An Idea to Increase the Clarity of the 3D ME

[YKW]

TL;DR: Have a Match View Overlay that leaves little graphical indicators on the pitch as the action unfolds.

The problem:

The number of calculations performed by the ME is so vast that it massively outnumbers the number of ways of representing those calculations. A player losing his footting, or being booed by the crowd may look identical to a player with poor first touch, for example, and this can make it hard to understand exactly what the 3D ME is showing you. I believe this lack of clarity, combined with an overall more difficult game, has caused a lot of frustrations. I would follow on from this to say that I don’t believe good enough graphics to accurately portray all of the calculations exist anywhere, and won’t for a while. Therefore I believe the solution to this problem is not graphical in the sense of the 3D match.

Why did my player do that?

You’re playing FM. Your opposition play a long clearance over your backline and your CB, just a few meters from the ball, begins to chase it down. An opposition striker who is miles away looks to be chasing a lost cause. But your CB runs slowly for some reason, allowing the opposition striker to make up 25 meters on him to beat him to the ball and then score.

There’s time left. The opposition LB has foolishly made a forward run, leaving your RW in acres of space on the counter. He receives the ball ahead of him and sprints onto it with masses of time and space. In the box are 3 attackers and just 1 defender, if he crosses now it should be a certain goal. But no, he has decided to wait for the LB to track back before kicking it into his legs. Chance wasted. Full time.

The ME knows why, but it’s not telling.

In the first scenario, perhaps the CB was complacent. Perhaps he was unaware there was even a striker chasing him. Perhaps he is too tired/injured to run. Perhaps the determination of the striker and his own lack of composure caused him to panic. Perhaps he is not a ‘natural’ CB. Perhaps the poor communication of the GK put him off. Perhaps the wet turf deceived him until it was too late.

In the second scenario, perhaps the winger’s poor decisions meant he missed the opportunity. Perhaps he wasn’t concentrating. Maybe the sun was in his eyes. Maybe he was thinking about beating the man and then trying to score. Maybe he dislikes both the players he could have assisted.

On the basis of these types of things being fairly easy to recognise when watching a real match, I would argue that it could really benefit the game if the ME were to start communicating things to us on this level.

The idea:

Imagine you are watching the match above I just described. As moment one unfolds small icons will “drop” from the action onto the pitch, as an insight into the actual detail behind what is going on. I can hover over any one of the icons and a pop up will give me the significant bits of information.

For instance, during the course of the scenario one goal being scored, an “insight” icon would appear on the pitch, let’s say at the moment in time when the striker just beats the defender to the ball. In this situation it may be the [player duel] icon – indicating that some mismatch of player ability contributed to the event.

Hovering over the [player duel] icon may bring up something a bit like this:

[player duel icon]

< defender name> Composure --, anticipation-

< striker name> Determination ++, Condition +++ (maybe he was a late sub)

This would indicate to me that the striker was able to beat the defender to the ball due the defender lacking composure and not anticipating the situation correctly, while the striker was massively determined and also very fresh.

Perhaps also, at the position where the ball took its first bounce, a [weather condition] icon appeared, indicating something like

[weather condition icon]

< wet turf> Ball speed +++

Indicating that the bounce of the ball may have confused the players.

A list of possible icons could be

[player duel] – used for clarifying why a particular battle was won.

[Player] – used for explaining any action in the context of an individual player

[Weather conditions] – Used for indicating how the weather or pitch condition affected the event

[Tactics] – used for showing that an event was primarily caused by some kind of tactical option

Benefits of something like this:

It will reduce frustrations as the causes of events will be more obvious.

It will help tactic building due to greater certainty over which events are NOT caused by tactics, and which events are examples of the tactic working well.

It will help player selection through an increased ability to see what the defining attributes causing a players success actually are.

It will improve a players understanding of how to prepare for a match in terms of things like weather

It could provide (through each player’s “Insight Icon History”) a much clearer perspective of the strengths and weaknesses of players.

It could make substitutions more logical, by giving a clearer reason why the current player was failing, helping me choose a more suitable replacement.

I think that something like this (but not necessarily this exact thing) is greatly needed at this point, and would benefit the game immensely.

The sorts of things this idea would clarify would be things like:

-When was it a perfect cross (decisions+, technique+, vision+) as opposed to a weakness with my GK (Command of Area -, Eccentricity --) or defenders (marking-, concentration-, jumping-)

-When was it good defensive play (marking +, tackling+, anticipation+) as opposed to poor attacking play (dribbling-, flair-, composure-, teamwork-)

-Are my players missing their passes primarily because of my tactical set up (passing options-, tempo-, no space--) or because of weather (pitch condition-, wetness -)

-Was that shot saved because the goalkeeper was great (reflexes ++, anticipation ++), or because my striker lacked something (composure--, technique--, finishing-) or perhaps the pressure on him was too much (confidence--, pressure--).

I think that the ME knows these things, and with a little tweaking could perhaps relay this information to us in this way. For me personally, I have found on FM15 that when things are going badly, it can be really hard, maybe too hard, to figure out why. This is my attempt at a realistic solution, and I think it has potential.

Other random benefits could be:

Good goals could become more satisfying. For example a mazy dribble which left a whole load of < Flair+++> drops as it unfolded. Or a long shot that goes straight in the middle with a < Shot Power+++> drop. Or a finish that had a < vision+++> or a mighty header that relied on < Determination+++>

It could lead to more interesting feedback and suggestions from all other characters in the game. For instance, scout recommendations that focus on replacements for a specific player who has been weak in a specific area. Personal training and PPMs could be suggested in this way. The board could appraise your performance based on these things – for instance “The board believe that a lack of Leadership has cost the team this season, and would like to see this improve/and would be willing to back you in the transfer market to address this.” The fans could like or dislike players based on this, for example “Are furious that X’s poor workrate has been costing the team.”

Anyway I’m rambling so that’s why I put the TL;DR at the beginning.

[johnhughthom]

I agree that we should have more understanding of why certain things happen, I feel that your idea is a little bit "gamey" however, and think it would pull me away from the immersion.

