A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[milnerpoint]

I agree with you, and I was probably wrong to put a number on it, it would have been better if I said something like "once a month or so" - because honestly, that's what seems to happen to me when I use offline mode (and granted, I don't use it that much, just the odd day or for an hour the odd day - which again probably doesn't help its stability.)

I certainly am making an effort to help others who have concerns with Steam in this thread.

Can we both sit down and sing kumbaya now??

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Dont you worry yourself pet, stress will only make things worse, if you would like in future ill PM all my posts to your inbox, just incase you miss any of them, i would hate to think of you getting worried because of an online forum post.

I wouldn't want to put you to any trouble, or use up the valuable time you need to finish your incomplete post. Thank you for your concern however, but I don't suffer from stress since I started letting off steam.

[milnerpoint]

Well i was right some people really do need an education lol, look the word up on google and then please come back and tell me i spelt it wrong again ... oh please do that. I would love for you to come back and say it again lol.

cheers,
kymsheba

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/combating

[ladbroke]

I don't have access to the internet except when at work, and when at my sisters. My PC is not equipped to be carried to an internet connection to activate a game.
I won't be able to activate the game, so therefore may as well not bother buying.

Has Sega and Sports Interactive actually even considered those without the internet? Or do they think everyone has it now? Not everyone can afford the internet. With regards to internet, 99% of them you sign up to a yearly contract, something I can't afford to do right now. Though a game I enjoy(ed) I can afford once a year to play instead if I saved for it.
So what do Sega and SI suggest I do then?

p.s. if this has been answered in here, I have not seen it as its a really long thread, and not got the time during my lunch hour to read it all.

[milnerpoint]

I wouldn't want to put you to any trouble, or use up the valuable time you need to finish your incomplete post. Thank you for your concern however, but I don't suffer from stress since I started letting off steam.

hahahaha you got me there, letting off steam!

[eddymunster]

we've had various car analogies, someone compared this to Tony Blair sending us to war, why the hell not compare it to terrorism???

I'm surprised no-one has compared Steam to Nazi Germany yet to be honest .

But there are valid points on here none the less. I don't agree with the "I don't like steam" argument. What I do have an issue with, is being forced to use it and then being told it's to combat piracy.

Analogy time (I like this one):

Using steam to combat piracy is like building a 1 foot fence around your house and your neighbours house to stop burglars stealing your stuff. Your neighbour says it'll make no difference and he doesn't want to be forced to step over it every day but you do it anyway. When the real motive for building it is because you're mates with the fence building guy and it's mutually beneficial (not to combat burglars ).

[afced7]

I don't have access to the internet except when at work, and when at my sisters. My PC is not equipped to be carried to an internet connection to activate a game.
I won't be able to activate the game, so therefore may as well not bother buying.

Has Sega and Sports Interactive actually even considered those without the internet? Or do they think everyone has it now? Not everyone can afford the internet. With regards to internet, 99% of them you sign up to a yearly contract, something I can't afford to do right now. Though a game I enjoy(ed) I can afford once a year to play instead if I saved for it.
So what do Sega and SI suggest I do then?

p.s. if this has been answered in here, I have not seen it as its a really long thread, and not got the time during my lunch hour to read it all.

So you can't spare £3? That's all it takes to buy an hour of BT Openzone, assuming you can use wi-fi. I'm sure they did consider it, but the percentage of people without ANY internet access is likely extremely small.

[CaptainPlanet]

Marginally. But the fear of getting caught is what will put people off, not making it marginally more difficult.

If you want to stop piracy people who do it need to be caught and prosecuted.

Well yes, the biggest incentive to stop people breaking the law is for there to be punishment. But that doesn't mean any other way of combating the problem should be ignored.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/combating

Wonder how long it'll take before he admits he was wrong

[eddymunster]

Wonder how long it'll take before he admits he was wrong

I will not be forced into using a 3rd party website to check someone elses spelling!

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Am I the only one that doesn't understand why someone who objects to third party software would then use a torrent client from a third party and entrust the security of their system to a hacked game?

Apparently not, but what is your point?

[milnerpoint]

I will not be forced into using a 3rd party website to check someone elses spelling!

hahahahahahahaha
finally we have some banter in this thread, good stuff guys

[kymsheba]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/combating

look at the web page you linked and read along the bold section ... oh look it's the word: combatting!!!!

combatting: present participle of com·bat


Verb: Take action to reduce, destroy, or prevent (something undesirable).



cheers,
kymsheba

[eddymunster]

hahahahahahahaha
finally we have some banter in this thread, good stuff guys

I'm a bit disappointed that no one has congratulated me on my excellent fence analogy to be honest.

[pikeal]

Why don't they just bring back LASERLOK ??

[asdpoo]

Oh, crap. I've been using Steams for years. Yesterday my internet stopped and I decided to see what all the fuss is about. I tried to run FM, got a message from Steam with the option to run in offline mode, which just produced another error message
Good thing my connection is super stable, but I wouldn't count on the offline mode.

[Loversleaper]

So you can't spare £3? That's all it takes to buy an hour of BT Openzone, assuming you can use wi-fi. I'm sure they did consider it, but the percentage of people without ANY internet access is likely extremely small.

Yeah, because naturally everyone lives in England...

[CaptainPlanet]

look at the web page you linked and read along the bold section ... oh look it's the word: combatting!!!!

combatting: present participle of com·bat


Verb: Take action to reduce, destroy, or prevent (something undesirable).



cheers,
kymsheba

http://www.ctc.usma.edu/

[eddymunster]

http://www.ctc.usma.edu/

hahaha very good

[afced7]

Yeah, because naturally everyone lives in England...

And naturally there aren't similar alternatives in other countries.

