Football Manager 2019 Official Feedback Thread

[Rashidi]

8 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

I wouldn't expect a lot of goals via through balls as it's not as common as people think

You did better than City this season, out of 74 goals scored this season only 2% of those assists came from a through ball.

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/7361/Stages/16368/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2018-2019

Chelsea have been outstanding with 20% of all assists being through ball, i think theirs is the best in Europe at the moment.

 

 

[Had_Enough]

38 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

You did better than City this season, out of 74 goals scored this season only 2% of those assists came from a through ball.

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/7361/Stages/16368/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2018-2019

Chelsea have been outstanding with 20% of all assists being through ball, i think theirs is the best in Europe at the moment.

 

 

Chelsea last night reminded me of Arsenal teams of old in slow motion, always looking for that final eye-of-the-needle pass. In order to pull it off the ball needed to be absolutely inch perfect, the forward run on the same wave-length or timed to perfection. Add into the equation that Utd were absolutely immense in defence as well as being allowed to get back into shape due to a lack of tempo. Smalling, Lindelof, Shaw and particularly Herrera had fantastic games, defensively. 

For me though it showed it is such a difficult style of play to pull off, especially against competent, let alone top teams but even beyond all that, how demanding it must be, week in, week out, mentally to keep preserving with such low percentage football. 

 

Now there might be some credence to the argument of seeing more attempts of this kind of play within FM (although I can't remember many teams in England attempting to play like Chelsea are trying) but the perceived effectiveness of this style of play on this forum seems a bit skewed. It's so difficult to pull off and like in real-life you're going to need great technicians and the complimentary mentals to just give yourself a fighting chance.

 

I'm exhausted just thinking of what's necessary, let alone putting it into action. 

 

The AM/striker movement is a slightly different subject and I concede could do with some improvements. 'Through balls' though - it's an over romanticised notion imo.

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Had_Enough

[SebastianRO]

38 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

You did better than City this season, out of 74 goals scored this season only 2% of those assists came from a through ball.

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/7361/Stages/16368/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2018-2019

Chelsea have been outstanding with 20% of all assists being through ball, i think theirs is the best in Europe at the moment.

 

 

 

I get the point you are making, but that has nothing to do with the fact that if I want to play a certain style I should be able to. Isn't this what football is all about ? Do we all have to play like Man City or X Y and Z ? For me, the beautiful way of playing is as I explained, but for you it might be different, and thats okay. What it's really not okay is for us to be forced into playing wide (ME wont allow any other way, anyway) just because in today's football, the coaches preffer a certain playstyle. If we are using this non-sense as an excuse for a half-baked and half - coocked ME, then why dont we see players doing  dribbles through the center of the field more often in FM ? Maybe, just maybe you see 1 nice dribble through the center / game. IMHO, the reason for that is because the ME has some sort of code that tells players to go with the most simplistic option. And do you know what that one is ? Let me tell you something that you already know: IT'S THE WIDE PASS to an unmarked overlapping fullback. It makes sense to do it from time to time, but it happens way to often and it becomes the go-to, regardless of your tactical instructions.

[Armistice]

58 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

You did better than City this season, out of 74 goals scored this season only 2% of those assists came from a through ball.

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/7361/Stages/16368/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2018-2019

Chelsea have been outstanding with 20% of all assists being through ball, i think theirs is the best in Europe at the moment.

A through ball doesn’t have to be an assist. It can be as to release a player who will cross, get a corner etc.

[MBarbaric]

when you observe a way the team plays, it is a bit misleading to look only at assists type. Judging by that one would think Man City plays the same way as Brighton. Most of the time, once you get to assist, hard part was already done. 

what is really important is off the ball movement. that is what creates space and time for an assist to happen. The thing is, FM lacks off the ball movement that would be capable of representing modern football and some people are reasonably unhappy with it. however, it will take some time for SI to sort this to an acceptable level. The problem is much deeper and runs for few years now. However, this year it is more visible as the defensive phase was "upgraded". 

[SebastianRO]

2 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

when you observe a way the team plays, it is a bit misleading to look only at assists type. Judging by that one would think Man City plays the same way as Brighton. Most of the time, once you get to assist, hard part was already done. 

what is really important is off the ball movement. that is what creates space and time for an assist to happen. The thing is, FM lacks off the ball movement that would be capable of representing modern football and some people are reasonably unhappy with it. however, it will take some time for SI to sort this to an acceptable level. The problem is much deeper and runs for few years now. However, this year it is more visible as the defensive phase was "upgraded". 

@HUNT3R@Rashidi@Had_Enough

What you just said @MBarbaric it exactly how I feel about it, Just to prove my point that every single FM edition is worse than the other, I just installed FM17, launched one of my best saves and game it a go. Sure enough, see what happens 23 minutes in. If that wasnt enough have a look at what happens at the end of the 1st half. FM13 and 14 were kings in off-the ball movement, but then everything went downhill. FM17 is the last decent version that somehow resembles beautiful football:

 

 

[Rashidi]

25 minutes ago, Armistice said:

A through ball doesn’t have to be an assist. It can be as to release a player who will cross, get a corner etc.

I was specifically referring to that cos of the discussion that led up to my point. Someone mentioned not seeing enough through  ball assists.

[Rashidi]

46 minutes ago, SebastianRO said:

 

I get the point you are making, but that has nothing to do with the fact that if I want to play a certain style I should be able to. Isn't this what football is all about ? Do we all have to play like Man City or X Y and Z ? For me, the beautiful way of playing is as I explained, but for you it might be different, and thats okay. What it's really not okay is for us to be forced into playing wide (ME wont allow any other way, anyway) just because in today's football, the coaches preffer a certain playstyle. If we are using this non-sense as an excuse for a half-baked and half - coocked ME, then why dont we see players doing  dribbles through the center of the field more often in FM ? Maybe, just maybe you see 1 nice dribble through the center / game. IMHO, the reason for that is because the ME has some sort of code that tells players to go with the most simplistic option. And do you know what that one is ? Let me tell you something that you already know: IT'S THE WIDE PASS to an unmarked overlapping fullback. It makes sense to do it from time to time, but it happens way to often and it becomes the go-to, regardless of your tactical instructions.

Then I can’t really agree with you. I have been playing the 4312, and I wanted to play it in multiple styles. It took a while with my side who are really the worst side to try it with, but the numbers in my game show that more than half of my goals are created by moves in the middle. These could be throughballs played by my playmakers or passes to release my strikers for cutbacks.

It took me a while , first few versions produced football that was too direct and risky for my liking. I think it took me nearly half a season before I settled on a system that allowed me to punch through the middle or go down a flank.

Is it very good, no. I did see a move that reminded me of something I achieved with good otb running in FM17, which was the one touch passing that goes through the middle for a goal. Good movement, poor finish.

I even had a FB play a through ball instead of a cross.  There is still some final third movement I would like to see, but I fear that this would be done at the expense of good defending. I doubt anyone wants to see the overpowered attacking trident or the splitting central defence. 