I think the commentary bar needs to be utilised more often in certain situations, for instance in your first situation a line such as "CB was unaware of FW until it was too late..." or "CB's injury caused him trouble there".

[HUNT3R]

I agree that we should have more understanding of why certain things happen, I feel that your idea is a little bit "gamey" however, and think it would pull me away from the immersion.

I think the commentary bar needs to be utilised more often in certain situations, for instance in your first situation a line such as "CB was unaware of FW until it was too late..." or "CB's injury caused him trouble there".

I like the commentary bar idea more. As you said, the idea seems very arcade-like.

[asdpoo]

Yeah, I always wanted more information and find the lack of official one ridiculous. Sadly it will never happen, because through the years nothing suggests SI thinks the same. For the majority of people it is keeping the magic alive, but for me it is annoyingly obfuscated bad game design. Of course any additional game mechanics info can be made optional from the settings, but no.

[YKW]

I agree that we should have more understanding of why certain things happen, I feel that your idea is a little bit "gamey" however, and think it would pull me away from the immersion.

I think the commentary bar needs to be utilised more often in certain situations, for instance in your first situation a line such as "CB was unaware of FW until it was too late..." or "CB's injury caused him trouble there".

In what respect do you see it as gamey? For me it is ok as the information given would only be information that I could clearly see if the match was real as opposed to 3D graphics. I think trying to achieve this using text would leave us with the same problem as with the graphics - there are too many combinations of events for the available animations, or in this case commentary lines.

I think including something like this as an optional overlay (maybe set your replays to include it) would be brilliant. If it were to be relayed through the commentary bar I think a lot of the benefits that I suggested in the OP would be lost.

[forameuss]

Seems extremely arcadey to me. Like one of the lighter football games that pop up on Steam every so often with a quirk that sets them apart from FIFA.

[YKW]

Seems extremely arcadey to me. Like one of the lighter football games that pop up on Steam every so often with a quirk that sets them apart from FIFA.

What do you think of the concept of giving the user more specific information about why events unfolded on the pitch as they did. I really struggle with knowing what to change when performances aren't good. If, for instance, I could see that my full back kept getting beaten due to poor positioning as opposed to through flair (which I don't think it is possible to discern between currently) then it would help me to make logical decisions to improve things, both in the short term through giving him a more conservative role or subbing him for a more mentally astute defender, and in the long term in understanding what types of players my tactic needed, in order to make signings or choose training.

Currently I feel that if I am faced with a striker missing a lot of chances it is too hard to know how to solve it. I may be able to identify that the player has low composure, although I can't be sure that is why he is missing. I may be able to identify that the player had been "looking nervous," but again I can't be sure if that is why he missed. The goalkeeper receiving a high rating may be a clue that my striker was unlucky, but again, it is tough to tell.

Of course, maybe you don't agree that these things can be understood from watching a real match, but to me there is quite a significant difference between a player snatching at a chance through not having composure, shooting badly through nervousness or shooting well but being denied by a great save. I don't think it is easy to tell the difference between these things, which are actually crucial when deciding what to do next.

I think there is a lot of potential in something like this.

[johnhughthom]

In what respect do you see it as gamey? For me it is ok as the information given would only be information that I could clearly see if the match was real as opposed to 3D graphics. I think trying to achieve this using text would leave us with the same problem as with the graphics - there are too many combinations of events for the available animations, or in this case commentary lines.

I think including something like this as an optional overlay (maybe set your replays to include it) would be brilliant. If it were to be relayed through the commentary bar I think a lot of the benefits that I suggested in the OP would be lost.

First of all, I hope you didn't think my comments were dismissive of your idea, it was a very well written and thought out post, and as I said, presented slightly differently, I'd be all for it.

I simply feel it would be holding the hand of the player, there is enough information in the game 3d and stats to work out what is happening in the large majority of situations, in my opinion. Understanding generally comes from watching a number of similar incidents, however, seeing how they play out and changing things, seeing how it plays out in future. I'm constantly pausing the game, looking at my own, then opposition player's attributes when I don't understand a situation, and a little bit of thought and research goes a long way. For example, strength barely seemed to play a role in the game a few versions back, now a lot of situations that look odd on screen are easily explained by a mismatch of strength between two players.

This is probably not to everyone's liking, and it's probably not how a lot of players want to play the game, but I don't think saying it's something that could easily be turned on or off is a good argument to have it. It would involve a large degree of work on SI's part, and I can't see them doing that for something only some players would use.

[forameuss]

What do you think of the concept of giving the user more specific information about why events unfolded on the pitch as they did. I really struggle with knowing what to change when performances aren't good. If, for instance, I could see that my full back kept getting beaten due to poor positioning as opposed to through flair (which I don't think it is possible to discern between currently) then it would help me to make logical decisions to improve things, both in the short term through giving him a more conservative role or subbing him for a more mentally astute defender, and in the long term in understanding what types of players my tactic needed, in order to make signings or choose training.

Currently I feel that if I am faced with a striker missing a lot of chances it is too hard to know how to solve it. I may be able to identify that the player has low composure, although I can't be sure that is why he is missing. I may be able to identify that the player had been "looking nervous," but again I can't be sure if that is why he missed. The goalkeeper receiving a high rating may be a clue that my striker was unlucky, but again, it is tough to tell.

Of course, maybe you don't agree that these things can be understood from watching a real match, but to me there is quite a significant difference between a player snatching at a chance through not having composure, shooting badly through nervousness or shooting well but being denied by a great save. I don't think it is easy to tell the difference between these things, which are actually crucial when deciding what to do next.

I think there is a lot of potential in something like this.

More information is always welcome, it's just finding the best way to represent it. I don't like the idea of putting these kinds of overlays, but the core idea of just being able to understand more about what's happening is sound.

In your example, you mention not quite understanding why a striker isn't scoring, or why a full back keeps getting beaten. My counter-question would be - should you? You also mention watching a football match, so an example - I'm watching Partick Thistle (I know, it's awful). I see Paul's big brother Matthias Pogba fail to take down another long ball, watching it bounce off him and out. So I say "well, he's clearly got a dreadful first touch". The next few balls don't really challenge that assertion. Then later on, he takes one down perfectly. And another. Now what am I to take as the reason for him not doing before? Is he genuinely terrible? Low on confidence? Deliberately trying my patience?

