A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[SeanNUFC]

Neil are you SERIOUSLY SUGGESTING that people play FM with their internet entirely turned off? So the entire community that is FM gamers goes totally bust because you've "allied" with a platform that doesn't work properly for a large number of users in offline mode?

Think you've completely missed the point and misread everything.

[Barside]

Im in the bracket that Im not really fussed with this change

Nearly spat my beer out at the post on a previous page with a poster stating they had no access to the internet whilst posting on an online forum

If he was posting before 5pm he might have been on the skive at work or he could have been using his 3G mobile.

You are correct in saying that some of those complaining are doing so because it's a nice bandwagon to jump on.

I'm not keen on installing Steam because I had major issues with it in the past, granted that would have been 3 or 4 years ago but a negative experience of a product is hard to shake no matter how hard the marketing types tell you it's better. Trust is easy to lose, tough to gain & even harder to get a second time around.

[Eugene Tyson]

You don't have to turn your internet off. You can just set Steam to Offline Mode. That was just an added step for people with delusions of people hacking their computers, imo.

[jptykes]

Im in the bracket that Im not really fussed with this change

Nearly spat my beer out at the post on a previous page with a poster stating they had no access to the internet whilst posting on an online forum

Maybe he was posting from work or via a mobile phone?

[Foxo]

You don't have to turn your internet off. You can just set Steam to Offline Mode. That was just an added step for people with delusions of people hacking their computers, imo.

Neil suggested turning internet off to make Steam stay in offline mode. Mine stays in offline mode then crashes after 20 minutes when it discovers a connection and wants to connect. Steam can't help, they've tried. What am I meant to do?

[tattoman65]

This is the real and only reason why they want you to use steam .

Regional restrictions and pricing

Steam allows developers and publishers to change prices and restrict game availability depending on the user's location. This can cause some games to cost more than retail prices, despite digital distribution removing the costs of manufacturing, packaging, design, and logistics



Some games purchased in one region become unplayable if user moves to another.
Steam allows developers and publishers to change prices and restrict game availability depending on the user's location. This can cause some games to cost more than retail prices, despite digital distribution removing the costs of manufacturing, packaging, design, and logistics.

Valve also restricts game registration and playability to the buyer's country of residence. One example of this regional restriction can be seen where Valve uses Steam's authentication to prevent boxed versions of their games sold in Russia and Thailand, which are priced significantly lower than elsewhere, from being used outside those territories.

Steam offers products in four currencies: US Dollar, Euro, Pound Sterling and Russian Ruble. The currency is selected automatically based on the user's location, and cannot be changed. Steam has been heavily criticized by European users for pricing games much higher in Eurozone countries.

[Kriss]

Sometimes you don't need to say something so bluntly for it to appear in a certain way. If someone doesn't want to use Steam, they won't be able to play the game. So, if they don't like it, what exactly should they do? They won't be able to play FM12.

To me, that seems like an extended version of 'if you don't like it - tough'.

Personally, I really don't like Steam. I'm not going to say I won't buy or play FM12 because of it, because I probably will. But that's not to say I don't strongly disagree with the decision - and that includes making us use Steam as well as the motives behind it, as I really can't see it affecting piracy levels (especially in the way you're hoping).

Whilst I'm likely to play FM12, I'm becoming more and more disillusioned by action such as this and I have to say that I'm not sure how much longer I'll be a player of the FM series.

That's how you and others are choosing to interpret it, they could equally well be saying we deeply regret it but for FM12 you will need to authenticate via Steam, can't say I've seen any SI/sega staff putting it in the offensive way you've chosen to interpret it.

[SeanNUFC]

Neil suggested turning internet off to make Steam stay in offline mode. Mine stays in offline mode then crashes after 20 minutes when it discovers a connection and wants to connect. Steam can't help, they've tried. What am I meant to do?

Er, why not just play with the internet on? Avoid all problems then ?

[asdpoo]

This is the real and only reason why they want you to use steam .

Regional restrictions and pricing

Steam allows developers and publishers to change prices and restrict game availability depending on the user's location. This can cause some games to cost more than retail prices, despite digital distribution removing the costs of manufacturing, packaging, design, and logistics



Some games purchased in one region become unplayable if user moves to another.
Steam allows developers and publishers to change prices and restrict game availability depending on the user's location. This can cause some games to cost more than retail prices, despite digital distribution removing the costs of manufacturing, packaging, design, and logistics.

Valve also restricts game registration and playability to the buyer's country of residence. One example of this regional restriction can be seen where Valve uses Steam's authentication to prevent boxed versions of their games sold in Russia and Thailand, which are priced significantly lower than elsewhere, from being used outside those territories.

Steam offers products in four currencies: US Dollar, Euro, Pound Sterling and Russian Ruble. The currency is selected automatically based on the user's location, and cannot be changed. Steam has been heavily criticized by European users for pricing games much higher in Eurozone countries.

Steam (Valve) doesn't price anything, publishers (SEGA) do. But yeah, it enables them to do that.

[Foxo]

Er, why not just play with the internet on? Avoid all problems then ?

I don't avoid all problems because I commute 2-3 hours a day when I regularly play FM. How am I meant to be online and avoid problems? I can't be.

[Scott_Allen]

Just thought I would add my bit to this topic as well... Absolutely hate steam had it for 09 or 10 not sure which! Seriously disappointed at the decision from Sega! I have bought many legit copies over the years along with playing FML when that was around but this whole steam thing is a bit silly...surely there must be another way of activating this?

[BuryBlade]

That's how you and others are choosing to interpret it, they could equally well be saying we deeply regret it but for FM12 you will need to authenticate via Steam, can't say I've seen any SI/sega staff putting it in the offensive way you've chosen to interpret it.

