How many people will be buying FM on release day in future?

[Ackter]

That's a lot of words to tell me I'm not entitled to a personal opinion I am, I don't work for SI and I'm not obliged to follow any company line.

I stand by my comment that a poll is not necessary to ensure SI are aware of peoples concerns, they've already said they are publicly and you can be sure it'll be discussed at length in SI Towers.

Wait, people have seen me post and still somehow think mods have to be neutral?

[S2008]

Given the short period of time before each release now it's no wonder there has been a major hiccup with regards to the new match engine as this concept takes more than a good 14 months before it's to a standard you would come to expect from this game.

FM13 is a write off in terms of going any further and not worth the purchase in it's current state of play, it may have had 900 new additions but the most thing that is important which SI have failed to grasp over the past few years is the AI and next the match engine, you could add 2000 new additions in FM14 but it doesn't make any difference if you can't get the main two features working correctly.

To be honest they shouldnt advertise something if it doesn't work to an acceptable standard- last year it wasnt the ME that was the main selling point but the ability to Add New Leagues. That patently did not work and they didnt fix it for that version of the game (it was implemented so badly it was a gamebreaker).

Now the ME isnt "broken" as such but its not at the right level and I just think that it would be better to not promise the Earth if its not realistically deliverable- my example of FM12 and the league function being a prime example. Its not a new feature if it doesnt work.

[greco]

Great post rbkalle. Post 98, by the way.

I share those sentiments. It´s a bit like girls and make up, a new layer will appear to make her look better, but once you´ve scratched the surface, you quickly realize it is the same old ****. (pardon my french)

The ai has been lacking since the game was invented. I´m not saying there havent been progress, but after about 7 season, the stars start to fade and the game becomes much easier. This is an experience i´ve had since cm became fm.

regarding the thread topic, i´ve always bought fm on release date or close to. With age i´ve become less tolerant and i just wont accept the same mistakes over and over. Therefore, for the first time ever, i did not buy the game myself, i put the game on my wishlist for christmas. The next edition wont be on my christmas list, it will be a birthday wish, so i´ll wait until april.

[Ackter]

People keep saying the AI is lacking, yet SI have managed to create an AI that no other game comes close to.

People simply have too high expectations for some things.

It's the same with the match engine - despite its flaws, which games have ever come close to what SI have achieved?

[Jibby123]

People keep saying the AI is lacking, yet SI have managed to create an AI that no other game comes close to.

People simply have too high expectations for some things.

Not sure that's fair. Few that are reasonable are demanding it or saying it's a show stopper (cough ), but generally looking for it to improve in various areas, or giving their opinion how they'd like to see it go. AI will always be work in progress and almost impossible to match a human brain in the near future. Being computer thick and thick generally I can't imagine how hard AI must be to produce, but if SI want feedback and value it as much as they say then maybe if they fed back things like you say on our feedback we might be singing off the same sheet??

There's an us and them mentality kicking in here, and it's ****.

[Ackter]

SI want constructive feedback, which only a comparatively small number of people actually give.

[Jibby123]

SI want constructive feedback, which only a comparatively small number of people actually give.

Not really my point but hey.

[Ackter]

Not really my point but hey.

It kinda is. The reason SI are rarely here these days to provide their own feedback is because this place has become rather toxic in its levels of abuse and disrespect. You have people comparing FM to cancer, for example, and people claiming that the SI members should be sacked (including at one point the suggestion that SI should sack one of the Collyer brothers, who invented the game ffs), so why would anyone from SI want to subject themselves to having to read that? That certain SI members still come here at all is a credit to them.

[greco]

People keep saying the AI is lacking, yet SI have managed to create an AI that no other game comes close to.

People simply have too high expectations for some things.

It's the same with the match engine - despite its flaws, which games have ever come close to what SI have achieved?

yeah your a right, it is "too high expectations", when we expect something to be fixed, when the probelm has been around for ages.

comparing fm to other games is irrelevant, that goes for you question as well. doesnt make any sense.

are you insinuating that my post wasnt constructive.? I definetly feel i made my point clear, it wasnt made as a rant, far from actually. Whereas your own posts come across as a little whiney tbh. And as a mod, should you not set an example and keep things on topic.?

