Football Manager 2016 - 16.2.0 Official feedback thread

[Fancy Gaffot]

When you offer a player, he's placed on the transfer list, due to this the other teams will try to get him cheap, you've just admitted he's no good for you and you want rid, why should these teams pay the full transfer?

I bet you never offer the full transfer when you bid for a player, why should AI teams.

Where did I admit he's no good first of all? Secondly this happens with everyone (nevermind the fact that most of these issues are UI related and player quality is irrelevant), be it a useless 5k player or a 50m superstar.

As for the bidding, I wonder if you noticed but you can never (at least in my experience) buy a transfer listed player for even a $1 cheaper than his club's asking price.

[Welshace]

Where did I admit he's no good first of all? Secondly this happens with everyone (nevermind the fact that most of these issues are UI related and player quality is irrelevant), be it a useless 5k player or a 50m superstar.

As for the bidding, I wonder if you noticed but you can never (at least in my experience) buy a transfer listed player for even a $1 cheaper than his club's asking price.

You admitted you don't value him as a player in your team by transfer listed him, you don't want him anymore, therefore he isn't good enough for you and his value instantly drops.

It isn't even slightly a defect in the game.., it's a defect in the way people are negotiating.

The second you transfer list any player, you are telling the world you don't want him and give licence for teams to bid as low as possible and negotiate from a strong position.

Your second point is blatantly false.. you can start a game right now... go straight to the transfer list and find a player for 500k and get him for 400k no issue at all... in fact, try it, i'll wait... go to the transfer list in whatever game you have on right now, and bid 10% lower than their transfer listed price.

[stevemc]

Anyone noticing alot of goals coming from crosses?

Plus I've not seen many goals from direct free kicks either.

[Adzke]

You admitted you don't value him as a player in your team by transfer listed him, you don't want him anymore, therefore he isn't good enough for you and his value instantly drops.

It isn't even slightly a defect in the game.., it's a defect in the way people are negotiating.

The second you transfer list any player, you are telling the world you don't want him and give licence for teams to bid as low as possible and negotiate from a strong position.

Your second point is blatantly false.. you can start a game right now... go straight to the transfer list and find a player for 500k and get him for 400k no issue at all... in fact, try it, i'll wait... go to the transfer list in whatever game you have on right now, and bid 10% lower than their transfer listed price.

Couldn't it be seen as a way of letting his agent take a look at the market for a player? I consider is this way. Like clubs do to a lot of players that they still hold in high regard for various reasons.

[EuskalHerria]

Where did I admit he's no good first of all? Secondly this happens with everyone (nevermind the fact that most of these issues are UI related and player quality is irrelevant), be it a useless 5k player or a 50m superstar.

As for the bidding, I wonder if you noticed but you can never (at least in my experience) buy a transfer listed player for even a $1 cheaper than his club's asking price.

One of the most absurd things I have heard on here. You can absolutely purchase a player for a fraction of their asking price. I do it ALL the time.

[Dagenham_Dave]

The board love to troll you sometimes, eh? They've just requested I attend a meeting to discuss widening our scouting network after winning promotion to League 2.

Naturally, I told them this would be a great idea, to which they replied that they are not currently considering this, and that they hope future meetings go better than this one.

WTF?

[Fancy Gaffot]

You admitted you don't value him as a player in your team by transfer listed him, you don't want him anymore, therefore he isn't good enough for you and his value instantly drops.

It isn't even slightly a defect in the game.., it's a defect in the way people are negotiating.

Ok our opinions differ on this. However the main point of my post is that the UI is atrocious and annoying AI only aggravates the issue.

Your second point is blatantly false.. you can start a game right now... go straight to the transfer list and find a player for 500k and get him for 400k no issue at all... in fact, try it, i'll wait... go to the transfer list in whatever game you have on right now, and bid 10% lower than their transfer listed price.

I extremely rarely go for transfer listed players but when I do (transfer listed youngsters from my shortlist) - I can never get even a 5% price drop. Do you want my save game and try for yourself?

[Fancy Gaffot]

For Welshace and EuskalHerria:

Went for a random transfer listed player on my shortlist

http://i.imgur.com/p3r3phn.jpg

1 - his transfer price, 35.5

2 - I offered 35, should be easy peasy according to transfer gurus, they respond with 38.5 + 20%

3 - I remove those clauses, they respond with non-negotiable 38.5m

Second player is even better

http://i.imgur.com/W4e8yRL.jpg

[macca72]

I'd like to see this get some more attention..

