How many people will be buying FM on release day in future?

[Svenc]

you don't buy a football game that is far from the football you see all the time then say "it's just a game" do you?

Apparently millions of FIFA players can do so easily and have no qualms about it whatsoever. For twenty years and counting.

As much as I hate to say it, as I appreciate how open PaulC went on about it: It would have probably been in SI's best interest if he didn't admit how the inclusion of the reworked ME was decided upon way into FM 2013's development cycle, and how he knew that said inclusion would have it's trade-offs as well as benefits (in particular as that offered a stark contrast to the overly enthusiastic tone in Mile's video blogs.) It may have been obvious to any sensible human being that the ME, or the entire game, for that matter, has always been a work in progress. But by being so open this was being blown way out of proportion compared to other previous releases that equally faced balancing problems, but which were communicated differently.

[TSH]

-"No game has ever been released bug free"

-"But many games have been released without major gameplay bugs, like FM"

-"No game has ever been released bug free"

-"SI released a demo so why do you complain?"

-"But the demo can't possibly show all the ME faults, it's duration is too small"

-"SI released a demo so why do you complain?"

-"If you don't want to help SI with the bugs, why complain?"

-"But it's not my job to help them, my job is to pay them and enjoy, as the box says, a simulation."

-"If you don't want to help SI with the bugs, why complain?"

-"Why do you complain about the ME when you can use these shouts + sliders + indivisual instructions to make the team press?

-"Because it should be much simpler?"

-"Why do you complain about the ME when you can use these shouts + sliders + indivisual instructions to make the team press?

And the sad, pathetic truth about people who complain is this:

-"I won't buy another FM on release day, ever again!"

And then, as an idiot customer, goes and buys it. And then he complains again, he receives the same answers from the FM defenders and the cycle continues. On and on.

Who's to blame? SI or the customer in the end, I wonder?

[sirgiorgio]

Sorry, but got to pick up on that. You do know you are saying here that SI put bugs into the game deliberately? That they put the bugs in on purpose? If that is your point of view would you mind sharing with us as to why you think they would do that, what sort of commercial benefit it would have for SI to deliberately bug their own game.

I'm sorry, I'll rephrase: They took a risk in realising a match engine which was "Definitely in beta, and yes, to a point in release the ME is rougher around the edges. We know defender reactions and keeper handling in particular are still needing improvements and we are committed to that as ever as well as the other genuine issues raised in this thread and the bugs forum. ".

The post I was answering to rightly stated that there aren't bug-free programs. But this is not the point. If they took a risk in releasing etc. they don't seem very concerned about possible bugs. Quite the opposite, they are confident (and I am too) that they'll fix every bug sooner or later.

To return in topic, sooner or later is not day one.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/324243-*Official*-Football-Manager-2013-Constructive-non-ME-Feedback-Thread?p=8257449&viewfull=1#post8257449

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_release#Beta

[ScotchWhisky]

What?

Not being updated doesn't mean there wasn't bugs in the old games. Major logical crevasse there.

Also, you can record things from games and upload them to youtube, even retrospectively.

I never said there were bug free games. Maybe my mistake was saying "virtually" instead of "mostly" bug free (I actually said mostly in my first post). I also said in my first post that either they were released mostly bug free or they flopped. I did not say all games were mostly bug free. Many games were loaded with bugs and they did just that. They flopped.

That was never the case, old NES/SNES/Mastersystem/Megadrive games were bugged, they just never got updated. There are major bugs in games like Mario 3 if you go looking for them, but back then there were no games forums to go on and read about them, and since people did not go looking for them to report, they were not noticed, and even if they were noticed, no one cared really. Now a days i can type Football Manager 13 into Google and read every single bug the game has and then go looking for them in game 1 at a time. We just live in a different place now a days where it has become easier and more common to complain to software developers.