[Jibby123]

It's easy to cut through the irrational and ridiculous like the toxic levels you allude to. They're big boys I'm sure, hard skinned and all.

But to ask for feedback, then cut it loose because they feel under siege helps nobody least of all SI?? Every time somebody from SI comments here, the big majority appreciate their reasons as to why this and that won't happen even if they don't agree or are still major have the hump.

Alot of the threads here could be killed dead by SI sparing a few more minutes. I get that their customer service is the best I've seen online, but expectations can be managed with little effort with feedback to feedback both ways. If they're cowering under the weight of the toxic then come on....they send you and Kriss etc out to field for them??

[Ackter]

yeah your a right, it is "too high expectations", when we expect something to be fixed, when the probelm has been around for ages.

comparing fm to other games is irrelevant, that goes for you question as well. doesnt make any sense.

are you insinuating that my post wasnt constructive.? I definetly feel i made my point clear, it wasnt made as a rant, far from actually. Whereas your own posts come across as a little whiney tbh. And as a mod, should you not set an example and keep things on topic.?

Of course it's too high expectations. SI are continually putting out games that are miles ahead of any competition they've ever had - if they're struggling to get things working at 100% have you ever stopped to think that maybe it's because it's so damn hard? And of course other games are relevant, it shows just how far ahead of everyone else SI are.

No, I wasn't referring to your post when talking about being constructive.

I do love this idea that mods aren't allowed their own opinions on things, people are so damn up themselves these days when others disagree with them.

[Ackter]

It's easy to cut through the irrational and ridiculous like the toxic levels you allude to. They're big boys I'm sure, hard skinned and all.

But to ask for feedback, then cut it loose because they feel under siege helps nobody least of all SI?? Every time somebody from SI comments here, the big majority appreciate their reasons as to why this and that won't happen even if they don't agree or are still major have the hump.

Alot of the threads here could be killed dead by SI sparing a few more minutes. I get that their customer service is the best I've seen online, but expectations can be managed with little effort with feedback to feedback both ways. If they're cowering under the weight of the toxic then come on....they send you and Kriss etc out to field for them??

You say it's easy, but how much do you have to put up with things like this being directed at you? When you're at your job and go on break, for example, are you surrounded by people insulting you and saying you should be fired? If that did happen, would you start going elsewhere on your breaks, or would you stand there and take it because it's easy to cut through?

SI don't cut it loose, they still have team members who read the forums and especially the feedback threads, I just don't blame them for not opening up themselves to further abuse by posting in them as well. They don't send the mods out to field for them, we do not work for SI etc. We're here off our own backs because we want this place to be as useful as it can be.

[Jibby123]

You say it's easy, but how much do you have to put up with things like this being directed at you? When you're at your job and go on break, for example, are you surrounded by people insulting you and saying you should be fired? If that did happen, would you start going elsewhere on your breaks, or would you stand there and take it because it's easy to cut through?

SI don't cut it loose, they still have team members who read the forums and especially the feedback threads, I just don't blame them for not opening up themselves to further abuse by posting in them as well. They don't send the mods out to field for them, we do not work for SI etc. We're here off our own backs because we want this place to be as useful as it can be.

I way too often put up with everytime we went out for a walk at work for 6 months at a time all these nutters not wanting me to do my job would lob 7.62 at me and my mates Ackter and carry on when we finished the day with lobbing rockets and RPG and a little bit more 7.62 at me when I was trying to sleep at times. And would cut off our any chance of anyone sending in fresh water or re-sup by road for days at a time....so that's not going to cut about being thick skinned at work. At least this is a game.

Nobody should have to take abuse over a mere game I get but if you want to cut the entrenched us and them (and I'm one of those on SI's side ) they could step up outside the wire a bit?? I wasn't meaning to have a go at mods here, your job is crap and I'd not do it, but they seem ok to let you fight their corner here sometimes.

Feedback is double edged sword, the latest thread on it has 45000 in just over a week, SI need to be thankful it's not 45 views maybe??

That "us and them" from all sides is the worse I've seen I think on this forum; that's not good for anyone.