[Loversleaper]

And naturally there aren't similar alternatives in other countries.

And naturally you've been everywhere to make that assumption...

[eddymunster]

look at the web page you linked and read along the bold section ... oh look it's the word: combatting!!!!

combatting: present participle of com·bat


Verb: Take action to reduce, destroy, or prevent (something undesirable).



cheers,
kymsheba

That's a typo.

[kymsheba]

http://www.ctc.usma.edu/

Oh my god!!! He is now trying to tell me an american spelling is correct lol, would not trust a 'septic tank' version of the English language if my life depended on it lol.

cheers,
kymsheba

[jakobx]

-Not sure what you mean by "works best when you are online"? It works exactly the same if you're in offline or online mode, doesn't it?
-You should have separate Steam accounts. And purchase a version of the game for each account. That's what's required.
-If you remain in Offline Mode you won't get the Patches.
-Again Offline Mode and you won't get Patches.
-It's now a requirement of the game, it will be up to you to have sufficient internet connection or download space on your account. I'm sure you're resourceful enough to sort this out, perhaps using a friends internet connection or something?
-How do you know? It hasn't been released yet? I certainly hope you aren't advocating that people wait for the pirated version rather than installing a legitimate version of the game using the methods specified by SI and Sega for playing the game through Steam?

1.) You go to offline mode when you are online and then have to check if the game still works. (no pending downloads etc etc...check their FAQ about offline mode). Its not something you can rely on if your net connection dies unexpectedly. (not really a problem for me...its usually steam that has problems not my line)
2.) Im sorry but i cant manage 50 different accounts. Some people have way more games than i do. Should they have 200 different accounts?
3.) True, until offline mode decides it wants to check online again. Besides how can you know you dont want the new patch if you dont try it first?
4.) True, but still an inconvenience. Not a major problem i agree.
5.) Should people move just to play FM? I dont have that problem but many others do. Just cause i dont have that problem doesnt mean its not a problem.
6.) Steam is very poor copy protection system. All steam games are pirated the moment they are released. Check the torrent sites on the day of release if you dont believe me. And no...im not advocating such a thing. Just stating that going with steam only because of piracy is a very flawed argument. Most likely its just a lie to hide whatever their true motive is.

[Kriss]

look at the web page you linked and read along the bold section ... oh look it's the word: combatting!!!!

combatting: present participle of com·bat


Verb: Take action to reduce, destroy, or prevent (something undesirable).



cheers,
kymsheba

Either spelling is actually acceptable though one is allegedly British and the other American so I stand half corrected however as I'm a Moderator I can spell "banned" so don't get too cheeky

[afced7]

And naturally you've been everywhere to make that assumption...

No but surprisingly enough I am aware of the existence of wi-fi hotspots in other countries, therefore its reasonable to assume that a similar service exists in other countries.

[kymsheba]

Either spelling is actually acceptable though one is allegedly British and the other American so I stand half corrected however as I'm a Moderator I can spell "banned" so don't get too cheeky

lol, all in good fun

Cheers,
kymsheba

[phnompenhandy]

we've got it all in this thread, car analogies, essays, conspiricy theories, hang around im sure we will move onto how Miles is practically rimming everyones glass with this decision, you gotta love the GD forum

2500 posts - have we not invoked Godwin's Law yet?

[pigfacemonkeyman]

yes i agree they can't go stating figures where there is no way to know the amount of piracy, it is impossible.

cheers,
kymsheba

Don't they put tracking codes into the software? I know some softwares do. And it states that information such as computer, hardware, location etc. for possible false registration key will be transmitted to a website and they can then sort those by country and the amount of people.

Of course that is an estimate, as not everyone would be online. But it's one possible way.

Thank you for the example Eugene. You are in agreement right?

[eddymunster]

2500 posts - have we not invoked Godwin's Law yet?

I mentioned it a few posts up. Still took about 2450 posts though so not bad going really.

[Crispypaul]

I believe one of the reason's Steam has been taken up this year is that its got to the stage where internet access is near universal and therefore it is commercially viable to do this.

Of course there are exceptions, but you can't cater for everyone.

[Scab]

Steam's patching system works under the assumption that the latest game version is the "best", i.e. bug fixed and as-intended. Thus this is pushed out whenever possible and any older, buggy versions are phased out. While this obviously eliminates patching choice for us users - arguably not desirable - let's not lose sight of the fact that it's only really considered a problem due to bad patching resulting from inadequate testing. To me that's the core issue to address, not Steam's perhaps overly idealistic patching strategy. There shouldn't be a reason to want to use an outdated version - that suggests they've messed something up in the newer one.

In the case of FM I suppose there may be subjective reasons, like maybe preferring previous ME behavior, but I think it's worth at least understanding that the system is what it is to make sure players have a smooth experience with as few bugs and as many fixes in place as possible, not to limit choice or force anything through. Xbox Live does the exact same thing for Xbox 360 games for instance, if the console is connected. From my experience with Steam over the years there is no feature in place to let you "choose which version to use", and it's probably unrealistic to expect it to be coded into Steam just for FM.

Just for some perspective. Steam isn't for everyone - last year's system of choice seems preferable to me - but some parts of it are painted as borderline malicious/anti-consumer here when this really isn't the intent. It's a digital download system and online community designed for Internet connected computers - it functions best when you use it as such and less so the more you fight it. As a payload for just a single game it's clearly "heavy"; it only really comes into its own when used as the gaming platform it's meant to be. It's not really surprising to me to see people who don't want to use it as such grow sour with it, but really, direct that frustration at the publisher that left you no other choice, not Steam.

