Football Manager 2009: Where I have felt let down.

[Matt ex SEGA]

Can't say I agree with any of the criticism in this thread at all...

[Matt ex SEGA]

(See what I did there?)

Good post, Pete. Interesting reading all the way through. It'll be read by SI.

[tomescan]

better interaction between managers. Namely, over the course of your career you should develop hated rivals amongst the coaching ranks, ones that can engage in public wars of words or whatnot, actively trying to impede your progress.

I like this idea. Would love to go on a Rafa 'rant' or do a Joe Kinnear press conference now and again to create the siege mentality vibe...

Me: Which one of you is SI games?

Seriously though, as someone else suggested, an inbuilt tutorial into understanding how to react to what you see in 2d/3d would be good.

[Ediocy]

You gave the game up too easily in my opinion Matt. Should have left it at the first post for a while longer at least.

FM could definitely use with a graphical overhaul I agree. It does not have to mimic FIFA manager's look though as what I feel Stan Petrov did with his suggestion. That said, credit to him for his effort with that suggestion and screenshots. Just something to be done to revolutionise FM's look for the new decade.

Regarding aspects of training, I would like to see more interaction on a weekly or even daily basis too. More information fed to the manager via the inbox about the intensity/type of training and its impact on all your players would be appreciated. Currently, a whole season could go by and the only way of telling that training has had any impact is if I closely monitor each player and track the green and red arrows next to their attributes.

And as for rewards, I think others have already touched on most of what can be said about the current rewards system in place within the game. It is simply not satisfying enough. There should be more little tidbits thrown in as you piece together a glittering career. Players, present and former, could send personal messages to you to congratulate you on titles won, or even after securing victories in important matches.

[Stevicus]

In my honest opinion, Peter's Thread is the best i have seen since I have joined up, he not only pointed out flaws, but did it constructively. He has not critisised the game but he has pointed out improvement areas and places that needd some attention. Overall a fantastic post, and im sure everything there will be featured in some near future FM games.

Also Stan petrov has done some fantastic work, and his ideas and suggestions should at least be considered, if he can make a fantastic contribution like that, im sure he can make other contributions for future games, it is the first time I have seen a thread that suggests graphical improvements as well as providing some visual suggestions, and i would fully back these plans to see them in future games.

Great work guys:thup:

[SammyBoy666]

I was in your boat too mate, I posted a thread a while back now praising the efforts of WWFAN, a user/admin guy who posted the TT&F (SEARCH FOR THIS MATE) it helped me no end and you don;t have to read it all to learn hwo to play the game. I couldnt string 2 wins together with anyone and when I utilised it, I won the German 2nd Div and reached all kinds of goals/targets. It was a truly wonderful game and I'm now beginning my Fulham assault on the Prem.

Please don;t give up mate, you will reach the promised land!!

[Bigwig]

Might as well add my tuppence on the points raised…

The look and feel

I don’t really have a problem with this but I’m using a skin so perhaps that’s why. What I would like in future versions is a simple to use ‘make your own skin’ toolkit where you can move buttons round to suit your preferences. Sometimes I’ll find a skin I really like but there’s a minor problem which makes it unusable for me.

Training

I’m old enough to remember when training was introduced to the series but it’s never been quite right. I once had a master plan to set up loads of different schedules to maximise attributes for players but it all fell apart because too many attributes are linked to each other. For example, I had a player with 15 for corner taking so I wanted to try and make that a bit better so stuck him on intensive training for that area but also found it worked on free kick taking and penalties, none of which I was interested in as they were pretty low to start with and I didn’t see the point. As it stands I’ve left everyone on general for the past 3 versions of FM until a proper training system can be programmed.

Set pieces

I can understand why we can’t micro-manage set-pieces because of the chance of exploiting weaknesses in the ME, but I still think we should have a bit more variation than we have now. A couple of annoyances with the current system…

I have someone with good long shots and likes to shoot form distance as a ppm so set him to stand with taker, with the obvious idea being to play a side pass to him followed by a long-range effort on goal. However, despite doing this I very rarely see it happen and there’ll either be a cross / shot on goal from the free kick taker, or a side pass to the player who then passes it back / sidewards / back to my own keeper 70 yards away.

Tactics

I won’t go on about this since it’s already been done to death. Only thing I’ll add is that this is the most I’ve noticed people’s dissatisfaction with the tactical module but it’s also the most acknowledgement I’ve seen from SI that it needs ot be worked on. Let’s hope to see something special for FM2010 as atm it’s THE big thing that needs to be developed.

Career game

Totally agree. I think the furthest I’ve managed is 3 seasons before I start again.

[zoopaloola]

I agree with the OP, particularly regarding long term save incentive. There really seems to be very little reward for success and loyalty in the game, and although you could argue that that's just football I would disagree. I have had several saves where I've eclipsed the achievements of any manager past or present and then after one bad season (finishing 4th...) only to get the boot. If you're managing several of the bigger clubs in Europe it is impossible to get even on to favoured personnel nevermind icon or legend status which is also an annoyance but will no doubt be fixed for fm2010 as it seems to have now been recognised as a bug.

I would also be very much in favour of the statue of you being built type idea as well, providing you have done enough to warrent it or even getting a knighthood (not that I could become a sir as I'm not British!) but this sort of thing gives the gamer a much greater sense of achievement. To some extent this is in the game when you get a stadium named after you but frankly this is pretty ridiculous, can anyone think of a stand let alone a stadium that has been named after a teams current manager? In real life, this is usually done after a player/coach have either long retired or left the club or most commonly, after they have died, not while they are still managing the club whilst still in their late thirties as I've seen happen in my games.

Other ways to improve this would be to have testimonials, why we still don't have testimonials in a football manager simulation where we can choose the length of the pitch is beyond me. It would be really very easy to implement as I have stated before on these forums and would be a good way to give a player some sort of recognition for years of good service.