Although I am sure there were some bugs in Mario 3 (I cannot think of any at this particular moment, other than the fact that in level 1-3, I think it was, you can get stuck in this area of bricks if you were small and the turtle shell broke them the wrong way), but none of them really affected the overall gameplay. Think back to Mario 1. The Minus World is a major bug, but it's not really that big of a deal because it only affects gameplay if you're looking for it. Having the newspaper say your team is a heavy favorite then going into the pep talk and seeing options as if you are a heavy underdog (this happens to me a lot). Well, that is a major bug that can majorly affect game play.

Also, I will stress my point once again. My biggest problem with this is being told that the game is purposely a work in progress. I paid for a fully released game. It didn't say anything about buying a beta version. The idea that this was an unfinished version never crossed my mind until Kris made this unfortunate choice of words:

A mature and sensible approach imo, especially as this release isn't finished by any means yet.

I don't know if Kris is an actual employee there or if he is just a moderator, but he still represents the company in some way so I have to take it from him that his words are the true state of this game. That is disappointing and really makes me wish I had simply complained about my '11 anti-piracy kicking in after two years of not playing rather than buying a whole new version.

[Herbert Fandel]

You are comparing the reality with the ideal. It is only a work in progress because they are still making it better. If they had released it and then not kept working on it would this have satiated you, at least then it would be 'finished' and you could be happy. Its not like they have some good version of the ME they are holding back on releasing just to spite you. Most companies would probably release it as a "ME DLC Pack". They got the game as good as they could, and then kept working on it, I'm not sure what more people could ask. By releasing it "unfinished' it just means you get to play it for longer, there is no logical way by which not releasing it could have led to them making it 'perfect' faster.

[haunted1234]

it all comes down to which cycle you like better

1) Buy FM in late March for like 1/3 original price, get all the patches and play.. stay mentally strong in november when new FM comes out till next march!

2) Buy FM in November for full price, beta-bug-fest till end of March, to start a new safe on the very last patch since you feel all you achieved so far was not the "intended original game", buy new game in November and repeat.

[Jibby123]

-"No game has ever been released bug free"

-"But many games have been released without major gameplay bugs, like FM"

-"No game has ever been released bug free"

-"SI released a demo so why do you complain?"

-"But the demo can't possibly show all the ME faults, it's duration is too small"

-"SI released a demo so why do you complain?"

-"If you don't want to help SI with the bugs, why complain?"

-"But it's not my job to help them, my job is to pay them and enjoy, as the box says, a simulation."

-"If you don't want to help SI with the bugs, why complain?"

-"Why do you complain about the ME when you can use these shouts + sliders + indivisual instructions to make the team press?

-"Because it should be much simpler?"

-"Why do you complain about the ME when you can use these shouts + sliders + indivisual instructions to make the team press?

And the sad, pathetic truth about people who complain is this:

-"I won't buy another FM on release day, ever again!"

And then, as an idiot customer, goes and buys it. And then he complains again, he receives the same answers from the FM defenders and the cycle continues. On and on.

Who's to blame? SI or the customer in the end, I wonder?

This.

Every year the game is released needing patches and rarely the finished article until patch 3. Just buy it after it's been patched 2/3/4 times, but don't whine if you do the same thing every year (buy on release) and expect a different result. That makes you the numpty, not SI??

[RBKalle]

You are comparing the reality with the ideal. It is only a work in progress because they are still making it better. If they had released it and then not kept working on it would this have satiated you, at least then it would be 'finished' and you could be happy. Its not like they have some good version of the ME they are holding back on releasing just to spite you. Most companies would probably release it as a "ME DLC Pack". They got the game as good as they could, and then kept working on it, I'm not sure what more people could ask. By releasing it "unfinished' it just means you get to play it for longer, there is no logical way by which not releasing it could have led to them making it 'perfect' faster.

How so?!

The could, no, SHOULD have pulled the new, WiP, Match Engine from FM13 beta as soon as they realized it would have never been even remotely "ready" to make it to the launch date.