 

[MBarbaric]

36 minuti fa, SebastianRO ha scritto:

@HUNT3R@Rashidi@Had_Enough

What you just said @MBarbaric it exactly how I feel about it, Just to prove my point that every single FM edition is worse than the other, I just installed FM17, launched one of my best saves and game it a go. Sure enough, see what happens 23 minutes in. If that wasnt enough have a look at what happens at the end of the 1st half. FM13 and 14 were kings in off-the ball movement, but then everything went downhill. FM17 is the last decent version that somehow resembles beautiful football:

 

while both plays are nice to see, I'd suggest you look at them again paying particular attention on positioning of wingers in blue team. it is really horrible and closing down of three blue central midfielders is abysmal. also, centerbacks are poor at moving out of the back line to pressure the receiver.  you could basically pass around the opposition until somebody got free. still can't understand how people back then defended the ME

after fm 17 the SI tried to solve the defensive phase and in fm19 they finally got somewhere in terms of positioning of players. however, somewhere in the process all that movement from your strikers in that video got lost. hopefully SI finds a way to work around this.

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by MBarbaric

[herne79]

58 minutes ago, SebastianRO said:

 

I get the point you are making, but that has nothing to do with the fact that if I want to play a certain style I should be able to. Isn't this what football is all about ? Do we all have to play like Man City or X Y and Z ? For me, the beautiful way of playing is as I explained, but for you it might be different, and thats okay. What it's really not okay is for us to be forced into playing wide (ME wont allow any other way, anyway) just because in today's football, the coaches preffer a certain playstyle. If we are using this non-sense as an excuse for a half-baked and half - coocked ME, then why dont we see players doing  dribbles through the center of the field more often in FM ? Maybe, just maybe you see 1 nice dribble through the center / game. IMHO, the reason for that is because the ME has some sort of code that tells players to go with the most simplistic option. And do you know what that one is ? Let me tell you something that you already know: IT'S THE WIDE PASS to an unmarked overlapping fullback. It makes sense to do it from time to time, but it happens way to often and it becomes the go-to, regardless of your tactical instructions.

You're right, the ME can be improved.  Si acknowledge this and are working on it.

Re. the bolded parts however there certainly are tactical instructions you can employ to reduce (even substantially reduce) this issue, so we're really not "forced" into playing in this manner.  Obviously different styles will more or less favour such an approach, but by way of an example there's a very active thread in the Tactics forum demonstrating dribbles, through balls, lots of possession, attacking intent, player movement and so on.  I don't know if that fits in with your particular desired style, but it is an example to show what's possible.  Even if it's not really your style, you may still pick up a new idea or two .

https://community.sigames.com/topic/465977-developing-my-4123dm-wide-tiki-taka/

[MBarbaric]

 

13 minuti fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

I even had a FB play a through ball instead of a cross.

then everything must be peachy  sorry, couldn't resist.

[optimusprimal82]

It's a good question, "what does the game class as a through ball?", lord knows a similar discussion has been had regarding 'clear cut chances' for years!

Stats only tell us so much so we have to be careful on relying on them too much - just from my save, it would appear there is absolutely no issue with through balls;

 

Now i'm not saying there isn't an issue at all (more on that in a second) but to flip it on it's head, what does each of us class as a through ball, and more pertinently how many of those actually happen consistently in a real game (good few posts above this discussing this too)? Perception is a powerful influence when analysing this stuff remember, and for every person unhappy there's another who seems to be generally ok with how things are; doesn't mean that either side is 'right' - just as the game itself is all about opinions, so too will a simulation of said game be, but one thing that we can surely all agree on is that improvements can be made.

Back to the issue at hand, obviously striker movement has been/is  a problem but that aside, central play actually looks ok (admittedly not perfect, but ok ) but it's often only visible when playing against equal/bigger sides that don't see you as such a big threat - the problem is, when most people play in those games, they're either at an ability mis-match and thus tend not to see much in the way of attacking play from their own team, or the AI plays conservatively in order to not get beaten. Quick and easy example, we played Chelsea last night; as my team has overachieved so much, the game continually mis-ranks me (finished 2nd, 1st and 2nd in the EPL for the past 3 years, yet again i'm predicted to finish 6th this year) and teams like Chelsea (a team i'd argue we're not far behind first 11 wise) come and try to smash us, ignoring recent games and how they went down.

Early on, Chelsea actually take the lead with a quick counter resulting in a lovely little dinked through ball to their STC;

Luckily my guys know by now that the hairdryer would have been instantly set to 'gentle warm-up' if they didn't react and proceeded to play the sort of football some think isn't possible, the highlight being this interception and drive through the centre, culminating in a through ball to my grateful young STC who buries into the far corner;

Now I know many of you aren't claiming that this sort of thing isn't possible (although some definitely are), more that it seems far too difficult and infrequent? I'd argue it's a combination of the nature of teams the majority of people play as (namely high ability and - more importantly - high reputation), the players proclivity to choose high mentality/high tempo tactics and ultra conservative opponents whose urge to 'smash n grab' is overshadowed only by the human players desire to 'attack, attack, attack'! Turn it around; how many times is your side carved open by through balls? The AI is utilising exactly the same ME/instructions as we are and it seems perfectly able to play them (far too well in terms of the DCL/DCR over the top to pacy striker)...? I think we're all analysing/bashing/hating on the ME (and it's not unfair to say it definitely needs some improvement in the attacking sense - odd decision to improve defensive play and leave attacking for later) when (and not exactly a sherlock-esque deduction) it's more likely a combination of ME+reputation+tactics - there's a reason a fair few of us now fear the bottom 5 sides in a division more than the top teams!

We actually beat Chelsea 5-1 in the end, which would suggest that the forthcoming game against West Ham should be a walk in the park - unfortunately not in the world of FM! Whilst Chelsea (and the other big teams) come and try to play with their expansive version of the 4-2-3-1, West Ham (18th) turn up with this monstrosity;

Now we actually managed to creak through and win 1-0, but the performance was so abject and horrific that we probably should have drawn or even lost (they even missed a great chance in the last minute). Compare this to the same fixture in the season before - although my team had just won the league, our reputation was just 3.5 stars compared to the 4 we're now at, so West Ham turn up rocking a Chelsea-esque 4-2-3-1 (also scary to note how different their lineup is in the space of 6 months?);

The result? We win 5-0! It's easy to write this off as a one-off, but I - and i'm sure many - know it's anything but.

This issue/problem has only really become an issue for me in the last season or two, now I'm at the top table challenging for the top honours. I'd wager that the people happiest/less concerned with the issues this year are people who're managing all over the world/leagues like I've been until now, who aren't playing against packed defences every week and can mitigate the attacking shortcomings to a certain extent - in that situation, when you'd likely be coming up against buses you get promoted and are re-ranked as a bottom feeder again etc. I'm not suggesting the bus can't be negated at the top level too, but even the AI can have a hard time - Man Utd have an insanely good team (undoubtedly the best overall) on my save (as i've enviously waxed lyrical about previously) - they're the premier league and european champions so they beat me, thump City & Liverpool 4-0 each, but then batter Bournmeouth and only win with a penalty and own goal (look at the possession!), draw with Brighton and scrape past Stoke again with a penalty and 95th minute second;

 

 

It correlates perfectly with my own experience;

I won't post any more as I'm sure you get the idea? I'm not for a minute suggesting these type of results don't happen in real life - we all know they do, but that's a different conversation, what i'm highlighting here is the prevalence of the defensive game and the correlation with the human players perception that attacking is borked/through balls/central play isn't possible - as I mentioned before, the way the ME is set right now has created something of an inverse - at least at the top level - where playing against the top sides is often easier (within limits) than playing the teams down the bottom.