Fan & board opinion is an area that needs some work, this isn't the only one I've come across.

Ta

EDIT: I should mention that he's classed as a "Wonderkid" and "Could be the next Paul Gascoigne"

[Cougar2010]

For Welshace and EuskalHerria:

Went for a random transfer listed player on my shortlist

http://i.imgur.com/p3r3phn.jpg

1 - his transfer price, 35.5

2 - I offered 35, should be easy peasy according to transfer gurus, they respond with 38.5 + 20%

3 - I remove those clauses, they respond with non-negotiable 38.5m

Second player is even better

http://i.imgur.com/W4e8yRL.jpg

That just proves that you have zero negotiating skill tbh

Why the hell would you offer £35m for a transfer listed player with an asking price of £35.5m. I would be offering £10m max and then working from there.

[Cougar2010]

I'd like to see this get some more attention..

Fan & board opinion is an area that needs some work, this isn't the only one I've come across.

Ta

EDIT: I should mention that he's classed as a "Wonderkid" and "Could be the next Paul Gascoigne"

The "Could be the next" part means nothing.

The fans don't see the "Wonderkid" part and generally don't look to the future, they are only concerned with how that player has performed on the pitch over the last weeks/months/season.

EDIT

In those kind of situations I would like to see the fans more aware of the future. I recently sold a wonderkid in my save at 19yo for £13m + add ons & profit from future sale and the fans were happy with it despite him averaging about 6.90 over 20 odd games that season. Despite it being good money as a fan I would have have expected the confidence to be more towards 50% then the 80% that it was.

[Fancy Gaffot]

That just proves that you have zero negotiating skill tbh

Why the hell would you offer £35m for a transfer listed player with an asking price of £35.5m. I would be offering £10m max and then working from there.

Do you play FM? You would know that it pisses AI off and they won't 'live' negotiate with you and will respond in a week with a 40m demand.

[macca72]

The "Could be the next" part means nothing.

The fans don't see the "Wonderkid" part and generally don't look to the future, they are only concerned with how that player has performed on the pitch over the last weeks/months/season.

EDIT

In those kind of situations I would like to see the fans more aware of the future. I recently sold a wonderkid in my save at 19yo for £13m + add ons & profit from future sale and the fans were happy with it despite him averaging about 6.90 over 20 odd games that season. Despite it being good money as a fan I would have have expected the confidence to be more towards 50% then the 80% that it was.

He was in superb form last season and is better this season, he's also a product of the academy and has within the last month been awarded his first full England cap.

There's no way any fan would be questioning him getting a new contract.

EDIT: This is also top of his coach report

[jujigatame]

I have a real love/hate relationship with this iteration of the ME. In many ways it looks and plays great. It produces some great looking play. But I can't shake the feeling that there are imbalances. Defenders seem really poor at times. Not in terms of the positioning issues which have been addressed but in terms of simple situations where their reactions are poor. I see a lot of chances created by through balls, balls over the top, crosses, and simple dribbling moves where the defender seems very slow to react to what's happening. Like he sees the pass but takes a solid couple of seconds to actually start running to defend it. Games are still low scoring, but that seems to be because of a combination of poor finishing and brilliant goalkeeping. I'm curious as to how realistic the shots/goals conversion rate is. Because I'll have plenty of games where I'll have 18-20 shots, half on target, and 0 goals.

This could be another reason people are finding crosses overpowered. Slow initial reactions from defenders leave them out of position to make interceptions. And unlike a through ball or long ball, a cross to a poorly marked attacker is basically a shot on an open goal, so the finishing rate will be high.

Oh, and another bugbear that has persisted is the poor decision attackers make to take a tight-angle shot instead of squaring the ball.

[Cougar2010]

Do you play FM? You would know that it pisses AI off and they won't 'live' negotiate with you and will respond in a week with a 40m demand.

Yeah I've only played it for what 20 years or so

Upload your save & I'll show you, can't say fairer than that.

[Cougar2010]

He was in superb form last season and is better this season, he's also a product of the academy and has within the last month been awarded his first full England cap.

There's no way any fan would be questioning him getting a new contract.

EDIT: This is also top of his coach report

Can only presume its to do with the size of the contract then. Is he getting paid significantly more than any other main player?