[greco]

Of course it's too high expectations. SI are continually putting out games that are miles ahead of any competition they've ever had - if they're struggling to get things working at 100% have you ever stopped to think that maybe it's because it's so damn hard? And of course other games are relevant, it shows just how far ahead of everyone else SI are.

No, I wasn't referring to your post when talking about being constructive.

I do love this idea that mods aren't allowed their own opinions on things, people are so damn up themselves these days when others disagree with them.

i´ll try once again. The fact si produces the best football manager game, is completely irrelevant. The ai issue has been there for ages and it is still there. The fact that they deliver on several fronts, doesnt make them immune to valid critisism on others. Dont know why you wont acknowledge that, seems both logical and fair to me.

okay, did seem a bit odd, so had to ask.

dont know why you bring that point up, i never wrote "you are a mod and cant have an opinion".? What i actually did say or tried to say was, that your point regarding constructive feedback was completely out of context and rather weird, especially as the post you replied to , that would be mine, wasnt lacking in regards to constructive feedback. You yourself even admitted that.

I´ll just add that im not interested in a circular debate, where things go back and forth, with the same pov´s being repetead. I´ve made my stance clear and i feel you have too, so happy new years and lets leave it at that.

[Ackter]

I way too often put up with everytime we went out for a walk at work for 6 months at a time all these nutters not wanting me to do my job would lob 7.62 at me and my mates Ackter and carry on when we finished the day with lobbing rockets and RPG and a little bit more 7.62 at me when I was trying to sleep at times. And would cut off our any chance of anyone sending in fresh water or re-sup by road for days at a time....so that's not going to cut about being thick skinned at work. At least this is a game.

Nobody should have to take abuse over a mere game I get but if you want to cut the entrenched us and them (and I'm one of those on SI's side ) they could step up outside the wire a bit?? I wasn't meaning to have a go at mods here, your job is crap and I'd not do it, but they seem ok to let you fight their corner here sometimes.

Feedback is double edged sword, the latest thread on it has 45000 in just over a week, SI need to be thankful it's not 45 views maybe??

That "us and them" from all sides is the worse I've seen I think on this forum; that's not good for anyone.

Pfft, I once got a milkshake thrown at me*...

We're trying to get the forums back to how they used to be, but it's bloody hard with the sheer amount of vitriol going around. Unfortunately I think it's a cultural/generational thing and we're in for a bit of a struggle.

*seriously, every time I finally decide to question someone I always pick someone like you with that kind of experience Why can I never catch a break and pick someone who makes souvenirs out of seashells and googly-eyes or something...

[Optimistic Dave]

How world class companies respond to problems is crucial, as not even the very best get it right first time. If they make a hash of the next patch though and then cut us loose until 2014 then I'll probably not give them any money next year.

[davehanson]

I have always bought the game on release day, or earlier via pre-orders etc. And I will continue to do so.

I don't know what all the bugs/problems are that people are complaining about, I am enjoying the game so far, and enjoying my various saves. I had an issue with regards to the game just crashing randomly, but that has been sorted now.

My worry is, if people stop buying the game on release day then the amount of issues (and there will always be issues) being reported will drop, the amount of bugs/issues being found will decrease. This then makes the game 'unplayable' for a longer period.

[Jibby123]

We're trying to get the forums back to how they used to be, but it's bloody hard with the sheer amount of vitriol going around. Unfortunately I think it's a cultural/generational thing and we're in for a bit of a struggle....

Not that it counts for much, but I think the mods here across the whole site are on the ball, use common sense and are more than capable of giving as good as they get balanced with doing their job. I couldn't do it, but that wasn't really my point, I'd put my fist through the screen at the crap you have to babysit. I can't even babysit myself online let alone anyone else.

[brad71]

always have and it pains me to say that i am 50/50 i play network games only and have bought a game that is not playerble online and has not been since day one. wont be that long before we are all onabout 2014 will those of us that play online only get some form of reduction in price for next years game,of course not so as for this years game i have paid my £30 and not been able to play the game how i have done for the last 6 years or so since the split between fm/cm.and to be honest im more dissapionted than angry just hope that si sort the network problems out very soon.and i hope this years problems are a one off.