Kriss- had it been written like you have put it then fair enough- but it was written- ''People who aren't willing to use Steam won't be able to play Football Manager 2012.''

That is pretty blunt and fairly cold/harsh imo. Your lexical choices are much more effective when it comes to this customer service side of things.

[tattoman65]

And also read your steam account terms .........

Authentication

It is necessary to authenticate every Steam game online, whether purchased via Steam itself or installed via a retail disc, the first time it is played.[90] After the initial authentication, an offline mode allows games to be run without being connected to your Steam account.

According to the Steam Subscriber Agreement, Steam's availability is not guaranteed and Valve is under no legal obligation to release an update disabling the authentication system in the event that Steam becomes permanently unavailable


More reasons to not buy this years game

[Eugene Tyson]

Neil suggested turning internet off to make Steam stay in offline mode. Mine stays in offline mode then crashes after 20 minutes when it discovers a connection and wants to connect. Steam can't help, they've tried. What am I meant to do?

Reconnect and the turn to offline mode again.

There's something wrong with your computer. That's not normal behaviour. I suggest you consult a pro.

[Foxo]

Reconnect and the turn to offline mode again.

There's something wrong with your computer. That's not normal behaviour. I suggest you consult a pro.

It's not my computer, it's my Steam account. This is my 3rd laptop this problem has happened on, and it isn't my internet either as i've moved house twice. Steam suggested a new account as the solution. I asked if they would move all the games bought on my old account over, about £50 worth. They said no I had to buy them again. This is what people mean by awful customer service.

[MAINBOY]

I downloaded the FM 11 demo from Steam last year and it crashed every time i played it. Here's hoping it doesn't do that with FM 12.

[dafuge]

This means I will not buy FM 12. Or any future games if this policy persists.

Simple as.

As unhappy as I am about this decision, I can't take it that far. I'll suck it up just to play FM.

[Chris Ritchie]

It's not my computer, it's my Steam account. This is my 3rd laptop this problem has happened on, and it isn't my internet either as i've moved house twice. Steam suggested a new account as the solution. I asked if they would move all the games bought on my old account over, about £50 worth. They said no I had to buy them again. This is what people mean by awful customer service.

Haha, that's brilliant

[tattoman65]

Also more hot news why not to use steam ..


Electronic Arts

In July 2011, several Electronic Arts games were removed from Steam. EA has stated that this is because of disputes over Valve's policies regarding how Downloadable Content can be distributed to Steam users

[reece1973]

Been using Steam with FM for 3 years now and never had problems.

No issues whatsoever playing with no internet connection either and no problems playing when connected to the internet too.

[SeanNUFC]

It's not my computer, it's my Steam account. This is my 3rd laptop this problem has happened on, and it isn't my internet either as i've moved house twice. Steam suggested a new account as the solution. I asked if they would move all the games bought on my old account over, about £50 worth. They said no I had to buy them again. This is what people mean by awful customer service.

I don't think it's a good idea to play fm when you're 'commuting' then.

[Barside]

Reconnect and the turn to offline mode again.

There's something wrong with your computer. That's not normal behaviour. I suggest you consult a pro.

Can you not accept that as is the way with all PC software Steam cannot be be 100% perfect on every system?

[tattoman65]

Been using Steam with FM for 3 years now and never had problems.

No issues whatsoever playing with no internet connection either and no problems playing when connected to the internet too.

iv been useing saga forums for years .. never had problems .................. Then our accounts got Hacked

it will happen on steam ...not if but when ... more reasons not to use steam

[Kriss]

Haha, that's brilliant

Yeh, they offered him a date with the tooth fairy as compo too

[SeanNUFC]

iv been useing saga forums for years .. never had problems .................. Then our accounts got Hacked

it will happen on steam ...not if but when ... more reasons not to use steam

Ahhh, now the paranoia tactic. Nice.

[Foxo]

I don't think it's a good idea to play fm when you're 'commuting' then.

so you're basically saying I can't play FM when I mostly would do this year, as is my entire point. Well done for confirming it.

[Chris Ritchie]

so you're basically saying I can't play FM when I mostly would do this year, as is my entire point. Well done for confirming it.

Steam will tell you when it's appropriate to play the game you purchased, don't worry.

[SeanNUFC]

so you're basically saying I can't play FM when I mostly would do this year, as is my entire point. Well done for confirming it.

I can't play FM atm when i want to either, that's just the way life works sometimes. Would never bother playing it when travelling whatever the situation either.

[reece1973]

iv been useing saga forums for years .. never had problems .................. Then our accounts got Hacked

it will happen on steam ...not if but when ... more reasons not to use steam

All part of life im afraid.
You dont not use a bank card because of fear of someone cloning your card or not travel on a plane because someone may blow it up.

Jesus so many people cry over some things that are so little to worry about.

[Eugene Tyson]

Can you not accept that as is the way with all PC software Steam cannot be be 100% perfect on every system?

Yeh and neither will a lot of software.

If Steam doesn't work then take it up with Steam to resolve the issue or as said earlier SI want to help too so perhaps they can be contacted to accelerate your case?

But stating that Steam wont' be 100% perfect on every system is a no-brainer. No software can be guaranteed to work 100% of the time on any computer, including Fm12.

[tattoman65]

And my last take on all this is :

many games get downloaded and cracked ... but no one will buy rubbish games ..

if you had a cracked copy of a game that you really liked .. i bet you would wanna buy the game .. which happens in most cases ..

so this new plan by SI . is wrong and undermines there very own game

[Foxo]

I can't play FM atm when i want to either, that's just the way life works sometimes. Would never bother playing it when travelling whatever the situation either.