Sweeping statement time; a 'high number' is obviously relative to the small number actually posting (of course) so take with adequate salt, but in terms of people posting on the forum/other FM forums/chatting in Discord;

• A high number of players take control of a big club whose reputation is naturally sky-high
• A fair number of people take a decent/mid level club and have success (leading to their reputation increasing)
• The 'second-season-syndrome' continues to be discussed/mentioned as though it's coded to be an actual thing/their tactics have been found out
• One of the most consistently asked questions regarding tactics is how to 'beat the bus' that defensive teams bring along with them

Stands to reason based on these (frivolous) assumptions that a high number of players are using a high level, high reputation team, which correlates nicely with the oft-spoken theory that "the majority of players" are having these issues?

Edited February 20, 2019 by optimusprimal82

[MBarbaric]

@optimusprimal82

you raise a lot of good questions, however, i'd like to point out one thing.

i think nobody argues there are no through balls on counter attacks. the real problem arises in positional attacks where team faces a prepared defensive unit.

[optimusprimal82]

Oh i'm sure there's someone somewhere saying that!  

I think my main point really is that it may not actually be the through balls that are the issue - more the tactics used against us? It almost feels like the inverse of the super attacking tactics the guru's kick out each year - you know how many dismiss them/won't use them because they exploit attacking flaws? It's almost like the bottom feeding AI teams have downloaded one that exploits the defensive side of the game and closes out any through ball-esque shenanigans!

EDIT: Should have waited actually before I posted - hadn't spotted I have the all-conquering Man Utd (away) next in my save - I ordered a bus to take with me but my chairman is such a useless waste of space that instead of the requested double decker he got this;

I'll let you know how many glorious through balls they rip through my team!  

Edited February 20, 2019 by optimusprimal82

[MBarbaric]

14 minuti fa, optimusprimal82 ha scritto:

Oh i'm sure there's someone somewhere saying that!  

I think my main point really is that it may not actually be the through balls that are the issue - more the tactics used against us? It almost feels like the inverse of the super attacking tactics the guru's kick out each year - you know how many dismiss them/won't use them because they exploit attacking flaws? It's almost like the bottom feeding AI teams have downloaded one that exploits the defensive side of the game and closes out any through ball-esque shenanigans!

EDIT: Should have waited actually before I posted - hadn't spotted I have the all-conquering Man Utd (away) next in my save - I ordered a bus to take with me but my chairman is such a useless waste of space that instead of the requested double decker he got this;

I'll let you know how many glorious through balls they rip through my team!  

indeed, i think somebody somewhere already extensively wrote about very defensive mentality employed by AI. 

[Mitja]

3 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Then I can’t really agree with you. I have been playing the 4312, and I wanted to play it in multiple styles. It took a while with my side who are really the worst side to try it with, but the numbers in my game show that more than half of my goals are created by moves in the middle. These could be throughballs played by my playmakers or passes to release my strikers for cutbacks

Probably the most exploitative formation you can find for this ME

No wingers, there's no need, crossing is useless, and they don't score or offer creative threat. Three front players which AI will find nightmare to deal with if his preferred formation doesn't include a DM. Three MCs behind them to make things even worse for AI defending. And FBs always positioned perfectly, usually completely unmarked to receive pass.

[Rashidi]

7 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

 

then everything must be peachy  sorry, couldn't resist.

Only happened like once this season :-( not as rosy I am afraid :-(

[Armistice]

What has put me off FM in recent years is the fact that some features that were added over the years made the game too complex, too much micromanagement, too much time wasted to test and trial things for a game. While some of these features do bring realism it adds another strata of complexity which is not always enjoyable if you’re not an hardcore FM player. I do get that some people feel that they want more control over the club they manage but in my opinion things like training and loads of roles and duties who are similar in behaviour just makes this more confusing and hard. After all I bought the game to have fun, I think most of us did and while I appreciate that I’m put in charge of what a real club might feel like, I do not expect to have knowledge of everything that’s going on the training grounds or managers minds.

[akkm]

Interesting discussion above

one thing on the issue of perception...I'd extend this to bias and it's a pertinent issue of current times with the entrenchment of people's bias/perceptions all over the world being engineered and exploited by populists/propaganda/fake news giving rise to the likes of brexit/election of trump and populists all over and social media enabling the propagation of this through filter bubbles/echo chambers. What we see in situations of economic downturns and social disaffection peoples perceptions and biases are more easily 'manipulated'/played upon with them becoming crystallise in minds to the detriment of reality, facts and evidence. In essence this shows that humans have a tendency to inuldge bias/perception to make themselves feel good about themselves and have their opinions 'confirmed' even though they can sometimes be demonstrably false...or basically people when they want to believe something will believe it no matter what.

This leads to football...one of the reasons for it's popularity is it lends itself to varying opinions allowing people to hold theirs up against another and ultimately as it's not scientific can walk away and still feel good about themselves and say 'it's a game of opinions' therefore who's to say who is right or wrong. Extending this further to football when people say there's no right or wrong way to play the game...this is broadly a fair comment...but when you start to get deep in the weeds there are BETTER ways to play than others...once one starts to argue against that then one is going down the road of indulging bias.

This then starts to feed into point below

3 hours ago, optimusprimal82 said:

Perception is a powerful influence when analysing this stuff remember, and for every person unhappy there's another who seems to be generally ok with how things are; doesn't mean that either side is 'right' - just as the game itself is all about opinions, so too will a simulation of said game be, but one thing that we can surely all agree on is that improvements can be made.

 

I agree with all that...but it's also absolutely the case that one side can actually be right in certain instances and it's not a 'the game itself and therefore the simulation is all about opinions' yes it is of course about opinions but not all those opinions are correct. I'm not suggesting that you're saying that it's not an issue but what I will say is that approach or an 'agree to disagree' can actually compromise the significance of issue itself in terms of 'well people can have different opinions therefore it's not really an issue'...again I'm not saying you're saying it's not an issue but perhaps arguing more the scale/extent of the issue but the bottom line is it is a major issue in terms of how quality players and teams operate from an attacking point of view and how they go about breaking down teams in the real world being undersimulated in FM.

Passing decision making/execution and player movement are the biggest deficiencies currently in FM in attacking third to enable quality attacking incision/patterns which we see in real world footballing meaning the way/the how teams create/score is displaced towards the wings/wider play disproportionately over the years.