SI/SEGA are the ones with the numbers here, but unlike for games with predominantly "gamer" audiences, I don't think Steam-only is a good idea for FM that from my perspective seems to have a predominantly casual/non-gamer audience of simply football fans. A tie-in to a platform like Steam is likely of no interest to a lot of these people and the slightest addition to system requirements (say, have an Internet connection, or a graphics card that isn't 7 years old from back when the 3D engine was released) causes wider issues than with more "techy" gaming crowds. I could be wrong - Miles' numbers seem to suggest that most people did use Steam last year when given the choice - these are just my impressions.

I'm guessing we'll need to wait for the FM12 sales numbers to draw any conclusions.

[Kriss]

Plenty of examples of Murphy's law

[pigfacemonkeyman]

2500 posts - have we not invoked Godwin's Law yet?

You do realise that 'Godwin's Law' has been superceded by 'mention of Godwin's Law'.

[eddymunster]

Don't they put tracking codes into the software? I know some softwares do. And it states that information such as computer, hardware, location etc. for possible false registration key will be transmitted to a website and they can then sort those by country and the amount of people.

Of course that is an estimate, as not everyone would be online.


But it's one possible way.

Didn't someone rubbish this before, calling the poster paranoid and afraid of big brother?

[nessi]

Am I the only one that doesn't understand why someone who objects to third party software would then use a torrent client from a third party and entrust the security of their system to a hacked game?

I'd say nobody who is against steam here is willing to do what you say. If we were, we wouldn't be so upset and wouldn't write 25+ pages to protest.

Personally I'm 100% sure I won't download a hacked version: it would take ages for me, then I'd probably have to find cracks, passwords etc from very untrustful sources. Which would be ALMOST as ennoying as subscribing to steam.

Unfortunately I'm also 100% sure I won't buy the game (SI may not care, but this is my only way to express my aversion for their decision)

[Kriss]

Didn't someone rubbish this before, calling the poster paranoid and afraid of big brother?

Yeh but that was in relation to Sega, I suppose it's possible an anti piracy dedicated company could do this.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

How do you quantify the unquantifiable? If SI released a version with no DRM at all, how would they know if their sales volumes were affected by that any more than the quality of the game itself?

Precisely, and when SI release FM12 with Steam activation only, how would they know if their sales volumes were affected by that any more than the quality of the game itself?

[eddymunster]

Yeh but that was in relation to Sega, I suppose it's possible an anti piracy dedicated company could do this.

Serious question, why is this not the route SI/SEGA have gone down if anti-piracy is the reason for the steam requirement?

[CaptainPlanet]

Precisely, and when SI release FM12 with Steam activation only, how would they know if their sales volumes were affected by that any more than the quality of the game itself?

Well which is safer to do. Release a game with no DRM and guess if sales volumes are affected by piracy, or release a game with DRM and guess if sales volumes are affected by piracy.

[kymsheba]

I am curious why SI didn't mention the STEAM announcement when they first started releasing bits of info, I mean even if it was not definate at the time they should still have mentioned they were looking into this and got some feedback from their customers first, I think all the protest that is appearing may just have taken them by suprise a bit.

It would be good to hear from an SI rep and tell us why they will not release a non steam version as well, it would solve all the protests if we had the option of either way of going. I mean they can't honestly think we are going to believe them for the reason stated by them about piracy.

Please SI come into the forum and discuss with us the reasons for this and what future releases will be like ie: will they go to an option of a steam version and a non-steam version for FM13? Or at least consider and discuss with us their fans about the possiblity of this happening.

Cheers,
kymsheba

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Railroad Tycoon 1 when you had to pick the right train from a picture got any train analogies btw?

This decision is like buying a steam train with no fuel and then having to get coal and water from someone at the other end of the line using that train.

[Super Bladesman]

I am curious why SI didn't mention the STEAM announcement when they first started releasing bits of info, I mean even if it was not definate at the time they should still have mentioned they were looking into this and got some feedback from their customers first, I think all the protest that is appearing may just have taken them by suprise a bit.

It would be good to hear from an SI rep and tell us why they will not release a non steam version as well, it would solve all the protests if we had the option of either way of going. I mean they can't honestly think we are going to believe them for the reason stated by them about piracy.

Please SI come into the forum and discuss with us the reasons for this and what future releases will be like ie: will they go to an option of a steam version and a non-steam version for FM13? Or at least consider and discuss with us their fans about the possiblity of this happening.

Cheers,
kymsheba

They've already made the answers to these questions perfectly clear, particularly in Miles' long last post.

[Kriss]

I am curious why SI didn't mention the STEAM announcement when they first started releasing bits of info, I mean even if it was not definate at the time they should still have mentioned they were looking into this and got some feedback from their customers first, I think all the protest that is appearing may just have taken them by suprise a bit.

It would be good to hear from an SI rep and tell us why they will not release a non steam version as well, it would solve all the protests if we had the option of either way of going. I mean they can't honestly think we are going to believe them for the reason stated by them about piracy.

Please SI come into the forum and discuss with us the reasons for this and what future releases will be like ie: will they go to an option of a steam version and a non-steam version for FM13? Or at least consider and discuss with us their fans about the possiblity of this happening.

Cheers,
kymsheba

They've already done that, you need to read back a whole lot of pages, basically DRM for FM13 will depend on the results of Steam only for FM12.

[kymsheba]

This decision is like buying a steam train with no fuel and then having to get coal and water from someone at the other end of the line using that train.

cheers,
kymsheba

[kymsheba]

They've already done that, you need to read back a whole lot of pages, basically DRM for FM13 will depend on the results of Steam only for FM12.

Thanks for the info guys, you don't happen to have the post number do you so I don't have to go searching through?

Cheers,
kymsheba

[Kriss]

This decision is like buying a steam train with no fuel and then having to get coal and water from someone at the other end of the line using that train.