There will hopefully be better relationship building possibilities in future games as well, where you can build genuine rivalries and friendships with players and staff in the game. As I have stated before you should be able to build up an in game friendship/rivalry to the point that a player/coach with appear in your favoured personnel or the hidden disliked personnel.

Anyway, yes the long term save appeal can be greatly (and in my opinion quite easily) improved for fm2010 so hopefully SI are paying attention to this and the other valid points made in this thread.

[Katarian]

Training:

Or should I say the lack of it? The traininf system in Football Manager has always been ridiculously vague. The sliders just don't tell me anything and I always leave it alone as it doesn't have as much as an impact than it should. I feel, why some might say it is 'gimmicky', that you should be given a table with each day of the week and a 'morning and afternoon' slot. In these slots, you should be able to pick a focus that would normally be relevant for that position. It would be so that I could put my strikers focus on one-on-ones as my strikers normally miss these. It would give a better chance for me to react to what is happening on the pitch and improve aspects of my play where I am failing.

Before the franchise became FM training did have morning/afternoon slots and loads of different things you could slot into them, training matches, sprints, etc.. I really liked it, but the problem with it is that the underlying training was almost exactly the same as the current version. So if you did a sprint training session it had the same effect as moving the aerobic slider up one notch does in the current version, it looked brilliant in theory but was in practise even more confusing then the current sliders. The training definately needs to at least be broken down into more categories, it is infuriating having to train penalty takers on the set pieces category and 'wasting' PA on improving long throws and set pieces. I do currently have schedules set up for various different positions, but much more targeted training to try and reduce weaknesses in some players games would be great, i.e. a defender with poor heading could have a targeted training schedule to work on his heading without having to train all those other stats that ball control (off the top of my head that is the heading category) improves e.g. dribbling.

[peter-evo]

(See what I did there?)

Good post, Pete. Interesting reading all the way through. It'll be read by SI.

Use the edit function next time

A few observations from what people have made.

Katarian - Training: I see what you are saying in a way but surely if I did a 'sprints training session' then the whole session would be based on sprints and not on other qualities that I may not nescessarily want to increase. Making slots would let me focus on areas that I feel need improving or areas which could benefit the way my team play ie. pace.

wwfan - Training: I agree, training matches would be fantastic and, in theory, I should be able to set my team to play at my tactics and it would let me see where I am going wrong much earlier; like it would for a real manager.

wwfan - Player Development: I see what you mean, but some of the greatest players (Andy Cole) have not been able to play at massive clubs for their whole career. It may well be the inability for the AI Manager to recognise youth talent, but either way, it is a problem and I imagine that SI know about it.

Stevie_J: Thanks for your comments and I agree that Stan's work is great.

Zoopaloola: I agree entirely about the relationship building as there are some pretty famous relationships in football; both friendly and unfriendly. To be able to build a relationship like Fergie and Benitez and rant and argue with each other would be fantastic and would help fire players up. Also, building a relationship like Steve Bruce and Bryan Robson would be great and transfers with their players would benefit.

Again, thanks for all the feedback and I hope this isn't the end of the discussion.

[Steboyuk]

Agree with everything said. good post.

[Katarian]

Katarian - Training: I see what you are saying in a way but surely if I did a 'sprints training session' then the whole session would be based on sprints and not on other qualities that I may not nescessarily want to increase. Making slots would let me focus on areas that I feel need improving or areas which could benefit the way my team play ie. pace.

That's the way it should work. I was describing the way it actually worked when it was in the game, that's why it was so confusing. I'm going to use the Strength category as I can remember more session names for that category, so a Weights session was just as good for improving your Strength as Cross Country Running was. It was the same underlying training system just with a much more complicated front end that often bore little relation to what was actually happening under the hood. So getting a player to do a heading session could lead to his dribbling improving. As Heading is in the Ball Control training category so the Heading session increased the Ball Control training level that is shown on the training overview, so adding the Heading session to the training schedule confusingly increased other seemingly unrelated stats.

I'd like to see the front end choosing your training session each Morning and Afternoon, but with each session only effecting 2-3 stats. The current system isn't great IMO where Ball Control, Tactics, Aerobic, Set Pieces, and (sort of) the Goalkeeping categories have too many stats in them.

[peter-evo]

That's the way it should work. I was describing the way it actually worked when it was in the game, that's why it was so confusing. I'm going to use the Strength category as I can remember more session names for that category, so a Weights session was just as good for improving your Strength as Cross Country Running was. It was the same underlying training system just with a much more complicated front end that often bore little relation to what was actually happening under the hood. So getting a player to do a heading session could lead to his dribbling improving. As Heading is in the Ball Control training category so the Heading session increased the Ball Control training level that is shown on the training overview, so adding the Heading session to the training schedule confusingly increased other seemingly unrelated stats.

I'd like to see the front end choosing your training session each Morning and Afternoon, but with each session only effecting 2-3 stats. The current system isn't great IMO where Ball Control, Tactics, Aerobic, Set Pieces, and (sort of) the Goalkeeping categories have too many stats in them.

I see.

I completely agree that the training should be made so that you can micromanage it. Im not into too much micromanagement but this section needs it and, for those not into all of that stuff, SI should provide a few defaults so that they can be quickly edited by the user to suit his needs. It is the most under-developed feature in Football Manager and I am sure that SI will delve some time into training in the forseeable future.

[lawd]

May I just add a point.

Team Talks

This is the first time I have left a game feeling baffled after a team talk. For example, I have just played Palmeiras in the Recoupa. First half starts afterme telling them that we can win this. First goal, amazing passing move and finish well chuffed. Equaliser from a penalt daft challenge fair enough, I then go on to score 2 more goals and am playing amazingly, best football my team has played under me against good opposition. Half time and I tell them I am thrilled, as I am, and the second half begins. I am mauled could easily lose 5-3, I cant get my head around it.