 

few points of note

Firstly is that those who defend number assists from crosses cite FMs broader definition of what constitutes a cross to defend it's overuse of crosses as a means to create openings/goals yet at the same time cite real world through ball assist stats to uphold a notion that real world assists from through balls are what they are therefore FM assists from through balls are ok and therefore there's not really an issue even real world stats taking whoscored definition of a through ball is a rather narrow one and likely much narrower than FM (have seen that on other threads)...so that's inconsistent in itself

secondly the reference to through balls (which is an issue for sure) in any discussion of undersimulated central play should be broadened to threaded passes into feet/tighter spaces/pen area and other subtle/guile/incisive passes one twos etc as well as through balls as a means to open up defences of all sorts...deep lying/normal/high lined ones, set defensive units/transitioning units etc...it shouldn't be limited to how one defines a through ball as there are other creative passes which occur in all phases of play which need bumping up and as also mentioned above...a through ball may lead to an initial opening to set up a goal further on in a move not necessarily just an assist.

@MBarbaric makes a key point here

2 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

i think nobody argues there are no through balls on counter attacks. the real problem arises in positional attacks where team faces a prepared defensive unit.

Again we have many examples of FM producing through balls on counter attacks but through balls/threaded passes/subtle passes when playing against prepared defensive unit/deeper lying defences are an undeniable issue. 

Just to go back to perceptions about real world football. One may regularly see/hear opinions that playing against deep lying/prepared defensive units you will see more goals from crosses/long shots/set pieces and more instances of long shots/crosses because of the difficulty of breaking down these defences. Also one should be cognisant of deep lying/set defences are difficult to break down in themselves and certainly are generally harder to break down than normal/higher defensive set ups/lines but the perception of the difficulty of breaking these defences and the how is also misplaced. 

Take man city for example

Man City	goals	assists		goals			shots
	set pieces	crosses		open play	inside box		outside box
2017/18	20%	17%		80%	88%		38%
2018/19	10%	18%		90%	87%		32%

 

Prem	goals	assists		goals			shots
	set pieces	crosses		open play	inside box		outside box
2017/18	27%	19%		73%	87%		40%
2018/19	29%	18%		71%	87%		38%

What this shows is that despite playing against deep lying defences more than (arguably in prem anyway) all other teams Man City score less than average number of goals from set pieces and more from open play, assists from crosses are broadly in line with other teams and city actually take shots from outside the box LESS than the average...so all this is the opposite which I've often seen held up as a way to breakdown deep lying defences...the opposite is in effect in the real world using City as example and this is what is missing from FMs engine. In FM breaking down deep lying defences is overly reliant on patterns at odds with the real world...so basically what this shows is that more crossing/more long shots/more goals from set pieces to breakdown defensive sides just isn't a thing in real world football so it shouldn't be a thing in FM.

 

Taking this back to FM and the issue of central play and extending the conversation beyond through balls (though they are a big deal) to other types of incisive passes then one can see they are definitely undersimulated. Of course no one should expect any team to consistently open up deep lying defences with ease game in game out as that's not a real world thing either but the frequency and tendencies that quality teams try things is not being replicated in FM. 

Other things such as frequency(even within a match)/tendency of AI teams to set up lower defensive blocks is definitely a contributing factor but it essentially masks underlying pass selection/decision making not identifying openings and executing passes when opportunities arise...so key elements of how teams pass and move to create openings are missing in FM.

 

Another perception issue is use of width/wings/crossing in FM vs real world to break down deeper lying defences a la city do

FM classification of how they see a cross differs from many real world stats collectors and whilst that can nebulize things it's fair enough to explain certain differences of numbers of crosses/assists from crosses...the issue is how play is simulated to get the situation of where the likes of city 'crosses/cut backs' are played from and the play which unfolds to get the likes of sterling/sane into said situation

a lot of play in FM has feeling of pass pass pass and then out wide leading to cross which causes more trouble than everything that preceded it...basically again crosses seem disproportionately dangerous Vs players creativity centrally...i'm talking about crosses from out wide as opposed to low crosses from inside channels in and around edges of pen area you see from city so again this is a misrepresentation of real world football...crosses from out wide are actually very easily defended by deep lying defences...the low crosses/cutbacks from inside channels less so...but there is a subtle yet enormous difference between the two

I generally make above distinction when talking about crosses as its clear city make a lot of use of these inside channels cut backs/square balls/low crosses or whatever terminology one may use. The thing is as I say there's actually a huge difference between them and crosses from wider positions...obviously positionally for starters but then the ones city employ tend to be lower and closer to pen area/edge or in pen area so automatically the proximity to recipient and 'on the ground' pass/cut back/cross is increasing the probability of a goal being scored...its easier for attacker to finish a chance like this than a cross from wider through the air and also very simply and perhaps most pertinently the player playing the cut back/cross is in a position to more accurately pick out the player in the pen area being closer and the play which has preceded it has been played slickly and fluidly to get player like sterling/sane into a highly advantageous position for said situation...all of it is with the intent to increase the probability to score/create a higher quality chance.

the how is also a very important distinction to be made...watching city you will see that how they get the ball into these positions is through incisive play working the ball fluidly through spaces and often the preceding pass into the path of the runner to play cut back/low cross is vertical/diagonal one taking out a FB or CB but there is the incision/penetration pass wise...the preceding pass often isn't from out to in which is an important thing to simulate properly going forward

 

quick review of man city goals Vs Chelsea and arsenal

vs chelsea

- sterling 1st goal...de bruyne inside to bernardo...bernardo drives deep into pen area for cut back/low cross...almost on edge of 6 yard box...so played from 7 yards out and from edge of 6 yard box so very close to goal

- aguero sitter was cut back/low cross from zinchenko near goal line and maybe 3 yards away from 6yb to bernardo who moved into nearly same position to play ball across the goal from

- aguero 1st goal..zinchenko cuts INSIDE albeit wonder strike

- aguero 2nd goal...zinchenko cuts INSIDE flipped air pass which caused havoc...error strewn from there...were that in FM people would be all over it with bug reports lol

- gundogan...aguero laid it outside alright to sterling in a classic wide position but from there sterling played a threaded lateral pass INSIDE to aguero feet and miscontrolled cleared bang goal

- aguero pen...fernandinho out to sterling is very FMesque pass to out wide as yes it happens for sure (just too often in FM) but from there sterling drives at FB (on azpi outside) but he's driving diagonally towards goal

- sterling 2nd goal...this is classic city play...silva threaded pass (which I personally consider a through ball though that's not how stats providers would class it) into zinchenko between two players INSIDE outer defender for zinc to play low cross from edge of area.

 

vs arsenal

- laporte gets breaking ball...hits cross from just inside pen area...was chest height

- fernandinho FM type ball out wide to sterling...but from there sterling passes inside to gundogan who dinks it over the top to sterling making run inside and connection he makes is on edge of 6 yard box square ball to aguero

- sterling gets ball on edge of pen area again but drives into box but plays ball across box from 7 yards from byline and between edge of pen area and 6 yard box

Basically all the cut backs/crosses were low and mostly well inside pen area or edge of pen area like laporte assist and generally passes come from centralish positions to inside channels in or around edge of pen area and if passes to outside then sane/sterling will drive inside or try and get into inside channels to receive passes for cut backs/low crosses/laterals to others inside pen area.