Obviously I'm watching from a different point of view than a manager. He'll have a better insight into the players mental stability and confidence to be able to rule that in or out. But I guess my counter-point is that it's rarely black and white enough to be able to tell you exactly why a certain event is happening. Certainly not black and white enough to be able to overlay it onto FM. Doing that just seems to me like you're giving away far too much information that no-one would have, even in real life.

Taking away the overlay idea, I think you'd get a lot of benefits in making the assistant and staff actually do something more useful in game. Make the hints still fairly vague, but giving you the ingredients to come to a conclusion on your own. No more "we should go more direct", closely followed by "we should go less direct". More like "Matthias Pogba has a worse touch than I do, maybe you should just take him off boss. Or at least stop firing things at his head, no matter how ridiculous it looks"

Or something like that.

[MBarbaric]

some clarity on things that 3d can't represent is badly needed. unlikely the OP i think more apropriate way to clarify this would be your assman, phisyo-... substitute... whoever is around the bench and paying attention.

[macca72]

Completely agree with the sentiment, not sure on the execution, but some form of context explanation is a great idea. There's a multitude of different ways to display it to the user.

[YKW]

More information is always welcome, it's just finding the best way to represent it. I don't like the idea of putting these kinds of overlays, but the core idea of just being able to understand more about what's happening is sound.

In your example, you mention not quite understanding why a striker isn't scoring, or why a full back keeps getting beaten. My counter-question would be - should you? You also mention watching a football match, so an example - I'm watching Partick Thistle (I know, it's awful). I see Paul's big brother Matthias Pogba fail to take down another long ball, watching it bounce off him and out. So I say "well, he's clearly got a dreadful first touch". The next few balls don't really challenge that assertion. Then later on, he takes one down perfectly. And another. Now what am I to take as the reason for him not doing before? Is he genuinely terrible? Low on confidence? Deliberately trying my patience?

Obviously I'm watching from a different point of view than a manager. He'll have a better insight into the players mental stability and confidence to be able to rule that in or out. But I guess my counter-point is that it's rarely black and white enough to be able to tell you exactly why a certain event is happening. Certainly not black and white enough to be able to overlay it onto FM. Doing that just seems to me like you're giving away far too much information that no-one would have, even in real life.

I am specifically focusing on bits of information that I would have in real life. For me there is an important distinction between ability and performance. Ability being the First Touch stat of the player you mention, which is a certain, specific value. However performance, the bit we see on the pitch, then includes a whole number of other factors, known and unknown, such as composure, concentration, technique, condition of the playing surface, mentality and others. Now you don't always need good composure in order to perform a good first touch, nor do you ALWAYS need concentration, technique or a good playing surface. For me a first touch under pressure would require composure, a first touch as a players first of the game after 15 minutes would need concentration, a waist high first touch would require technique and a low, drilled pass would likely need a decent playing surface under it.

Suppose a player is under performing, and for the sake of argument we'll say that he has failed to control every pass made to him, and subsequently lost possession.

There are many different scenarios that could be the explanation for this and all of them have a different "optimal" response as manager.

1. The player is a winger receiving direct passes to feet and it is rainy. Through no fault of the player, he is unable to control the ball after it skips up off the turf. I think it would be clear when watching a real match that this was the source of the problem. A good decision based on this would be to adjust the tactical strategy so that shorter passes are made.

2. The same player is complacent. This time it is the fault of the player as his lazy attempts to control the ball aren't good enough. A good decision here would be to perform an individual team talk to the player to make him buck his ideas up, or take the player off for someone else.

IMO the two situations above would appear the same in the 3D ME, making it too hard to choose between what are opposite reactions to the problem.

When it comes to my striker example which you've mentioned, I don't want to know why he always misses, but rather what the main factors are behind him missing any particular chance. The difference between a player missing the target due to a lack of a confidence and missing the target due to his innate lack of composure basically appear the same. Ditto hitting it straight at the keeper because he has poor finishing and hitting it straight at the keeper because he is under too much pressure. I think these things are quite clear from real matches but almost impossible to tell in FM.

As the ME does calculate the match in as much detail as this, and more, I think it would be a great next step to have this information visible somehow.

[Dagenham_Dave]

You can tell if a player is complacent though, it's in one of the match tab things you can already have as an 'overlay'. I use this a lot to gauge the mood of my players. In addition, you have the analysis tool, which has been expanded this year so you can focus on specific time periods.

The problem with your idea is that it's basically signposting how to fix an issue, that's why it's 'gamey'. Eventually, people will be able to interpret every 'overlay' and simply pick the right option to fix it. There's got to be a level of the unknown in a game such as this, otherwise it just becomes far too easy. There's already plenty of information available during the match how the team and players are playing. It could do with a manual or a guide of some sort on how to use them, but it's there. Enough to make informed decisions, but keeping enough back so that these decisions might not always work out. And in that way it simulates the difficulty a manager has when making decisions. It might not be uber realistic, but you're never going to get that, no matter how advanced the ME is, because it's not real life.

When games begin to spoonfeed their users how to play it, that's when they lose interest to me.

[Jayddwoo]

Yes but there's a difference between being complacent and what we see on the 3d representation. A defender letting a striker make 30 yards on him is not something i've ever seen in even park football. I've seen long passes hit into my six yard box and the GK has stayed on his line and a striker has ran fourty yards to put it in (maybe a bug). Am i to take the GK must have poor rushing out skills?

I just want more transparency with what has gone wrong in the 3D match because otherwise i'm just going to continue to see the game as not for me anymore.

[Optimistic Dave]

A good idea in theory, the concept of RPG style popups would kill the immersion - actually sounds a bit Theme Park. More info added to the commentary would be better.

[Dagenham_Dave]

I just want more transparency with what has gone wrong in the 3D match because otherwise i'm just going to continue to see the game as not for me anymore.

How did you cope in previous FM's/CMs when it was 2d only or even commentary only? Or when the 3d was nowhere near as advanced as it is now?

