How many people will be buying FM on release day in future?

[milnerpoint]

Yeh your right lets disreguard anything that might go against your opinion. Afterall why would you trust an unassociated game chart.

The second part sums it up, FM12 didnt represent football any better at all, infact much worse in certain parts, but you were able to win, and win quite easily, so im guessing the very obvious flaws didnt really bother you so much. Afterall we all watch match of the day and see players run right through each other, and see every second corner scored from a near post header.

The forums are no worse than last year, or the year before, or the year before, the feedback threads have about 1 page worth of actual issues, the rest is just ranting and raving from usually the same group of posters, from both sides of the argument. FM13 is not a step backwards from FM12, but it is harder, which makes the hyberbole much worse.

[van_gaal]

I can't see myself buying the game in the near future at all.

Couldn't get into Fm13 at all because it's too slow, heats the processor too much and just generally unplayable.

Lots of convoluted things in the game and the UI is terribly bad.

Might wait a few years before seeing if I'll play the game at all.

I haven't played the game in months. No point, it's too slow.

I have an i7 quad core processor. 8gb Ram and a decent graphics card.

The only slow part about the game is the UI, in the Tactics screen it can take up to 5 seconds or multiple clicks to select a player in position. Or even to just filter the players.

Every other screen is fine in terms of speed.

I'll try again after the next update, probably mid Feb. But I don't hold hopes for it.

I think they've made a disaster of the game and the UI in particular.

you should enable skin chaching

[TCSawyer]

will defo buy on release, pre-order. As long as its available on Steam

[Casual]

Witnessing the same mistakes in every version, particularly in ME is the most frustrating thing about the game because every year it feels like you're playing something made from scratch. The mistakes are so basic and idiotic that I completely understand every man who comes here and criticizes the game, and so should SI.

This version is the example of what not do in the future. Releasing a new game with minor graphical changes, and generally minor functionality changes but at the same time introducing us with hundreds of new/old bugs. A data update with new bugs! I wouldn't be so angry if it was a data update with no major bugs, a realistic football simulation. Then I could overlook the lack of major new features, and say this game is so playable and I don't care if its the same as last year, the results are realistic, the transfers are realistic, and the game already has a lot of amazing things from before. I'd be satisfied.

But to have just a few new player animations that only a hawk eye can see and constantly regress in playability...that's beyond cheeky to me. That seems to me like behaviour of a company who has monopole in this genre and just doesn't care or doesn't try enough to make a real progress and bring the game we love to a new level. Like in FM's player training, a red arrow down for progress!

I would love if a new serious managerial game would appear on the market, not because I'd wanna play it but because it seems like the only thing that could motivate SI to be better than this. Our pleas and constructive criticism we give obviously don't because in the end you will always have sheep who will be humble and satisfied with whatever they get as long as it's not as bad as goalkeepers scoring 5 goals per match. I'm sorry but I'm watching football and playing managerial games for far too long to be satisfied with that!

[milnerpoint]

So bascially, if you enjoy this game your a sheep/idiot? No other way about it with you lot?

[Neil Brock]

A new manager game on the market wouldn't help SI's production of Football Manager. We don't need extra motivation to make the game better. The only effect it could potentially have, was if any 'competition' was to take a share of the market from us, we'd sell less, which in turn would mean the company wouldn't have as much money and potentially would lose or have to cut back on certain resources. So it'd be more likely to have a determental effect than a positive one. I think it's quite a common misconception that competition would lead us to improve the game.

[cynet]

Every PC game or even console game has bugs and flaws in it after general release, it's been like that since the early birth of PC gaming, it's a fact.

Usually companies do release a patch within a week or two as they are on a time scale from the publisher to release the game on a certain date.

Making no excuses here for FM13 though as this release has been a major hitch with regards to the match engine which is one of the major works of the game. SI know from experience that getting the match engine to a accurate playing standard takes more than 12 months and in this case it seems that the game wasn't ready for this working progress match engine.

Will skip FM13, as no disrespects to Paul C it will take a while to get this to a quality we all expect, but lets not take it away that this is a clever game and have no doubts SI will work even harder to turn this game round.

[Kriss]

Either get back on topic as per the OP or this gets closed, just knew it would turn into an alternative feedback thread.

[kingpug]

Yeh your right lets disreguard anything that might go against your opinion. Afterall why would you trust an unassociated game chart.

The second part sums it up, FM12 didnt represent football any better at all, infact much worse in certain parts, but you were able to win, and win quite easily, so im guessing the very obvious flaws didnt really bother you so much. Afterall we all watch match of the day and see players run right through each other, and see every second corner scored from a near post header.