 

so that's the breakdown of city's goals so really while it may perceived that city are using width and wings it's really not the way many people think it's being used...it's almost an illusion...the runs are coming from the wider areas but the ball generally isn't or basically sane and sterling maintain their width (nominally to stretch opposition) but then make runs inside to receive pass from a silva/bernardo/de bruyne/gundogan who are in a central position playing said pass to an optimal position in an inside channel as close to or inside the pen area as possible and as deep (close to goal line) as possible.

in FM I don't see the same situations city create in terms of build up and what precedes the moment where player receives the ball and certainly not with frequency with which these cut backs are played...ie the tendency in FM is for crosses from out wider and more through the air...so really again this Vs real world is at odds a bit and tweaking this (for next year) will be a game changer

 

with regard to this

6 hours ago, optimusprimal82 said:

I think we're all analysing/bashing/hating on the ME (and it's not unfair to say it definitely needs some improvement in the attacking sense - odd decision to improve defensive play and leave attacking for later) when (and not exactly a sherlock-esque deduction) it's more likely a combination of ME+reputation+tactics - there's a reason a fair few of us now fear the bottom 5 sides in a division more than the top teams!

Clearly all together compound issues but this in itself suggests the undersimulation of repeated quality attacking patterns and more incisive/pentrative play is a real and far from perceived issue...and indeed a big issue. If it weren't then despite playing increased reputation and tactics of deeper lying defences on their own would be ok really...so increased rep causes teams to employ more defensive/deep lying defences against said increased/high rep...nothing untoward there...that happens in real world football so fair enough in FM. 

However having it trickier playing against bottom 5 sides than top 5 ones...then that of course is indicative of an issue plain and simple. What the issue is...even more plainly and more simply...is the simulation of creativity/passing incision/movement/how the ball gets used and moved around centrally and in and around inside channels in open play to breakdown these defences is at odds with the real world...after all teams playing against lower based teams tend to average more goals per game than against top based teams...so in essence it IS the attacking play not up to scratch is the crux of it. Its undeniable. Were it more in line with real world play the high rep teams in FM should be able to go about things as high rep teams in real world teams do...as you suggest the opposite can be in effect in FM sometimes...so that's actually a very big deal really. After all it is the Man Citys/Barcas/PSGs who play most deep lying defences yet they're the ones scoring the most goals over the course of a season in the real world...should that not be happening and most importantly reflecting the 'how' that's happening is an obvious shortfall in FM. Essentially FM isn't simulating the tools to unlock these types of defences to the level or attempted frequency in real world. Of course there will be struggles and tight matches of odd goals victories/losses and draws but the difficulty of breaking them down and the 'how' isn't currently simulated as it should be.

 

So all in all central play IS a big issue and perceptions underestimating this are misplaced. SI is aware of issues here and have tried to improve certain aspects to enhance enjoyment for this year. Whether all that lands this year remains to be seen but identifying the extent of this is important so it can be addressed as required to produce a more realistic engine which produces attacking creativity/incision/patterns/movement as we see in the real world.

[SebastianRO]

@Armistice I can see where you are coming from. I feel the same way to a certain extent. All new features need screen space which makes the interface cluttered on some panels (not all of them). The choice of skins this year dont help with that either. That purple’ish thing is not a great option because it is brighter than it has to be, while the dark one is too high in contrast on most panels. 

Speaking of training, i think it really needed a revamp, so I agree with a change, but SI really went in depth with this one. This is probably the best thing in the world for some FM players that have extensive knowledge about training IRL, or for the FM players with lots of time to spend in game. However, for the average or new players this bew training system is a nightmare. I got one of my friends into loving and playing FM in 2017. He needed about a year until he was comfortable with the game ( by FM 2018’s life cycle ended ) and when he has seen 2019’s training system, you could have seen sheer disbelief on his face. It was priceless.

The point I am trying to make is that change is needed sometimes because certain features hit a platoo, but lets not go in full bananas. Try to introduce new / revamped features slowly and then act based on feedback.

 

[Martin#2]

9 hours ago, optimusprimal82 said:

Stands to reason based on these (frivolous) assumptions that a high number of players are using a high level, high reputation team, which correlates nicely with the oft-spoken theory that "the majority of players" are having these issues?

You are right. In FM19 it is easier to play against a top side and AI has the same issues. I play in La Liga, Atletico Madrid are the second best team. They regularly beat Barca, Valencia, even Real Madrid (Me), but drop points against relegation teams. It happens in real life as well (Liverpool for example) but in FM all top sides have this issue. Barca always end up 25 points behind me because they keep drawing and losing to teas such as Huesca, Valladolid etc. Then they smash Juventus 6-1 in the UCL.

The attacking phase is very problematic in this ME and it is made worse by insanely negative tactics employed by AI teams. Do you remember Mourinho´s Inter vs Barca in 2010 UCL semifinals? Well, that is your bread and butter in FM, your average game against a bottom team. I frequently have games where AI does not even ATTEMPT to shoot, let alone hit the target, and these games include matches against teams of the calibre of Porto, Sevilla, Inter Milan.

By the way, what has happened to close range finishing in ME 1926? Finishing was already poor and I thought they would nerf long range goals, not close range! I´ve already had 2 games where I hit the woodwork 5 times!! I can have up to 20 shots on target in a single game, ridiculous. How often does that happen? World class strikers missing chance after chance, goalkeepers are now super human, we are back to November when the only way to score was from a set piece. If any one believes that finishing was bad in ME 1922, I highly recommend not updating the game at all, at least do not use Beta engine, you will hate it, it is 10 times worse.

[andu1]

1 hour ago, Martin#2 said:

You are right. In FM19 it is easier to play against a top side and AI has the same issues. I play in La Liga, Atletico Madrid are the second best team. They regularly beat Barca, Valencia, even Real Madrid (Me), but drop points against relegation teams. It happens in real life as well (Liverpool for example) but in FM all top sides have this issue. Barca always end up 25 points behind me because they keep drawing and losing to teas such as Huesca, Valladolid etc. Then they smash Juventus 6-1 in the UCL.

The attacking phase is very problematic in this ME and it is made worse by insanely negative tactics employed by AI teams. Do you remember Mourinho´s Inter vs Barca in 2010 UCL semifinals? Well, that is your bread and butter in FM, your average game against a bottom team. I frequently have games where AI does not even ATTEMPT to shoot, let alone hit the target, and these games include matches against teams of the calibre of Porto, Sevilla, Inter Milan.

By the way, what has happened to close range finishing in ME 1926? Finishing was already poor and I thought they would nerf long range goals, not close range! I´ve already had 2 games where I hit the woodwork 5 times!! I can have up to 20 shots on target in a single game, ridiculous. How often does that happen? World class strikers missing chance after chance, goalkeepers are now super human, we are back to November when the only way to score was from a set piece. If any one believes that finishing was bad in ME 1922, I highly recommend not updating the game at all, at least do not use Beta engine, you will hate it, it is 10 times worse.

there are threads open in the publiv beta bugs forum regarding the lower goals count and attacking movement. I think its best to use that forum. I agree with you about big teams unable to score. For example in a test save with ME1927 City only scored 66 games the whole season!