[spiralsecurities]

I decided I no longer need the frustration that accompanies playing the game from release day, and costing more money to do so. I will wait until the january patch for subsequent games until there is a change.

I know I'm not alone and the longer this happens I am sure more people will come to the same conclusion. I have played many FMs - and I love to support a good game company that produces a wonderful product - where I felt similarly but this year simply pushed me to that decision. Most decisions that humans make involve an emotional reaction not logic. The frustration after looking forward to a new ME was so large that it has changed my buying habit towards the game.

[YKW]

always have and it pains me to say that i am 50/50 i play network games only and have bought a game that is not playerble online and has not been since day one. wont be that long before we are all onabout 2014 will those of us that play online only get some form of reduction in price for next years game,of course not so as for this years game i have paid my £30 and not been able to play the game how i have done for the last 6 years or so since the split between fm/cm.and to be honest im more dissapionted than angry just hope that si sort the network problems out very soon.and i hope this years problems are a one off.

I feel for you as I've already said I am a network gamer too. Previously, the only problems I ever had playing network games came through using an edited database, but this year, by most accounts, they are almost impossible to play. Add to this the removal of LAN possibilities, and a huge part of my FM experience, that has become a ritual to me and my friends, is gone.

I remember when my biggest worry about network games was when the player waiting indicator changed from big red text (that you could make flash at your partner by repeatedly clicking continue) to the tiny little icon next to the continue button. This lead to many txt messages being sent simply saying "continue."

[RBKalle]

People keep saying the AI is lacking, yet SI have managed to create an AI that no other game comes close to.

People simply have too high expectations for some things.

It's the same with the match engine - despite its flaws, which games have ever come close to what SI have achieved?

And that's the reason we:

1) are still here

2) developed such "high expectations"

Frankly I don't really care how the competition is doing because that's not the point... Stale bread won't taste like steak, even if the rest of the buffet is made of muddy roadkill.

The point is: the great AI they created has clearly started to show its age. Why keeping on trying to "revive" something that has been on its last legs for several iterations already when there indeed are enough resources to explore something new?

Nobody expects AI to outsmart a human being... but is it so unreasonable asking for a new, less rigid, transfers module where Reputation isn't the be all and end all factor involving signings, loans, contracts etc?

SI have tried to find a decent balance with the tools they had, but it takes just a little bit of honesty to admit it didn't work out well. It's not a dig at them: they did TRY hard, but a square peg won't ever fit into a round hole.

Hiding themselves behind "we're still the best football management game in town" and "it's still very much playable" isn't going to make much good in the long run.

The lamented level of vitriol and abuse doesn't come just from lack of manners or from impossible expectations... it also stems from the fact many years of feedback have produced very little results. Or led to a "one step forward, two backwards" policy when other additions/tweaks caused unwanted and unforeseen side effects.

For the last time: nobody's denying SI's efforts, some just disagree on the way and the direction such efforts have been heading.

[Kain]

Going back to the original question, I'll continue to do what I've done for the last few years. I'll try the demo and then decide. If I really like the demo, I'll buy it on release day. If there's something in the demo that really bothers me and hampers my enjoyment of the game, I won't buy it, but I'll continue to check the forum to see if it gets fixed in a future patch. If it does, then I'll probably buy it later.

[Kriss]

.

Nobody expects AI to outsmart a human being... but is it so unreasonable asking for a new, less rigid, transfers module where Reputation isn't the be all and end all factor involving signings, loans, contracts etc?

SI have tried to find a decent balance with the tools they had, but it takes just a little bit of honesty to admit it didn't work out well. It's not a dig at them: they did TRY hard, but a square peg won't ever fit into a round hole.

Your earlier post wrapped it up well but people are getting somewhat confused over what you said it seems.

This year SI did precisely what you recommend and rewrote an outdated module, it was the right thing to do and even though it's been problematic we know they'll get it right in the end.

Unfortunately it was the trickiest and also the core module which vastly accentuates any problems.

Your contention that many (if not all modules) need the same kind of treatment is correct imo, it might take a while as it would entail a huge amount of work and should probably be done one module at a time, but each facet of the game needs it (some need much expansionas well)

I've no idea what future plans are but I hope this is under serious consideration, we know the pressure for "new" features is always on but FM is one of few games which at times needs that less than big inprovements of the functionality of what exists.