Now perhaps this illustrates that maybe more diverstiy could be added for team talks, like "you are playing brilliantly, now go out there and keep it up" or something, just a bit more variation which lets we the manager tell our team exactly how we feel. I mean I undestand I probably shouldn't have said thrilled as I may have induced some complacency, even if I could combine thrilled with don't let your performance drop, or encourage with we can win this, something like that.

[looknohands]

Ah...the dreaded "up by 2 goals at half-time" scenario. I usually just stick with "pleased" as saying "don't let your performance drop" is an almost sure-bet to see your team lose. Agree with need for more diversity in team talks, as sometimes none of the options match what you're wanting to say.

[Ezequiel_Lavezzi]

To be honest, the only reason I have tried any other football manager game is for a change in look and style and for a better visual and audible experience.

After playing FM/CM for over a decade, it had become completely and utterly boring seeing the same graphics, sounds and match engine.

Graphics, well they are still pretty poor. Sounds are still very poor, but I am happy FM went for a 3D match engine, although it needs improvement.

A lot of people are fearful of change or feel too connected to the game they have played for so long.

Some people like FM because its so easy to alt/tab out of and back in and think having a graphically intensive game will probably stall the game completely if trying to tab out.

People need to really understand that the game needs to start appealing to a new market and updating the game to more modern times. We are no longer in the tele-text era - its all about the interweb, graphical representations and advanced graphics as a whole.

If FM were to bring out graphics even slightly similar to Pro Evo Soccer or FIFA, with the current decent match engine and a nice graphical user interface, id be extreemly happy and would probably get hooked.

As the game stands, lack of insipring crowds, poor graphics and general textual feel to the game have me more reading the forums than looking for the continue button in game.

Time for change, time to push the envelope - time to give me goosebumps with great commentary, thundering crowds and chants and hundreds of news paper articles and in game internet pages to read!!!

Lets do something exciting with FM!

[phnompenhandy]

Excellent post peter - all the issues you highlight are key ones that need addressing and I rather feel that they will be for FM10.

The one that has generated the most heat is of course the Tactics/ME/slider issue.

I've just finished reading through this thread, in which the matter is addressed in some detail. Hold your breathe through the vitriol and cut to the information provided by Ov, Millie and wwfan who are involved in the developments.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=112977

(That point is addressed to the general readership of this post; I know peter, wwfan and some others have read it already).

To be honest, the news I read in that thread make me very excited and I'm already awaiting FM10 in great anticipation.

[peter-evo]

I have added a few more points at the bottom for us to discuss

[pires29]

I feel that transfers are still poor on FM, yes there has been improvement but it still nowhere near a working function. I'm in the middle of the summer transfer window on my save and 2 players on my shortlist are also wanted by Inter. These players are both non-EU and Inter have already signed their quota of non-EU players this season so aren't able to get either of them yet for the whole transfer window they have repeatedly kept bidding for them, then when the player accepts their contract offer the transfer gets cancelled.

It's not exactly the biggest problem with the game but niggly little problems like these start to get really annoying when you get the news story that they have tried to sign the same players again every week.

[CrashOverride]

A little late to the party here and formatting isnt my strong point so im not going to try and sumarise into sections. I agree with most of the points contained within this thread and pleased to see it has recogntion from Sega and only hope SI have read it and have chosen not to reply to but to allow us to continue the debate

The transfer system is still incredibly broken and players regularly move for hugley ridiculous sums of money every summer on my long term game. Player longevity has gone to far the other way and I cant imagine Stevie G still turning out for Liverpool at 38 in real life but in FM it seems fine. Tactics can sometimes bear little relation to the ME and the commentary seems to be stuck in about CM 01/02 and the goal celebrations described do not releate to the 3d me in any way shape or form.

Team talks and press confrences are at times disastorous and I have lost count of the number of times I havent wanted to say any of the options for team talks and I gave up on press confrences in about 2010 and havent been back since. Its like being asked questions by a 5 year old often repeative and with no point to the outcome.

Long term games are frustraiting in many ways but my mine gripe is this, I have been at liverpool for 12 years and would probably like to move somewhere else but this is never going to happen. Im going to be Sir Alex and stay there forever. The reasoning behind this is you cant get apply for a new job without the risk of getting sacked, you dont renew your contract and the players/board start sulking. You renew your contract at 185,000 p/m and you arent ever going to be able to get new job because no other club can afford the compensation. Yes I have a stadium named after me but Im not even a favourite. A function SI admit is broke but SI didnt know about it.

I'll no doubt be back for 2010 and have put my name forward for beta testing to try and iron out the things that have annoyed me about 09. I could go on but my Southport save is calling me!

[peter-evo]

A little late to the party here and formatting isnt my strong point so im not going to try and sumarise into sections. I agree with most of the points contained within this thread and pleased to see it has recogntion from Sega and only hope SI have read it and have chosen not to reply to but to allow us to continue the debate

The transfer system is still incredibly broken and players regularly move for hugley ridiculous sums of money every summer on my long term game. Player longevity has gone to far the other way and I cant imagine Stevie G still turning out for Liverpool at 38 in real life but in FM it seems fine. Tactics can sometimes bear little relation to the ME and the commentary seems to be stuck in about CM 01/02 and the goal celebrations described do not releate to the 3d me in any way shape or form.

Team talks and press confrences are at times disastorous and I have lost count of the number of times I havent wanted to say any of the options for team talks and I gave up on press confrences in about 2010 and havent been back since. Its like being asked questions by a 5 year old often repeative and with no point to the outcome.