Maybe worth adding it to the bugs forum as well for SI to review.

[roykela]

You admitted you don't value him as a player in your team by transfer listed him, you don't want him anymore, therefore he isn't good enough for you and his value instantly drops.

It isn't even slightly a defect in the game.., it's a defect in the way people are negotiating.

The second you transfer list any player, you are telling the world you don't want him and give licence for teams to bid as low as possible and negotiate from a strong position.

Your second point is blatantly false.. you can start a game right now... go straight to the transfer list and find a player for 500k and get him for 400k no issue at all... in fact, try it, i'll wait... go to the transfer list in whatever game you have on right now, and bid 10% lower than their transfer listed price.

That just proves that you have zero negotiating skill tbh

Why the hell would you offer £35m for a transfer listed player with an asking price of £35.5m. I would be offering £10m max and then working from there.

Now, i know these are two different examples. Let that be said

And i'm both of them as an example of a common thing here.

What i don't get, which occurs over and over again, is the blatant "the player with the issue is always wrong" response.

Doesn't anyone see the contradiction here?

When a user tries to sell a player it's ok that the AI teams are bidding just a fraction of the asking price.

Regardless of what it is. Not all the time, i'm not saying that.

But when a user as good as matches the asking price and gets rejected that's also the player's fault?!

If it would've been the other way around the player would've been told how wrong he/she would be to reject such

a high bid, which as good as matches the asking price.

A little summary could be; if he shouldn't bid the asking price, why the hell does the AI reject such a high bid?

That should be way more then, than what they could "realistically" expect.

And a player being offered out doesn't mean he isn't good enough. There can be other reasons.

Just sold, in my game, one of my best Central Defenders. Was he good enough? Absolutely.

Did he want to leave? No.

Why did he leave? Had to cut down wages and he was, sadly enough, the sacrificial lamb.

[Welshace]

No, there isn't a blatant 'user is always wrong' response.

It's just short sighted users not seeing transfer negotiations as a long term game.

If you want a player that isn't on a transfer list, you will have to pay.

If you want a player on the transfer list, you'll probably have to pay the transfer value, unless you negotiate, and i mean over days/week/month.

If you want a player in within the first round of negotiations you will have to pay.

If you are selling a player.. he's surplus to requirements whatever the reason you are selling, therefore a team will instantly try and get him for a cut price deal.

If a team comes in for your key player, they aren't going to open with his value. They will start low as possible and it's your job to negotiate up or refuse the deal.. simple.

No contradiction, just basic logic.

[jc1]

Now, i know these are two different examples. Let that be said

And i'm both of them as an example of a common thing here.

What i don't get, which occurs over and over again, is the blatant "the player with the issue is always wrong" response.

Doesn't anyone see the contradiction here?

When a user tries to sell a player it's ok that the AI teams are bidding just a fraction of the asking price.

Regardless of what it is. Not all the time, i'm not saying that.

But when a user as good as matches the asking price and gets rejected that's also the player's fault?!

If it would've been the other way around the player would've been told how wrong he/she would be to reject such

a high bid, which as good as matches the asking price.

A little summary could be; if he shouldn't bid the asking price, why the hell does the AI reject such a high bid?

That should be way more then, than what they could "realistically" expect.

And a player being offered out doesn't mean he isn't good enough. There can be other reasons.

Just sold, in my game, one of my best Central Defenders. Was he good enough? Absolutely.

Did he want to leave? No.

Why did he leave? Had to cut down wages and he was, sadly enough, the sacrificial lamb.

Is the asking price that of a transfer listed player or just any old player, if he's not transfer listed, he'll go for a lot more than his value.

As soon as you transfer list a player, no matter what reason he's seen as surplus to your needs, so he'll go cheap as far as the AI teams are concerned.

[Cougar2010]

What i don't get, which occurs over and over again, is the blatant "the player with the issue is always wrong" response.

Doesn't anyone see the contradiction here?

There isn't a contradiction there at all.

When a user tries to sell a player it's ok that the AI teams are bidding just a fraction of the asking price.

Regardless of what it is. Not all the time, i'm not saying that.

When any team try to sell a player its ok for other teams to start negotiations at a much lower level.

Human or AI manager selling the player is irrelevant to the point.

But its some of the human users that misunderstand that.

But when a user as good as matches the asking price and gets rejected that's also the player's fault?!

