will play like Pep's

[milnerpoint]

There are sevaral threads in the tactics forum where people have recreated Barca's shape and formation to the best of the games abilities, i dont download tactics myself but the feedback seems to be very good.

[Pangaea]

This should be obvious, but there aren't a lot of teams IRL that play like Barca either, so it probably shouldn't be easy to do it in FM. Not that it should be a goal in itself to try to bore people to tears with that style of football, mind.

[wwfan]

This should be obvious, but there aren't a lot of teams IRL that play like Barca either, so it probably shouldn't be easy to do it in FM.

I seriously agree with this.

I highly disagree with the idea of tactics in this game, like people say oh if the opposition goes attacking you should counter, or get stuck in when it's wet, it's all ********. I just believe in good players playing well and winning games because they're good, not because the manager is supposedley some form of tactical mastermind. I just feel the match engine isn't realistic, I mean I'm yet to see someone get even close to recreate barcelona-esque football.

This, however, is ridiculous. There are two methods of tactical play in FM. You can either develop a style of play or you can pragmatically adapt to conditions, opposition formation etc. Either way becomes easier when you have good, motivated players. In FM, as in real life, a manager is going to fail if he is inept tactically, in recognising player quality or in man-management.

The reason the Barca style is impossible to create is nothing to do with the match engine, but to do with the lack of options in the tactical creator. You need to have a DMC role in which the DMC drops into the defensive line when the team is in possession and a dual pivot playmaker system (possibly even a triple pivot as Barca arguably have three playmakers). Even without these roles, it is still very possible to approximate a Barca style tactic if you know what you are doing tactically.

[Äktsjon Männ]

You can't replicate Barcelona's high pressing game in the match engine. Defending in FM is strictly one on one so you can't get your team to close the ball down in numbers - which is absolutely vital if you want to play this style. The short one touch passing part of their game is certainly doable though, too much so really to be honest.

[Lazaru5]

You can't replicate Barcelona's high pressing game in the match engine. Defending in FM is strictly one on one so you can't get your team to close the ball down in numbers - which is absolutely vital if you want to play this style. The short one touch passing part of their game is certainly doable though' date=' too much so really to be honest.[/quote']

Wrong.... it's your tactics! My players regularly double up on the opposition and even tackle them together...

[Äktsjon Männ]

Do show me examples then. I mean highlights that show two or more players actively closing down the ball high up the pitch. And your magnificient tactics that manage to achieve something that isn't even coded in the game.

Edit. There are two states of defending in FM - active closing down/marking and covering. When you see two or more players near the opposition player with the ball one is always triggered to actively defend while the others are covering. When the covering player is triggered to defend the other player immediately switches to cover. Often by making a sudden and sharp change in direction. Which is why you occasionally see an attacking player beat a whole defense when in fact he is only beating the one actively defending him. The others in covering positions can't actively switch over to him until the game deems the active player beaten, which is usually too late. These mechanics are also the reason why pressing high up the pitch can't work.

[Lazaru5]

The next time I load the game up, (it's not running atm as I'm doing OS/AV/Driver updates, etc), I'll try to remember to take a screenie or two of my players closing down together or even tackling together. My players also press high up the pitch, the only player they don't close down an awful lot is the oppo keeper... which annoys me a lot!

IT confuses me when I see people saying that something isn't possible that I see my player's do... because, obviously, my player's CAN... why can't yours? *shrugs*

[BiggusD]

Do show me examples then. I mean highlights that show two or more players actively closing down the ball high up the pitch. And your magnificient tactics that manage to achieve something that isn't even coded in the game.

Edit. There are two states of defending in FM - active closing down/marking and covering. When you see two or more players near the opposition player with the ball one is always triggered to actively defend while the others are covering. When the covering player is triggered to defend the other player immediately switches to cover. Often by making a sudden and sharp change in direction. Which is why you occasionally see an attacking player beat a whole defense when in fact he is only beating the one actively defending him. The others in covering positions can't actively switch over to him until the game deems the active player beaten' date=' which is usually too late. [b']These mechanics are also the reason why pressing high up the pitch can't work.[/b]

All the players on the pitch aren't aware of where the ball is at any given time, no. The "loose ball syndrome" is a good example of this.