Well for this year it's the only chance I'm going to get and I'd rather that than give up FM completely. And Steam replied to my support ticket I submitted earlier asking for some clarification on what they could do. Well I say replied. They just marked it as resolved. It isn't bloody resolved lol!!!

[Chris Ritchie]

I can't play FM atm when i want to either, that's just the way life works sometimes. Would never bother playing it when travelling whatever the situation either.

You can't compare not being able to play FM due to being at work to a third party piece of software stopping you playing FM when there's no internet connection available Ridiculous argument.

[reece1973]

Its like when so many people cried over not being able to play online when the playstation network went down.

Yes it was annoying but bloody hell get a life and do something else for a few weeks.

[arsenal_2111]

And my last take on all this is :

many games get downloaded and cracked ... but no one will buy rubbish games ..

if you had a cracked copy of a game that you really liked .. i bet you would wanna buy the game .. which happens in most cases ..

so this new plan by SI . is wrong and undermines there very own game

As much as I'm against the move, the bold statement seems ridiculous.

[Barside]

Yeh and neither will a lot of software.

If Steam doesn't work then take it up with Steam to resolve the issue or as said earlier SI want to help too so perhaps they can be contacted to accelerate your case?

But stating that Steam wont' be 100% perfect on every system is a no-brainer. No software can be guaranteed to work 100% of the time on any computer, including Fm12.

I'm glad you agree as some of your posts came across as if it's all in our imagination & steam is a wonderful product that brings nothing but joy to the user.

Its like when so many people cried over not being able to play online when the playstation network went down.

Yes it was annoying but bloody hell get a life and do something else for a few weeks.

But this isn't a few weeks of service denial is it, legitimate potential purchaser's of the game are being denied access if they are unwilling or unable to activate the game via Steam.

[Chris Ritchie]

Yeh and neither will a lot of software.

If Steam doesn't work then take it up with Steam to resolve the issue or as said earlier SI want to help too so perhaps they can be contacted to accelerate your case?

But stating that Steam wont' be 100% perfect on every system is a no-brainer. No software can be guaranteed to work 100% of the time on any computer, including Fm12.

But the whole point is that Steam is unnecessary in order for FM to function and yet is capable of stopping it doing so.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Getting fairly brassed off with "I'm alright Jack" posts.

[Kriss]

You can't compare not being able to play FM due to being at work to a third party piece of software stopping you playing FM when there's no internet connection available Ridiculous argument.

So you seize on one persons unproven claim of a possible problem with steam as definite proof of the end of the world, seems you're struggling even to convince yourself

[SeanNUFC]

You can't compare not being able to play FM due to being at work to a third party piece of software stopping you playing FM when there's no internet connection available Ridiculous argument.

I'm saying if it isn't working well for him now it probably isn't the best idea in the first place. Understand yet?

[MSCCG]

I'm worried about how many machines I can install the game on and whether I can pass the game off to a friend when I buy FM13.

[Foxo]

I'm saying if it isn't working well for him now it probably isn't the best idea in the first place. Understand yet?

Steam hasn't worked in a satisfactory manner for 15 months. For 15 months I have pestered Steam for a response and some help on what to do. They haven't been able to identify what the issue is. They haven't contacted me with a satisfactory solution. Every so often they just mark my ticket as resolved when I submit one. If the customer service were decent, and the software worked fine on my system, I would have no issue with this. As it is, it doesn't.

[reece1973]

I'm worried about how many machines I can install the game on and whether I can pass the game off to a friend when I buy FM13.

pass it off to a friend??? so basically your happy to pay for the game but also happy to pass it around to your friends as long as its free for them??

[Chris Ritchie]

So you seize on one persons unproven claim of a possible problem with steam as definite proof of the end of the world, seems you're struggling even to convince yourself

I've known plenty of people to have issues with Steam. Not usually huge ones, but enough to occasionally prevent access to the games they've paid for. That's the primary reason I won't use Steam - any time it's stopping you using the products you own, even a few minutes, is too much.

Out of interest, what does anyone here have to gain by making up lies about Steam failing them?

[Kriss]

I'm worried about how many machines I can install the game on and whether I can pass the game off to a friend when I buy FM13.

As many as you want and no you can't.

[Lazaru5]

is this what we've got to look forward to?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14948701

[Kriss]

I've known plenty of people to have issues with Steam. Not usually huge ones, but enough to occasionally prevent access to the games they've paid for. That's the primary reason I won't use Steam - any time it's stopping you using the products you own, even a few minutes, is too much.

Out of interest, what does anyone here have to gain by making up lies about Steam failing them?

As I said before I can only quote my own experience (and that of everybody I know who uses Steam) I've used it for 3 years and never had any kind of issue whatsoever, nor have any of my friends that I'm aware of.

As always with emotive issues like this people are enormously economical with the truth at times, just trying to validate their point of view.

[milnerpoint]

But the whole point is that Steam is unnecessary in order for FM to function and yet is capable of stopping it doing so.

Capable yes, much like your CD drive used to be capable of stopping you playing FM, i wonder how many people have suffered CD drive problems over the years? Did they blame SI for that as well? Yes steam may go down, so far in the 3 years i have used it i have never once had an issue with it, so the chancs of their network going down are very slim. If you properly set up the offline mode you should not have a problem, if you do SI will help you with the problem, this is being blown all out of proportion.

[Eugene Tyson]

I've known plenty of people to have issues with Steam. Not usually huge ones, but enough to occasionally prevent access to the games they've paid for. That's the primary reason I won't use Steam - any time it's stopping you using the products you own, even a few minutes, is too much.