[HUNT3R]

GK has stayed on his line and a striker has ran fourty yards to put it in (maybe a bug).

Something like this is a clear bug bug.

[Jayddwoo]

How did you cope in previous FM's/CMs when it was 2d only or even commentary only? Or when the 3d was nowhere near as advanced as it is now?

Sorry, i didn't mean to say the game isn't for me. I meant the 3D part of the game isn't for me. I watch it in commentary only these days.

[Jayddwoo]

Something like this is a clear bug bug.

I knew i should have saved the replay and posted it

[samuelawachie]

The game in its current state is already to easy for me. I watch all my matches in full, and take my time to do things well and set up stuff well. I scout opposition and watch their games. Really really diligently going about things one by one. And yet, someone wants to "show" me how the ME is making the decisions. The reason why you're having "this problem" OP, is because you probably don't watch your matches in full. If you did, you'd be able to glean that same info that you're looking to be spoon-fed to you.

That's just gonna KILL the game for hardcore players like me.

Commentary even helps sometimes by telling you "Player X really looks nervous" right after he misses a golden chance, and you can also see it in the mood widget.

I believe this is one other none-issue. Sorry mate.

PS: I do agree with DDave, that the commentary would be the way to go if they decided to spoon-feed us with more info like this. If it's done in overlays, gosh.., that's just NO.

[samuelawachie]

It will simply become a " okay, this is the problem...; I've seen it before, c'mon; options will appear explaining why its happening, you know clicking A then B works..so you do just that; then press continue, game goes on...another problem, AH!, i've seen that in my last match, Click B then C twice, fixed! , click Continue..

That's not using your common sense.

Have you ever seen Mourinho doing that?

That's not management, that's arcade gaming at it's best (or worst)

[YKW]

You can tell if a player is complacent though, it's in one of the match tab things you can already have as an 'overlay'. I use this a lot to gauge the mood of my players. In addition, you have the analysis tool, which has been expanded this year so you can focus on specific time periods.

The problem with your idea is that it's basically signposting how to fix an issue, that's why it's 'gamey'. Eventually, people will be able to interpret every 'overlay' and simply pick the right option to fix it. There's got to be a level of the unknown in a game such as this, otherwise it just becomes far too easy. There's already plenty of information available during the match how the team and players are playing. It could do with a manual or a guide of some sort on how to use them, but it's there. Enough to make informed decisions, but keeping enough back so that these decisions might not always work out. And in that way it simulates the difficulty a manager has when making decisions. It might not be uber realistic, but you're never going to get that, no matter how advanced the ME is, because it's not real life.

When games begin to spoonfeed their users how to play it, that's when they lose interest to me.

In terms of the bolded, I don't agree at all. This idea offers no solutions, only clarity (or at least more clarity) over what the issue actually is. Or maybe not an issue, but what has gone right.

You are right that there is plenty of information available, and that carefully analysing this can yield some answers about performance, but this idea isn't supposed to relay the same information that is available. For example, noting a high or low pass completion rate for a player is useful, especially in tandem with the analysis tab which shows all of that players passes. However what it doesn't tell you, and what I think is actually quite crucial information, is the more specific nature of his passing success or failure. A high pass completion rate may actually have gone hand in hand with making a bad decision every time, while a low passing completion rate may be due to a tactical set up, or perhaps the abilities of the player.

I would disagree that this idea would be spoonfeeding because the aim is to help the user make realistically informed decisions, not to help them make correct ones. Football is suitably unpredictable that there is rarely a "correct" decision anyway. There is a vast difference between e.g. a full back being outskilled vs shying away from the tackle - one which the current ME animations and statistics do not account for. The full back being skilled up and the full back not giving his all in the tackle will look almost identical in the game, but would certainly prompt different reactions from a RL manager. Unless I'm mistaken, there is no statistic or analysis feature that would show me this.

Overall I think the comments about the arcadey nature of the idea make a lot of sense, although I am still on the fence in that respect. As I see it, it would be no more intrusive than the (i) icon next to the player name that expands into his attributes. Except on the pitch in the relevant spot, and simply indicating to me that player X looked complacent at that moment, or lacked the agility to turn fast enough, or adopted a poor starting position, or all three. (I don't think the ME or stats could tell me this, they would all appear largely the same.)

I don't think these are solutions, and I think changes made on the basis of these bits of information would still fit your criteria of "keeping enough back so that the decisions don't always work out."

The game in its current state is already to easy for me. I watch all my matches in full, and take my time to do things well and set up stuff well. I scout opposition and watch their games. Really really diligently going about things one by one. And yet, someone wants to "show" me how the ME is making the decisions. The reason why you're having "this problem" OP, is because you probably don't watch your matches in full. If you did, you'd be able to glean that same info that you're looking to be spoon-fed to you.

That's just gonna KILL the game for hardcore players like me.

Commentary even helps sometimes by telling you "Player X really looks nervous" right after he misses a golden chance, and you can also see it in the mood widget.

I believe this is one other none-issue. Sorry mate.

PS: I do agree with DDave, that the commentary would be the way to go if they decided to spoon-feed us with more info like this. If it's done in overlays, gosh.., that's just NO.

I really disagree that I can get the information I am asking for from watching full matches and using the analysis tools. I feel confident in this because I have tried quite a lot. There is no notable difference between a striker shooting badly because he lacks confidence, or lacks composure, or lacks balance, or lacks finishing, or because the chance wasn't as good as it appeared. I can't tell this by watching full matches, or by looking at the analysis tabs and stats.

You are right that being meticulous pays off, and I'm in the bittersweet position of being able to set up appropriately against a lot of the formations, but almost never against very narrow play. I'm working on it, and that is part of the fun of the game. However what I don't feel is clear enough is that difference between a defensive mistake and a moment of brilliance. The difference between bad positioning by the GK versus him seeing the ball late. If my Goalkeeper saw it late, I could clearly check that he saw it late in replays. Same for bad positioning. I think the game could quite easily just state things like this. It's not really about making correct decisions as much as it is understanding where things are going wrong (or right) on a player level, as opposed to a tactical one.