The forums are no worse than last year, or the year before, or the year before, the feedback threads have about 1 page worth of actual issues, the rest is just ranting and raving from usually the same group of posters, from both sides of the argument. FM13 is not a step backwards from FM12, but it is harder, which makes the hyberbole much worse.

So that chart proves FM is the most played PC game at the moment? a chart that shows the expansion of the biggest game in the world behind a farming simulator and you act like that chart is important?

Who said winning isn't as easy in FM13? I still won everything in my first season and I've seen people getting to the CL final with AJAX, I mean come on, how the **** do you get to the CL final with AJAX in your FIRST season then tell me this game is harder? I've seen ST Mirren win the SPL in the FIRST season then make it into the CL GROUP STAGE, again how is this the definition of hard? ST Mirren for crying out loud, in the champions league.

Aye well next time I'm watching MOTD and see Seamus Coleman picking the ball up at his own corner flag then running the entire length of the pitch, skinning 6 players then cutting inside, running into the box and smashing it into the back of the net then I'll agree with you that this FM13 is as real as it gets, until then I beg to differ.

Next time I see a cross being whipped in only for David de Gea to stand there and admire how lovely and round the ball is while Michu nips in and sticks it in the back of the net I'll think SI done a fantastic job replicating football.

This isn't stuff that happens rarely, this is just two of the biggest crap takes I see happening on a game by game basis but then again, it's either me being crap, my team being crap or my tactics being crap because it certainly isn't the ME, after all it's perfect.

You have to laugh though, how many patches we at yet the game is 4 months old, now tell me something, if FM isn't as broken as a lot of people are implying why all the patches?

[milnerpoint]

Who said it was the most played game?! You originally asked how many units it had sold, we dont get that info, what we do get is a games chart, and FM13 has topped it for months, which means every month it outsells the other games, i never said anything about how many people are playing it right now. Thats where Herbert comes in with his Steam stats.

Also i never said this ME is exactly like real life, i said FM12 did not look more like real life football, players ran through other players like they did not exist, centre backs could end up as top goal scorers for the season because of a corner exploit.

Call of Duty 2 has had 4 "updates" since its release, Halo 4 has had about the same and both of these are on consols, where everyone is using the exact same hardware, bascially any game you find will get patched several times, usually quite early on as they come across system clashes and other problems. FM is not alone in this respect.

No one has ever said this game is perfect, but it would seem your either allowed to hate the game, or you must find it 100% perfect, there is no middle ground with people like yourself.

[kingpug]

Who said it was the most played game?! You originally asked how many units it had sold, we dont get that info, what we do get is a games chart, and FM13 has topped it for months, which means every month it outsells the other games, i never said anything about how many people are playing it right now. Thats where Herbert comes in with his Steam stats.

Also i never said this ME is exactly like real life, i said FM12 did not look more like real life football, players ran through other players like they did not exist, centre backs could end up as top goal scorers for the season because of a corner exploit.

Call of Duty 2 has had 4 "updates" since its release, Halo 4 has had about the same and both of these are on consols, where everyone is using the exact same hardware, bascially any game you find will get patched several times, usually quite early on as they come across system clashes and other problems. FM is not alone in this respect.

No one has ever said this game is perfect, but it would seem your either allowed to hate the game, or you must find it 100% perfect, there is no middle ground with people like yourself.

Aye and as I said a chart where 4 of the 10 are The Sims and the other is a farming simulator proves nothing what so ever.

FM12 might not have been perfect but you could still enjoy it a bit more and sure it had flaws but not as gaping as FM13 and you can't say an engine was bad because of an exploit lol that's ludicrous and most of the updates on consoles are small, these FM ones have been pretty big and sometimes caused more harm than good and I honest to god can't remember an FM where it got this many patches.

Anyway back to topic, even though I got banned for saying I would pirate the game I'll probably still buy the next version in the hopes every penny helps SI make it a better game, I've had every FM since 07 or something and as much as I detest FM13 I'm not going to jump ship after one dodgy release.

[Kriss]

Anyway back to topic, even though I got banned for saying I would pirate the game I'll probably still buy the next version in the hopes every penny helps SI make it a better game, I've had every FM since 07 or something and as much as I detest FM13 I'm not going to jump ship after one dodgy release.

A mature and sensible approach imo, especially as this release isn't finished by any means yet.

[PinkYoshi]

Either get back on topic as per the OP or this gets closed, just knew it would turn into an alternative feedback thread.

No it turned into people stating their opinions and select few getting mad because those opinions differed from theirs

[Kriss]

No it turned into people stating their opinions and select few getting mad because those opinions differed from theirs

Yeh and that isn't what the thread is supposed to be about, so the warning stands.