If it would've been the other way around the player would've been told how wrong he/she would be to reject such

a high bid, which as good as matches the asking price.

A little summary could be; if he shouldn't bid the asking price, why the hell does the AI reject such a high bid?

That should be way more then, than what they could "realistically" expect.

First offers should always be negotiated as happens IRL.

Buyers always make a low first offer because they expect to be negotiated upwards & sellers always reject a first offer because they know the buyer expects to be negotiated upwards.

Again the human/AI argument doesn't come into it.

The only time I would consider making a high first offer is if other deals had already been accepted therefore AI vs AI negotiations had already taken place and a price had been agreed.

[roykela]

No.. the part that is the players fault is thinking that they have a right to conclude a transfer after one round of negotiating or to put it in another way... why are people complaining that the AI are trying to get the best price for players?

There is no ' player is always wrong' response... it's a case of the player not realising that they have unrealistic expectations.. users on here tend to see a player they want to buy, see their value and bid that value because they can't negotiate a satisfactory low price deal within that day/week/month even... player negotiation should be seen as a long term thing as irl... if you want a quick deal done, you have to pay, even more so for non transfer listed players.

When you offer out a player, you are saying you don't want him.. it's that simple.. whatever reason you are selling, be it money issues, too many brilliant players in that position.. it doesn't matter, you don't want that particular player and NO-ONE is likely to pay full price when you want rid of him.

So, when the AI is receiving a very, very good price and rejects it; why does the player get questioned?

And why then is it ok for the AI to reject a very good offer but not ok when a player rejects a very good offer?

If no-one is likely to pay full price when you want to get rid of him, why does the AI reject plenty of good offers, even bids matching the asking price, when they do the same?

[roykela]

There isn't a contradiction there at all.

When any team try to sell a player its ok for other teams to start negotiations at a much lower level.

Human or AI manager selling the player is irrelevant to the point.

But its some of the human users that misunderstand that.

First offers should always be negotiated as happens IRL.

Buyers always make a low first offer because they expect to be negotiated upwards & sellers always reject a first offer because they know the buyer expects to be negotiated upwards.

Again the human/AI argument doesn't come into it.

The only time I would consider making a high first offer is if other deals had already been accepted therefore AI vs AI negotiations had already taken place and a price had been agreed.

This is the key.

It's irrelevant until it's presented here on the forums.

Then it becomes very relevant.

What i don't get is that when the AI is doing something then the player needs to understand and respond appropiately.

That's fine.

When it's the other way around it's still the player that is being told to be sensible.

That's the contradiction. It's a one-way street and it goes against whoever presents these problems.

[Welshace]

So, when the AI is receiving a very, very good price and rejects it; why does the player get questioned?

And why then is it ok for the AI to reject a very good offer but not ok when a player rejects a very good offer?

If no-one is likely to pay full price when you want to get rid of him, why does the AI reject plenty of good offers, even bids matching the asking price, when they do the same?

What would you count as a very good offer? if you are competing against other clubs for the player there are any number of reasons the offer is refused, including those that seems higher than other teams offers, which get accepted..

Most of the time we don't see what the other team offers in terms of add ons and future fees, so how do you know the offer isn't as good? Next time it happens to you, add a new manager to the other team and check the deal out... might show you the full offer.

Who says it's not ok for a player to reject a good offer? I highly recommend it.. too many people are selling just because they receive good offers.

[Welshace]

This is the key.

It's irrelevant until it's presented here on the forums.

Then it becomes very relevant.

What i don't get is that when the AI is doing something then the player needs to understand and respond appropiately.

That's fine.

When it's the other way around it's still the player that is being told to be sensible.

That's the contradiction. It's a one-way street and it goes against whoever presents these problems.

No-one has claimed that the player should do anything other than what the AI is already doing... the AI is negotiating in a logical normal way.. bid low, meet in the middle somewhere...

It's the user that expects to sell their players at full price instantly or buy players for cheap.

[Adzke]

No-one has claimed that the player should do anything other than what the AI is already doing... the AI is negotiating in a logical normal way.. bid low, meet in the middle somewhere...

It's the user that expects to sell their players at full price instantly or buy players for cheap.

But wouldn't meeting a price £500k below the asking price constitute negotiating? Poor negotiating, but negotiating nonetheless.

[Cougar2010]

But wouldn't meeting a price £500k below the asking price constitute negotiating? Poor negotiating, but negotiating nonetheless.