[Mitja]

11 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

while both plays are nice to see, I'd suggest you look at them again paying particular attention on positioning of wingers in blue team. it is really horrible and closing down of three blue central midfielders is abysmal. also, centerbacks are poor at moving out of the back line to pressure the receiver.  you could basically pass around the opposition until somebody got free. still can't understand how people back then defended the ME

after fm 17 the SI tried to solve the defensive phase and in fm19 they finally got somewhere in terms of positioning of players. however, somewhere in the process all that movement from your strikers in that video got lost. hopefully SI finds a way to work around this.

 

Can't really agree those wingers at least try to mark somebody.  MCs horrible positioning still hasn't improved much, new sliders don't necessarily mean improvements in ME.

[SebastianRO]

@Mitja Agree, i would go even further and say that we dont even know what the AI opponent asked those CMs to do in terms of closing down and tackling. Its evident that they refrained from attacking my players , but in other games they rush me as soon as I have the ball, so I wouldnt say that closing down is horrible in FM17. And as you pointed out, at least the wingers are marking my Wing-backs which are in support duties in my classic diamond.

[westy8chimp]

[Mitja]

45 minutes ago, SebastianRO said:

@Mitja Agree, i would go even further and say that we dont even know what the AI opponent asked those CMs to do in terms of closing down and tackling. Its evident that they refrained from attacking my players , but in other games they rush me as soon as I have the ball, so I wouldnt say that closing down is horrible in FM17. And as you pointed out, at least the wingers are marking my Wing-backs which are in support duties in my classic diamond.

Diamond had traditionally been hard to defend against since it has men advantage in central midfield. I think AI is doing good job there, MCs could be more decisive with tackling and DM looks a little lost but nothing has been improved since.

[SebastianRO]

@Mitja It has been bard to defend against, but not really that hard in FM18 and FM19 because the movement off the ball and attacking paterns were all about wide areas (just like FM16) and wide areas are the weekest in the diamond. However, in FM17 the diamond does a reasonably good job.

[MBarbaric]

2 ore fa, SebastianRO ha scritto:

@Mitja Agree, i would go even further and say that we dont even know what the AI opponent asked those CMs to do in terms of closing down and tackling. Its evident that they refrained from attacking my players , but in other games they rush me as soon as I have the ball, so I wouldnt say that closing down is horrible in FM17. And as you pointed out, at least the wingers are marking my Wing-backs which are in support duties in my classic diamond.

why would those wingers defend the flanks when their team has obvious disadvantage (3v4) in the most dangerous part of the pitch (in front of their own goal)? what is the logic there? 

what those wingers are actually doing is being taken out of play allowing the opposition to easily dominate the center. any half decent coach would see that within 10 minutes and adjust. you might like it since it allows some neat football, but it only shows you don't understand how football works. i don't mean this as a dig at you personnaly as a lot of people on these boards think they won CL in FM so they must understand how football works. 

 

[SebastianRO]

11 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

why would those wingers defend the flanks when their team has obvious disadvantage (3v4) in the most dangerous part of the pitch (in front of their own goal)? what is the logic there? 

what those wingers are actually doing is being taken out of play allowing the opposition to easily dominate the center. any half decent coach would see that within 10 minutes and adjust. you might like it since it allows some neat football, but it only shows you don't understand how football works. i don't mean this as a dig at you personnaly as a lot of people on these boards think they won CL in FM so they must understand how football works. 

 

I see your point of view. The reason for the wingers marking my wing-backs is very simple: they either have been asked to man mark, or they haven’t been instructed otherwise. I get your point and I also understand football. My players were passing relaxed in the middle without posing a huge threat to the opposition ( at least until the last 2 passes that knocked them out). No winger in real life would have rushed in the center if there is no immediate threat against a team who is 2 times better than you and at the cost of leaving my wingback 1 vs 1 against their full-back. 

[Mitja]

12 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

why would those wingers defend the flanks when their team has obvious disadvantage (3v4) in the most dangerous part of the pitch (in front of their own goal)? what is the logic there? 

what those wingers are actually doing is being taken out of play allowing the opposition to easily dominate the center. any half decent coach would see that within 10 minutes and adjust. you might like it since it allows some neat football, but it only shows you don't understand how football works. i don't mean this as a dig at you personnaly as a lot of people on these boards think they won CL in FM so they must understand how football works. 

 

Because somebody has to defend that area eventually. And they do tuck in there to help centrally. But it's the forward too who needs to be a little more engaged there with their DM when opponents have man advantage.

[Gegenklaus]

My Dortmund side are doing quite well doing the second season. So teams starts being REALLY defensive. Like this Zenit-side:

"Ait, boys go for the space at the corner flags!"

 

[MBarbaric]

23 minuti fa, SebastianRO ha scritto:

I see your point of view. The reason for the wingers marking my wing-backs is very simple: they either have been asked to man mark, or they haven’t been instructed otherwise. I get your point and I also understand football. My players were passing relaxed in the middle without posing a huge threat to the opposition ( at least until the last 2 passes that knocked them out). No winger in real life would have rushed in the center if there is no immediate threat against a team who is 2 times better than you and at the cost of leaving my wingback 1 vs 1 against their full-back. 

it isn't about wingers rushing inside. it is all about space. think about it. why is Messi so good? he can do so much with so little time and even less space. The most important thing for an individual defender isn't to win the ball back. it is to delay, slow down and direct the opposition towards less dangerous space. the same applies for the whole defensive unit. it isn't (principaly) about winning the ball back, it is to delay the opposition (to get more men back into position), slow down the opposition movement (to take out the momentum) and to move them towards less dangerous space (this can be towards the flanks or towards the zone where you have more team mates).

the last point is crucial - towards the flanks and where you have more players. The reason is that flank is the zone where the opposition movmement and passing options are far more predictable. Compared to central corridor where the opposition has 360 degrees of movement, on the flanks they have 180 degrees. On the top of that, the flanks are further away from the goal. 

so to get back to those wingers, what they want to do is not to rush into the central corridor to win the ball, but to stick closer to central pleyers in order to reduce the space (and time) the opposition has on the ball. 

/                                                                              / 

/  ML-----------------CM--------CM-----------------MR  /

/                                                                               /

Above line is far less effective at defending than the line below, especially if CM's are overloaded by the nature of two formations

/                                                                              /

/             ML--------CM------CM---------MR             /

/                                                                             /

 

as far as second bolded part... you said everything yourself. 

"My players were passing relaxed in the middle without posing a huge threat" - as soon as you are in the middle you pose a threat to defending team. in fact, you've outpassed them in matter of seconds and got 1v1 against a goalkeeper. I'd be happy to concede 1v1 on the flank anytime  if the other possibility is to concede a 1v1 in the box. also, 1v1 on the flank doesn't need to be a 1v1 as the ball needs to travel towards the flank which gives the defensive unit time to shift over and cover that space. most frequent way is for FB to put immediate pressure on the receiver while the ML/CB  drop into cover.

@Mitja

indeed, striker(s) also need to do their part

Edited February 20, 2019 by MBarbaric

[SebastianRO]

@Mitja @MBarbaric Completly agree. I mean, if you look at my 2nd video, both opp wingers have the tendency to tuck inside when the ball is on their side, but  as soon as the ball leaves that area, they go back to the flanks. It is perfectly logical what they are doing. For example, in my diamonds, sometimes I ask my strikers to mark and harass the opposition wingers. 