It will simply become a " okay, this is the problem...; I've seen it before, c'mon; options will appear explaining why its happening, you know clicking A then B works..so you do just that; then press continue, game goes on...another problem, AH!, i've seen that in my last match, Click B then C twice, fixed! , click Continue..

With all due respect I think you are confused about how the idea works. There is certainly no "correct" response to any problem, and the detail and variance of the ME wouldn't be compromised.

Imagine your left back has lost every tackle. If the game tells you specifically that he has looked complacent in all of those tackles, how does that make the game too easy for you? How does it change the game at all apart from removing the unwelcome ambiguity of the animations?

[Kelron]

I think it's a nice idea overall, but maybe shouldn't give you quite so much exact detail. If you could go back and look at specific events the same way TV pundits might after a match, see if maybe a player is a touch too slow, if an individual error caused a problem or if they were simply outclassed.

To some extent the game does tell you this, a lot of it is hidden in the stats which are more useful than looking at individual events (missing one shot doesn't mean a striker can't finish). The issue is the confusion between what you see as a match plays out and what the ME tells you is happening, e.g. an apparent wonder goal might be recorded as a goalkeeping error. As much as the visual matches have improved, they're still a long way from the point that you can truly see what's going on from watching. Until then having more text analysis would help to fill in the gaps.

[samuelawachie]

I really disagree that I can get the information I am asking for from watching full matches and using the analysis tools. I feel confident in this because I have tried quite a lot. There is no notable difference between a striker shooting badly because he lacks confidence, or lacks composure, or lacks balance, or lacks finishing, or because the chance wasn't as good as it appeared. I can't tell this by watching full matches, or by looking at the analysis tabs and stats.

You are right that being meticulous pays off, and I'm in the bittersweet position of being able to set up appropriately against a lot of the formations, but almost never against very narrow play. I'm working on it, and that is part of the fun of the game. However what I don't feel is clear enough is that difference between a defensive mistake and a moment of brilliance. The difference between bad positioning by the GK versus him seeing the ball late.

The reason you wouldn't know which attribute deficiency is at fault is because you're NOT supposed to know that info explicitly. The attributes are linked. It almost always is not simply because "player X" has poor balance that he missed a chance. That's just too simplistic and doesn't reflect how the ME does its calculations. It takes everything into account, including the attributes you indicated and a lot of others that you still wouldn't see even if your idea was implemented verbatim. That you saw it as a finishing deficiency doesn't mean i will see it as such. That could just be your own opinion, and not mine. What you see as a clear cut chance could just be easily proved to not be so clear cut by someone else. That's the thing with football and FM. If you interpret someone missing a chance due to low finishing stat and low confidence, i could counter with the fact that someone with finishing of 2 and confidence of 0 can still score ( just for the simple reason that there is more to finishing chances and not finishing chances that have nothing to do with direct finishing skill). I don't know if you're getting what i'm trying to say.

As for the other point, even RL managers and players still can't tell for certain whether a goal was a keeper mistake or a piece of unbridled skill. There are many examples where the game itself says it's a 'fluke' goal. That means it's neither black or white. That grey area is ESSENTIAL to football.

You want something that's too deterministic, for lack of a better word. Football is just simply not like that.., and seeking to make it deterministic is arcadey and defeats the purpose of the sport

[Kelron]

As for the other point, even RL managers and players still can't tell for certain whether a goal was a keeper mistake or a piece of unbridled skill. There are many examples where the game itself says it's a 'fluke' goal. That means it's neither black or white. That grey area is ESSENTIAL to football.

You want something that's too deterministic, for lack of a better word. Football is just simply not like that.., and seeking to make it deterministic is arcadey and defeats the purpose of the sport

I realise there's times you can't tell, but there's other times where the game outright tells you "x player made a mistake", either in stats or post-match reports. Trouble is if you were just watching the match you wouldn't take in that information, even if you might in the same situation watching a real match, because the 3D engine isn't at that point yet. What would be nice is a way to round up information the game already gives you one way or another but isn't able to present clearly right now.

Take a different example of an attacker with the ball rounding a defender and getting free on goal. There's a ton of reasons that could happen, and some are fairly obvious IRL like the defender stumbling or simply being outpaced. Even for less obvious ones like the attacker's skill, the commentators will often offer an opinion (which plenty of people will disagree with). Now take the same situation in FM, and what information do you get? The players kind of mash together for a second then one wins. Sometimes one goes to ground but there's no real way to tell if it's a foul or legitimate unless the game tells you. You can't really see why one player wins out over the other in those situations.

[samuelawachie]

In Science, what you want can only be done in a deterministic process or setting. Football is simply the opposite of that, in that everything (yes, including luck, if there's such a thing) affects every other thing. So the ME giving you a reason for things happening, not only will that be nigh impossible to code, will be buggy and could easily be proved to be going against the natural grain of the sport (randomness, within limits)

[samuelawachie]

I realise there's times you can't tell, but there's other times where the game outright tells you "x player made a mistake", either in stats or post-match reports. Trouble is if you were just watching the match you wouldn't take in that information, even if you might in the same situation watching a real match, because the 3D engine isn't at that point yet. What would be nice is a way to round up information the game already gives you one way or another but isn't able to present clearly right now.

Take a different example of an attacker with the ball rounding a defender and getting free on goal. There's a ton of reasons that could happen, and some are fairly obvious IRL like the defender stumbling or simply being outpaced. Even for less obvious ones like the attacker's skill, the commentators will often offer an opinion (which plenty of people will disagree with). Now take the same situation in FM, and what information do you get? The players kind of mash together for a second then one wins. Sometimes one goes to ground but there's no real way to tell if it's a foul or legitimate unless the game tells you. You can't really see why one player wins out over the other in those situations.

Okay, how will the game tell you that it's coz of the poor pitch that the keeper missed. Or that the sun was in his line of sight? Or that the wind bent the ball from its natural path.., etc.. There are just too many variables that determine outcomes in football. And sadly, although the ME can't accurately represent all these, it's doing okay for now.

What the OP originally posted though, in that format, will just not be viable.

The only way it can be improved without issues setting in is if there are more animations, and/or it's indicated in commentary. But for the kind of detail he wishes, it's just not gonna happen.