Football doesn't fundamentally change year on year, FM doesn't need to either because there's vast scope for making the current functionality immensely better which is what most seem to want.

[Drazkul]

Put maybe as it depends on whether I can afford it or not

[kingjericho]

I've been buying FM on release day but the fact is I still haven't played FM13... So after I play it decently I'll decide about FM14.

[RBKalle]

This year SI did precisely what you recommend and rewrote an outdated module, it was the right thing to do and even though it's been problematic we know they'll get it right in the end.

Unfortunately it was the trickiest and also the core module which vastly accentuates any problems.

Football doesn't fundamentally change year on year, FM doesn't need to either because there's vast scope for making the current functionality immensely better which is what most seem to want.

That's precisely the reason why I firmly believe the ME (assuming that's the key module you're talking about) wasn't the top priority by any means...

FM12's ME wasn't perfect but it still was adequate and a handful (like the usual hundreds) of small tweaks/fixes could have probably kept it going strong for another year.

On the other hand the transfers/squad building module had been subpar for a couple of iterations already, so I really struggle to understand why Si/SEGA decided to prioritize a new ME.

IMO boasting a "new and improved AI for longer and more satisfying challenges" would have been a selling point as big as a new ME, if not even bigger.

I really hope they'll see the light and will go for a total overhaul... Should that happen, I'll be the first to preorder FM14 as soon as it'll be available.

[Ackter]

As those things are handled by two separate teams, what gain would there be from telling the ME team to not bother trying to improve it while something else they have nothing to do with needs doing?

[brad71]

Your earlier post wrapped it up well but people are getting somewhat confused over what you said it seems.

This year SI did precisely what you recommend and rewrote an outdated module, it was the right thing to do and even though it's been problematic we know they'll get it right in the end.

Unfortunately it was the trickiest and also the core module which vastly accentuates any problems.

Your contention that many (if not all modules) need the same kind of treatment is correct imo, it might take a while as it would entail a huge amount of work and should probably be done one module at a time, but each facet of the game needs it (some need much expansionas well)

I've no idea what future plans are but I hope this is under serious consideration, we know the pressure for "new" features is always on but FM is one of few games which at times needs that less than big inprovements of the functionality of what exists.

Football doesn't fundamentally change year on year, FM doesn't need to either because there's vast scope for making the current functionality immensely better which is what most seem to want.

agree with you there kriss personally si did too much this year in my opinion new match engine,and im sure most people would expect it not to be perfect.but then we had all these new game modes and a new way of playing online which has been a disaster.si should have just done the match engine and maybe one of the other two and done the rest for future versions.

[Ackter]

Again, different teams handle different things. What gain would there be from telling a team to sit around doing nothing?

[RBKalle]

As those things are handled by two separate teams, what gain would there be from telling the ME team to not bother trying to improve it while something else they have nothing to do with needs doing?

Didn't know that, but even under such circumstances, two separate teams working on two brand new modules at the same time would have been too "risky".

The way I understand it, FM as a whole is the result of the interaction of several modules, so altering not one but two factors of the equation would have seen the chance of mishaps go through the roof.

Also, I didn't say they shouldn't have bothered with the ME... I just said it shouldn't have been the Chosen One for a radical rewriting, given other areas have been problematic for a longer time

[brad71]

i am not asking for a team to sit and do nothing im sure its a bloody hard job that they do but just maybe if one team is working on something new,maybe better for another team to tweak what that team does instead of creating something new all the time.as kriss says football does not change from year to year.

[Lawlore]

I think as much of the issue is that SI themselves have caused their fanbase to have elevated expectations, because for a number of years, every iteration WAS a significant improvement on the previous one. Comparing with other seasonal games (say, the WWE games, Madden, FIFA- take your pick), the speed of development is immense- these are not simple roster updates year-on-year.

At FM12, the game reached a point which grew from natural progression and development over the series, where it was a very good game with a variety of elements that had some modules which required more depth or balance, some key fixes, but otherwise wasn't far off being an excellent one. It is quite a telling sign that most of the FM12 launch bitching (and bitching comes year on year) was about Steam, piracy and all that jazz, rather than about the game itself.