Long term games are frustraiting in many ways but my mine gripe is this, I have been at liverpool for 12 years and would probably like to move somewhere else but this is never going to happen. Im going to be Sir Alex and stay there forever. The reasoning behind this is you cant get apply for a new job without the risk of getting sacked, you dont renew your contract and the players/board start sulking. You renew your contract at 185,000 p/m and you arent ever going to be able to get new job because no other club can afford the compensation. Yes I have a stadium named after me but Im not even a favourite. A function SI admit is broke but SI didnt know about it.

I'll no doubt be back for 2010 and have put my name forward for beta testing to try and iron out the things that have annoyed me about 09. I could go on but my Southport save is calling me!

Great reply Huw.

I agree with pretty much everything but especially the transfers, which I didn't really pick up on in my opening post.

AI Managers often seem really strangely and act like someone on Fifa. They spend up to £40,000,000 on players which they do not really need and who only get about 10 games in the season. The wonderful pieces of dealing from the AI managers doesn't seem to happen too often and it is really disappointing as you get further into your career.

[Jops14]

i agree with everything in the first post. With regards to training i think CM4 had that down abvsolutely perfectly, it would also be good that once you've set specific sessions for the week, it would show you how much overall training is being focused ion attacking etc.

And i love your idea for set pieces, would feel so much more real.

and as for peoples points about trnasfers, i feel they are unfair on the player, i often have to pay far too much for someone that yes i do need, but if the AI offered they would get the player at half price, and rarely do the Ai bid highly for one of your players.

[looknohands]

Well, I just had the computer offer double the value ($3.6 million, plus 30% future transfer fee for a player worth $1.8million) for one of my players...

too bad they couldn't sign him as they already were at their limit for foreign players! That sort of thing definitely needs to be tweaked...

[SFraser]

I can't say I agree with any of the criticism in the OP and infact disagree with it almost entireally. Without a shadow of a doubt FM09's match engine has made this iteration of Football Manager easilly the best in its history.

The look and feel:

I look at my First Team selection statistics and a I see atleast 60% of the screen is blank with a mere 6 statistics shown, and no way to show any further statistics or relevant data alongside what is currently been shown. If anything this version of FM suffers from a lack of detailed display and certainly a minimal functionality. Compare it to FML and it is clear that FML is light years ahead of FM09 in terms of data presentation.

Player Development:

There is one big issue with Football Manger's player development system is that players can play at top division clubs when, in the real world, they would either be retired or playing at a lower league club.

Only the injury prone, egotists or the disruptive top players retire or are forced out of top clubs before the age of 35 in real life. Many of the best players in football history reached their peaks at the age of 30 and many of the best players in recent football history only achieved recognition in their very late twenties. If the point was worth conceding it would be a flaw inherant in AI programming, but it most certainly is not worth conceding as it is clearly false.

Training:

Or should I say the lack of it?

There is no lack of function in training. I have authored a thread showing clearly the fundamental importance of training and detailing the precise mechanics of the training system for those unable or unwilling to discover the mechanics behind the system themselves.

Tactics and their relation the Match Engine:

Every time I set up my tactic for the first time, I have no idea how my team will play. It often takes 7-8 matches of tweaking before I get the team playing the way I want and that is not realistic at all.

How exactly is it realistic for players to perfectly adapt to a new tactical setup in the first match? Clearly you have never heard of the English national team.

When all is said and done I think you are let down by a lack of instant gratification and a lack of simplicity. It is up to those that develop Football Manager to decide whether such a concern is worth addressing in future releases.

[RT--]

It's possible to understand how the current training system works and still think it's an area of the game that could do with a lot of development. It needs to be much more closely linked with tactics, for a start.

Other than anecdotes, is there any evidence that changing tactics actually does 'take some getting used to' for your players? I'm not covinced that's built in, at the moment.

[Rupal]

When all is said and done I think you are let down by a lack of instant gratification and a lack of simplicity. It is up to those that develop Football Manager to decide whether such a concern is worth addressing in future releases.

Why you always have to adopt this sort of tone towards anybody who dares to utter a word of criticism against the game is beyond me.

I agree wholeheartedly with the constructive points made by the OP, although the look and feel of the game are not major matters of concern for me personally.

It's interesting (though hardly surprising) to see wwfan coming out so strongly against set piece routines. If a routine was devised which would 'break' the ME would that really be so terrible? Nobody wanting to play the game 'seriously' would use such a routine anyway and if someone who bought the game as a casual player wanted to use it, why on earth shouldn't they? How somebody wants to play a game which he or she has purchased is surely entirely up to him/her? In any case, such 'cheats' would quickly become common knowledge and, I have no doubt, patching would sort out the problem pretty quickly. In the meantime, working on set pieces would provide a good new fun element for a lot of people, so I reckon that SI should consider it.

[pires29]

Only the injury prone, egotists or the disruptive top players retire or are forced out of top clubs before the age of 35 in real life. Many of the best players in football history reached their peaks at the age of 30 and many of the best players in recent football history only achieved recognition in their very late twenties. If the point was worth conceding it would be a flaw inherant in AI programming, but it most certainly is not worth conceding as it is clearly false.

I think what the OP was meaning was that these players are still key players and play nearly every game which IMO is unrealistic. Yes Paul Scholes and Ryan Giggs are still playing at the highest level for Man Utd but they are not playing week in, week out as their bodies wouldn't cope with the amount of games that are played in a season. Only the exceptionally fit players e.g. Maldini, Cafu, Roberto Carlos etc. continue to play consistently for years.

[PaulC]

Excellent constructive thread, the kind that we take on board. Lets keep it that way

Cheers folks.

[fm_macuser]

Training:

Only increases attributes, not how well the match goes. Should practice matches and match planning be part of the training module? I tend to think they should.