[YKW]

The reason you wouldn't know which attribute deficiency is at fault is because you're NOT supposed to know that info explicitly.

I don't want to know that information explicitly, I want there to be some way of discerning between the different scenarios. In an ideal situation a striker losing his balance while shooting would look different from that same player snatching at the chance.

If your striker has missed all of his chances and the game tells you that he lost his balance on each of these occasions, how does this really change anything aside from removing the ambiguity of the animations? What would be your " clicking A makes B work" decision based off this?

[samuelawachie]

I don't want to know that information explicitly, I want there to be some way of discerning between the different scenarios. In an ideal situation a striker losing his balance while shooting would look different from that same player snatching at the chance.

If your striker has missed all of his chances and the game tells you that he lost his balance on each of these occasions, how does this really change anything aside from removing the ambiguity of the animations? What would be your " clicking A makes B work" decision based off this?

Perhaps that was not the right phrase to use there in that post i made. But the point i wanted to make is that, if he lost his balance and the game told you just so. What if i want more info? Why, How exactly, at what point did he lose his balance? How can the game tell that he's lost his balance? Was it when both feet left the pitch? or when he fell over? Do you agree that players with Balance = 20 still lose their balance? Imagine the game now showing you Balance -- in such a situation, will it make sense? All these would need to be calculated, taking every other variable that could affect it, and then, where does it end? It would raise more questions that it answers.

Anyway, i think more animations are the way to go here, and improving the commentary. Don't think i'm completely knocking your idea...JS

[YKW]

Take a different example of an attacker with the ball rounding a defender and getting free on goal. There's a ton of reasons that could happen, and some are fairly obvious IRL like the defender stumbling or simply being outpaced. Even for less obvious ones like the attacker's skill, the commentators will often offer an opinion (which plenty of people will disagree with). Now take the same situation in FM, and what information do you get? The players kind of mash together for a second then one wins. Sometimes one goes to ground but there's no real way to tell if it's a foul or legitimate unless the game tells you. You can't really see why one player wins out over the other in those situations.

As an extension of this, and something I'm sure most people have experienced is the "Dammit! I forgot to check the post match analysis to see if the ref made a mistake for that red card." There's no real way of knowing, even for tackles which your assistant later describes as "vicious." (Or is it cynical?). They look largely the same as most other slide tackles. Maybe there is a screen I'm missing for the summary of whether the ref "got the major decisions right" (or whatever it says,) but regardless, it would be great to be told that something was a vicious tackle without having to wait for 90 minutes. I know the match report can give clues, but it doesn't do so in the case of vicious tackles that go unpunished.

There are only so many conclusions I can draw from the players "mashing together for a second" as you describe. Hopefully somebody can come up with a much less tacky version of what I have suggested.

[samuelawachie]

As an extension of this, and something I'm sure most people have experienced is the "Dammit! I forgot to check the post match analysis to see if the ref made a mistake for that red card." There's no real way of knowing, even for tackles which your assistant later describes as "vicious." (Or is it cynical?). They look largely the same as most other slide tackles. Maybe there is a screen I'm missing for the summary of whether the ref "got the major decisions right" (or whatever it says,) but regardless, it would be great to be told that something was a vicious tackle without having to wait for 90 minutes. I know the match report can give clues, but it doesn't do so in the case of vicious tackles that go unpunished.

There are only so many conclusions I can draw from the players "mashing together for a second" as you describe. Hopefully somebody can come up with a much less tacky version of what I have suggested.

Okay, now this last particular example is a better one. And imo, the only way the user can get a better representation of what actually happened with a foul like that is more animations. In another thread, people were talking about a similar issue (jostling in the corner flag, to waste time). New animations are the way to go for things like this. But yes, as Kerlon quite rightly put, the idea overall is something they should look at. But i think the "right" way to fix it is more animations.

Alright, gotta go to bed. lol It's past midnight here (:

night

[YKW]

Perhaps that was not the right phrase to use there in that post i made. But the point i wanted to make is that, if he lost his balance and the game told you just so. What if i want more info? Why, How exactly, at what point did he lose his balance? How can the game tell that he's lost his balance? Was it when both feet left the pitch? or when he fell over? Do you agree that players with Balance = 20 still lose their balance? Imagine the game now showing you Balance -- in such a situation, will it make sense? All these would need to be calculated, taking every other variable that could affect it, and then, where does it end? It would raise more questions that it answers.

Anyway, i think more animations are the way to go here, and improving the commentary. Don't think i'm completely knocking your idea...JS

Trust me I would have no problem if you were knocking my idea, it's just necessary for progress. I have never met anybody who comes up with the perfect idea right off the bat - discussion is never a waste of time.

I think adding more animations is a good choice, and hopefully that continues to be an ongoing process. However I have tried to come up with an idea like this based on my belief that even FIFA level graphics wouldn't do the detail of the ME justice. I don't think a suitable level of graphics exists anywhere really, so I don't see more animations as a solution, just natural progression. Improving the commentary bar could also be a good choice.

I can't answer all your questions, but yes, players with 20 balance still lose their balance. In a balance related duel I would expect the higher balance guy to win more often though, OTBE. In terms of the extra detail you mention, I think these things could be inferred from watching a real match, so I'm sure there would be benefit to including them in the game. However overall I think that is an uneccessary level of detail for the objective. My aim is to reduce the amount of interpretation needed when watching the 3D ME, so that I know what I just watched. In the case of the player with 20 Balance missing a shot and the game showing me [balance --] I would be satisfied. The player lost his balance when shooting, it happens. If there were defenders near him in the replay I would be even happier - it would just vindicate the ME. If there were no defenders, but I notice that the pitch is really wet, I would be equally satisfied. That to me is more satisfying than wondering if he lost his balance or snatched at the chance or didn't concentrate and miskicked the ball.

EDIT: Goodnight:lol:

[suikoden]

I'd just prefer more animations.

To be fair I hang around the tactics forums 90% of the time so that is where my focus in the game is at. I like looking at systems and structure so if a striker is missing all his shots, I don’t really care if he isn’t balanced or not. I look to see whether my system created good shots for him, and if he is missing them often then I suspect his hidden attributes (like consistency ) has something to do with it or he is just low on confidence.