[BigV]

13 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

it isn't about wingers rushing inside. it is all about space. think about it. why is Messi so good? he can do so much with so little time and even less space. The most important thing for an individual defender isn't to win the ball back. it is to delay, slow down and direct the opposition towards less dangerous space. the same applies for the whole defensive unit. it isn't (principaly) about winning the ball back, it is to delay the opposition (to get more men back into position), slow down the opposition movement (to take out the momentum) and to move them towards less dangerous space (this can be towards the flanks or towards the zone where you have more team mates).

the last point is crucial - towards the flanks and where you have more players. The reason is that flank is the zone where the opposition movmement and passing options are far more predictable. Compared to central corridor where the opposition has 360 degrees of movement, on the flanks they have 180 degrees. On the top of that, the flanks are further away from the goal. 

so to get back to those wingers, what they want to do is not to rush into the central corridor to win the ball, but to stick closer to central pleyers in order to reduce the space (and time) the opposition has on the ball. 

/                                                                              / 

/  ML-----------------CM--------CM-----------------MR  /

/                                                                               /

Above line is far less effective at defending than the line below, especially if CM's are overloaded by the nature of two formations

/                                                                              /

/             ML--------CM------CM---------MR             /

/                                                                             /

 

@Mitja

indeed, strikers also need to do their part

Both are reasonable arguments. FM17 had a few issues and 1 could be this HOWEVER, it looks like they're playing a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 and the wingers are occupying that space for when or either fullback overlaps. If they come inside and let those flanks free they'll just attack that area. The DM/CM should close down quicker or get tighter which isn't the issue of the user or maybe AI but the attribute and the player itself. In 17 you couldn't do much in terms of defensive changes like width/narrow compared to what you can do now. To me that is very important when seeing these 2 vids especially the first. If im not mistaken the width in 17 wasn't just when you had the ball but off the ball as in out of possession. To me those wingers look like AMR/AML rather than MR/ML as they're not deep enough to cover those grounds a MR/ML would. If the play is central and 3CM's are covering the basis the simple and first thought would be to play wide which the user must've chose not to or the players ignored/chose to do it their own way at the opportunity.  

[MBarbaric]

5 minuti fa, SebastianRO ha scritto:

@Mitja @MBarbaric Completly agree. I mean, if you look at my 2nd video, both opp wingers have the tendency to tuck inside when the ball is on their side, but  as soon as the ball leaves that area, they go back to the flanks. It is perfectly logical what they are doing. For example, in my diamonds, sometimes I ask my strikers to mark and harass the opposition wingers. 

What??? Gruic and Coqueline are constantly between their wingers and CM's, allowing them to receive the ball and pass it vertically without ever getting close.

Instead, they cover passing lanes towards the full backs that have zero influence on the play. that is exact opposite to what they should be doing. If they were 5m away from their CM's (instead of 10), your Grujic and Coqueline would never be able to trap the ball and pass it towards the edge of the box and they would need to either pass back or sideways. 

Where's that emoji with head banging against the wall ????

[MBarbaric]

1 minuto fa, BigV ha scritto:

Both are reasonable arguments. FM17 had a few issues and 1 could be this HOWEVER, it looks like they're playing a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 and the wingers are occupying that space for when or either fullback overlaps. If they come inside and let those flanks free they'll just attack that area. The DM/CM should close down quicker or get tighter which isn't the issue of the user or maybe AI but the attribute and the player itself. In 17 you couldn't do much in terms of defensive changes like width/narrow compared to what you can do now. To me that is very important when seeing these 2 vids especially the first. If im not mistaken the width in 17 wasn't just when you had the ball but off the ball as in out of possession. To me those wingers look like AMR/AML rather than MR/ML as they're not deep enough to cover those grounds a MR/ML would. If the play is central and 3CM's are covering the basis the simple and first thought would be to play wide which the user must've chose not to or the players ignored/chose to do it their own way at the opportunity.  

no they are not!!!

"wingers are occupying that space for when or either fullback overlaps. If they come inside and let those flanks free they'll just attack that area." 

So what? flanks are further away from the goal, there is very unfavorable angle, the ball needs time to get to the other flank, the player receiving the ball needs to trap it, get his head up and move forward. By that time, the full back is already near and if the defensive unit is any good, he will also have cover. Besides, the video shows exactly why they shouldn't stay wide - they conceded a goal for crist's sake! precisely because wingers stayed wide and didn't bother to come inside to prevent those opposition CM's from receiving and making a vertical pass towards the edge of the box.

How difficult it is to understand that a pass towards the edge of the box is way more dangerous than pass towards the flank? Especially since you have the video to see it in HD  

 

[SebastianRO]

@MBarbaric We can agree or disagree on what the wingers should have done, but thats not the point of the latest discussion. The point is that someone suggested that the problem was that the ME in FM17 was not good defensively specifically because the wingers or CMs weren’t closing down as much as they should have. The thing is that we dont know what instructions Has the AI used. If the AI would have asked the wingers to man mark or close down that area / men, they would have done it. Same goes for the AI central mids. In conclusion, it’s not necessarly a ME problem, to me its looking more like poor tactics from AI.

[MBarbaric]

3 minuti fa, SebastianRO ha scritto:

The point is that someone suggested that the problem was that the ME in FM17 was not good defensively specifically because the wingers or CMs weren’t closing down as much as they should have.

i know, I've said that

3 minuti fa, SebastianRO ha scritto:

The thing is that we dont know what instructions Has the AI used. If the AI would have asked the wingers to man mark or close down that area / men, they would have done it. Same goes for the AI central mids. In conclusion, it’s not necessarly a ME problem, to me its looking more like poor tactics from AI.

Instructions don't matter. Nor do the positions AML/ML. There is certain rules to defensive organization in football and whatever the instructions are, some basic rules of defending should be adhered to within the ME since this game wants to represent football manager's job on and off the pitch.

The same goes for striker's movement in current FM,. It simply defies some fundamental principles of how modern football is played in offensive phase. akkm made a great post further up that explains it way better than I ever could.

Defending in FM 17 was fundamentally flawed (and your examples show it perfectly). SI has remedied that to a point with FM 19. however, in new FM we got fundamental flaws within offensive phase. it was never really representative of modern football, but it is more evident now since SI adjusted the defensive phase.

[Mitja]

Well it is a me issue since 4141 shape easily defends against any formation including diamonds. But this is specific situation, diamond has always been hard to deal with in FM. Those wingers should have helped centrally much more effectively, DM is clueless there, there's no true team effort, basics of zonal defending are nowhere to be seen. 

But none of the issues hasn't been improved in fm19, defensive width is poorly implemented and for AI it does more harm than good. I liked it more before when defensive width was controlled by d-line.

[Mitja]

10 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

SI has remedied that to a point with FM 19.

How ,with what? With defensive width? With making movement and half of attacking arsenal non existent? With all teams packing 10 men in box? With use of formations that have 6 midfielders? ...