Just to pick up on what wwfan said earlier in the thread:

I have felt this for a while. Why should training just focus on the stats of the players? We should also be able to get players to train on formations, and on how to play in certain styles.

For example:

One of the training modules should be Match Experience or something similar. As part of this module you could allocate a certain amount of time to playing a training game with your preferred playing style. You could then allocate some time to playing with your 'Closing the game out' or 'chasing game' formations.

The beauty of something like this is that you could spend time in the tactics section making a new tactic. Then you could go into the training module and instruct the players to spend some time playing with this tactic as part of their 'match experience' module. Your Ass Man could then give feedback on how the tactic is working out and then also when it comes to implementing it in a proper game it wont be the first time the players have played with this formation.

I hope that makes sense!

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Fair OP though as an evolution as opposed to revolution of the series, FM09 is as much as I would have expected - with the exception of the initial DRM issue (which still rankles A LOT!).

[Katarian]

There is no lack of function in training. I have authored a thread showing clearly the fundamental importance of training and detailing the precise mechanics of the training system for those unable or unwilling to discover the mechanics behind the system themselves.

The only problem with training is that it has been almost exactly the same in very version since it was introduced. It definately needs to be broken down into more areas. Currently it is very difficult to work on some of the specific area of weakness with a player, you can't improve a defenders Heading without also working on his Dribbling and Flair.

[kashmirshazad]

What I feel could be improved in the game is teamtalks and how they are related to performances after half time. Too many times the AI come out like men possessed and even if you are playing short, slow tempo with defensive mentality you will get caught out. That part definitely needs looking at, to tie it in more with the managers stats, and captains stats also.

Apart from that there isnt much the game could improve on, its playable, and quite enjoy it. I could argue that the managers dont have there stats reflected in the AI, with unrealistic appointments being made, but that is debatable.

Another point that I would disagree with in regards to the OP is comments he made about old players. Certain players actually get better with age, and a lot of them retire when they are still playing quite well, so perhaps that could be reflected more in game, e.g. Backham has become better, Richard Dunne, Paul Scholes, Ryan Giggs, Danny Murphy e.g. are just a few selected who IMO have gone better, and will retire when they hit there peak,

[CrashOverride]

Another point that I would disagree with in regards to the OP is comments he made about old players. Certain players actually get better with age, and a lot of them retire when they are still playing quite well, so perhaps that could be reflected more in game, e.g. Backham has become better, Richard Dunne, Paul Scholes, Ryan Giggs, Danny Murphy e.g. are just a few selected who IMO have gone better, and will retire when they hit there peak,

Agreed that some players IRL may have performed better as they have got older but there are far to many of these in the game who have conitnuted to develop into there late 30's. I can only point to my game but to have Steven Gerrard , Jamie Carragher, Rio Ferdinand, John Terry, Fernando Torres, Joe Cole and Iker Casillas to name the ones I can rememember in work still pushing for first team spots and 37 and 38 is too much for me. I can think of handful of players over the last 10 years still performing at a top level in real life. These players could either retire at 35 or start to slip down the leagues but I cant see Reina Carragher Gerrard and Torres for example still being on the Liverpool team sheet in 2014 in real life but they are on my game.

I would be intersted to see if any other people have experienced this or if its just an anonmly in my game. Im getting to the stage now where some of my Regens are reaching 30 and over the next few seasons I will be intrested to see if they follow the Gerrard example or start to decline at a more normal rate.

[peter-evo]

I can't say I agree with any of the criticism in the OP and infact disagree with it almost entireally. Without a shadow of a doubt FM09's match engine has made this iteration of Football Manager easilly the best in its history.

It is all down to opinion at the end of the day. CaptainPlanet's 'best of the series' thread proved that not everyone agrees with you.

I look at my First Team selection statistics and a I see atleast 60% of the screen is blank with a mere 6 statistics shown, and no way to show any further statistics or relevant data alongside what is currently been shown. If anything this version of FM suffers from a lack of detailed display and certainly a minimal functionality. Compare it to FML and it is clear that FML is light years ahead of FM09 in terms of data presentation.

FML has the representation to a tee. I think it has enough facts on the screen but does not clutter up the screen. FM09's look is mainly on stats, words and numbers and not enough on graphics; the amount of data on screen is often over-whelming.

Only the injury prone, egotists or the disruptive top players retire or are forced out of top clubs before the age of 35 in real life. Many of the best players in football history reached their peaks at the age of 30 and many of the best players in recent football history only achieved recognition in their very late twenties. If the point was worth conceding it would be a flaw inherant in AI programming, but it most certainly is not worth conceding as it is clearly false.

You are kidding me right? At the moment, I often find 30 players above the age of 35 playing in the Premiership on Football Manager 2009. Now that is frankly ridiculous and unless you can find me 30 players above the age of 35 playing consistantly then I will concede that I am wrong.

There is no lack of function in training. I have authored a thread showing clearly the fundamental importance of training and detailing the precise mechanics of the training system for those unable or unwilling to discover the mechanics behind the system themselves.

That sums up why we need a more simple training system. Why on earth should I read up on training mechanics when there is a more simple sollution. And yes, I am unwilling to read on the mechanics

How exactly is it realistic for players to perfectly adapt to a new tactical setup in the first match? Clearly you have never heard of the English national team.

Not very, but I would at least want to see my team react to my tactical preferences in a realistic way. If I ask my team to play a slow tempo then I want to see my team playing at a slow tempo. 'Used to my tactic' or not, I would still expect them to react to my tactics, afterall, they are not deaf.

When all is said and done I think you are let down by a lack of instant gratification and a lack of simplicity. It is up to those that develop Football Manager to decide whether such a concern is worth addressing in future releases.