There is always ambiguity. If a striker is off balance for a shot with no defenders near him it could mean many things i.e. he saw a defender in the corner of his eye, the pitch is wet, the ball bounced awkwardly… Having a pop up saying he wasn't balanced doesn't really do anything for me. Even if the popup was in-depth or elaborates on why, it still doesn't make a difference to me.

I try to trust in my system and see if my players can execute.

It always cool to see someone dedicate to them game and wanting to improve it though.

Thank you.

[Goosewinkle]

I agree with those who say the pop-up bubbles would be arcade-y. But I also wholeheartedly agree that the match engine design is way too opaque, and the game suffers for it. It's the polar opposite of a Paradox title (the OP totally reminded me of them!), where they explicitly tell you how the game works. I don't understand why SI keeps all this stuff so secret. Things like:

How does the ME implement Anticipation? Does Composure apply just to shooting? Or does it apply to defenders too?

How does it implement Balance? Is it how quickly a player can turn around I guess?

Does Finishing apply to Penalty Kicks? Or does the Penalty Kick attribute contain Finishing and Composure "inside" of it?

How does the ME implement Natural Fitness? It seems completely redundant with all the other physical attributes.

What is Flair? I forget what the tooltip says in the game, but I remember it being hopelessly vague and worthless.

Sorry if I'm ranting. But I think if SI would just explain stuff like this, it would clear up a lot. It's frustrating to me that they leave it to third parties to publish guides. Then I have no idea how reliable they are.

[WizbaII]

As a manager, just because you know what the issue is doesn't guarantee that your solution will work. Even knowing the right solution doesn't guarantee that it will work. It's the same as IRL, so I don't see OP's suggestion as arcadey.

I agree with OP's need for more info. and I do think a solution could be to improve commentary. I'm surprised that commentary in 2015 still only shows one line at a time and there's no way to see a log of the commentary line by line. But I don't think an entire overlay is necessary.

Ultimately, the time they put into doing an overlay would be better spent fixing the graphical issues that are really confusing (such as when a player who is really far away gets to the ball first). If the ME is occasionally showing the positions of players incorrectly, then that doesn't seem like it has anything to do with how many animations are available for the ME to use.

If an overlay was implemented though, it would have to be for a replay, not for a match that is currently playing. That fact alone would mean that SI would never dedicate the necessary resources to make it happen.

[HUNT3R]

I agree with those who say the pop-up bubbles would be arcade-y. But I also wholeheartedly agree that the match engine design is way too opaque, and the game suffers for it. It's the polar opposite of a Paradox title (the OP totally reminded me of them!), where they explicitly tell you how the game works. I don't understand why SI keeps all this stuff so secret. Things like:

How does the ME implement Anticipation? Does Composure apply just to shooting? Or does it apply to defenders too?

How does it implement Balance? Is it how quickly a player can turn around I guess?

Does Finishing apply to Penalty Kicks? Or does the Penalty Kick attribute contain Finishing and Composure "inside" of it?

How does the ME implement Natural Fitness? It seems completely redundant with all the other physical attributes.

What is Flair? I forget what the tooltip says in the game, but I remember it being hopelessly vague and worthless.

Sorry if I'm ranting. But I think if SI would just explain stuff like this, it would clear up a lot. It's frustrating to me that they leave it to third parties to publish guides. Then I have no idea how reliable they are.

Have you read the manual? The attribute explanations in there are quite good and clear.

[samuelawachie]

Okay, having had time to think things through a bit more, I think what the OP suggested is what is known in tech language as Debugger mode. Here, for every action/event, the programmer can pause to see what values variables hold and know what's going on behind the scenes and how outcomes are got. I'm pretty sure SI programmer staff have such a mode to test the game out.

There'd be a slim bar just above the commentary bar that shows something similar to what you described in OP.

Whether SI want to make this mode accessible to the general user though would be their decision. Until then, animations are the way to go.

[RTHerringbone]

My view is that this is intended to be a football simulator and the proposed "solution" is a stream of information which has no in-game equivalent in "real" football, and so it shouldn't be in FM. I agree with those who suggest it feels too "game-y".

Perhaps it could be realised in a separate way by adding another layer of player interaction to pick up themes? As an example, if one of your DCs seems to keep mistiming headers you could perhaps have an individual chat with him to discuss the issue. That might enable you to glean more than you can from existing in-match widgets and training feedback?

Football is opaque and whilst I agree that the graphical representation of the ME often makes FM too opaque, the increased number of animations this year and in following iterations should help to clear some mud from the water.

[jc1]

My view is that this is intended to be a football simulator and the proposed "solution" is a stream of information which has no in-game equivalent in "real" football, and so it shouldn't be in FM. I agree with those who suggest it feels too "game-y".

Perhaps it could be realised in a separate way by adding another layer of player interaction to pick up themes? As an example, if one of your DCs seems to keep mistiming headers you could perhaps have an individual chat with him to discuss the issue. That might enable you to glean more than you can from existing in-match widgets and training feedback?

Football is opaque and whilst I agree that the graphical representation of the ME often makes FM too opaque, the increased number of animations this year and in following iterations should help to clear some mud from the water.

Unfortunately in FM15 we get feedback from the assistant telling me X players played badly due to his inability to win headers, so when I go to speak with X player, there is NO option to tell him his heading was poor, just either he played badly, passing was poor or tackling was poor. We need better options to speak to our players, why can't we have an empty option on the bottom like at press conferences where we can add something when talking to the player.

[asdpoo]

Have you read the manual? The attribute explanations in there are quite good and clear.

Oh, really? Tell me what Leadership does actually? Or anything on Professionalism? The manual is a mockery, it doesn't even work properly - the sidebar doesn't expand.

[RTHerringbone]

Unfortunately in FM15 we get feedback from the assistant telling me X players played badly due to his inability to win headers, so when I go to speak with X player, there is NO option to tell him his heading was poor, just either he played badly, passing was poor or tackling was poor. We need better options to speak to our players, why can't we have an empty option on the bottom like at press conferences where we can add something when talking to the player.