[kingpug]

No it turned into people stating their opinions and others getting mad because those opinions differed from theirs

Well mate that's just how these forums work, I remember the days where PES reigned supreme and FIFA fans got pissed off big time and the debates raged on for years, you can say stop all you want but it just isn't going to stop, you get people who swear blind 90% of the problems never happen to them and it's perfect then you get people saying 90% of the bugs happen to them and it's the worst game they've ever played.

A mature and sensible approach imo, especially as this release isn't finished by any means yet.

Well thing is, hasn't FM always followed the same approach where it gets released and about 3-5 patches later they move on to the next version? or will FM13 get more patches to make the ME even better for future releases or will they just stop after 2 more, work on the ME some more and people waiting 5-6 months just to enjoy FM13 will end up just waiting for 14, if FM was a game released every few years then I'd see the point but it's one released every 12 months roughly so if you're having to wait 6 months before the major flaws are ironed out that pretty much leaves 6 months before the next version is out then it's back to square one isn't it?

I think an FM every 2 years is sufficient if updated every 3-6 months for transfers and the likes but to me it's like 12 months for every FM then another 2-4 months before a lot of people consider it playable if you catch my drift.

Only so much you can do for a football management game I'd much rather it went down the MMO subscription route than carry on being a yearly release.

[Casual]

So bascially, if you enjoy this game your a sheep/idiot? No other way about it with you lot?

You are not a sheep if you enjoy the game, you are a sheep if you blindly & fiercely defend it like many of you do here. That's the worst thing you can do. Your pats on the back don't help no one. People saying that they are satisfied with game that "looks" like football, people satisfied when there are no bugs goalkeepers running to the center of the pitch with the ball......That's good enough for you?!? After all the arguments are spent it always ends up with comments like "Well, it's just a game", "Dont buy it then/buy it in february then!", "Look at the charts" and rubbish like that. So who is more passionate for the game, people who criticize it and want to make it better because it's been a part of their life for the last 15 years or people who say "It's just a game" ? To me it has never been just a game, and I'm sure it's the same with many others who share my opinion. And if something is a part of your life for that long, it's only natural to want that to improve.

If you are satisfied with getting the same on your plate every year for the money you pay, with the same bugs and problems and not being able to play it untill it's patched 5 months later than that's your easily impressed personality that obviously the majority of people here don't share. People are arguing with everyone who writes something constructive and criticizes the game which is madness! I know there are malicious comments made as well, but even them shouldn't be answered and attacked likke that because their frustration is something that must be understood. It's the years of repeating the same story that brings these reactions, it's not FM 2013 by itself. If it was the case THIS YEAR, I'd understand you coming here and defending it, but things happening over and over again just bring you down, people who have been playing every release are tired of seeing the same problems, the same "update" strategy and no real progress in solving the situation. I guess a lot of people in SI knows this in their heart, but maybe there are a few stubborn ones who make the calls and say F-THEM, we've been doing this for years, we have the sales, we don't care about leisured forum maniacs. But that opinion can prove to be the slipping stone when because I have the feeling that more and more people are getting fed up, and if a competition would appear it certainly would cost them some money.

[stevereay]

No more release day purchases for me. Every version has had to be patched to be perfected and this is usually around the feb/mar time. Some versions have been worse than others and FM13 is certainly not the worst but its not far from it. I've managed 5 seasons in 3 months. On every other version I'd be way past that by now. Not sure whether it is purely the ME holding me back but the enjoyment is certainly not there this time around and i've been playing CM/FM since the very first version.

In future its Mar time for me if the game gets good ratings and I'll get a year out of it from there. If not I'll play an older version. Shiny new features don't cut it anymore its the ME where you get the thrill. An dIn the 5 seasons I've had I've built a great side and won every trophy going its just doesn't thrill me like it used to.

[Kriss]

Positively the last warning before I close this, the OP asked you to say whether or not you'll buy on release and why, nothing more.

All this discussion is just regurgitating what's in the feedback threads.

[Herbert Fandel]

I have the feeling that more and more people are getting fed up, and if a competition would appear it certainly would cost them some money.

Imagine if EA sports made a management game, wouldn't that be great? I mean obviously making a perfect ME is so easy that it is only laziness and complacency that is stopping them from doing so, so I'm sure EA could just easily one and release it.

edit- sorry I was typing this before kriss posted!

[milnerpoint]

You are not a sheep if you enjoy the game, you are a sheep if you blindly & fiercely defend it like many of you do here. That's the worst thing you can do. Your pats on the back don't help no one. People saying that they are satisfied with game that "looks" like football, people satisfied when there are no bugs goalkeepers running to the center of the pitch with the ball......That's good enough for you?!? After all the arguments are spent it always ends up with comments like "Well, it's just a game", "Dont buy it then/buy it in february then!", "Look at the charts" and rubbish like that. So who is more passionate for the game, people who criticize it and want to make it better because it's been a part of their life for the last 15 years or people who say "It's just a game" ? To me it has never been just a game, and I'm sure it's the same with many others who share my opinion. And if something is a part of your life for that long, it's only natural to want that to improve.