But in FM13, the polish didn't come (Press Conferences), the fixes weren't fixed (AI Squad Building), and instead the focus was on "new" modules, many of which resulted in things being removed from the game. There were new "modes" (FMC), new "features" (DoF) and, of course, a "new" ME. I'd get lambasted for saying there was nothing wrong with the FM12 ME- of course it can be improved on, and I think PaulC's attitude that the ME will never be finished is a fantastic one showing the ambition he has for it. But the FM12 engine was at least relatively stable- it did its job. Not to the best of its ability, but to an acceptable enough degree. The sheer volume of feedback for the FM13 engine shows it is not considered by many to be at the same level as it has in the past, and this feedback has been coming since the Public Beta. The criticism is down to the fact that the previous track record is so good- if this overhaul of the ME is noticeably more erratic than previous engines, it is going to be scrutinised, criticised and commented upon.

SI have set a high standard for themselves, and elevated expectations for the fans. And while it's fine to take two steps forward to take one back, the fear here is that FM is taking two backwards just to move forwards one.

[Lord Rowell]

For a poll that, according to a moderator, isn't remotely representative and is unnecessary, there is nonetheless one heck of a moderator presence on this thread.

This is an opinion thread for the community, surely, rather than for repeated defensive posts by moderators?

Nonetheless, at least some interest is now being taken... by moderators alone(?), or the other people who work at SI who really matter?

Disappointing. As per my earlier posts, let the community have their say. SI can choose to listen. Moderators don't need to bail in here in corporate defence, in fact I think your presence on this thread makes SI's position worse.

To every moderator who has posted on here - go back, how do you think what you've posted goes down in the eyes of your community? On the 2nd page of this thread you have a very high mod/community post-frequency ratio and it is not of a helping-support kind.

[Govnar1]

People keep saying the AI is lacking, yet SI have managed to create an AI that no other game comes close to.

My brother said that most depressing fact about FM and game industry is that it is best game by far.

As those things are handled by two separate teams, what gain would there be from telling the ME team to not bother trying to improve it while something else they have nothing to do with needs doing?

So what has prevented AI team from overhauling transfer AI for so log?

[themadsheep2001]

For a poll that, according to a moderator, isn't remotely representative and is unnecessary, there is nonetheless one heck of a moderator presence on this thread.

This is an opinion thread for the community, surely, rather than for repeated defensive posts by moderators?

Nonetheless, at least some interest is now being taken... by moderators alone(?), or the other people who work at SI who really matter?

Disappointing. As per my earlier posts, let the community have their say. SI can choose to listen. Moderators don't need to bail in here in corporate defence, in fact I think your presence on this thread makes SI's position worse.

To every moderator who has posted on here - go back, how do you think what you've posted goes down in the eyes of your community? On the 2nd page of this thread you have a very high mod/community post-frequency ratio and it is not of a helping-support kind.

You know they don't do corporate defence right, they have their own opinions? Just because you might not agree with them doesnt make it some kind of "corporate defence". Last time I checked, they were most definitely a part of the community.

Jibby123 was right, there is an "us and them" mentality on this forum, And its pretty sad.

[Lord Rowell]

@themadsheep2001 re post 134 and ref. to my earlier post 91.

Nothing to do with own opinions, once you set foot on the plate to be a moderator, you don't have opinions on key areas, you are neutral. That is what being a moderator is about.

The "us & them" mentality arises because of abandonment of the principle of neutrality. I agree it is sad but it has been brought about by people other than (though not exclusive of) the general community.

[Kriss]

You know they don't do corporate defence right, they have their own opinions? Just because you might not agree with them doesnt make it some kind of "corporate defence". Last time I checked, they were most definitely a part of the community.

Jibby123 was right, there is an "us and them" mentality on this forum, And its pretty sad.

I include Mods in the us we of course have the privilege of lambasting SI in private (which we do on occasion) but we are first and foremost FM fans who want the best for the game.

Some of us know much about SI's workings, work ethic and methodology but we aren't consulted on it and are no part of producing the game whatsoever but we are sometimes better placed to comment on certain things.