I know

My point was that perhaps a less "game-y" way of reaching the OPs end product would be for interactions to be enhanced to enable you to converse based on specific events in matches. However, interactions are very Marmite in this game, and adding more could be a right ball-ache to implement.

[RTHerringbone]

Oh, really? Tell me what Leadership does actually? Or anything on Professionalism? The manual is a mockery, it doesn't even work properly - the sidebar doesn't expand.

Leadership: "Leadership is the player’s ability to affect events or other players without any intentional effort. Players with high Leadership will be influential on the pitch and team-mates will tend to rally around these players."

Professionalism relates to Personality, (it is a hidden attribute). I'll try to find a guide to Personality.....

EDIT - Done: http://sisportscentre.com/player-personality-tutoring/

[asdpoo]

Leadership: "Leadership is the player’s ability to affect events or other players without any intentional effort. Players with high Leadership will be influential on the pitch and team-mates will tend to rally around these players."

Professionalism relates to Personality, and not attributes. I'll try to find a guide to that.....

EDIT - Done: http://sisportscentre.com/player-personality-tutoring/

You are missing my point and it is that the official information - manual or in-game is severely lacking. "Leadership" is in the guide, but its dictionary definition is worthless. What it should say for example is "it passes X % of the captain's Determination/Professionalism to his teammates". Same goes with Flair. Nobody knows for sure if Penalty Taking is stand-alone and does Finishing apply to Long shots.

On the other hand "Professionalism" is not in the guide and we all know it is mighty important. Only people who pay for the in-game editor can discover that hidden attributes even exist. Despite the fact that Personality and Media handling are visible cues to those hidden attributes, but nobody explains you that in the game or the manual. We know it because we've been playing for a decade and people on the forum conducted hours of testing to find things out. That is not normal.

[RTHerringbone]

You are missing my point and it is that the official information - manual or in-game is severely lacking. "Leadership" is in the guide, but its dictionary definition is worthless. What it should say for example is "it passes X % of the captain's Determination/Professionalism to his teammates".

On the other hand "Professionalism" is not in the guide and we all know it is mighty important. Only people who pay for the in-game editor can discover that hidden attributes even exist. Despite the fact that Personality and Media handling are visible cues to those hidden attributes, but nobody explains you that in the game or the manual. We know it because we've been playing for a decade and people on the forum conducted hours of testing to find things out. That is not normal.

Things aren't so binary though. There isn't a finite relationship between individual attributes and outcomes in the Match Engine, because events in the Match Engine are prompted by multiple factors. The fact that a player might have a high Leadership attribute will not necessarily result in outcomes x, y or z, which is why it is not explicitly documented as such. The fact that a player has Personality x, y or z does not always mean that outcome a, b or c will occur. People obsess about knowing specifics, but even if a 10,000 page document were written about everything in the game, it would not adequately convey how those things then interact because there are millions of potential combinations of factors, scenarios, attributes etc.

This is football. How did Bayern not score last night? Everyone's favourite Hipster doesn't even know that.

[hluraven]

You are missing my point and it is that the official information - manual or in-game is severely lacking. "Leadership" is in the guide, but its dictionary definition is worthless. What it should say for example is "it passes X % of the captain's Determination/Professionalism to his teammates". Same goes with Flair. Nobody knows for sure if Penalty Taking is stand-alone and does Finishing apply to Long shots.

On the other hand "Professionalism" is not in the guide and we all know it is mighty important. Only people who pay for the in-game editor can discover that hidden attributes even exist. Despite the fact that Personality and Media handling are visible cues to those hidden attributes, but nobody explains you that in the game or the manual. We know it because we've been playing for a decade and people on the forum conducted hours of testing to find things out. That is not normal.

I'm not sure that I could disagree more. The manual is responsible for giving you the information needed to play the game, so in the case of things like explaining attributes, a description of what each one is - not does- is key. If it told you what to do, or what % of it mattered, it wouldn't be a manual, it would be a cheat sheet.

Likewise, why would a manual explain a hidden feature, which is hidden for a good reason. The whole point is that you should only find out by experience, that is far more realistic. What you are proposing is more for a guide, not a manual. Too many things are already clear, things like exactly what star ratings coaches get etc, doing that with player attributes to give an ultimate crib sheet to success is unrealistic and would make the game far too easy.

[HUNT3R]

You are missing my point and it is that the official information - manual or in-game is severely lacking. "Leadership" is in the guide, but its dictionary definition is worthless. What it should say for example is "it passes X % of the captain's Determination/Professionalism to his teammates". Same goes with Flair. Nobody knows for sure if Penalty Taking is stand-alone and does Finishing apply to Long shots.

The dictionary explanation is 100% correct, so it's not worthless. What about the attribute Leadership isn't clear?

Penalty Taking is standalone (apart from composure, decisions and his body language), otherwise, what's the point of the penalty specific attribute?

[Goosewinkle]

Have you read the manual? The attribute explanations in there are quite good and clear.

Actually...ok I just read it, and I admit it has quite a bit more detail than I remember. So that is very helpful. But it is still vague compared to most other strategy games. With most RPG's (which is kinda what FM is!) or war games, it's documented exactly how much damage an enemy does, what its odds are to hit, exactly what bonuses weapons have, etc. All the rules are very transparent, and knowing them is by no means "cheating".

Plus a lot of developers share the mechanics with the players to give the engine credibility. I certainly don't think ALL or even most calculations should be shared. But to pick one of the more mysterious attributes, SI could write an article saying "here's an example of how Decisions works: player A is here, player B is here..." and then play out some scenarios of how Decisions enters into things.

I guess I can understand why they like it to be mysterious. Actually the 2000 animations is the only feature I'm excited about in 2016. Hopefully that helps.

[Dagenham_Dave]

I'm surprised that commentary in 2015 still only shows one line at a time and there's no way to see a log of the commentary line by line..

Yes there is, and it's been in the game for as long as I can remember.

[gunner86]

Ummmm... odd place to keep match reports

It's in the post match analysis tab IIRC

[freekicksmafia]

I like the idea of this maybe in post match view but live I figure you're watching from the sidelines you're going to make a lot of judgement calls