If you are satisfied with getting the same on your plate every year for the money you pay, with the same bugs and problems and not being able to play it untill it's patched 5 months later than that's your easily impressed personality that obviously the majority of people here don't share. People are arguing with everyone who writes something constructive and criticizes the game which is madness! I know there are malicious comments made as well, but even them shouldn't be answered and attacked likke that because their frustration is something that must be understood. It's the years of repeating the same story that brings these reactions, it's not FM 2013 by itself. If it was the case THIS YEAR, I'd understand you coming here and defending it, but things happening over and over again just bring you down, people who have been playing every release are tired of seeing the same problems, the same "update" strategy and no real progress in solving the situation. I guess a lot of people in SI knows this in their heart, but maybe there are a few stubborn ones who make the calls and say F-THEM, we've been doing this for years, we have the sales, we don't care about leisured forum maniacs. But that opinion can prove to be the slipping stone when because I have the feeling that more and more people are getting fed up, and if a competition would appear it certainly would cost them some money.

FFS there is not one single poster who has said there are no issues with FM13. Especially not me, but i dont think its the train wreck some of you make out, is that really so difficult to understand? Why must it be you must be smart enough to hate the game, or your nothing more than a sheep because you enjoy it? Its doing my head in having my words twisted constantly just so it ties in with the assumptions of some people.

Its also insulting to say my opinion only comes because im easily pleased, i put down COD2 in a week because it didnt come up to my easy to meet standards. My opinion is as it is because i enjoy the game, no one has the right to insult me because i enjoy the game.

This is just a game, its nothing more, its a £30 piece of software you buy, it doesn affect your life (except adversley if you have a g/f), it doesnt break the bank to buy. Its nothing more than something to play, and never will be anything more, even if you have played every version ever released.

Edit - sorry Kriss.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Before you close this thread, could you clear up something about some of the voters in the poll: is that right, mods and SI employees don't get a free copy of the game?

[davidbowie]

Positively the last warning before I close this, the OP asked you to say whether or not you'll buy on release and why, nothing more.

All this discussion is just regurgitating what's in the feedback threads.

Oh look, the mods protecting SI from legitimate criticism. Big shocker.

[Kriss]

I'm not closing the thread, provided people stick more or less to the point there are other threads specifically for the discussions people are repeating here.

[YKW]

A new manager game on the market wouldn't help SI's production of Football Manager. We don't need extra motivation to make the game better. The only effect it could potentially have, was if any 'competition' was to take a share of the market from us, we'd sell less, which in turn would mean the company wouldn't have as much money and potentially would lose or have to cut back on certain resources. So it'd be more likely to have a determental effect than a positive one. I think it's quite a common misconception that competition would lead us to improve the game.

I have to respectfully disagree with this, especially the "more likely to have a detrimental effect part." To use a comparison most people here will relate to, just consider the state of FIFA before PES got big. FIFA was undoubtedly the best football game, which provided people with hours of fun, and pretty much everyone bought it. The second PES came out, long term FIFA players were looking at their game and thinking "how has it been being done this way for so long." Don't forget that FIFA stole PES' control scheme - before PES sprint was TRIANGLE! Triangle! meaning unless you had two thumbs you couldn't sprint and shoot/pass at the same time. And yet sprint being triangle seemed good, and was part of the market leader until a new way of doing things came out. Now it seems ridiculous to think of the sprint button being anything other than a shoulder button. (while we are on the topic of classic football game controls, I have to spare a mention to the heroic Olympic Soccer, which feature a dedicated 'overhead kick' button, which could be used at any time, even when the ball was on the ground )

You can't anticipate innovation. Your post has a sort of "everything has already been invented" vibe to it, and you guys at SI (and game makers in general) deserve more credit than this.

As well as playing CM/FM for almost 20 years I have also dabbled in TCM/FIFA manager, of which I've played a decent amount. I actually think there is already evidence of this game helping to improve FM (or the management genre in general.) For instance, a great addition this year is the staff roles, and this is a feature that was in Fifa Manager 12, implemented in almost exactly the same way. I'm not suggesting that the feature was "copied" (mainly because of the negative connotations that come with the word), but I do think it is fair to say that if it wasn't for competition to FM, then maybe we wouldn't have got the staff roles feature this year.

So i think that the belief that competition would help improve the game is far, far from a misconception. That said, FM has improved incredibly over the last 20 years with no serious competition, so it would be equally foolish to suggest that competition "was desperately needed," as much as new ideas and directions are needed in the genre in general.