The user made an offer slightly below the asking price and the AI club negotiated it upwards as you would expect a selling club to do.

The user then backed out of the negotiation.

His issue is/was starting so high that he put himself in an impossible negotiating position and was never going to be able to negotiate the selling team down to an acceptable level despite the asking price.

[Adzke]

The user made an offer slightly below the asking price and the AI club negotiated it upwards as you would expect a selling club to do.

The user then backed out of the negotiation.

His issue is/was starting so high that he put himself in an impossible negotiating position and was never going to be able to negotiate the selling team down to an acceptable level despite the asking price.

Ahh, sorry, mate. I thought he had made an offer £500k below the asking price and was immediatly shut out from the negotiation as the offer was deemed too low. I can't read. Apologies all around

[roykela]

What would you count as a very good offer? if you are competing against other clubs for the player there are any number of reasons the offer is refused, including those that seems higher than other teams offers, which get accepted..

Most of the time we don't see what the other team offers in terms of add ons and future fees, so how do you know the offer isn't as good? Next time it happens to you, add a new manager to the other team and check the deal out... might show you the full offer.

Who says it's not ok for a player to reject a good offer? I highly recommend it.. too many people are selling just because they receive good offers.

What was being presented above, considering the replies the poster got, should be a heavenly deal for any club.

So, had the AI been a player, that offer would most likely have been accepted very quickly.

Of course there can be several different reasons as to why.

My tiny little headache about this is:

- AI bids low - Of course. Trying to get the best deal.

- Player bids high on transfer listed player and gets rejected - Of course they rejected it. They weren't happy with the deal.

And those 2 scenarios are happily accepted as everything being fine.

The responses don't make any sense, especially if you twist it around and change the AI's and the human player's roles.

I hope you're able to follow my point here. Being a bit distracted by the footie that's on

[Cougar2010]

This is the key.

It's irrelevant until it's presented here on the forums.

Then it becomes very relevant.

What i don't get is that when the AI is doing something then the player needs to understand and respond appropiately.

That's fine.

When it's the other way around it's still the player that is being told to be sensible.

That's the contradiction. It's a one-way street and it goes against whoever presents these problems.

Its not a one way street and no-one has ever said that.

Lets look at the two situations:

Situation A - User selling a player

You should expect to be negotiated down from the players value/asking price and you should expect even lower starting offers that you try to negotiate upwards (Especially if the player is transfer listed).

Situation B - User buying a player

You should expect to be negotiated upwards from your starting offer (irrelevant of the player's value/asking price) and you should therefore make an appropriate starting offer with that in mind.

In both situations the aim if for both the buying & selling club to reach an agreement that is acceptable to both clubs.

It has nothing to do with human vs AI and everything to do with buying vs selling.

[Citizen Sandman]

why do all custom skins crash? I wouldn't mind so much but the player pictures are so small on the main one

[roykela]

That just proves that you have zero negotiating skill tbh

Why the hell would you offer £35m for a transfer listed player with an asking price of £35.5m. I would be offering £10m max and then working from there.

No-one has claimed that the player should do anything other than what the AI is already doing... the AI is negotiating in a logical normal way.. bid low, meet in the middle somewhere...

It's the user that expects to sell their players at full price instantly or buy players for cheap.

For Welshace and EuskalHerria:

Went for a random transfer listed player on my shortlist

http://i.imgur.com/p3r3phn.jpg

1 - his transfer price, 35.5

2 - I offered 35, should be easy peasy according to transfer gurus, they respond with 38.5 + 20%

3 - I remove those clauses, they respond with non-negotiable 38.5m

Second player is even better

http://i.imgur.com/W4e8yRL.jpg

What is this then?

The case in question here is when the AI expects the full asking price; and even more than the set asking price when negotiating.

AI negotiating upwards.

And the player is being blamed for bidding to high?!

[roykela]

Its not a one way street and no-one has ever said that.

Lets look at the two situations:

Situation A - User selling a player

You should expect to be negotiated down from the players value/asking price and you should expect even lower starting offers that you try to negotiate upwards (Especially if the player is transfer listed).

Situation B - User buying a player

You should expect to be negotiated upwards from your starting offer (irrelevant of the player's value/asking price) and you should therefore make an appropriate starting offer with that in mind.

In both situations the aim if for both the buying & selling club to reach an agreement that is acceptable to both clubs.