Out of interest, what does anyone here have to gain by making up lies about Steam failing them?

People aren't making it up. They are reitterating falacies by others without knowing the truth.

Fact is. Steam is the safer option for installing the game. And people are against it because of unfounded truths.

[Wiggins' Young Boys]

As I said before I can only quote my own experience (and that of everybody I know who uses Steam) I've used it for 3 years and never had any kind of issue whatsoever, nor have any of my friends that I'm aware of.

As always with emotive issues like this people are enormously economical with the truth at times, just trying to validate their point of view.

you've been on a forum where untold people over the years have had issues with steam...

[Kriss]

is this what we've got to look forward to?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14948701

As far as Sony are concerned it would appear so, I'm amazed they can do that tbh.

[MSCCG]

pass it off to a friend??? so basically your happy to pay for the game but also happy to pass it around to your friends as long as its free for them??

yeah... I wouldn't be playing it anymore and they want it. Get a free meal out of it or something I guess. Everyone has fun.

As many as you want and no you can't.

Thanks. So the game will be tethered to my steam account? What if I uninstall/deactivate it? Would really kill the second-hand game market I suppose. And of course you'd have to pay for separate copies in the same household... Though I'm the only one that plays it in mine.

[Chris Ritchie]

As I said before I can only quote my own experience (and that of everybody I know who uses Steam) I've used it for 3 years and never had any kind of issue whatsoever, nor have any of my friends that I'm aware of.

As always with emotive issues like this people are enormously economical with the truth at times, just trying to validate their point of view.

All you're doing is using your own experience as a basis to accuse those who say they haven't had such an experience of lying. How are we to know that you're not being enormously economical with the truth because you do like Steam? It seems bizarre that you're openly accusing users of lying without any evidence at all.

[Lazaru5]

As far as Sony are concerned it would appear so, I'm amazed they can do that tbh.

and you think Valve/SEGA/SI won't follow suit? If 21st October turns into FM Holocaust Day, don't you think they'll want to cover their arses? Of course they will...

[Foxo]

Yeah I'm not making it up, I'm genuinely annoyed and irritated by this, as a satisfactory solution could easily be provided by Steam if they merged two accounts so I didn't lose £50 of games. Every suggestion I have made, they have turned down as "it doesn't follow their protocol." I thought it was just me with the issue of Steam turning offline at regular intervals just when it felt like it. It would appear not. And on the site I own, many people have had issues with Steam not loading games properly, although only temporary issues. I'm the consumer, they should provide good service, and in my instance they haven't

[Kriss]

you've been on a forum where untold people over the years have had issues with steam...

Recently I've seen virtually none tbh, a lot of those quoted today are quite historical by their originators own admission.

Obviously we aren't going to get the current picture until FM12 releases, from my own experiences over the last 3 years I'm optimistic.

[Chris Ritchie]

Fact is. Steam is the safer option for installing the game. And people are against it because of unfounded truths.

Sorry - safer than what? Putting a DVD in the drive and installing the game?

I'm against it because it's unnecessary, provides me no benefit that I'm interested in, and has the potential to deny me access to the game I've purchased. I'm not saying it will do, but it can do. I don't see which part of that is unfounded.

[Kriss]

and you think Valve/SEGA/SI won't follow suit? If 21st October turns into FM Holocaust Day, don't you think they'll want to cover their arses? Of course they will...

You're stretching that to imagine something similar on FM release day, it's not even really the same subject matter

[nessi]

Thank you but no thank you. Being forced to install 3rd party software to play a game - even if that's my favorite game - is just unacceptable. An kinda dystopian too.

[themadsheep2001]

and you think Valve/SEGA/SI won't follow suit? If 21st October turns into FM Holocaust Day, don't you think they'll want to cover their arses? Of course they will...

Now this is utter scaremongering, strange coming from you since you often took people to task when they had this kind of approach over various parts of FM itself

[Eugene Tyson]

Clearly not unnecesary since two software companies, si and sega, are both recommending it.

Whether you're interested in the benefits or not is beyond th point.


Again, if you're denied access to the game take it up with Steam. In the years I've used Steam not an issue.



It is unfounded because you haven't suffered it yourself, nor have you known anyone personally that has suffered this.

Which makes it unfounded.

[Wiggins' Young Boys]

I would like the think there is enough voice in this thread alone, let alone whats likely going to happen on release day, for SI/SEGA to regret this decision

night

[drevil1969]

Some people dont realise when they have a good thing......

Let me explain that comment.

As someone who never got to play fm11 due to a pc that wasent upto it I have been reduced to playing fm10 on an old knackered pc, very slowly, in 2d and small database. Therefore I cannot wait for fm12 to come out as I very soon will be getting a new pc. Double bonus, new pc and get to play football manager again!

I think people are being really ungrateful towards si and sega. I do not work for the company, I feel I should add and myself have had problems with steam, to the point where at first I could not play fm2010. Thanks to support from these forums I eventually got it to play. I do not know of any other game that is supported the same way that football manager is and for people to react the way they have seems so over the top. What exactly is the problem in having steam authenticate the game, it takes up hardly any HD space so your not losing anything.

People that have said they will not buy the game, thats ridiculous, talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face! You really dont know how ungrateful you sound. Remember this is from someone who has not been on these forums for a while cos most info wasent of relevance to fm2010, I know what its like to be without football manager for a while.