[Wolvostoner]

More for me its the fact I pre-order for a "special" price, ie £29.00, then they never actually sell it for £39.00, and then come to a steam sale it goes down to £17.00 and soon enough it will be only a tenner.

That just annoys me that they seem to cash in on the hardcore, and then put the price down once we have all paid top whack.

Thats my thoughts anyways. Saying that I dont know if I could stand to be around my mates for the first couple of months and them telling me all about the new FM, and I would like to think that its the same for alot of people on this forum, if your in a group of friends who all play FM, you dont want to be late to the party.

[Jibby123]

You are not a sheep if you enjoy the game, you are a sheep if you blindly & fiercely defend it like many of you do here. That's the worst thing you can do. Your pats on the back don't help no one. People saying that they are satisfied with game that "looks" like football, people satisfied when there are no bugs goalkeepers running to the center of the pitch with the ball......That's good enough for you?!? After all the arguments are spent it always ends up with comments like "Well, it's just a game", "Dont buy it then/buy it in february then!", "Look at the charts" and rubbish like that. So who is more passionate for the game, people who criticize it and want to make it better because it's been a part of their life for the last 15 years or people who say "It's just a game" ? To me it has never been just a game, and I'm sure it's the same with many others who share my opinion. And if something is a part of your life for that long, it's only natural to want that to improve.

If you are satisfied with getting the same on your plate every year for the money you pay, with the same bugs and problems and not being able to play it untill it's patched 5 months later than that's your easily impressed personality that obviously the majority of people here don't share. People are arguing with everyone who writes something constructive and criticizes the game which is madness! I know there are malicious comments made as well, but even them shouldn't be answered and attacked likke that because their frustration is something that must be understood. It's the years of repeating the same story that brings these reactions, it's not FM 2013 by itself. If it was the case THIS YEAR, I'd understand you coming here and defending it, but things happening over and over again just bring you down, people who have been playing every release are tired of seeing the same problems, the same "update" strategy and no real progress in solving the situation. I guess a lot of people in SI knows this in their heart, but maybe there are a few stubborn ones who make the calls and say F-THEM, we've been doing this for years, we have the sales, we don't care about leisured forum maniacs. But that opinion can prove to be the slipping stone when because I have the feeling that more and more people are getting fed up, and if a competition would appear it certainly would cost them some money.

I used to think like you to be fair. But in the grand scheme of things, it's not that bad, is it?? Internet forums are easy to say things you'd never say offline (I know ) to somebody, it kind of kicks in "arrogance" pills. I don't think anyone here has said the game is perfect, it's just that different things send different heads in to a spin.

Computer games are released as imperfect, and that's not really cricket if you're paying to be stressed out, but it's just a game.

To put it in to context.....

Almost half the world — over three billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day.

According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty.

Some 1.1 billion people in developing countries have inadequate access to water, and 2.6 billion lack basic sanitation.

1.6 billion people — a quarter of humanity — live without electricity

And other sober pills at.... http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats

And we meltdown here over through balls, far post crosses on a game?? I'm thinking if you have the ability to drip about the 30 quid you spent being imperfect (yet how many of you will easily blow that on your next night out??) on a computer in your warm house with a full belly you won life's lottery anyway, so stop and think.

If FM14 is not for you on release next year give the money to one of SI's charities like "War Child" instead (who I can speak from personal experience do AMAZING work on very little resources), wait for the sales and it being full patched. You really don't have to buy it as soon as it is released. Many whining here won't of course, you and us will be back here tantruming it next year over some imperfection....and the next....and the next and hopefully for many years to come (if SI can keep churning it out....).

Think for a second. It's cleansing and sobering. Nobody forces a game on you. Your choices.

[davehanson]

I have to respectfully disagree with this, especially the "more likely to have a detrimental effect part." To use a comparison most people here will relate to, just consider the state of FIFA before PES got big. FIFA was undoubtedly the best football game, which provided people with hours of fun, and pretty much everyone bought it. The second PES came out, long term FIFA players were looking at their game and thinking "how has it been being done this way for so long." Don't forget that FIFA stole PES' control scheme - before PES sprint was TRIANGLE! Triangle! meaning unless you had two thumbs you couldn't sprint and shoot/pass at the same time. And yet sprint being triangle seemed good, and was part of the market leader until a new way of doing things came out. Now it seems ridiculous to think of the sprint button being anything other than a shoulder button. (while we are on the topic of classic football game controls, I have to spare a mention to the heroic Olympic Soccer, which feature a dedicated 'overhead kick' button, which could be used at any time, even when the ball was on the ground )

You can't anticipate innovation. Your post has a sort of "everything has already been invented" vibe to it, and you guys at SI (and game makers in general) deserve more credit than this.