It has nothing to do with human vs AI and everything to do with buying vs selling.

Then we have the AI which negotiates upwards.

Like in the example you responded to earlier.

[Welshace]

What is this then?

The case in question here is when the AI expects the full asking price; and even more than the set asking price when negotiating.

AI negotiating upwards.

And the player is being blamed for bidding to high?!

The first player is slightly awkward as it's transfer listed by request... the club will still try and negotiate aggressively..

The second want full price and why not?

If it was the other way round, no-one is saying you should accept the low offers the AI give you.. only that it's logical for the AI to bid low.. same as it should be for you.. if they accept or not is beside the point, same as it should be for you.

[Fancy Gaffot]

The user made an offer slightly below the asking price and the AI club negotiated it upwards as you would expect a selling club to do.

The user then backed out of the negotiation.

His issue is/was starting so high that he put himself in an impossible negotiating position and was never going to be able to negotiate the selling team down to an acceptable level despite the asking price.

This is ridiculous. When you see a lot on ebay with buy it now price of 10 quid and you offer 9.5, if the seller in return demands 15 quid you'll call him an idiot and forget about his item. Also I didnt back out of any negotiations, you can take a look at my screens again.

I don't know how to explain some of the posts here. I posted an issue about terrible UI and it got blown out of proportions claiming I don't understand how AI works (yes guys, offering me 500k for a 5m player 20 times in a row is a great AI negotiating logic! AI which would accept 25m gets mad at 24.5m offer and refuses to negotiate is realistic! Pinnacle of AI scripting right here!).

[Cougar2010]

What is this then?

The case in question here is when the AI expects the full asking price; and even more than the set asking price when negotiating.

AI negotiating upwards.

And the player is being blamed for bidding to high?!

Then we have the AI which negotiates upwards.

Like in the example you responded to earlier.

You usually come across as a fairly intelligent user roykela so I'm really not sure how you aren't getting this

First Example

Player is valued at £17.25m and the asking price is £35.5m.

FG makes an opening offer of £35m cash up front which is far too high for an opening offer and creates a rod for his own back.

As you would expect the selling club negotiate an opening offer upwards, in this case by including an add on and a sell on clause. Its worth noting at this stage that player value & asking price are meaningless, they are simply indicators prior to clubs entering into discussions.

If the situations were reversed the human user should be doing exactly the same except that situation would never happen as the AI club wouldn't make the mistake of making a high opening offer.

There is absolutely no problem with this and the issue is 100% with the user for making a high opening offer.

Example 2

Player is valued at £5.25m with an asking price of £24m.

FG offers £23.5m cash up front, once again far too high for an opening offer and we don't see the negotiation by the AI club.

In this case I think it would help to report it in the bugs forum for SI to review as the AI club should at least be negotiating live here.

[roykela]

The first player is slightly awkward as it's transfer listed by request... the club will still try and negotiate aggressively..

The second want full price and why not?

If it was the other way round, no-one is saying you should accept the low offers the AI give you.. only that it's logical for the AI to bid low.. same as it should be for you.. if they accept or not is beside the point, same as it should be for you.

Why not?

Because it's perfectly fine, according to this forum, when the AI is doing it.

Had it been the other way around the player would've made very aware of it being extremely dumb to negotiate and/or reject such an extremely good offer.

It is logical for the AI to bid low. As it is logical for a human to bid low. That's not the issue.

The issue is when a bid that high is acceptably rejected when a human would've been a fool to reject it.

And on top of that being told this: 'That just proves that you have zero negotiating skill tbh '.

I know that particular line, in this case, is not meant to be taken too seriously.

It might not be good negotiation skills but it shows me that the AI is terrible at negotiating.

How many times haven't we read here about people being told that they shouldn't negotiate above their asking price?

That's what i'm trying to point out.

When the AI negotiates above asking price nobody says anything. Apart from 'why not?'.

When the player does that he/she is being told not to do it, as it's quite stupid.

It happens time and time again.

If it's ok for one part to do it then it's ok for both parts; and vice versa.

Consistency in argumental points would've been nice.

I don't mean you, Cougar or Gaffot in particular. Just in general.

They just provided decent examples of a contradictory state of accepted points of arguments (not sure that line made any sense at all )

[Cougar2010]

Lets try again as my reply was deleted.