The old FM12 engine was stable enough to keep the customers relatively happy for another year. A year they could have spent to fix and tweak the new engine behind closed doors.

Instead they just went for broke (or though "oh, sod them, let's release it anyway") and kept an admittedly unfinished feature, THE key feature of the game, in the official release.

Should people be happy they paid full price for a glorified beta version??? Are you being serious?! What people "get to play for longer" is a rough and unfinished game. That's the only thing that matters.

Frankly the notion of "neverending work in progress" is a travesty. Plenty of yearly franchises kept on tweaking the existing game engine even when it was clear there wasn't much more they could do while the new engine was being worked on.

Yearly improvement = Yes!

Continuous patching to find a "satisfying balance" = NO!

(the latter should have been reached at the beta stage FFS)

Releasing something which is clearly not ready to hit the shelves is either the haily mary pass of desperate developers or an act of boldness only someone in a position of untouchable superiority can afford to do.

I really don't understand why SEGA/SI went for that, as FMC, new training, revamped GUI and the "improved" tax system (horribly broken itself, but again, another story for another time) were more than enough material to justify the NEW AND IMPROVED sticker on the box and the price tag.

One thing is getting a game with a "reasonable" amount of bugs, most of them being quite obscure or related to extreme situations (the Mario examples).

But getting a game whose core module is still work in progress at a stage where coders themselves are going through a "trial and error" routine to solve glaring issues [crosses, wingers, through balls, defending] and the difference from one patch to the next one is like going from North Pole to Sahara, well...

if that's "acceptable", our standards have really taken a nosedive

[scott MUFC]

Depends if Bradford win the league cup

I enjoy FM13's engine, but a few annoyances that end up forcing my hand in matches are a pain.

[Herbert Fandel]

The old FM12 engine was stable enough to keep the customers relatively happy for another year. A year they could have spent to fix and tweak the new engine behind closed doors.

OK - well if we have reached this point then we could go aroudn forever. Who are you to say FM12 would keep most customers happy? I was sick to death 3 fast strikers up front resulting in one of them regularly scoring ~100 goals a season. Who am I to say it wouldn't have kept others happy? I feel that even the pre-release BETA FM13 was better than FM12, and I am aware others don't. I stand by absolutely everything in my above comment, but I understand you won't.

[RBKalle]

OK - well if we have reached this point then we could go aroudn forever. Who are you to say FM12 would keep most customers happy? I was sick to death 3 fast strikers up front resulting in one of them regularly scoring ~100 goals a season. Who am I to say it wouldn't have kept others happy? I feel that even the pre-release BETA FM13 was better than FM12, and I am aware others don't. I stand by absolutely everything in my above comment, but I understand you won't.

It doesn't even matter what "you" or "I" think as individuals...

Look at the bigger picture.

FM12 engine wasn't state-of-the-art football simulation, that's a fact. But was it "serviceable" enough to fill in for another year while the good people in SI Towers were ironing out the issues the new ME had been showing during alpha/beta testing?

Was there enough new material to justify FM13 purchase even without a new, unfinished, ME?

"I" think there was. "You" may disagree, but do you really think people would have been so p.o.'ed, livid, disappointed and disheartened had they bought FM13, sans the current ME?

P.S. wouldn't have been easier just tweaking the 2012 engine to reduce the effect of pace? Also, isn't the new engine still pace-oriented, just in this case it's a winger+cross+goal routine now?

Neither ME would have been perfect, I just don't see a valid reason to rush things when there was no actual hurry.

To put it very very bluntly: a good portion of the FM fanbase is made of "addicts" who would still buy, play and enjoy a rebranded CM00-01... (and to make it clear, if I weren't cash-strapped, I'd be one of those buying on release day, no questions asked).

So, if the ME wasn't ready, just put it in the fridge and wait another year. THEN go for 3200 promotional videos gloating about how awesome it is.

[haunted1234]

Was there enough new material to justify FM13 purchase even without a new, unfinished, ME?