I only read the first 5 pages of the reaction to having to join steam and from what I can gather people seem to think its some kind of conspiracy (now I could talk for hours on my theories on that, I love 'em) Now wether it is what people think it is or not (which personally I dont think it is, I mean what would they really gain?) so what? 99.9% of people will be able to play the game like normal so whats the problem? And even if it is some conspiracy, whats the problem in that? dont people think its a little silly?

I do have one question that I noticed wasent answered, due to the number of claims of conspiracies and people saying they wont buy it etc. Someone suggested that if it was bought through steam and regular updates etc or something were put in, that it would be harder for people to make pirate copies etc. Is that not an option? thats a question to sega or si.

Also I think if people react this way I really wouldnt be surprised if the support for this game from sega and the developers started to wain. I mean why bother saying things and supporting things if all your going to get is abuse, would you do that if it was you?

Back to my opening sentence, some people dont realise a good thing when they have it.

[Kriss]

Sorry - safer than what? Putting a DVD in the drive and installing the game?

I'm against it because it's unnecessary, provides me no benefit that I'm interested in, and has the potential to deny me access to the game I've purchased. I'm not saying it will do, but it can do. I don't see which part of that is unfounded.

There's a good car analogy there, but I'd get slaughtered in the Mods room if I used it

If the truth be told it's unfounded unless it actually happens, then of course you have every right to curse Steam/Sega/SI et al, but to cursethem because something is feasible seems verging on the paranoid to me.

[themadsheep2001]

I would like the think there is enough voice in this thread alone, let alone whats going to happen on release day, for SI/SEGA to regret this decision

night

i doubt it very much. Any regrets will only appear if sales are truly dented, or real problems occur with the release and playing of the game

[Foxo]

@Eugene my point is I've taken it up with Steam, it's like talking to a wall. I suggested maybe they could identify the 2nd account by checking the IP. The reply I got was to the effect of that they hadn't considered that. Hopefully SI are actually able to make Steam do something to make me able to play FM12.

[Chris Ritchie]

Clearly not unnecesary since two software companies, si and sega, are both recommending it.

Whether you're interested in the benefits or not is beyond th point.


Again, if you're denied access to the game take it up with Steam. In the years I've used Steam not an issue.



It is unfounded because you haven't suffered it yourself, nor have you known anyone personally that has suffered this.

Which makes it unfounded.

Are you not reading my posts at all? The ones where I've mentioned that I do know people who've personally suffered issues with accessing their games on Steam?

SI and Sega recommending it doesn't make it necessary to run the game. "Take it up with Steam" if there's a problem? The whole point is that THERE WOULDN'T BE A STEAM PROBLEM IF STEAM WASN'T FORCED UPON ME.

[heathxxx]

I dislike any third party software and I'm not fond of Steam either, when it comes to games. Anything which requires an internet connection to activate or play is isn't necessarily the end of the world, but it can be very inconvenient for a lot of people, not to mention prohibitive if internet access isn't readily available.

The sad fact is though, whilst there are high levels of piracy, publishers of software will continue to seek ways to try to protect their investment.

Throughout this "discussion" there have been comparisons used to try explaining the logic of using copy protection methods by software companies. Distribution of software through piracy is indeed theft. It's theft of intellectual property and in breach of copyright laws. If someone walked into a game store, picked up a game off the shelf and walked out of the store without paying, it would be considered theft - plain an simple. Downloading pirated software illegally, without paying the creators of that software is the same thing, just from a different angle of approach. It's often easier to catch and prosecute a shoplifter, than it is to trace and prosecute a nameless, faceless person hiding in the ether of the internet.

Unfortunately there aren't currently any real solutions to prevent piracy of software. The single biggest reason is the internet and the ease in which information and data can be shared, distributed and downloaded. Some countries will try to be vigilant, tracking down and prosecuting offenders, whilst others really don't seem to care, which brings the whole process of trying to prevent piracy tumbling down.

In the meantime, the creators of intellectual property and the copyright holders will take whatever steps they can to protect the source product.

As "customers" we may not like the measures they take, nor the methods they use, but can we really blame them for taking such steps? It's naïve indeed to think that companies will rely on "trust" alone, especially if evidence of piracy is on the increase.

The most valid point I think someone has raised in this thread so far, relates to pricing in/to different countries, even via Steam itself. I'm not sure how much of the difference relates to local taxes, levies, rate of monitary exchange in different countries (which one would expect for a boxed copy), but I would have thought that if Steam is based in the USA, it would be considered the "point of origin" and therefore prices should be the same, wherever someone is accessing their site from?

My best advice to anyone concerned about the prices to download the game from Steam, is to simply shop around, be it for a physical copy or digital download. You'll still have to activate the game on Steam, but it doesn't stop you buying it elsewhere.

[Eugene Tyson]

I've had issues with Steam. Especially in not recognising my acccount and with Steam Guard. I got sorted with no issues. No reason why you shouldn't.

Problem with checking IPs is that it only leads back to a hub for the service provider. Not to specific computer. They'd have to get a subpoena to get that information from the Internet Provider company, and can only do so if someone is suspected of a crime.

So no they can't check the IP.

[Lazaru5]

Now this is utter scaremongering, strange coming from you since you often took people to task when they had this kind of approach over various parts of FM itself

yeah mike, I'm angry, really, really angry... I've played this game for years and I feel like I've just been kicked in the teeth.... forcing me to use something I don't want to use is, quite simply, unacceptable to me. All these people saying "I haven't had a problem", great.. bully for you.. you are not me, nor would you want to be. I have had problems with Steam, I used it for FM09 - I hated the experience despite loving the game, as many others have elaborated the problems are far too common to give Steam anything like the monika "reliable software". Given the risks that appear to be inherent with owning a Steam account and running the software, I'd rather not take the risk. I like to be in control, with FM12 that's taken away from me, so I won't buy FM12.