Then buy a diesel?

[Wakers]

It was weird, the timing of the announcement. They had to have had this in place before the feature blogs were started, if not well before.

[Eugene Tyson]

I am curious why SI didn't mention the STEAM announcement when they first started releasing bits of info, I mean even if it was not definate at the time they should still have mentioned they were looking into this and got some feedback from their customers first, I think all the protest that is appearing may just have taken them by suprise a bit.

They have no obligation to get feedback from customers? Just because they didn't do it through the forums doesn't mean they didn't get any feedback? Why do you think they didn't get feedback?

It's their company, their game, they may have made a mistake by taking the decision out of the consumers hands. But that's their choice.

I think they knew exactly what feedback they would get. Make no mistake of that.

It would be good to hear from an SI rep and tell us why they will not release a non steam version as well, it would solve all the protests if we had the option of either way of going. I mean they can't honestly think we are going to believe them for the reason stated by them about piracy.

They already have stated this. All this talk about not believing "it can't be just about piracy" is absolute madness. As if it's some kind of conspiracy?

Please SI come into the forum and discuss with us the reasons for this and what future releases will be like ie: will they go to an option of a steam version and a non-steam version for FM13? Or at least consider and discuss with us their fans about the possiblity of this happening.

They have come to the forums. They explained their reasons already. And they said they didn't take the decision lightly, they didn't do it for FM10 or FM11 because they didn't think any system was viable. But they felt for FM12 it was a good solution and they wanted to use it to help combat piracy, which they are having a huge problem with.

There has been no decision made about FM13, I would imagine. It will depend on how well Steam goes for FM12, as it's the first time trying this system.

[greenone]

Well which is safer to do. Release a game with no DRM and guess if sales volumes are affected by piracy, or release a game with DRM and guess if sales volumes are affected by piracy.

it's really difficult to go on line and find a cracked version of a DRM 'protected' game. [/sarcasm]

[milnerpoint]

it's really difficult to go on line and find a cracked version of a DRM 'protected' game. [/sarcasm]

So therefor they should just give up and stop trying to stop people stealing their product?

[eddymunster]

Thanks for the info guys, you don't happen to have the post number do you so I don't have to go searching through?

Cheers,
kymsheba

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...05#post7085405

[Wakers]

So therefor they should just give up and stop trying to stop people stealing their product?

I think there comes a point when it makes more sense to focus on increasing the number of paying customers (and retaining existing customers) than it is spending money on increasingly exclusive methods of DRM. Not saying that the Steam DRM is expensive for Sega or SI, but the last few years they've tried all sorts that can't have been cheap.

Making FM available on Steam is a good idea, as was opening it up to other online distributers.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I don't have access to the internet except when at work, and when at my sisters. My PC is not equipped to be carried to an internet connection to activate a game.
I won't be able to activate the game, so therefore may as well not bother buying.

Has Sega and Sports Interactive actually even considered those without the internet? Or do they think everyone has it now? Not everyone can afford the internet. With regards to internet, 99% of them you sign up to a yearly contract, something I can't afford to do right now. Though a game I enjoy(ed) I can afford once a year to play instead if I saved for it.
So what do Sega and SI suggest I do then? p.s. if this has been answered in here, I have not seen it as its a really long thread, and not got the time during my lunch hour to read it all.

Sod off, apparently. There is no option for you if you have no internet access.

[playmaker]

Am I the only one that doesn't understand why someone who objects to third party software would then use a torrent client from a third party and entrust the security of their system to a hacked game?

Apparently not, but what is your point?

It has been suggested more than once that Steam only activation could actually increase piracy. I am simply pointing out that it swaps one piece of third party software for another and potentially opens up your computer to far more risk than Steam, so I personally don't see the advantage.

[eddymunster]

They have no obligation to get feedback from customers?

They already have stated this. All this talk about not believing "it can't be just about piracy" is absolute madness. As if it's some kind of conspiracy?

Just because I don't think that's the whole truth does not mean I believe there is a conspiracy. I think they are doing it because SEGA want to because it's mutually beneficial for SEGA and steam to have a good working relationship, which unfortunately means annoying some customers. If they honestly believe Steam will help combat piracy that's up to them, I just think it is incredibly naive to believe that.

Unless of course there is some data none of us know about showing that steam activated games are significantly less susceptible to piracy. If that's the case good move, it'll be worth it. But I really, really doubt that data exists.

[aaron70]

See this thread here stating that they sell more copies of their games on Steam then all the other sources. I haven't bought one of their games off Steam but I assume you have to run Steam to play them just like every other game on Steam. So they are more then happy to use Steam, they obviously feel that it is a form of DRM that offers paying customers extra value completely invalidating your arguement.

Just loved the way you turned that into your basis of disregarding what everybody has been saying. Paradox offer steam because many people are happy to use, they also offer a version without any DRM because they have customers who want to use it. They have not seen a downturn in sales because of this. Hope we still have some case for an argument

[greenone]

So therefor they should just give up and stop trying to stop people stealing their product?

Personally I would if you are driving customers away. They don't want my 30 quid? I'm sure their are plenty of other devolpers that will have it. I dont have a problem with them protecting their IP but I do have a problem with them telling me to install 3rd party spyware on my system to use it. Why not have 2 versions, one for steam and one with old style word/letter out of the manual protection? I think I know which the hackers would go after.

[aaron70]

Just because I don't think that's the whole truth does not mean I believe there is a conspiracy. I think they are doing it because SEGA want to because it's mutually beneficial for SEGA and steam to have a good working relationship, which unfortunately means annoying some customers. If they honestly believe Steam will help combat piracy that's up to them, I just think it is incredibly naive to believe that.