[MBarbaric]

"How ,with what? With defensive width? With making movement and half of attacking arsenal non existent? With all teams packing 10 men in box? With use of formations that have 6 midfielders? ..."

well "improve" might be a strong word as you can still see teams stretched all over the place on higher mentalites. however, at least there was some work done in that regard. Where it really improved is teams sitting deep, parking the bus. that looks tight and with rgiht shape and vertical/horizontal distances. i'd argue all teams should look like that in their own half with differences for D-line height.

that is one of the reasons  why it is so difficult to break these teams down through possession football. ME simply has no tools to break it down with consistency. @akkm explained that to a great detail in a post above.

Edited February 20, 2019 by MBarbaric

[GerdMuller]

Am 23.11.2018 um 13:43 schrieb Martin#:

His composure is 19. The other guy with 19 penalty attribute has composure 15 (eden hazard). Another guy in this forum already complained about penalties. i am changing penalty taker to a dude with 14 and i´ll see what happens. So far I have taken 15 penalties and converted 5.

They secretely changed the code so lower atts make them convert, better just to **** you off. Seems logical.

[Mitja]

6 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

Where it really improved is teams sitting deep, parking the bus. that looks tight and with rgiht shape and vertical/horizontal....

Cant agree here and @akkm post (and other) explains why that's not the case. Not because of good defending but because of poor attacking, lack of quality movement, passing, decision making...

[BigV]

26 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

no they are not!!!

"wingers are occupying that space for when or either fullback overlaps. If they come inside and let those flanks free they'll just attack that area." 

So what? flanks are further away from the goal, there is very unfavorable angle, the ball needs time to get to the other flank, the player receiving the ball needs to trap it, get his head up and move forward. By that time, the full back is already near and if the defensive unit is any good, he will also have cover. Besides, the video shows exactly why they shouldn't stay wide - they conceded a goal for crist's sake! precisely because wingers stayed wide and didn't bother to come inside to prevent those opposition CM's from receiving and making a vertical pass towards the edge of the box.

How difficult it is to understand that a pass towards the edge of the box is way more dangerous than pass towards the flank? Especially since you have the video to see it in HD  

 

I don't think you've grasped what I was saying or I didn't mention it right so ill explain it again but simpler. The wingers have dropped back enough to cover the flanks IF they decide to attack that route (doesn't mean it'll work) but because they are playing central and see an opportunity they take it and the factors leading to the goals are the player mistakes of marking and closing down or even trying to tackle. These are 2 sides that are on the fringes of European competitions, mistakes and goals like this happen in real life. 

Moving on to the hypothetical issue of moving inside for the wingers WHICH ISN'T THEIR JOB NOR ROLE passing out wide is always an option, it's stretching play disrupting their shape. If playing central towards the box is so useful why doesn't everyone do it and in real life?! because it's simple to stretch play and either run to the byline cross/cut back and work it in.  If the wingers were inside then the WB/FB could've easily been able to put a cross in on either side and most of all in a dangerous position regardless of what you think about is dangerous or not. There's a reason why "wide play" is used... 

Then you have to think how they've set up and what their instructions are, if the formation is 4-3-3/ 4-2-3-1 you aren't going to find you winger at a full back position are you unless you change your tactic of either going defensive/cautious or parking the bus which doesn't seem like the case here at all. FM 17 doesn't have the defensive aspects of what we have in 19 nor does it have fairly modern type of what roles and situations where defensive lines can be changed and pressing. In 19 you have aspects of showing formations when defensive even if its unintentional but it's close to what you want so you accept it. Your view to me seems to be naive towards crossing and wide play which is very real otherwise we'd all just shove 10 players in the middle without a second thought.   

[Mitja]

Here's teams parking the bus. There's so much wrong with both teams positions, it's unbelievable. Such situation would never happen in fm17.

Want more?

Edited February 20, 2019 by Mitja

[Mitja]

Issues when AI teams faces extra men in midfield and "wrong" duties assigned. City lost possession battle like schoolboys.

[MBarbaric]

15 minuti fa, BigV ha scritto:

I don't think you've grasped what I was saying or I didn't mention it right so ill explain it again but simpler. The wingers have dropped back enough to cover the flanks IF they decide to attack that route (doesn't mean it'll work) but because they are playing central and see an opportunity they take it and the factors leading to the goals are the player mistakes of marking and closing down or even trying to tackle. These are 2 sides that are on the fringes of European competitions, mistakes and goals like this happen in real life.�

Moving on to the hypothetical issue of moving inside for the wingers WHICH ISN'T THEIR JOB NOR ROLE passing out wide is always an option, it's stretching play disrupting their shape. If playing central towards the box is so useful why doesn't everyone do it and in real life?! because it's simple to stretch play and either run to the byline cross/cut back and work it in.� If the wingers were inside then the WB/FB could've easily been able to put a cross in on either side and most of all in a dangerous position regardless of what you think about is dangerous or not. There's a reason why "wide play" is used...�

Then you have to think how they've set up and what their instructions are, if the formation is 4-3-3/ 4-2-3-1 you aren't going to find you winger at a full back position are you unless you change your tactic of either going defensive/cautious or parking the bus which doesn't seem like the case here at all. FM 17 doesn't have the defensive aspects of what we have in 19 nor does it have fairly modern type of what roles and situations where defensive lines can be changed and pressing. In 19 you have aspects of showing formations when defensive even if its unintentional but it's close to what you want so you accept it. Your view to me seems to be naive towards crossing and wide play which is very real otherwise we'd all just shove 10 players in the middle without a second thought.���

You are so wrong i won't bother thinkig of a response. I'll just quote this:

Forcing Inefficient Attacking Strategies

Through control of the centre of the pitch, a compact defence can force the opposition into one of the most inefficient attacking strategies – crossing. An analysis by Michael Caley (MC_of_A on twitter) found that headed shots and shots assisted from crosses have a conversion rate much lower than normal shots from the same position (you can find the relevant analysis here). It is a common sight than when the central passing lanes are covered with little usable space within the defensive block, the attacking team will resort to passing to the only free advanced player – the full-back. In a lot of these situations the full-back will then cross from a deep position – the most inefficient position to cross from.

and the rest on defensive organization you can read here:

https://spielverlagerung.com/2015/05/08/tactical-theory-compactness/

7 minuti fa, Mitja ha scritto:

Here's team parking the bus. There's so much wrong with both teams positions, it's unbelievable.

there's nothing apparently wrong from defensive organization point of view on both screenshots.

[Mitja]

Sure that's why Liverpool had 115 crosses in that game. What's that emoji?!

Edited February 20, 2019 by Mitja

[MBarbaric]

6 minuti fa, Mitja ha scritto:

Sure that's why Liverpool had 115 crosses in that game. What's that emoji?!

as far as I am concerned,  that is the problem of offensive organization, which we can agree it isn't up to standard. Defence did great to force them to play ineffective football. the last screenshot you posted looks horrible indeed, but I was talking about improvement when the team defends deep in their half, not when they press or whatever they do on that screenshot.

[Guest]

Hi,

What I like to see in Football Manager 2020:

- Fixed interviews (it's the same questions over and over and over since FM17).
- Improvements in 3D Enginee. FM19 looks like more sharp and little more detail than FM17.
- Medical History when you are looking for potential transfer.
- Medical & HQ Facilities
- Background Staff: Finance and Marketing Director

Hope to see some of thoose in FM20