Countering long punts over the defence. My approach

[tpalan]

In my tinkering , though I must admit this bug cum flaw almost drove me mad; kept snapping at my missus over the holidays, I had to stop playing for a few days to figure out how to counter this

The combinations that worked for my Barnsley team (predicted to finish 20th, though we are gunning for a UCL place at the moment) are listed below. 

What worked

1. Standard defense line ( this is the most important)
2. defend narrow
3. tight marking
4. Regroup

In addition 

• More urgent pressing (this hasn't broken my lines in any noticeable way)
• Using pressing forward(s) to close down opposition defense instead of counter pressing 
• Prevent GK short distribution (i use it but i think it is actually in negation to the regroup instruction)

The culprits to avoid till after the next patch

1. Anything higher than standard for defense line
2. Counter press
3. Use offside trap

My Formation : Asymmetric 4-1-4-1
  
                    PF(a)

IW (s)              AM(s)          IW(s)
                        
         CM(a)

                   DLP (d)

WB (s)   CD (d)     CD (d)   WB (s)

 

Edited January 11, 2020 by tpalan

[KlaaZ]

I would just like to say that these are very interesting suggestions. Tried implementing them in my own tactic and it does seem to help.

[tpalan]

3 hours ago, KlaaZ said:

I would just like to say that these are very interesting suggestions. Tried implementing them in my own tactic and it does seem to help.

Nice it worked for you. It really made the bad match engine bearable after I implemented it and made it feel a bit normal to play again

Edited January 11, 2020 by tpalan

[IrrelevantLion]

Pressing forwards are definitely OP in this build 

[FrazT]

Setting the fastest of the 2 Dcs to Cover has also helped for me.  The only consolation is that even if the opposition do get clean through on goal, they are 95% certain to hit the keeper anyway

[radetzky]

@tpalan

very interesting suggestions, long balls seem unstoppable sometimes.

What about the engagement line? Usually i play with much higher, do you suggest to lower it?

Did you notice that lowering the mentality to balanced or cautious helps?

Yesterday i had a game like below, my team is AZ. 

All ccc come from long balls, they missed a lots but it was frustrating not being able to stop them

 

[CAE82]

4 hours ago, FrazT said:

Setting the fastest of the 2 Dcs to Cover has also helped for me.  The only consolation is that even if the opposition do get clean through on goal, they are 95% certain to hit the keeper anyway

I usually play BPD (Defend) but switching one to vanilla CD (Cover) also helped me.

[RBKalle]

But isn't Counterpress the most powerful tactical tool available?

I know it's annoying to see world-class defenders unable to cope with 80s-Third Division hoofballs, but with 1-on-1s being stil broken, it's maybe still worth the risk to play Gegenpress, as effective as it is?

[Tony Wright 747]

6 hours ago, FrazT said:

Setting the fastest of the 2 Dcs to Cover has also helped for me.  The only consolation is that even if the opposition do get clean through on goal, they are 95% certain to hit the keeper anyway

Which is just another indication that this ME is a mess

[pheelf]

Very interesting that it was the long balls over the top which were driving you crazy not the fact that you had a team predicted to finish rock bottom of the league competing for a Champions League berth, curious.

I give you credit for trying to be proactive and come up with a solution though, much like a real manager would attempt to do.

Best Regards

[thehig2]

25 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Which is just another indication that this ME is a mess

The match engine isn't great actaully worse than FM19.

The suggestions in this thread work, however its just as viable to play high line and press and let the opposition miss 1 on 1s

Chances are you score more goals playing high up the pitch pressing

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Which is just another indication that this ME is a mess

With respect, unless you have the game yourself - which you don't - opinions like this aren't helpful. 

[anagain]

I have one of my center backs set to cover and I have turned off the offside trap. It has helped immensely on the occaisons when I have suffered against counter attack teams.

I've played with a CD on cover for some time now, to be fair. Since I turned off the offside trap it has gotten even better. I was watching Loki Doki on YT and he commented that he thought cover and the offside trap seemed like they might contradict. I hadn't considered that, but it did make my defence more secure.