This is ridiculous. When you see a lot on ebay with buy it now price of 10 quid and you offer 9.5, if the seller in return demands 15 quid you'll call him an idiot and forget about his item. Also I didnt back out of any negotiations, you can take a look at my screens again.

Ridiculous is comparing Ebay to a negotiation situation.

Ebay is an auction site where negotiation doesn't happen, it has nothing in common with the issue here.

I don't know how to explain some of the posts here. I posted an issue about terrible UI and it got blown out of proportions claiming I don't understand how AI works (yes guys, offering me 500k for a 5m player 20 times in a row is a great AI negotiating logic! AI which would accept 25m gets mad at 24.5m offer and refuses to negotiate is realistic! Pinnacle of AI scripting right here!).

I made you an offer earlier that if you uploaded your save I would show you how negotiation works but so far you haven't took me up on it.

[roykela]

You usually come across as a fairly intelligent user roykela so I'm really not sure how you aren't getting this

First Example

Player is valued at £17.25m and the asking price is £35.5m.

FG makes an opening offer of £35m cash up front which is far too high for an opening offer and creates a rod for his own back.

As you would expect the selling club negotiate an opening offer upwards, in this case by including an add on and a sell on clause. Its worth noting at this stage that player value & asking price are meaningless, they are simply indicators prior to clubs entering into discussions.

If the situations were reversed the human user should be doing exactly the same except that situation would never happen as the AI club wouldn't make the mistake of making a high opening offer.

There is absolutely no problem with this and the issue is 100% with the user for making a high opening offer.

Example 2

Player is valued at £5.25m with an asking price of £24m.

FG offers £23.5m cash up front, once again far too high for an opening offer and we don't see the negotiation by the AI club.

In this case I think it would help to report it in the bugs forum for SI to review as the AI club should at least be negotiating live here.

I'm very intelligent ......normally. I'm on week 2 of my holiday now so the IQ might be down a few percent

Just wrote a reply to Welshace. Hopefully that can clear things up a bit.

As i'm not debating the actual deals.

I have to apologise if i made it look like that. That was not what i meant to do.

[Cougar2010]

It is logical for the AI to bid low. As it is logical for a human to bid low. That's not the issue.

The issue is when a bid that high is acceptably rejected when a human would've been a fool to reject it.

And on top of that being told this: 'That just proves that you have zero negotiating skill tbh '.

I know that particular line, in this case, is not meant to be taken too seriously.

The bolded part 100% did not happen.

The AI club negotiated the offer, they didn't reject it.

In the reverse situation the human user probably shouldn't be rejecting either (Purely from a financial stand point as the AI club might walk away) but they should always negotiate upwards at least once if the offer allows it.

It might not be good negotiation skills but it shows me that the AI is terrible at negotiating.

How many times haven't we read here about people being told that they shouldn't negotiate above their asking price?

Whose saying this? in what context?

Are you buying or selling? what are the offers?

[roykela]

Lets try again as my reply was deleted.

Ridiculous is comparing Ebay to a negotiation situation.

Ebay is an auction site where negotiation doesn't happen, it has nothing in common with the issue here.

I made you an offer earlier that if you uploaded your save I would show you how negotiation works but so far you haven't took me up on it.

I think you might be misunderstanding a tiny bit, although i do get your point myself.

It's not really the negotiations his issue is, it's more about the UI layout in certain areas, as i understand it.

Easier and quicker ways to deal with multiple offers and stuff like that. Or?

[Cougar2010]

I think you might be misunderstanding a tiny bit, although i do get your point myself.

It's not really the negotiations his issue is, it's more about the UI layout in certain areas, as i understand it.

Easier and quicker ways to deal with multiple offers and stuff like that. Or?

Yeah he started in post #654 with UI issues but moved on to ridiculous claims about not being able to buy players below asking prices while AI clubs never offer you more which has kinda blown up into negotiation discussions.

TBF reading back when he made the opening offers in the examples he was trying to prove his point of AI clubs not accepting bids below asking prices but because of negotiation went about it in the wrong way. If he had started lower he would have been able to buy them cheaper later in the negotiation.

[roykela]

Yeah he started in post #654 with UI issues but moved on to ridiculous claims about not being able to buy players below asking prices while AI clubs never offer you more which has kinda blown up into negotiation discussions.

TBF reading back when he made the opening offers in the examples he was trying to prove his point of AI clubs not accepting bids below asking prices but because of negotiation went about it in the wrong way. If he had started lower he would have been able to buy them cheaper later in the negotiation.