Lord Rowell has this idea we're SI lackies and should have no freedom to express our thoughts as fans (and critics) I went through this whole scenario with him last year before he finally belted up but he obviously has an authority complex or something

[themadsheep2001]

@themadsheep2001 re post 134 and ref. to my earlier post 91.

Nothing to do with own opinions, once you set foot on the plate to be a moderator, you don't have opinions on key areas, you are neutral. That is what being a moderator is about.

The "us & them" mentality arises because of abandonment of the principle of neutrality. I agree it is sad but it has been brought about by people other than (though not exclusive of) the general community.

Of course they can have an opinion on anything. Their only neutraility is in enforcing the rules and keeping the abuse out.

[Kriss]

@themadsheep2001 re post 134 and ref. to my earlier post 91.

Nothing to do with own opinions, once you set foot on the plate to be a moderator, you don't have opinions on key areas, you are neutral. That is what being a moderator is about.

The "us & them" mentality arises because of abandonment of the principle of neutrality. I agree it is sad but it has been brought about by people other than (though not exclusive of) the general community.

Proving my last point somewhat emphatically

[Lord Rowell]

I include Mods in the us we of course have the privilege of lambasting SI in private (which we do on occasion) but we are first and foremost FM fans who want the best for the game.

Some of us know much about SI's workings, work ethic and methodology but we aren't consulted on it and are no part of producing the game whatsoever but we are sometimes better placed to comment on certain things.

Lord Rowell has this idea we're SI lackies and should have no freedom to express our thoughts as fans (and critics) I went through this whole scenario with him last year before he finally belted up but he obviously has an authority complex or something

Petty, petty, petty response and it can sit here.

As I said, the moderation team would be far better to stay out of this thread from the outset and listen to its community

[Ackter]

Didn't know that, but even under such circumstances, two separate teams working on two brand new modules at the same time would have been too "risky".

The way I understand it, FM as a whole is the result of the interaction of several modules, so altering not one but two factors of the equation would have seen the chance of mishaps go through the roof.

Also, I didn't say they shouldn't have bothered with the ME... I just said it shouldn't have been the Chosen One for a radical rewriting, given other areas have been problematic for a longer time

SI have never shied away from a challenge when it presents itself, and if several areas of the game reach a point where a rewrite is the best option at the same time, they'll take that challenge in hand and go for it. The only reason FM12's match engine got minimum development is because of the size of the rewrite needed to allow the engine to progress further. It was either keep hacking away at a limited engine that was skirting around its limits or throw it out and start again. So technically, last year's game was when the ME became the chosen one.

[Ackter]

Petty, petty, petty response and it can sit here.

As I said, the moderation team would be far better to stay out of this thread from the outset and listen to its community

No. And please, shut up.

[Kriss]

As I said, the moderation team would be far better to stay out of this thread from the outset and listen to its community

It's not our community, it's SI's and we are part of it and our comments as FM players have the same validity as anybody elses.

[Ackter]

My brother said that most depressing fact about FM and game industry is that it is best game by far.

So doesn't that tell you something about the quality of SI's achievements when even the mighty EA can't even get close to them?

So what has prevented AI team from overhauling transfer AI for so log?

They've been developing it each year, but it's clearly it's reached its limits imo and hopefully is next in line for a revolution, along with team-building AI.

[Ackter]

It's not our community, it's SI's and we are part of it and our comments as FM players have the same validity as anybody elses.

I preferred the way I said it.

[Kriss]

I couldn't possibly be so rude

[Ackter]

You liar

[Wiitastic]

good lord, another knocking SI thread. A new 1 every day. IMO nothing wrong with FM13. Successful on release day and still is, and so have I before and after every released patch. No game ever in the world is ever 110% perfect on release day and if anyone says it is, then quite frankly they are talking utter lies.

[Ackter]

good lord, another knocking SI thread. A new 1 every day. IMO nothing wrong with FM13. Successful on release day and still is, and so have I before and after every released patch. No game ever in the world is ever 110% perfect on release day and if anyone says it is, then quite frankly they are talking utter lies.

There's definitely things wrong with FM13, it's just people are very quick to reach for the hyperbole cannon.