Don't tell me what I am 'let down' by. It is a game, I am not getting paid to run a team, i am playing a game. PaulC's and Matt's posts prove that they would like to listen and you clearly have no clue of business if you think that business men don't listen to their customers.

No need for the tone

[SFraser]

Don't tell me what I am 'let down' by. It is a game, I am not getting paid to run a team, i am playing a game. PaulC's and Matt's posts prove that they would like to listen and you clearly have no clue of business if you think that business men don't listen to their customers.

No need for the tone

Yes my tone was uncalled for, my apologies.

You are completely correct regarding opinions and any opinion stated by me is my opinion. Personally I do not agree with much of your criticism of the game although clearly I cannot disagree with how you feel with regards to the points you raise. I don't agree with much of the criticism of the game in these forums in general, I think it is a reaction to a complex game of simple interaction becoming a complex game of complex interaction by those that preferred the simple interaction of previous versions. With increased complexity of interaction, and the logical relationships between game mechanics and abstractions of football principles I see improvement. Others may see over elaboration, frustrating complexity, time consuming effort, or a sheer lack of realism.

Take for example Training. You posit that training is vague and difficult to understand, and that it is unrealistic in comparison to previous systems. If I take your perspective then I completely understand your points. Training requires a lot of "head scratching" to put together and understand even in principle, but it has always been this way in all versions that included training. Training is unrealistic as it does not represent the kind of systems those of us that have ever turned up for training would recognise. Training used to include daily schedules of various real world training components that would quite successfully replicate the impression of training. I understand these points entireally, but they are not my points, and they are not what I see.

When I look at Training I see a system that does not provide the impression of real life training, but provides the function that underlies real life training, the function of focusing on specific areas of a players ability for increased rates of improvement. Gone is the system of "5-a-side" and "Overload Attack" and in comes a system of multiple sliders controlling small groups of all the attributes that can be directly influenced by training. Out goes the impression of training and in comes the unelaborate mechanical function of directly managing the rate of change of your players attributes. A system that gives you the precise control that training actually provides a coach, that is balanced in such a way as to ensure that there are consequences as well as benefits within training regimes themselves, and that interacts with conditioning and morale to provide a wide arrangement of consequences and relationships through multiple facets of the game, that do indeed exist in real world football. I see a system that is less vague, that is more functional, that is more logical, that gives the sports-fitness-pHD lacking player more control over the same areas of a players attributes that real world coaches have, that relates to and influences a wide variety of other factors that are logically related. I see a better system, a system that loses the impression of realism to provide the function of realism within the game.

Yes it is hard to understand when you are blazing the trail for the first time. When I got my thread on Training stickied in the tactics forum the Original Post in that thread was completely wrong. The point is though that once you understand it, it is simple. Very simple. The system is only difficult to understand because the player doesn't know exactly what is going, but what is going on is a very simple system. The training system slowly puts the players attributes where you tell it. That is it. We are not pHD sports scientists with 25 years experience in the game, so we get this system. There is balance to it so that you cannot get the exact precise results you want, and this keeps it within the realm of realism and gameplay balance and football simulation. I think personally that it is a really simple, effective and clever system.

You don't wish to read the thread I started on Training to get a basic grasp of the basic principles of the training system. You don't wish to spend the time testing your own game and figuring out exactly what is going on. You probably want a completely different system of training altogether and you probably want a different game. Yes the game is complex, and yes it is superficially counter-intuitive but it has come a long long way in recent years and it has lost the superficiality of impressions of football that were truly vague and uncontrollable in favour of directly opening up the database to clear and logical systems of interaction that provide the function a manager would expect to have in his role.

Obviously we all have our complaints regarding the game, we all have areas we think need addressed or observe things that are rediculous from time to time, and as customers we have a right to air our complaints. As a customer you have right to criticise what you see, but equally I have the right to reply to your criticism.

There are a few points you raised that are clearly in my opinion points that should be addressed, but where you criticise complexity or over complexity and where you criticise abstract function and a lack of realism I object vehemently because I see in those areas a clear mastery of the basic principles of football from a programming and strategy gaming perspective, and if not mastery then atleast a conception of the means of dealing with such issues in a way that provides the tools to promote the function that ultimately produces the simulation of management. I do indeed object sometimes rather harshly, but at the end of the day I am playing a game that I deeply enjoy and do not deeply object to, I am playing a game where the basic principles of its development match and surpass my expectations and that represents one of the dearest loves of my life in a way that challenges and entertains and interests me on a very regular basis. This is a game that I would love to see improve but would hate to see change, and if I am in a minority then so be it, but it can only raise my hackles when I see those that clearly do not devote the same quantity of time to the same persuit raise issues I think are fundamentaly flawed, issues whose addressment would mean the destruction of the development of a passtime I so greatly enjoy.

Without question Football Manager 09 is one the deepest strategy games on the market and easilly the best football management simulation around. I am an individual whose top 5 games are Hearts of Iron, Eve Online, Dominions 3, Football Manager and PES and I think that when a game with the depth and complexity of FM is based around Football many people here don't understand quite how lucky they are.

[peter-evo]

Great Post

Don’t worry about it.

As regards with the training, I must admit that I haven’t seen your thread and would like a link. I do often find it over-bearing and maybe the statement I made about the ‘lack of (training)’ was a bit unfair as there clearly is a system behind the sliders. When I look at the system, I often feel over-whelmed and there is no clear indication of what each slider will do. I seriously do find the day-to-day system will mean less mechanics and thought than the current sliders and will equal in a simple yet effective solution for those who feel just as confused as I feel on occasion.

The main thing which helps me enjoy Football Manager is feeling in control and this system does not give me that feeling. I feel separated from the game and don’t actually feel I am doing anything when moving these sliders about.