[Tony Wright 747]

27 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

With respect, unless you have the game yourself - which you don't - opinions like this aren't helpful. 

With respect Dave, you obviously didn't read my reply to your previous post on this.  I played the demo enough to form a valid opinion, and have watched  loads of videos from Loki Doki etc.  For what it's worth, I think that outside of matchday this is the best release.  Graphics are probably better than the last two, with room for improvements, but and it's a big but in my opinion the ME is very poor

[anagain]

8 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

With respect Dave, you obviously didn't read my reply to your previous post on this.  I played the demo enough to form a valid opinion, and have watched  loads of videos from Loki Doki etc.  For what it's worth, I think that outside of matchday this is the best release.  Graphics are probably better than the last two, with room for improvements, but and it's a big but in my opinion the ME is very poor

Because you mentioned Loki, there is one thing I have noticed. Not once does he ever really scream at the screen that the game is bugged, or the match engine is poor. I am two videos behind on his journeyman series, but in the last one I watched his team was totally undone by three punts from the opposition. All he said was "great defending", or something sarcastic along those lines.

Most people just get on with the game and enjoy it for what it is at the time. It's the minority that rant and rave.

I'm not going to say people can't be upset or even unimpressed, but the ME will never be 100% perfect. The nature of what SI have developed means it will always be hindered by small changes having a dramatic effect. Every year this forum is awash with complaints about the ME, and every year those complaints suggest this is the worst ME ever whilst pointing to better past ones.

This thread proves that fans of FM will work with the limitations of the programming to get what they can out of the game. Interjecting with yet more complaining on the state of the ME doesn't really help. We know it, and I suspect that is why @Dagenham_Dave replied as he did.

Edited January 11, 2020 by anagain

[DominicMc95]

I thought a back 3 may help but it seems that just means more defenders stood still.when the ball is playee

[anagain]

2 minutes ago, DominicMc95 said:

I thought a back 3 may help but it seems that just means more defenders stood still.when the ball is playee

I believe the issue with the ME is that the reaction of defenders turning to defend long balls is at fault. Having one defender with a deeper positioning will at least give your team cover.

Sticking the center member of your back three on cover may help.

[Tony Wright 747]

9 minutes ago, anagain said:

Because you mentioned Loki, there is one thing I have noticed. Not once does he ever really scream at the screen that the game is bugged, or the match engine is poor. I am two videos behind on his journeyman series, but in the last one I watched his team was totally undone by three punts from the opposition. All he said was "great defending", or something sarcastic along those lines.

Most people just get on with the game and enjoy it for what it is at the time. It's the minority that rant and rave.

I'm not going to say people can't be upset or even unimpressed, but the ME will never be 100% perfect. The nature of what SI have developed means it will always be hindered by small changes having a dramatic effect. Every year this forum is awash with complaints about the ME, and every year those complaints suggest this is the worst ME ever whilst pointing to better past ones.

This thread proves that fans of FM will work with the limitations of the programming to get what they can out of the game. Interjecting with yet more complaining on the state of the ME doesn't really help. We know it, and I suspect that is why @Dagenham_Dave replied as he did.

Loki is given the game to play and is one of the developers prefered volgers, so he is never going to be ultra critical of SI.  It would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. He makes his living by making videos of the latest release.

 

I have no problem with Dagenham Dave, or anybody else having a different opinion to me, but he was suggesting I couldn't have an opinion because I didn't buy the game, I followed the general advice and did what I have always done, played the demo and have decided that in it's present state this version is not for me.

[dubaRA7]

Fast and intelligent central defenders with high work rate are pretty effective against hoof balls. But they are a bit expensive :/

[Grifty]

Both my main centre backs have pace 14+, dropped the line to standard and turned off playing for offsides. Now it happens what I'm happy with to be a realistic amount of times.

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I have no problem with Dagenham Dave, or anybody else having a different opinion to me, but he was suggesting I couldn't have an opinion because I didn't buy the game, I followed the general advice and did what I have always done, played the demo and have decided that in it's present state this version is not for me.

Apologies Tony, I didn't realise you had played the demo. 