As well as playing CM/FM for almost 20 years I have also dabbled in TCM/FIFA manager, of which I've played a decent amount. I actually think there is already evidence of this game helping to improve FM (or the management genre in general.) For instance, a great addition this year is the staff roles, and this is a feature that was in Fifa Manager 12, implemented in almost exactly the same way. I'm not suggesting that the feature was "copied" (mainly because of the negative connotations that come with the word), but I do think it is fair to say that if it wasn't for competition to FM, then maybe we wouldn't have got the staff roles feature this year.

So i think that the belief that competition would help improve the game is far, far from a misconception. That said, FM has improved incredibly over the last 20 years with no serious competition, so it would be equally foolish to suggest that competition "was desperately needed," as much as new ideas and directions are needed in the genre in general.

The difference is/was EA had an almost bottom-less pit of money to throw at FIFA, whereas I am not sure a, relatively speaking, small developer like SI do. Okay so SI could 'borrow' some of the better ideas from any rival game that came out, but the bottom line is that any other management game on the market that is a serious competition is going to take money, and therefore potentially, jobs away from SI and make the game take longer to develop etc.

[ScotchWhisky]

If I do, it will be by coincidence. I consider Football Manager to be like a Madden where an update is only needed once every couple years. I have now bought '09, '11, and '13 versions. The only reason I bought the '13 version is because my '11 version got locked out thanks to the crappy anti-piracy software that was used on that version. Apparently after you log on so many times, you have to re-enter the login information. Unfortunately, I had no clue as to my log-in information or password after close to two years of not playing the game and the anti-piracy company's website had no password or username retrieval tool. Since the game is relatively cheap and was priced at $40 and claimed to have improved the 3d engine, I figured I'd just buy the update. Unfortunately, I don't see anything about this version that improves it greatly from previous versions except that training is a little easier to manage. Of course, I don't follow football in real life except I do watch the world cup, so roster updates, current available players, and teams in proper divisions doesn't mean a whole lot to me like it probably does to many of you. Especially since I always start with a bottom tier team anyways so I think a lot of those players are simply generated anyways.

[RBKalle]

Just for the record, can't we clear up that FIFA Manager isn't developed by EA Sports? They just "rebrand" it, but it's actually developed by Bright Future GmbH (and the core of the game is basically a revamped version of On the Ball/Anstoss, with FIFA database integration).

People can make up all the excuses they want to defend FM, even when a little bit of honesty (like Paul C. himself had the courage of doing) would be much more appreciated and helpful than an overzealous apologetic behaviour (bordering on blind fanboyism).

Keeping on saying "adequate is great, because the rest was awful" will inevitably lead to lower the standards.

It's not even SI's fault because to their credit they have been trying. It's just a matter of debatable development choices/paths, with a touch of conservativism and complacency.

While it's probably true a reasonable competitor wouldn't necessarily lead SI to "make a better game", it could give them a much needed kick in the ass to finally go for a RADICAL CHANGE of a game which, in its core modules, has been unchanged for almost a decade.

Lack of competition hurt the market, because, as said, if a C- game is the only one available, people with grow accustomed to that and will think C is the new B...

P.S. about the "it's not unplayable as long as you can be a football manager" excuse... Sure. Just like you can still drive a sportscar with nerfed engine, smaller tyres and clunky gearbox.

You can't drive the way it was advertised but yeah, as long as it trudges down the street it's "drivable".

Games are expected to be "imperfect" on release day, but apparently FM13 has gone public as a glorified beta which has been significantly (and inconsistently?) patched a couple of times, with very hit and miss results.

I mean, if patch 1 was a through ball festival and in patch 2 through balls are rarer than a John Jensen goal, it must mean something...

[TheGull8559]

I will buy on release day like i have with every other FM. I know that no game developer wants to release their game with bugs, but it happens, and it will always continue to happen. So long as SI keep on patching up the game i will always support them simply because there is no other football management game out there that even comes close to what FM and the old CM's offer.

[ScotchWhisky]

A mature and sensible approach imo, especially as this release isn't finished by any means yet.

I don't like this approach and many (if not most these days) companies take this approach when creating games. They rush to release them, release a broken version, then attempt to fix it with patches. I miss the days when games either released mostly bug free or they flopped. Why should someone pay full price for a fully released, unfinished game when they can wait a year and buy the same game, except more complete, for a lesser price?

[Kriss]

I miss the days when games either released mostly bug free

Those days never existed, but then neither did internet forums in the early days

[sirgiorgio]

Those days never existed, but then neither did internet forums in the early days

Once again, I think we're mixing things up.

We all know (I think) it's impossible to build a bug-free software.

FM is not Windows, but it's still a complex piece of software, and SI isn't Microsoft, they don't have thousands of people working for them.