Now maybe it is all due to my lack of effort and lack of willingness to learn about the system and perhaps I will grow to like and enjoy this system but I don’t think I should have to read a complex guide on this as I read enough about the tactics.

Football Manager 2009; I love it. I do really enjoy this game and I have put many-a hour into playing and improving my skills. This is all down to complexity. Judging by your post, it seems you are miss-understanding certain aspects of me as I play this game due to it being so complex. The multifaceted tasks I must achieve to get where I want is the thing that pulls me back to this game, week after week and I would hate for the game to change.

I will generally only criticise ‘over complexity’ when I feel there is a more simple and user friendly alternative that will fulfil its objective in a better way and all my suggestions, I feel, would enhance the game and leave users feeling more accomplished.

[Jops14]

I understand what sFraser is saying here, and what he says is very valid, but starngely enough i much preferred the "impression" of training by setting specific excersises, i felt more involved, whereas i don't in this, i adjust 1 or 2 sliders and see what happens. I always though i was good at setting up the old training systems. I mean personally i'd prefer going back to that, or providing a mix of both, where you adjust the sliders, thus changing specific training plans, or you do all the plans yourself, that way you get either option. Im not sure how it would work in practise, but in theory it seems a good compromise.

One thing i find frustrating, is that although the game dioes make huge leaps each release, some old interesting featurs are wiped out. For instance in the older games, i loved it when it gave you stats as if you were a real coach, like attack coaching etc. I don't see why that can't be brought back, for instance, if over a period of years, my team becomes renowned for attacking football and scoring lots of goals, attack coaching should be high, and if im in favoured personnel man management should be high etc. I just think it makes you look more like a "real" manager, and allows you to compare yourself to other managers using something else than your winning record and statistics (although please don;t ever take that out of the game!). Obviously it should build up ovr the years, but it could be just a nice extra addition.

In regards to players age, i always find this realistic, there are certianly loads of players 34+ still playing week in week out, they are either former world class players, or average players who are integral to a small promoted side etc. I could write a list if you really want, ehers about 10:

Giggs, Scholes, Van Der Sar, Friedel, Butt, Del Piero, Raul, Shearer (did), Yorke (did), Nedved, Zidane, Beckham, Maldini.

Although really you cant include goalkeppers (even though i did), my point is the game reflects this, and the AI managers do play the regens when they are good enough, as someone else stated earlier, many players don't hit prime till late 20's, possibly due to the fact they didnt play as much. Although one thing annoys me about player development is some don't develop the way you expect judging by Potential ability, even if you play them regularly, and you rarely ever get late natural developers, just ones that were found later. I think that could be adjusted, you can almost guarentee once a player hits 24 thats it for their stats.

[SFraser]

As regards with the training, I must admit that I haven’t seen your thread and would like a link. I do often find it over-bearing and maybe the statement I made about the ‘lack of (training)’ was a bit unfair as there clearly is a system behind the sliders. When I look at the system, I often feel over-whelmed and there is no clear indication of what each slider will do. I seriously do find the day-to-day system will mean less mechanics and thought than the current sliders and will equal in a simple yet effective solution for those who feel just as confused as I feel on occasion.

The main thing which helps me enjoy Football Manager is feeling in control and this system does not give me that feeling. I feel separated from the game and don’t actually feel I am doing anything when moving these sliders about.

Now maybe it is all due to my lack of effort and lack of willingness to learn about the system and perhaps I will grow to like and enjoy this system but I don’t think I should have to read a complex guide on this as I read enough about the tactics.

Having read this reply I don't think you have a lack of effort or willingness to learn but perhaps a lack of patience which means you do not have the desire to observe long term trends and are unwilling to take the time to understand certain mechanics.

Personally I think that the lack of direct information regarding certain aspects of the game is either a failure in development or is a a desire to try and impart some of the "learning process" aspect of football management whereby a manager has to actually learn what is going on. Currently "learning about the game" seems to seperate those that have problems with the game from those that really enjoy it, and as you say this may in time become a real problem regarding customers, however I personally find that it is highly "immersive" having to actually understand what goes on, as that way you feel like a trainee that is learning about the business that SI are attempting to replicate. This is somewhat abstract however and may not actually be the intention.

I personally think that the deeper you delve into the game it greater its appeal becomes, but we cant all spend all day playing games. I would not like to to lose the depth that FM has, but I do hope certain areas can be improved. The problem I have is that often players that take very little time to immerse themselves are the most critical of the game. They think that a "game" should be a "game" like street fighter or tekken or PES and not a longterm game like Hearts of Iron. Obviously the defining line is financial but at the same time people need to realise the difference between their own failures and the games failures.

[dking]

The lack of incentive to play a career game:

TBF there are small features like the possibility of having a stadium named after you and I think it's possible to become a club great etc.? Also once you've been there a while you have the option of choosing your feeder club etc.

Yep,i had a stadium named after me when i won the eufa cup with swindon town!!

[King Costly]

The team talks and media interaction in general is pretty poor. Tbh press conferences sounded interesting but after you've done about 2 there's no point doing any others, they're exactly the same. I also agree with tactics and the match engine, you have to go far too in-depth IMO this year and this doesn't suit everyone.

[phnompenhandy]

On The Training Controversy:

I have read and digested the fascinating contributions SFraser has recently been making to the training component of FM. However, I am entirely in agreement with peter-evo in regarding it as hugely complex and arcane. What SFraser is producing is uncannily analogous to that which wwfan and millie did for tactics. Many people have applauded their small TT&Ftome of tactical analysis but rightly resent having to pour over so much detail to get the benefits.

So, what is SI doing right now? Trialling, through FML, a new system that incorporates TT&F into the new ME in a way that is accessible and intuitive to both the serious and casual gamer. This seems a brilliant quantum leap forward which should keep everyone (relatively) happy.