And who's to say, if it does all go tits-up on release day? What's to stop Steam sticking two-fingers up to you all and saying you can't play the game and you can't do nothing about it? Sure it might be seen as scaremongering, but giving up control is never a good thing... never...

[Eugene Tyson]

Are you not reading my posts at all? The ones where I've mentioned that I do know people who've personally suffered issues with accessing their games on Steam?

SI and Sega recommending it doesn't make it necessary to run the game. "Take it up with Steam" if there's a problem? The whole point is that THERE WOULDN'T BE A STEAM PROBLEM IF STEAM WASN'T FORCED UPON ME.

Well there might be a problem with FM12 if it wasn't for Steam. Do you want to go into all causalities and probalities of what might or might not happen?


Yeh I read your post where you claim to know people that have suffered loss through Steam.

[Foxo]

I've had issues with Steam. Especially in not recognising my acccount and with Steam Guard. I got sorted with no issues. No reason why you shouldn't.

Problem with checking IPs is that it only leads back to a hub for the service provider. Not to specific computer. They'd have to get a subpoena to get that information from the Internet Provider company, and can only do so if someone is suspected of a crime.

So no they can't check the IP.

OK so fair enough they can't do that. I also suggested they give me a name and password to sign up for a 2nd account with. They weren't keen on that suggestion. They almost seem keen for me to set up a 100% totally independent account and repurchase the games I already own on the 1st account, rather than attempt to fix the first accounts issue, whatever it is, as it seems they have utterly no idea, and neither do I. All I know is I want those games and I'm not spending £50 to get them all over again when i already own them. I never had an issue with Steam before this, but this has been running for ages.

[Eugene Tyson]

They couldn't possibly offer a suggestion for your account name, as that would be an invasion of your security.

And retrieving your login - wll how would they know it's you? It could be anyone. I could email them from littlefox at gmail dot com and say that my account was hacked.

They have no proof who I am or who you are.


If you purchase the game online then keep your recipts, Print them out or store them on the computer. It's the only way for any online purchase.

[Barside]

As far as Sony are concerned it would appear so, I'm amazed they can do that tbh.

They can't which is why there is an opt out.

[tom_numbers]

Time to reconsider my purchase. I like paying money to support developers, I don't like paying money to support Steam. Hell, whether sales go up or down, suits will just blame piracy (even though Steam doesn't stop piracy).

You don't have to pay Steam. If you acquire a boxed copy from any of the umpteen retailers, then the money paid will be split between the seller and the developer, and you only need Steam to activate it. If you do that, Steam don't see a single penny of your money.

[heathxxx]

OK so fair enough they can't do that. I also suggested they give me a name and password to sign up for a 2nd account with. They weren't keen on that suggestion. They almost seem keen for me to set up a 100% totally independent account and repurchase the games I already own on the 1st account, rather than attempt to fix the first accounts issue, whatever it is, as it seems they have utterly no idea, and neither do I. All I know is I want those games and I'm not spending £50 to get them all over again when i already own them. I never had an issue with Steam before this, but this has been running for ages.

If they have acknowledged you're the legitimate owner of the problematic account, at no time have you or they suggested a refund for the games you're now unable to access? (Providing they were purchased through Steam)

If this is a fault with their service, then surely they can credit your "new" account, in order to re-purchase what you've lost?

I've no idea what their terms of service are, but if they're unwilling to resolve an issue with their service, at your financial loss, I would have thought you have some legal redress?

[Foxo]

They couldn't possibly offer a suggestion for your account name, as that would be an invasion of your security.

And retrieving your login - wll how would they know it's you? It could be anyone. I could email them from littlefox at gmail dot com and say that my account was hacked.

They have no proof who I am or who you are.


If you purchase the game online then keep your recipts, Print them out or store them on the computer. It's the only way for any online purchase.

I know I could get hacked easily by doing it and it breaches security etc, but they weren't coming up with ideas, so someone had to. I've saved the receipts, hardly any use as they won't do anything with them if I provide them when I create a 2nd account. I've asked that one too.

Edit reply to Heath: I've asked for a refund. They just marked the ticket resolved and didn't do anything. They drive me nuts. I asked for a credit to a new account too, they said they couldn't prove the new account was me to be able to do it. I'd take legal action if it was more than £50. Will cost me more than that to sort it

[Sikker]

It's not my computer, it's my Steam account. This is my 3rd laptop this problem has happened on, and it isn't my internet either as i've moved house twice. Steam suggested a new account as the solution. I asked if they would move all the games bought on my old account over, about £50 worth. They said no I had to buy them again. This is what people mean by awful customer service.

I don't think it's a good idea to play fm when you're 'commuting' then.

And post #821 by SeanNUFC takes the award for being the most stupid post in this whole thread. Log on to Steam and claim your award.

[tom_numbers]

if there is no steam layer, there are no steam problems. WE DONT WANT STEAM. give us another option, If I buy a game in a shop I want to play it from the CD/DVD, when I buy a film DVD it does not need 3rd party software to play in my DVD player and Im sure piracy is just as big a problem in the movie market.

DVDs bring a whole range of third party encryptions and protections to stop you from being able to rip them, but you're never informed of them. Would you feel the same way if before any film, you were given a large screen informing you that the DVD Copy Control Association had protected this disc, and that your DVD player had to have their certified software to read it?

[dfa120374]

I'm not sure about Steam as I have never used it before so I just need to clear up a couple of things.

1) Where do you download Steam? I've not looked as of yet but I presume there is a link on here that you can download it from?