"I" think there was.

really?

i think the only "features" thats worth mentioning is the classic mode,challange mode and the new network game

but charge full price on things many players dont even use?

to make it quick on the other features

taxes: couldnt care less, doesnt change the way i play the game by any means

new camera angles: worthless if the ME sucks

director of football: worthless guy, only good to "sell or release" players...

tone and voice to media:

managers personal contract negotiation: again couldnt care less

easier to compare players and staff: well done...

[RBKalle]

really?

i think the only "features" thats worth mentioning is the classic mode,challange mode and the new network game

but charge full price on things many players dont even use?

to make it quick on the other features

taxes: couldnt care less, doesnt change the way i play the game by any means

new camera angles: worthless if the ME sucks

director of football: worthless guy, only good to "sell or release" players...

tone and voice to media:

managers personal contract negotiation: again couldnt care less

easier to compare players and staff: well done...

Didn't we have one year (FM2011?) when the only noteworthy addition were the agents?

You may not like/use FMC or Challenges, but you can't deny both constitute a rather big change. For the good or for the bad, it's down to personal opinion, but FMC is basically a new(ish) game itself.

Again, I'm not even talking about "what I, as an individual with his own tastes, ideas and wishes, would have done or wanted for FM13". I'm just trying to analyze from a promotional and strategical standpoint why on earth SI decided to include the new, unfinished, ME into FM13.

And so far I have failed to find a valid reason for that.

As debatable, bugged, cosmetic, secondary or irrelevant all those "big changes" can be, I maintain they could have been considered enough to justify the name FM13. (not because I like them or I think they're good... it's a mere matter of the Changelog being long/fat enough)

After all, as said, we've seen less eventful iterations in FM history, often bordering with Data Update+unofficial x.4 Patch... And let's not even talk about what EA sports and Konami did in many installations of their successful sport franchises...

But since SI have set a decent quality standard for themselves, would a "12.4 + FMC" sort of thing have been received with more hate than this FM13 Rolling Beta?

[haunted1234]

calling the same game with just less options a "big change" is rather questionable

[jimbowan]

I have been playing since CM04 and have loved this game for all those years.

So many years of HUNDREDS of hours of game play EACH YEAR and tons of enjoyment - thankyou for all the hard work SI

I have played many hours of 13, I am enjoying it too. But lets be honest, its an extremely buggy game that steals that enjoyment away from the player constantly. I get on a good role where I am having fun and then BAM! free kick bug, or BAM! you have to change your tactic to battle the terrible ME, or even lately had to come on these forums to find out I had to fire my u18 manager so I could manage the team instead of just taking over like in previous versions.

I love your game SI but not this release, its a shame your Beta tests even let such a version hit the market.

Back to 12 for me, which IMHO was a great release.

[Bliss Seeker]

just sort it out SI. I never buy any of the games on release day as I know they'll be bug ridden (not a dig, just an accepted consequence of such a complex game).

I left this for a while, and bought it last week and although it's potentially amazing, the match engine stuff is just rubbish. The game's like one of those Eastern European girls you see round Stratford these days, you have a look at them form behind and their hair is perfect, they've got a sexy figure and their tight leggings swim up their backsides like a tuna down a stream. But when you get closer, their nose might be a bit crooked and they have puss filled pimples all over their face.

so yea, sort it out SI. I know you can.

[AndyPass]

Against my better judgement I bought the game a couple of days after the release date, and so far I haven't had a save that has gone past a dozen league games in season 1.

Still loving FM12 though!

[Herbert Fandel]

Was there enough new material to justify FM13 purchase even without a new, unfinished, ME?

"I" think there was. "You" may disagree, but do you really think people would have been so p.o.'ed, livid, disappointed and disheartened had they bought FM13, sans the current ME?

P.S. wouldn't have been easier just tweaking the 2012 engine to reduce the effect of pace? Also, isn't the new engine still pace-oriented, just in this case it's a winger+cross+goal routine now?