BUT…

They had an outdated, far from perfect match engine which was as "stable" and "final" as it could be. They trashed it, in favour of a new match engine which is admittedly a work in progress. They deliberately introduced new bugs, hoping (without knowing for certain) they could fix them somehow.

Q: When will software houses release a bug-free program?

A: Never.

Q: When will software houses stop selling beta (or even alpha) releases pretending they are fully working and tested?

A: The sooner the better.

[Toney]

Honestly, most people would have been fine (myself included) with 13 having the same old ME while SI took another year to polish it up and actually finish it.

Without the ME, the game is nothing but an 80s text based RPG where decision making comes from flipping a coin.

The big addition this year was FMC for those that couldn't devote as much time to playing the game right (sure, you can assign the assman to most annoying tasks, but even the best one sucks at everything really).

What the people that complain seem to be feeling mostly (again, myself included) is that the game was just not finished, and that we were charged full retail for a beta that won't be ready until months after the initial purchase.

Now, I don't really care about 60 dollars, but you can't put a price on disappointment.

[Q.P.R]

Honestly, most people would have been fine (myself included) with 13 having the same old ME while SI took another year to polish it up and actually finish it.

Without the ME, the game is nothing but an 80s text based RPG where decision making comes from flipping a coin.

The big addition this year was FMC for those that couldn't devote as much time to playing the game right (sure, you can assign the assman to most annoying tasks, but even the best one sucks at everything really).

What the people that complain seem to be feeling mostly (again, myself included) is that the game was just not finished, and that we were charged full retail for a beta that won't be ready until months after the initial purchase.

Now, I don't really care about 60 dollars, but you can't put a price on disappointment.

Spot on . FM2013 M.E is one year too soon ,. if fact we are all beta testers for FM2014 , which we have paid for . Shame on you SI. i just really hope that we all vote with our money , and not buy FM2014 at first chance

[davehanson]

Once again, I think we're mixing things up.

We all know (I think) it's impossible to build a bug-free software.

FM is not Windows, but it's still a complex piece of software, and SI isn't Microsoft, they don't have thousands of people working for them.

BUT…

They had an outdated, far from perfect match engine which was as "stable" and "final" as it could be. They trashed it, in favour of a new match engine which is admittedly a work in progress. They deliberately introduced new bugs, hoping (without knowing for certain) they could fix them somehow.

Q: When will software houses release a bug-free program?

A: Never.

Q: When will software houses stop selling beta (or even alpha) releases pretending they are fully working and tested?

A: The sooner the better.

Sorry, but got to pick up on that. You do know you are saying here that SI put bugs into the game deliberately? That they put the bugs in on purpose? If that is your point of view would you mind sharing with us as to why you think they would do that, what sort of commercial benefit it would have for SI to deliberately bug their own game.

[treble_yell_:-)]

Sorry, but got to pick up on that. You do know you are saying here that SI put bugs into the game deliberately? That they put the bugs in on purpose? If that is your point of view would you mind sharing with us as to why you think they would do that, what sort of commercial benefit it would have for SI to deliberately bug their own game.

You should try reading it again. He is saying that SI released a ME that they knew had issues (some that the previous ME did not) to the public , with a "release now , fix later and hope they don't notice" attitude. Not that I agree with that, but that's what his post said.

On reflection , and after a Christmas break where I played a ton of FM13, I doubt I will buy at launch again (I voted yes on the poll). This year has just been a lesson in frustration , and as a 30yo with children, I have less patience for developers that decide that it's ok to release a product the way 13 was. The post launch support has been ok, and I said in another thread I think FM14 could be one of those classic titles in the series if the ME can be beaten into shape by then.

I also posted in the other thread that outside perception of the game has suffered in recent years , critical and user reviews have dropped YoY since the high of FM10 (users reviews scores have significantly dropped on the aggregation sites) , so the ME change was maybe needed to help stem the downward trend. hopefully 13 is just a blip and we can get back to the standard I'd expect from a FM title...

Just wont be buying it day 1 .

[davehanson]

No, he said as in the bold part. He stated: They deliberately introduced new bugs

Not sure how that can be read any other way

[treble_yell_:-)]

No, he said as in the bold part. He stated: They deliberately introduced new bugs

Not sure how that can be read any other way

Because reading in context is a vital part of reading comprehension ?

[davehanson]

We are going totally off topic here, the question was for the poster, and as you did not post the comment, I seriously doubt you can answer what he meant by that statement, unless you can tell me otherwise?

[Kriss]

Because reading in context is a vital part of reading comprehension ?

Sorry but there's nothing ambiguous about that statement, "deliberately introduced" can only be interpreted in one way.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I'm not closing the thread, provided people stick more or less to the point there are other threads specifically for the discussions people are repeating here.