Unless of course there is some data none of us know about showing that steam activated games are significantly less susceptible to piracy. If that's the case good move, it'll be worth it. But I really, really doubt that data exists.

No. Steam games are cracked just as easily as any others according to websites. Maybe Paradox will release a football manager game

[pigfacemonkeyman]

http://www.ctc.usma.edu/

Both spellings are acceptable, Google obviously don't know this.

[eddymunster]

It has been suggested more than once that Steam only activation could actually increase piracy. I am simply pointing out that it swaps one piece of third party software for another and potentially opens up your computer to far more risk than Steam, so I personally don't see the advantage.

Correct, Steam will not increase piracy. But will it reduce it significantly? I really doubt it.

This decision in my view (and this is entirely my own view/interpretation before anyone jumps all over me for it) is this:

1. SEGA/SI want some kind of registry in an attempt to combat piracy, but they want it to be financially relatively low risk.
2. Steam offer it for free on the condition that all users have to download & be logged into steam at all times while playing (increasing traffic and therefore sales).
3. SEGA/SI realise this is the best option for them and they have a LOYAL (can't think of a better word) and die hard fan base, and a near monopoly on the genre of PC management sims, therefore can afford to force steam on their customers. Leaving their customers only 2 choices, do what your told or don't play FM. This is why I'm peeved. (Not peeved enough to not play FM though )

[Eugene Tyson]

Just because I don't think that's the whole truth does not mean I believe there is a conspiracy. I think they are doing it because SEGA want to because it's mutually beneficial for SEGA and steam to have a good working relationship, which unfortunately means annoying some customers. If they honestly believe Steam will help combat piracy that's up to them, I just think it is incredibly naive to believe that.

Unless of course there is some data none of us know about showing that steam activated games are significantly less susceptible to piracy. If that's the case good move, it'll be worth it. But I really, really doubt that data exists.

Nobody has ever claimed it's the answer to piracy. It would be delusional to suggest so. Fighting piracy isn't about eliminating it, but about reducing it so that businesses aren't drained.

I'm of the opinion people deserve to be paid for their work. And if Steam can prevent some privacy so that the good folks that make this wonderful game that I have so far enjoyed over 900 hours on FM11 alone can get paid and produce an even better game for me, rather than going bust.

Yeh I'm on SI, Sega and Steams side.

[Keyzer Soze]

I don't have access to the internet except when at work, and when at my sisters. My PC is not equipped to be carried to an internet connection to activate a game.
I won't be able to activate the game, so therefore may as well not bother buying.

Has Sega and Sports Interactive actually even considered those without the internet? Or do they think everyone has it now? Not everyone can afford the internet. With regards to internet, 99% of them you sign up to a yearly contract, something I can't afford to do right now. Though a game I enjoy(ed) I can afford once a year to play instead if I saved for it.
So what do Sega and SI suggest I do then?

p.s. if this has been answered in here, I have not seen it as its a really long thread, and not got the time during my lunch hour to read it all.

With that in mind, then SI should never developed the 3D match engine, because their are users that dont have a PC with the requirements to play the game in 3D?
Games companys made games that need certain requirements. It's up to the potential users to see if they have the right hardware to play those games. That not of any concern of the game company if you dont have internet.

When FM2009 was released my PC could match the requirements to play the game in 3D. Should i blame SI for that? If i what to play the game... buy a new PC (or upgrade).

But in yout case, you dont even need to do that. Go to your sisters house and activate the game there. they play it with steam in offline mode!

[Kriss]

Correct, Steam will not increase piracy. But will it reduce it significantly? I really doubt it.

This decision in my view (and this is entirely my own view/interpretation before anyone jumps all over me for it) is this:

1. SEGA/SI want some kind of registry in an attempt to combat piracy, but they want it to be financially relatively low risk.
2. Steam offer it for free on the condition that all users have to download & be logged into steam at all times while playing (increasing traffic and therefore sales).
3. SEGA/SI realise this is the best option for them and they have a LOYAL (can't think of a better word) and die hard fan base, and a near monopoly on the genre of PC management sims, therefore can afford to force steam on their customers. Leaving their customers only 2 choices, do what your told or don't play FM. This is why I'm peeved. (Not peeved enough to not play FM though )

2. certainly isn't true as in logged in and on line.

[Keyzer Soze]

Correct, Steam will not increase piracy. But will it reduce it significantly? I really doubt it.

This decision in my view (and this is entirely my own view/interpretation before anyone jumps all over me for it) is this:

1. SEGA/SI want some kind of registry in an attempt to combat piracy, but they want it to be financially relatively low risk.
2. Steam offer it for free on the condition that all users have to download & be logged into steam at all times while playing (increasing traffic and therefore sales).
3. SEGA/SI realise this is the best option for them and they have a LOYAL (can't think of a better word) and die hard fan base, and a near monopoly on the genre of PC management sims, therefore can afford to force steam on their customers. Leaving their customers only 2 choices, do what your told or don't play FM. This is why I'm peeved. (Not peeved enough to not play FM though )

100% agree with this! But tell me, If you were SI or SEGA, wouldn't you do the same?

[aaron70]

Eugene,

I don't get that. Once one pirated version is made that's it. It will just be uploaded and downloaded over thousands of forums. Where do we get the idea that there are hundreds of people trying to work out how to pirate the game. It is more likely 5 or 6 people focusing on FM for example. 5 pirated copies sent out will be 5000 in a week.

Yeh I'm on SI, Sega and Steams side.
And someone who can't see why the company will not offer another option is against them and for the pirates....missing the point.


A really interesting interview with a guy who breaks these games stated that he "loved a challenge".

[eddymunster]

2. certainly isn't true as in logged in and on line.