The new ME is one of my favorite things about FM 13, bugs and all. It has been described plenty on here why the new ME is "better", with the new collision thig being one such example. I would have been more disappointed by FM13 with FM12s engine, as other features are less revolutionary than the ME, which I find enjoyable. At least I feel like I paid for something new, and which will get better, rather than the same old thing.

Just releasing the FM12 ME again would make no sense, as the FM13 engine then wouldn't have been subject to public scrutiny, which it needs to improve. Whether the anguish of the many was this year or next year, whats the difference? I'd rather get it done as soon as possible, i.e. this year.

[milnerpoint]

Also, we had a heap of complaint posts last year along the lines of "I cant believe we are playing on the same ME as last year", people last year were demanding a move forward, infact most people were posting about how SI should have had a new ME ready for last year. Last year people moaned they were being ripped off paying for a new game with an old ME, now people are moaning they would have paid full price for another game with the same ME, how can SI win?

I think the bottom line is you have to accept these forums will ALWAYS be full of complaints, no matter what.

[TSH]

Also, we had a heap of complaint posts last year along the lines of "I cant believe we are playing on the same ME as last year", people last year were demanding a move forward, infact most people were posting about how SI should have had a new ME ready for last year. Last year people moaned they were being ripped off paying for a new game with an old ME, now people are moaning they would have paid full price for another game with the same ME, how can SI win?

I think the bottom line is you have to accept these forums will ALWAYS be full of complaints, no matter what.

No, they won't. Most complaints die out after the third patch, so what you claim is just hyperbole to defend SI and your somehow twisted notion of what an end product should offer to the customer.

And how can SI win? Are you SERIOUSLY asking this kind of question?

Hm... I don't know. How about this crazy notion: Maybe release a game that can actually work on SOME of its important levels instead of an unfinished beta version? People can accept patches but they shouldn't accept a product that plays so differently than what is advertised.

SI and the marketing team (SEGA as well of course) KNOW that they majority of people are not hardcore FM players to actually come in the forums and complain or understand ANY of the major bugs. They can live with 100 people complaining in the forums because their customer base, as every videogame, is comprised of fanboys, casual and players who just don't know enough or give a **** about the many problems. They also have all the copy/paste reviews each year and they are set.

That's what a corporate strategy is because SI and SEGA are companies and they only care about money. That's what companies do and that's fair enough for me. But I will play my role as a customer as they play their role as a company.

[milnerpoint]

The forums are always full of complaints no matter what time of year you look. They never die down after any number of patches. Feel free to prove me wrong on that point if you want.

My point was towards the point that RK would have been happy with last years ME, and he claimed most would have also been happy, all i pointed out was that last year people were not happy for this exact reason, so people dont want the same ME, and they dont want to play on the new one.

There are no real major bugs in FM13, a few ME issues to iron out, but on the whole its been pretty good compared to other years.

[Herbert Fandel]

No, they won't. Most complaints die out after the third patch, so what you claim is just hyperbole to defend SI and your somehow twisted notion of what an end product should offer to the customer.

Hm... I don't know. How about this crazy notion: Maybe release a game that can actually work on SOME of its important levels instead of an unfinished beta version? People can accept patches but they shouldn't accept a product that plays so differently than what is advertised.

.

And there you go. Total hyperbolic nonsense on your part.

[TSH]

There are no real major bugs in FM13, a few ME issues to iron out, but on the whole its been pretty good compared to other years.

Yeah... ok.

[milnerpoint]

Yeah... ok.

Ok enlighten me then. Outwith the ME issues, what major bugs are in FM13?

[Herbert Fandel]

Ok enlighten me then. Outwith the ME issues, what major bugs are in FM13?

Even within the ME, how can one even begin to claim that the admittedly excessive long range shots equate to it not working on even some important levels.

[Kriss]

I really didn't want to close this thread and be accused of censorship but enough is enough, I've warned time and again against going off what the OP asked so that's it.