Is that why you didn't answer my question? My own fault I suppose, the wording does give you opportunity to never answer if you don't close it. Could you tell me anyway, do mods and SI employees receive a free copy of FM?

[milnerpoint]

What has that got to do with the thread?

[Herbert Fandel]

What has that got to do with the thread?

Because obviously they only defend it so blindly because they didn't pay for it! If they had spent their hard earned cash then they would be more able to notice how unplayable the game is...

[milnerpoint]

Because obviously they only defend it so blindly because they didn't pay for it! If they had spent their hard earned cash then they would be more able to notice how unplayable the game is...

Lol, with that guy, your probably right.

[ScotchWhisky]

Those days never existed, but then neither did internet forums in the early days

There have been lots of games in history that have been released virtually bug free. Of course, many of these were on consoles before updating console games was possible. Obviously it's easier working with a console since you don't have to worry about a bajillion different hardware sets. I remember how the big game review sites used to only review the game directly out of the box. That's kind of obsolete now since a lot of games require an internet connection and also require mandatory updates.

I have no major gripes with this game. The 3d engine makes me want to scream sometimes because of the dumb things my players do. Such as the other day when my goal keeper could have easily got a slow rolling ball coming towards the corner post, but insteads decides to wait for it. Then as it rolled right next to the corner post, he attempted to dive for it, completely missed the ball and the opponent came and knocked it in while he was still on the ground. I wish a recorder was included in game to record silly moments like that, but i understand it's all part of the simulation playing out to the predetermined result. Anyways, the game has some bugs, but overall is a very enjoyable experience. I just don't like the philosophy of it being a purposely released work in progress which is what you admitted it is.

[Herbert Fandel]

There have been lots of games in history that have been released virtually bug free. Of course, many of these were on consoles before updating console games was possible. Obviously it's easier working with a console since you don't have to worry about a bajillion different hardware sets. I remember how the big game review sites used to only review the game directly out of the box. That's kind of obsolete now since a lot of games require an internet connection and also require mandatory updates.

I have no major gripes with this game. The 3d engine makes me want to scream sometimes because of the dumb things my players do. Such as the other day when my goal keeper could have easily got a slow rolling ball coming towards the corner post, but insteads decides to wait for it. Then as it rolled right next to the corner post, he attempted to dive for it, completely missed the ball and the opponent came and knocked it in while he was still on the ground. I wish a recorder was included in game to record silly moments like that, but i understand it's all part of the simulation playing out to the predetermined result. Anyways, the game has some bugs, but overall is a very enjoyable experience. I just don't like the philosophy of it being a purposely released work in progress which is what you admitted it is.

What?

Not being updated doesn't mean there wasn't bugs in the old games. Major logical crevasse there.

Also, you can record things from games and upload them to youtube, even retrospectively.

[milnerpoint]

There have been lots of games in history that have been released virtually bug free. Of course, many of these were on consoles before updating console games was possible. Obviously it's easier working with a console since you don't have to worry about a bajillion different hardware sets. I remember how the big game review sites used to only review the game directly out of the box. That's kind of obsolete now since a lot of games require an internet connection and also require mandatory updates.

That was never the case, old NES/SNES/Mastersystem/Megadrive games were bugged, they just never got updated. There are major bugs in games like Mario 3 if you go looking for them, but back then there were no games forums to go on and read about them, and since people did not go looking for them to report, they were not noticed, and even if they were noticed, no one cared really. Now a days i can type Football Manager 13 into Google and read every single bug the game has and then go looking for them in game 1 at a time. We just live in a different place now a days where it has become easier and more common to complain to software developers.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

What has that got to do with the thread?

Because obviously they only defend it so blindly because they didn't pay for it! If they had spent their hard earned cash then they would be more able to notice how unplayable the game is...

Lol, with that guy, you're probably right.

Sorry to interupt your comedy routine, your ignorance just shows what dark place you have your heads firmly jammed. Although it is none of your business, I shall enlighten you in case you decide to make up something that makes you look ridiculous.

I was surprised to see that mods and SI employees bought the game as I vaguely remember reading that free copies were issued to researchers and I had assumed this extended to others connected with the company. So I decided to ask Kriss, who is, unlike yourselves - no matter how much you wish to be - definately in one of those two categories, whether or not they have to. Curious is all. Maybe off topic, in which case I apologise to the OP, but it is linked, which is more than can be said of the three quotes above! (and this makes four, cheers)

Milnerpoint, when will you learn how foolish you look agreeing with someone who is making stuff up. (no matter how similar your paranoia attributes are)

Enjoy your day

that guy

xxx

[Herbert Fandel]

xxx

I wasn't being especially serious, but I'll accept the reprimand nonetheless