Everybody has to go online at some point to register. The program is on their machine. Easy access for bored people to get a new game. Basically free advertising and a Steam shop in your front room.

I don't really want easy access to another way to waste my money. It's like I said in an earlier post, How many times have you been into a shop to get something specific and bought something else as well?

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I believe one of the reason's Steam has been taken up this year is that its got to the stage where internet access is near universal and therefore it is commercially viable to do this.

Of course there are exceptions, but you can't cater for everyone.

It's not even countrywide, let alone universal, so if it's one of SI's or your reasons it is a poor one.

[afced7]

A really interesting interview with a guy who breaks these games stated that he "loved a challenge".

Then maybe if Steam is as ineffective as DRM as everybody seems to think they won't bother

[Eugene Tyson]

Eugene,

I don't get that. Once one pirated version is made that's it. It will just be uploaded and downloaded over thousands of forums. Where do we get the idea that there are hundreds of people trying to work out how to pirate the game. It is more likely 5 or 6 people focusing on FM for example. 5 pirated copies sent out will be 5000 in a week.

Yeh I'm on SI, Sega and Steams side.
And someone who can't see why the company will not offer another option is against them and for the pirates....missing the point.


A really interesting interview with a guy who breaks these games stated that he "loved a challenge".

I read a really interesting with a guy who used to pirate games all the time. And stopped.

Read all the interviews you like.

http://www.google.ie/search?q=steam+...ient=firefox-a

You'll find some very interesting ones there. I've read about a dozen so far.

And all in all turns me more in the favour of Steam.

[CaptainPlanet]

I think it's acceptable that having a home internet connection is a minimum requirement.

[aaron70]

Then maybe if Steam is as ineffective as DRM as everybody seems to think they won't bother

Ahhh...that's the cunning plan

[Super Bladesman]

I did a search about the effectiveness of switching to Steamworks on fighting this theft. No-one is going to give away hard numbers, obviously and unfortunately, amd there isn't much out there but I thought it might be interesting anyway.

In a 2001 interview with PC Gamer, Valve's Gabe Newell and Erik Johnson said:

PC Gamer: Do you have a good sense of piracy rates with Steam games?

Gabe Newell: They’re low enough that we don’t really spend any time [on it]. When you look at the things we sit around and talk about, as big picture cross game issues, we’re way more concerned about the stability of DirectX drivers or, you know, the erroneous banning of people. That’s way more of an issue for us than piracy.
Once you create service value for customers, ongoing service value, piracy seems to disappear, right? It’s like “Oh, you’re still doing something for me? I don’t mind the fact that I paid for this.” Once you actually localise your product in Russia and ship it on the same day that you ship your English language versions, this theoretical hotbed of piracy becomes your second largest- third largest after Germany in continental Europe? Or third after UK?
Erik Johnson: In terms of retail units?
Gabe Newell: In terms of sales of our products, yeah. Overall, Steam plus retail.
Erik Johnson: Probably second. It’s a big number.
Gabe Newell: The point is that there’s this market that you shouldn’t waste your time on, that went from, “You shouldn’t waste our time on it, they’ll just pirate it,” to “it’s actually a really large market for us now,” once you actually do the things that allow your product to be played. And that’s why some of the DRM approaches are so bad, because they create negative value, not positive value.

That does point towards Steam being effective against software theft; Valve's idea is to offer the customer a service, to offer something more than one would get by simply stealing a game.

[eddymunster]

100% agree with this! But tell me, If you were SI or SEGA, wouldn't you do the same?

Yes, but I'm a horrible person.

[Wakers]

Then maybe if Steam is as ineffective as DRM as everybody seems to think they won't bother

Thinking has nothing to do with it. It just is not effective as DRM. Anything out on Steam is available to download on torrent sites before/same/day after.

[playmaker]

Correct, Steam will not increase piracy. But will it reduce it significantly? I really doubt it.

If that is how people are reading my post, then I'll make it clear that there is nothing to read between the lines - I'mi not suggesting it will significantly reduce piracy because I have no access to figures that would suggest that. It's not an argument for or against Steam, it's an argument against piracy.

[Katarian]

Just loved the way you turned that into your basis of disregarding what everybody has been saying. Paradox offer steam because many people are happy to use, they also offer a version without any DRM because they have customers who want to use it. They have not seen a downturn in sales because of this. Hope we still have some case for an argument

They aren't the best argument against the use of Steam as you posted, as they clearly use Steam and like it otherwise they wouldn't use it. Yes you aren't forced to use Steam, and I have never used Steam for any of their games because Steam prices are a ripoff outside of sales. If Steam is so amazing awful as DRM and doesn't offer advantages then surely Paradox would not use them at all. The very fact that they use it as well as providing DRM free versions shows that Steam is the best alternative to selling DRM free software.

[aaron70]

I read a really interesting with a guy who used to pirate games all the time. And stopped.

Read all the interviews you like.

http://www.google.ie/search?q=steam+...ient=firefox-a

You'll find some very interesting ones there. I've read about a dozen so far.

And all in all turns me more in the favour of Steam.

Yes...but what has that got to do with it. You keep saying if it cuts down piracy you are for it...how can it? The game just needs to be cracked once and it is all over. This argument that is will make any impact on pirating the game just does not seem based on logiv. One craked and uploaded game becomes thousands of games. The games is just downloaded and reuploaded. It does not have to be cracked twice!!! Surely you see the point here. It will not hinder piracy!!! Just one time....who cares if someone stopped....someone else will do it. I do not see your argument. You agree the game will be cracked, but you agree that no options should be given to the consumer to not use steam...why? Once it has ben cracked once the anti-piracy idea is no longer an issue.