[Tony Wright 747]

2 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Apologies Tony, I didn't realise you had played the demo. 

No problem Dave

[tpalan]

Wow. This blew up.

 

[tpalan]

8 hours ago, radetzky said:

@tpalan

very interesting suggestions, long balls seem unstoppable sometimes.

What about the engagement line? Usually i play with much higher, do you suggest to lower it?

Did you notice that lowering the mentality to balanced or cautious helps?

Yesterday i had a game like below, my team is AZ. 

All ccc come from long balls, they missed a lots but it was frustrating not being able to stop them

 

@radetzkyI would suggest you set it no higher than standard especially if are managing an underdog team.

For instance I observed that playing a standard line with offside trap would still drag the defense line as far as the field half-line even if you have players in the defensive midfield slot. So what has worked for me is to play standard line with no offside trap. My crap centerbacks suddenly became Virgil-like and we started winning games. 

Setting it lower than standard seems to invite too much pressure and longshots.

I also did notice that using the positive mentality and no counter (hold position or just leaving the option unselected in transition ) slowed the match engine entropy and make my team less susceptible to fast breaks.

Edited January 11, 2020 by tpalan

[tpalan]

On 11/01/2020 at 12:20, pheelf said:

Very interesting that it was the long balls over the top which were driving you crazy not the fact that you had a team predicted to finish rock bottom of the league competing for a Champions League berth, curious.

I give you credit for trying to be proactive and come up with a solution though, much like a real manager would attempt to do.

Best Regards

@pheelfI guess doing the impossible is actually the holy Grail of football manager when the match engine permits.

What of my Bolton team that won the premiership on FM 07 in the second season and convinced Drogba to join from Chelsea in the third season!

Edited January 12, 2020 by tpalan

[Bothan Spy]

Hands up those that are daily checking these forums for a hotfix to sort this issue?

I sincerely hope we don't have to wait until the end of February update...

[Maldini's Heir]

On 11/01/2020 at 02:23, tpalan said:

In my tinkering , though I must admit this bug cum flaw almost drove me mad; kept snapping at my missus over the holidays, I had to stop playing for a few days to figure out how to counter this

The combinations that worked for my Barnsley team (predicted to finish 20th, though we are gunning for a UCL place at the moment) are listed below. 

What worked

1. Standard defense line ( this is the most important)
2. defend narrow
3. tight marking
4. Regroup

In addition 

• More urgent pressing (this hasn't broken my lines in any noticeable way)
• Using pressing forward(s) to close down opposition defense instead of counter pressing 
• Prevent GK short distribution (i use it but i think it is actually in negation to the regroup instruction)

The culprits to avoid till after the next patch

1. Anything higher than standard for defense line
2. Counter press
3. Use offside trap

My Formation : Asymmetric 4-1-4-1
  
                    PF(a)

IW (s)              AM(s)          IW(s)
                        
         CM(a)

                   DLP (d)

WB (s)   CD (d)     CD (d)   WB (s)

 

I haven’t actually had too many issues with balls over the top from the computer and I think it’s because I‘ve always set up my team the way you suggested with the exception that I do use counter press instead of regroup.

I do acknowledge it’s an issue because my team keep doing balls over the top and my striker keeps missing 1v1s and that’s my main source of frustration.

Generally there doesn’t seem to be enough goals in this game. 

[radetzky]

19 ore fa, tpalan ha scritto:

@radetzkyI would suggest you set it no higher than standard especially if are managing an underdog team.

 

@tpalan

so the setting in image nr 1, with the line of pressing forwarders on standard,  should be better than the one in image 1?  

 

 

[tpalan]

6 hours ago, radetzky said:

@tpalan

so the setting in image nr 1, with the line of pressing forwarders on standard,  should be better than the one in image 1?  

 

 

@radetzkyFrom the images you attached my setup is more akin to number 2, I would also say you should drop pressing from "extremely urgent"  to "more urgent"  since the half way slider setting is at  "slightly urgent" already.

Full mode pressing is just too risky for this current match engine especially if you are managing a small team.

Cheers.

Edited January 12, 2020 by tpalan