2) With the whole registering the game through Steam this time am I right in thinking that once the game has been registered through Steam, you change the settings in your Steam account to "Play Off-line" then you can just log out and you WON'T need an internet connection to actually play the game as long as Steam is still installed onto your computer? I have an internet connection but it's just incase it goes down for any period of time I'm just wondering.

3) What is Steam REALLY like as I have heard some stories that it is not the best feature and have heard other people say that it's not any hassle at all?

I'm steadily reading through this thread and have only just started page 3 and up to that point it seems as if there is a bit of confusion as a lot of people think that you need to be actually logged in all the time on Steam even to play the game off-line, but I have picked up the explanation by SI that as soon as your settings in Steam are set to play off-line, you don't have to actually log into Steam again. Until you want to download the patches that is.

If anyone can tell me this I'd be grateful because I still want to give the game a try even though I'd have to set up a Steam account now as I enjoy playing the FM series too much to let something like this stop me.

Also I appologise if any of these questions have been answered already, but like I say I am only on page 3 of this thread so far so I still have a lot of reading to do

[pigfacemonkeyman]

People aren't making it up. They are reitterating falacies by others without knowing the truth.

Fact is. Steam is the safer option for installing the game. And people are against it because of unfounded truths.

How can it be safer than a disk?

[Neil Brock]

1 - Steam can be downloaded via the Steam website or the software will be included on the FM12 disc
2- Exactly as you described yep
3 - I've used it for a number of games and never had any problems with it. Others may have different stories, but then that's the same thing for any product. I mean ask Xbox360 console owners - some will say it's amazing, others will bemoan the red rings of death. Every product or piece of software may have a problem somewhere along the line, but I'd say the majority of people find Steam to be a relatively hassle free piece of software.

[Bertie BG]

What else do you have? Force? You can't make people pay for software. They hold the purse strings - push them, and they are likely to just turn away.for the hackers to break it, but to the pirates, it's a matter of downloading a cracked executable. You can't make that hard. Besides, with Steam installation and activation, you've arguably made it harder than downloading a crack... rest of post snipped

The argument about whether piracy helps "spread the word" and therefore increases sales against whether it restricts sales is an old one and one that many more expert people (probably including yourself) than myself have failed to agree on. There's evidence going both ways and I'm not one of those experts so I'm not going to try and say your wrong. Suffice to say that the experts employed by SEGA who were involved in researching and making this decision have concluded otherwise, hence this decision.

Personally, my instinct (and before I get jumped on I'll say again that I wasn't personally involved in this decision so my ignorance is not representative of those who did) is that piracy results in more lost sales than it gains and I believe that mainly based off the evidence that so many more people pirate the game than actually buy it.

My feeling is that many of the people who pirates recommend, also pirate the game (they've likely been told how to do so by the person who referred them anyway) and so that the numbers of sales gained through word of mouth is likely outweighed by those who would pay for the game if there wasn't a free pirated version available for them to use.

It would only take a small percentage of those who pirate the game to buy the game instead to dramatically increase sales figures (there is plenty of evidence to suggest this bit) and I would be very surprised if it's not more than a small percentage of people who pirate the game who only do so because it's easily accessible and free (that bit isn't fact, just my opinion). I also believe that many people pirating the game, love playing it and if that if there was no pirated alternative would buy the game legally instead (also my opinion). If you can believe that (I'm not saying you should, just that I do) then it's only a small jump to believe that making pirated versions less easily accessible leads to increased sales.

I don't have hard evidence on that, as I said, I'm not one of the experts who was consulted (thank god!), that's just my opinion and that's why I personally support the decision and feel that any steps we take to reduce piracy is a good thing.

I do think there's been some misconceptions with Steam though. I've been using Steam for nearly all my PC gaming for years, both online and offline, and it's always been great but especially in the last year or so it's improved dramatically and has sorted many of the bugbears that people off a few years ago. It uses minimal resources and just sits there quietly only being used if you want it to be. For me it also adds a lot of benefits to the experience of playing FM (the in-built community options for instance are great) and I see it more as my games library, much like some people might see iTunes (or equivalent software, I know how much some people hate iTunes!) as their music library for instance than a DRM method.

One thing I do need to refute that has been posted multiple times in this thread is that this is all about being money-grabbing corporate giants. Anyone who's ever met any of us who work at SI or SEGA would never say that's the case I'm sure of that. The games industry is notoriously low paid in comparison to many other software industries (partly because it's so competitive as so many people want to work in it) and I certainly do not do this job for the paycheck (I'd be damn stupid if I did ). I'm sure I can speak for everyone else I work with when saying we do this job because we love Football Manager, want to keep improving it and feel lucky that we have the opportunity to do so. That's the motivation of every single person I know who works on this project and to say otherwise is just plain wrong.

[Neil Brock]

I'm done for the night but have to say I wholeheartedly agree 100% with what Bertie BG just posted. Summed it up better than I could.

[tom_numbers]

And who's to say, if it does all go tits-up on release day? What's to stop Steam sticking two-fingers up to you all and saying you can't play the game and you can't do nothing about it? Sure it might be seen as scaremongering, but giving up control is never a good thing... never...

Then SI, as usual, will probably respond in kind. They'll talk to Steam about why they've done this, then if no solution can be found, presumably release a patch that removes the necessity of Steam. This should be followed by sorting out replacements for everyone that Steam has screwed over, at the expense of Steam, and they'll never use them again.

Belive it or not, it is in SI's best interests to have players playing the game. In the worst case scenario, Steam are shown up to be a negative impact to be associated with, and they're never used again.

[Dune297]

You really should read my posts before spouting off...