[eddymunster]

If that is how people are reading my post, then I'll make it clear that there is nothing to read between the lines - I'mi not suggesting it will significantly reduce piracy because I have no access to figures that would suggest that. It's not an argument for or against Steam, it's an argument against piracy.

I know, I read your post correctly. SI/SEGA are saying that making the down load of steam a necessity is an anti-pirating measure which it's not. Which I refer to in the part of my post you deleted.

[aaron70]

They aren't the best argument against the use of Steam as you posted, as they clearly use Steam and like it otherwise they wouldn't use it. Yes you aren't forced to use Steam, and I have never used Steam for any of their games because Steam prices are a ripoff outside of sales. If Steam is so amazing awful as DRM and doesn't offer advantages then surely Paradox would not use them at all. The very fact that they use it as well as providing DRM free versions shows that Steam is the best alternative to selling DRM free software.

And??.....the argument is that Sega should offer options like Paradox do. You seem to think we are saying NO STEAM...no we are saying how about options for those who do not want to use steam.

[milnerpoint]

The just of this thread seems to be saying that, pirating can never be stopped so why bother trying, if we are to go down the wonderful path of analogies, why dont they just do away with the police? Your never going to stop crime, so why bother, why not just educate people when they are young and put faith and trust that they wont break the law? People who are inclined towards crime are going to commit them whether we have police or not, so why waste money trying to stop them when they could spend money improving our nation and education and most importantly, poverty? Forcing people to follow laws are just pushing them to do something illegal, because hey, we should have an unlimited number of choices in the world.

Also another thought, i would sincerely hope that every single one of these "loyal" customers are active in shopping any torrent of FM they come across on the net, as a "loyal" customer surely should be appalled to see FM being available for free. A lot of people on here who are against steam seem to have good knowledge on stealing the game, so it cant be that hard for them to track down a torrent on release day and email SI, SEGA or Miles directly with a link. I would hope these "loyal" customers would also shop anyone they knew using a pirate copy of FM, again they should be outraged at this happening, not condoning it.

Its just a thought really.

[eddymunster]

They aren't the best argument against the use of Steam as you posted, as they clearly use Steam and like it otherwise they wouldn't use it. Yes you aren't forced to use Steam, and I have never used Steam for any of their games because Steam prices are a ripoff outside of sales. If Steam is so amazing awful as DRM and doesn't offer advantages then surely Paradox would not use them at all. The very fact that they use it as well as providing DRM free versions shows that Steam is the best alternative to selling DRM free software.

Paradox will use steam because it is a retail venue with access to many customers, not for there anti-piracy abilities.

[CaptainPlanet]

Downloaded cracked versions of the game aren't the only form of Piracy?

It's a bit harder to burn image copies of a CD and sell it at the local market when it's a Steam game.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Well which is safer to do. Release a game with no DRM and guess if sales volumes are affected by piracy, or release a game with DRM and guess if sales volumes are affected by piracy.

Neither, safety doesn't come into it. Spend the money wasted chasing phantom, future customers, who've seen the error of their pirating ways, on improving the game and service to paying customers.

(note the single 't' in pie ratting)

[Barside]

I have a general questions as I might have done something wrong.

To test the waters with Steam I decided to activate FM2010 with them, I followed the install instructions after firing up the disk & was as expected re-directed to Steam to enter the activation code. I have now been pushed to a download manager which is installing the game via the Steam server rather than the disk.

Is this how the system works? Have I missed an option that would allow the faster disk installation? I only ask because even with a 20 meg broadband connection & assuming I'm probably the only person downloading FM2010 the estimated time required is slightly over 10 minutes which makes me wonder how long the process would take a day or two after release.

[aaron70]

The just of this thread seems to be saying that, pirating can never be stopped so why bother trying, if we are to go down the wonderful path of analogies, why dont they just do away with the police? Your never going to stop crime, so why bother, why not just educate people when they are young and put faith and trust that they wont break the law? People who are inclined towards crime are going to commit them whether we have police or not, so why waste money trying to stop them when they could spend money improving our nation and education and most importantly, poverty? Forcing people to follow laws are just pushing them to do something illegal, because hey, we should have an unlimited number of choices in the world.

Also another thought, i would sincerely hope that every single one of these "loyal" customers are active in shopping any torrent of FM they come across on the net, as a "loyal" customer surely should be appalled to see FM being available for free. A lot of people on here who are against steam seem to have good knowledge on stealing the game, so it cant be that hard for them to track down a torrent on release day and email SI, SEGA or Miles directly with a link. I would hope these "loyal" customers would also shop anyone they knew using a pirate copy of FM, again they should be outraged at this happening, not condoning it.

Its just a thought really.

Milner you keep ignoring the Paradox example who did just that. They have increased sales steadily. Previous posts outline this argument. Paradox use Steam and a DRM free game.

[CaptainPlanet]

And??.....the argument is that Sega should offer options like Paradox do. You seem to think we are saying NO STEAM...no we are saying how about options for those who do not want to use steam.

Providing everyone is happy that some form of DRM has to be in place (which they aren't). There are very few valid reasons to not want to use Steam and to want an alternative.

[CaptainPlanet]

Neither, safety doesn't come into it. Spend the money wasted chasing phantom, future customers, who've seen the error of their pirating ways, on improving the game and service to paying customers.

(note the single 't' in pie ratting)

Having to validate a game through Steam is hardly a big expense is it. It's not like we've missed out on a developed feature as a result.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Then buy a diesel?

But I like steam! wait a minute...

[Matt_no_7]

So the logic is "If we can stall pirates for 3 days and they'll go and buy it."

If i wanted something and it costs £30 but i know that if i wait a few days i can get it for free.... 3 days isn't that long to wait. "Oh no i have to wait 3 days.... I better go buy it then, oh damn you SI! Soooo wanted it for free on release day but i can't wait 3 days, i'll die!"