However, you are wrong in that pressing high up the pitch can't work. In my opinion it is the only thing that works. Attacking mentality is the instruction that makes sure that your players are actually trying to take the ball from the opposing players, along with high Closing Down. Unfortunately, it is also an instruction that allows them to not bother with whatever is happening behind them on the pitch. It is also a bit risky when defenders have an attacking mentality and closing down setting because if they miss the interception or tackle, the opponent often get lots of space to run in. Defending mentalities and low closing down means that your team is waiting for the advancing opponent, denying them space. They also risk less in their passing choices and only attempt tackles when they reach shooting range. The resulting gameplay is extreme passitivity, and thus very poor defending - as you say.

The solution is to defend with many players all having attacking mentalities, high closing down and with a high defensive line. This way, if the first line of defense (deep midfielders) fail to intercept the advancing enemies, there is one more line of defense which is actively trying to dispossess them. Together, that is often enough.

In other words, I believe the reason your defenders automatically go into a cover role when there is another team-mate pressing the opponent, is because they have a too defensive mentality, too low closing down setting and/or the defensive line is too deep compared to those two settings.

[grade]

Let me explain why i don't like the morale in this latest games. The reason is just one.

I feel the with Press Conferences and Teamtalks have too much influence on the players that renders players stats useless. What I mean is you can pretty much controlling Press Conferences and Team Talks with average player stats and dominate any of top leagues and european club competition, without breaking a sweat. Stats (players quality) used to be important for a squad, now it seems to me that this is unimportant and useless.

This makes the game for me boring, uninterested and less motivated to play the game.

PS: Also I feel that what you do in-game world is still useless. The first stage is, if one of become a legend at a club, that should remain no matter what happens even if you end up managing a rival club. If this doesn't work it is useless to think anything else.

[shirajzl]

Let me explain why i don't like the morale in this latest games. The reason is just one.

I feel the with Press Conferences and Teamtalks have too much influence on the players that renders players stats useless. What I mean is you can pretty much controlling Press Conferences and Team Talks with average player stats and dominate any of top leagues and european club competition, without breaking a sweat. Stats (players quality) used to be important for a squad, now it seems to me that this is unimportant and useless.

It's not true players attributes and tactics don't matter anymore, but morale does have too big of an effect on everything. I mean, it's nothing short of ridiculous that I can throw my opponent's best player out of balance just by stating he's the biggest threat to us. It'd be ok if it happens from time to time, but it's possible to do it before almost every game. Also, I can fix my players' morale by simple chats after games, especially if they excelled or underperformed.

It wouldn't be such a big thing if "superb" morale didn't make a player three times better than the same player with "ok" morale.

[x42bn6]

It's not true players attributes and tactics don't matter anymore, but morale does have too big of an effect on everything. I mean, it's nothing short of ridiculous that I can throw my opponent's best player out of balance just by stating he's the biggest threat to us. It'd be ok if it happens from time to time, but it's possible to do it before almost every game. Also, I can fix my players' morale by simple chats after games, especially if they excelled or underperformed.

It wouldn't be such a big thing if "superb" morale didn't make a player three times better than the same player with "ok" morale.

I'm not sure that's a morale problem - that might suggest that a player is so easily hurt by comments in the media that he turns suicidal.

A squad of extremely unhappy players simply isn't going to perform... But how they become unhappy in the first place should be looked at.

[Somebodyfoolish]

When it comes to the morale options, 1 and 5 absolutely. I'm feeling currently like I'm playing a puzzle game, not a football management simulator...

[Guest]

When it comes to the morale options, 1 and 5 absolutely. I'm feeling currently like I'm playing a puzzle game, not a football management simulator...

Yeah, it completly breaks the immersion for me. I have grew to hate this game ever since they were introduced. They are a joke which just isnt funny.

I'm not going to bother with this game anymore until they are removed. Its not realistic and its not fun.