May I humbly suggest (whilst recognising the enormity of the task) that something similar be done with training. As with tactics, there is no need to recode the programme, but rather to make it user-friendly so that we gamers can get more benefits from the training system without having SFraser's powers of analysis (and time).

Maybe the head coach could, via a wizard, guide us through the process rather like the tactics experiment mentioned above.

Given that PaulC is monitoring this thread, I hope he will at least give this proposal a moment's consideration.

[SFraser]

Maybe the head coach could, via a wizard, guide us through the process rather like the tactics experiment mentioned above.

If you think that kind of an approach is an ideal step forward for the FM series I would love to read what you think of the idea in this thread.

[PaulC]

Interesting idea, and we do need to revisit training in the future but for now our resources are being directed towards tactics.....but the more discussion the better on these forums

[swash]

Without getting into some of the wider issues, the 2 things which still bug the hell out of me are

1/ The dreaded 4-2-4. Yes you can counter it to some extent, but for some reason it still turns the computer teams into a bunch of Brazilian internationals, even if they are a non league side. I'm sorry but in real life switching to 4-2-4 is a pretty desperate move and usually just sees lots of aimless long ball lumped forward. In FM it turns the whole team into world beaters!

2/ Team talks.

At the start of the game there are only something like 5 team talks, most of which are not appropriate to the game you are playing. Despite the lack of choice, there still seems to be a daft situation where selecting the same team talk more than a couple of times in a row, particularly "you can win this" demotivates your players and leads to an abject performance.

[peter-evo]

Interesting idea, and we do need to revisit training in the future but for now our resources are being directed towards tactics.....but the more discussion the better on these forums

That is good to hear and I do agree that tactics should take priority! Maybe something to consider or look at in the future though?

Without getting into some of the wider issues, the 2 things which still bug the hell out of me are

1/ The dreaded 4-2-4. Yes you can counter it to some extent, but for some reason it still turns the computer teams into a bunch of Brazilian internationals, even if they are a non league side. I'm sorry but in real life switching to 4-2-4 is a pretty desperate move and usually just sees lots of aimless long ball lumped forward. In FM it turns the whole team into world beaters!

2/ Team talks.

At the start of the game there are only something like 5 team talks, most of which are not appropriate to the game you are playing. Despite the lack of choice, there still seems to be a daft situation where selecting the same team talk more than a couple of times in a row, particularly "you can win this" demotivates your players and leads to an abject performance.

1. The 4-2-4 is more common than you think. This weekend, on match of the day, watch a team who are a goal down and are playing a 4-4-2. Towards the latter stages of the match they will push their wingers forward and be effectively be playing four up top. I do agree that it is very difficult to counter and often leads to more goals than it should.

2. I completely agree that the Team Talks system needs a massive revamp and it shouldn't matter so much when the logic behind it all seems flawed.

[jayahr]

Great discussion

Fwiw I am now waiting for days to be able to add my two cents and still don't have time to do so

At least still something to look forward to

[peter-evo]

Great discussion

Fwiw I am now waiting for days to be able to add my two cents and still don't have time to do so

At least still something to look forward to

Has been a good discussion but seems to be dying off a bit

What do you mean? Can you not get many consecutive days off play together?

[jld123]

Great thread.

I bought the last FIFA Manager (please don't judge me!) and needless to say it was poor, with some ridiculous features. However there were a few decent ideas that were, in the main, poorly implemented.

The main thing that I picked up on was the player interaction. In my opinion the captain should have a bit more responsibility, and be a bit different in terms of interaction. He should be more of a link with the rest of the team, helping with communication. If you pick a captain who is too young he might have a detrimental effect when trying to relay your messages about tactics or team-building.

Another good thing that FIFA had was each player having their own trust rating in you. This really got me more involved in the game. I enjoyed being able to tell players that they were in my plans, or to be patient, or that they were going to be in the team if they worked hard. In FM you rely on the player talking to you before you can do anything about it, whereas in my opinion it should be the other way around.

That's my two cents for what it's worth. Just to maybe raise your opinions of me slightly, I have played on Champ Man since I was about 7 and have all editions of FM. I never intend to buy another FIFA Manager, and I never got through a whole season on it because it was so goddamn awful. I uninstalled it and sold it on eBay.

[peter-evo]

Great thread.

I bought the last FIFA Manager (please don't judge me!) and needless to say it was poor, with some ridiculous features. However there were a few decent ideas that were, in the main, poorly implemented.

The main thing that I picked up on was the player interaction. In my opinion the captain should have a bit more responsibility, and be a bit different in terms of interaction. He should be more of a link with the rest of the team, helping with communication. If you pick a captain who is too young he might have a detrimental effect when trying to relay your messages about tactics or team-building.

Another good thing that FIFA had was each player having their own trust rating in you. This really got me more involved in the game. I enjoyed being able to tell players that they were in my plans, or to be patient, or that they were going to be in the team if they worked hard. In FM you rely on the player talking to you before you can do anything about it, whereas in my opinion it should be the other way around.

That's my two cents for what it's worth. Just to maybe raise your opinions of me slightly, I have played on Champ Man since I was about 7 and have all editions of FM. I never intend to buy another FIFA Manager, and I never got through a whole season on it because it was so goddamn awful. I uninstalled it and sold it on eBay.

I got Fifa Manager 2007 and it really was disappointing.

The interactions and graphics layout (Stan's thread) are the two things that I believe should be used to build a better Football Manager.

[Mezz Boms]

great thread, i think the graphics in stans thread are brilliant and "a must add" to FM. I feel that possible new players are being turned away from FM with the present spreadsheet look.

I know that making coding improvements for the game is the top priority at the moment but adding graphics could be a really nice way to start the ball rolling for a brand new decade of FM editions (as stated in threads above )