I highly doubt anyone is that impatient.

SI, just get rid of the need for us to keep Steam after activation. That's what most are annoyed about!

[Eugene Tyson]

I've always said there's nothing you can do to stop piracy. You can take steps to cut it down.

But I've said all along that I don't think this route with Steam will help. But I'm willing to give Steam a go.

Sega and SI seem to think it will help. In so much that they hope to double their sales by going this route.

And this is something they have decided. If that's the decision based on doubling sales, I can't argue with them.

They do refuse to release numbers, for various reasons. But I have no reason to doubt them.

[aaron70]

Downloaded cracked versions of the game aren't the only form of Piracy?

It's a bit harder to burn image copies of a CD and sell it at the local market when it's a Steam game.

Once the game as been cracked it can be converted and then placed on a CD The technology they have is already there. A cracked game will be on a CD very quickly. This is getting very circular. Why are people refusing to admit that the game will be pirated and distributed. It just has to be done once and away we go, If we just accept that we can accept that not giving consumers a choice is not really justifiable. I think some people are clinging on to the anti-piracy argument because if you drop that there there is no defense left.

[eddymunster]

Providing everyone is happy that some form of DRM has to be in place (which they aren't). There are very few valid reasons to not want to use Steam and to want an alternative.

Because you have to install a third party software. And it has to be running all the time. And that 3rd party software monitors your actions (to what extent I'm not sure).

My point - Let me download steam to register then uninstall when I've registered.

[Eugene Tyson]

So the logic is "If we can stall pirates for 3 days and they'll go and buy it."

If i wanted something and it costs £30 but i know that if i wait a few days i can get it for free.... 3 days isn't that long to wait. "Oh no i have to wait 3 days.... I better go buy it then, oh damn you SI! Soooo wanted it for free on release day but i can't wait 3 days, i'll die!"

I highly doubt anyone is that impatient.

SI, just get rid of the need for us to keep Steam after activation. That's what most are annoyed about!

People have been whinging about "what happens to steam if it goes down and I have to wait 3 days".

Seemingly they are willing to wait 3 days for a pirated version, rather than 3 days to get a legitimate copy of FM up and running through Steam?

(very broad analogy)

[aaron70]

I've always said there's nothing you can do to stop piracy. You can take steps to cut it down.

But I've said all along that I don't think this route with Steam will help. But I'm willing to give Steam a go.

Sega and SI seem to think it will help. In so much that they hope to double their sales by going this route.

And this is something they have decided. If that's the decision based on doubling sales, I can't argue with them.

They do refuse to release numbers, for various reasons. But I have no reason to doubt them.

Eugene. I agree...Give steam a go...yes...no problems...but please think of the portion of your customer who don't want or can't use steam....that is all I am asking anyway.

[eddymunster]

So the logic is "If we can stall pirates for 3 days and they'll go and buy it."

If i wanted something and it costs £30 but i know that if i wait a few days i can get it for free.... 3 days isn't that long to wait. "Oh no i have to wait 3 days.... I better go buy it then, oh damn you SI! Soooo wanted it for free on release day but i can't wait 3 days, i'll die!"

I highly doubt anyone is that impatient.

SI, just get rid of the need for us to keep Steam after activation. That's what most are annoyed about!

If it's anything like 2009 you'll have to wait 3 days regardless.

[CaptainPlanet]

Because you have to install a third party software. And it has to be running all the time. And that 3rd party software monitors your actions (to what extent I'm not sure).

My point - Let me download steam to register then uninstall when I've registered.

A third party application that does not affect your Football Manager gaming experience.

It's not a valid reason. Just because it's a 3rd party application and it has to be running.

[Kriss]

I have a general questions as I might have done something wrong.

To test the waters with Steam I decided to activate FM2010 with them, I followed the install instructions after firing up the disk & was as expected re-directed to Steam to enter the activation code. I have now been pushed to a download manager which is installing the game via the Steam server rather than the disk.

Is this how the system works? Have I missed an option that would allow the faster disk installation? I only ask because even with a 20 meg broadband connection & assuming I'm probably the only person downloading FM2010 the estimated time required is slightly over 10 minutes which makes me wonder how long the process would take a day or two after release.

Yeh, that's gang awry somewhere, should install from the disc.

[milnerpoint]

Milner you keep ignoring the Paradox example who did just that. They have increased sales steadily. Previous posts outline this argument. Paradox use Steam and a DRM free game.

Paradox are trying the route, only time will tell if they have been successful or not, as you lot have painstakingly pointed out, it would be very difficult to prove the sales were gained because of no DRM or because of increased interest, much like it would be very hard to tell sales have increased because of DRM directly. People are not going to rush to buy games, especially not the games Paradox make because they dont have DRM, Paradox are a growing games company, if their sales were not going up they would be rightly very worried. I have spent the best part of the last hour reading a lot on what they have to say for it all, and nothing says they have directly linked an increase in sales because of no DRM, now if a company like EA or someone similar posted info that backs that up i would be on your guys side right away. It strikes me as funny that the only company really giving this a go is one that makes games EVEN more specialized than FM that your average joe game player will not go near, the last thing they need is to limit anything.

[aaron70]

Because when you pay for something you want use it straight away

[CaptainPlanet]

Once the game as been cracked it can be converted and then placed on a CD The technology they have is already there. A cracked game will be on a CD very quickly. This is getting very circular. Why are people refusing to admit that the game will be pirated and distributed. It just has to be done once and away we go, If we just accept that we can accept that not giving consumers a choice is not really justifiable. I think some people are clinging on to the anti-piracy argument because if you drop that there there is no defense left.

Nobody has said it will stop it, wish people would stop saying that.