He most likely would get them cheaper, had he started lower.

With the negotiations themselves though it baffles me a bit how it can be rejected and negotiated upwards,

as it is, from the seller's point of view, a brilliant offer when it comes to that amount of money.

Anywho. I'm signing off from that short debate about it. Off to wreck some havoc in Rocket League.

Need to let off some steam after yet another loss in FM

[yezzko]

Why do players keep ignoring corner instructions? the problem persist since fm 14!

[CityAndColour]

Seems pretty straight forward. The AI would expect the user to come in lower than they are prepared to pay, so when he comes in at around the asking price, the AI thinks "sweet, I can get more here".

Did you try setting it as a non-negotiable offer for the asking price?

[Marathon Dress Week]

When will we see an end to defenders moving away from the ball? A goal mouth scramble from a corner should see all players making a desperate effort to clear the ball by any means possible, not backing off and generally wandering away.

I don't care what mentality or tactic settings are being employed, IRL players from any team you care to mention will look to put their foot through the ball.

[jc1]

This is ridiculous. When you see a lot on ebay with buy it now price of 10 quid and you offer 9.5, if the seller in return demands 15 quid you'll call him an idiot and forget about his item. Also I didnt back out of any negotiations, you can take a look at my screens again.

I don't know how to explain some of the posts here. I posted an issue about terrible UI and it got blown out of proportions claiming I don't understand how AI works (yes guys, offering me 500k for a 5m player 20 times in a row is a great AI negotiating logic! AI which would accept 25m gets mad at 24.5m offer and refuses to negotiate is realistic! Pinnacle of AI scripting right here!).

Here's a simple example...have you ever been to a Bazaar in Turkey and have you ever tried to barter with the vendor's there, you see a pair of Levi jeans and you ask the price, the stall holder will say £30...you look at him and say " nah! too much, I'll give you £12" he than says " OK make it £25 then " you say, " nope I'll give you £17 " You then end up meeting in the middle at £20.

Negotiating for players isn't any different unless you're trying to buy a player not transfer listed, then you'll pay a lot more.

[Adzke]

Here's a simple example...have you ever been to a Bazaar in Turkey and have you ever tried to barter with the vendor's there, you see a pair of Levi jeans and you ask the price, the stall holder will say £30...you look at him and say " nah! too much, I'll give you £12" he than says " OK make it £25 then " you say, " nope I'll give you £17 " You then end up meeting in the middle at £20.

Negotiating for players isn't any different unless you're trying to buy a player not transfer listed, then you'll pay a lot more.

But I bet the Turkish merchant would sell you the jeans at £29 if you gave him that offer, even if he expected you to parlay his price down to £20.

EDIT: Unless we're all a part of the Life of Brian, that is

[FrazT]

If you want to discuss transfers and negotiations further, I suggest that you open a separate thread and leave this one for feedback.

[terabyte02]

This is ridiculous. Super ridiculous.

My review in 16.2 patch:

1. I've tried more than six different formation. All of them producing yellow card.

No one in single match that my team never did not get a card. I think this is BUG.

2. In this patch, all goalkeeper become a superman. They hard to beat. Even when it one-on-one situation.

Unbelieveble. Maybe this is BUG too..

[Fancy Gaffot]

I made you an offer earlier that if you uploaded your save I would show you how negotiation works but so far you haven't took me up on it.

Go wild - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/337560/lfc.rar

If you want to discuss transfers and negotiations further, I suggest that you open a separate thread and leave this one for feedback.

I made a separate thread originally but it was removed and my post was put here, so don't blame us

But I bet the Turkish merchant would sell you the jeans at £29 if you gave him that offer, even if he expected you to parlay his price down to £20.

EDIT: Unless we're all a part of the Life of Brian, that is

Exactly. He wouldn't say, no, as you are rich the price is now £40. Yet somehow people believe that when AI do that it's perfectly logical.

And finally here's a video of me negotiating with your foolproof method of going low first etc

[video=youtube;LV2PbJsaGXw]

Same result so please stop talking nonsense about how it's possible to get transfer listed players even 1% cheaper than their selling price. It is not possible in my experience. Be it transfer listed by request or club wants to get rid, be it asking price lower than his value or vice versa etc.

Still the main point of my original post was that transfer centre UI needs a few additions.