New could mean two separate things. It could mean you bought the computer recently making it new. That doesn't mean the parts in the computer are new, they could be five years old. If you actaully told me the parts I might not call it five years old, but until then, I'll assume it's five years old based on the lack of information I'm receiving.

[0gris]

As the other thread closed i guess i'll drop in here. I'll say this once again.

Do not use steam as a tool to play FM, use steam as a tool to discover other games as well. You get regular deals where you can drop 2€ for a game that you can play in short bursts(and is going to give you a lot more fun than that cuppa you ordered in a bar that you really didnt need to). Use it as something to experience many other worthy games as well.

Steam is also a great thing to support the developers, they get a bigger share of the profit compared to you buying physical copies.

Also, SI gets a LOT more control with steam compared to physical copies.

[Lazaru5]

New could mean two separate things. It could mean you bought the computer recently making it new. That doesn't mean the parts in the computer are new, they could be five years old. If you actaully told me the parts I might not call it five years old, but until then, I'll assume it's five years old based on the lack of information I'm receiving.

which bit of "specifically to play FM for the next 5 years" are you intentionally ignoring? I dare say that the specs of my computer are comparable or even better than yours... I don't, right now, feel the urge to share them with you though, ok?

[aderow]

I like steam. I've bought some 70 games on it.

At the same time I just don't think that people should be forced into using it if they don't want to. I understand SI's fear, but it still makes me feel a little uncomfortable.

[Dune297]

which bit of "specifically to play FM for the next 5 years" are you intentionally ignoring? I dare say that the specs of my computer are comparable or even better than yours... I don't, right now, feel the urge to share them with you though, ok?

I doubt they are comparable or better than mine but okay. FM doesn't take many resources so I consider that a moot point.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

DVDs bring a whole range of third party encryptions and protections to stop you from being able to rip them, but you're never informed of them. Would you feel the same way if before any film, you were given a large screen informing you that the DVD Copy Control Association had protected this disc, and that your DVD player had to have their certified software to read it?

And do you have to download these from the internet and have them running in order to play your game?

[pauly1616]

haha brilliant- poll closed at 151 "I hate its" and growing.

[0gris]

And everyone stating it will buy it and nothing has been achieved apart from people moaning again. Hey, anyone remember the 11.3 patch fiasco?

Yeah. Just the way it is

[tom_numbers]

And do you have to download these from the internet and have them running in order to play your game?

If what one of the mods said earlier in this thread is true (I'm sorry, but I can't remember who or when), a copy of Steam could be shipped on the play disc, and yes, the 'activation' does have to be left open throughout.

I agree, it's a flawed comparision, but it just seems that Steam has been singled out as the worst third party software ever simply for being the only one not to shroud itself in secrecy.

[Boudy123]

I understand Lazaru5's anger I too dont want to install extra software as minimal as it would be on your computer, I just want my laptop to download stuff, play on Football Manager & go on the internet, I dont want anything else takeing up on my CPU, I also think its wrong we are being forced into installing Steam to play a game we all love to play on just to make the rich richer, I will probably not buy it out of annoyance for this latest setback, I will continue to play on FM2011 and not pay 30 quid for one new feature that is worth buying it for but no other features that make it much different to FM2011, the people they gain from buying the game instead of getting a pirated copy will not be as many loyal customers who are put off by this so you will end up losing money anyway. Im quiete angry but Im not as mad as some on here and I just will not buy it simples.

[0gris]

I understand Lazaru5's anger I too dont want to install extra software as minimal as it would be on your computer, I just want my laptop to download stuff, play on Football Manager & go on the internet, I dont want anything else takeing up on my CPU, I also think its wrong we are being forced into installing Steam to play a game we all love to play on just to make the rich richer, I will probably not buy it out of annoyance for this latest setback, I will continue to play on FM2011 and not pay 30 quid for one new feature that is worth buying it for but no other features that make it much different to FM2011, the people they gain from buying the game instead of getting a pirated copy will not be as many loyal customers who are put off by this so you will end up losing money anyway. Im quiete angry but Im not as mad as some on here and I just will not buy it simples.

Idle steam takes up practically no system resources so even your laptop wont be badly affected by this. No idea what you mean by making the rich richer? Could you elaborate?

[Bertie BG]

If what one of the mods said earlier in this thread is true (I'm sorry, but I can't remember who or when), a copy of Steam could be shipped on the play disc, and yes, the 'activation' does have to be left open throughout.

As far as I'm aware, the steam client will be bundled on the disc for those who don't already have it. I'm not 100% sure though and it being half two on a Friday night/ Saturday morning it's probably not going to be quick to get the answer. Hopefully someone else can confirm.

[Bertie BG]

just to make the rich richer

I wish I was rich! We're trying to stop people pirating our games, that's all!

[0gris]

Bertie, just a short question, what steam features will FM12 utilise. Can we expect the usual steamwork achievements, or are we going to get steam cloud and further steamworks features such as a server browser as well? Stats tracking and such as well would be pretty nifty.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

It would only take a small percentage of those who pirate the game to buy the game instead to dramatically increase sales figures (there is plenty of evidence to suggest this bit) and I would be very surprised if it's not more than a small percentage of people who pirate the game who only do so because it's easily accessible and free (that bit isn't fact, just my opinion). I also believe that many people pirating the game, love playing it and if that if there was no pirated alternative would buy the game legally instead (also my opinion). If you can believe that (I'm not saying you should, just that I do) then it's only a small jump to believe that making pirated versions less easily accessible leads to increased sales.

I hope you trust the projected amount of lost customers expected, against the amount of pirates you hope to turn into customers, due to this course of action, because it's looking pretty shaky to me.