New FM Live 1.2 Tactic system

I've just been reading through the FM Live forum and see 1.2 is in the making. One feature is...

- A new tactical system designed in collaboration with Richard Claydon and Gareth Millward, authors of 'Tactical Theorems & Frameworks'. - The user is asked to make various selections about their formation, style of play, required match strategy and the system then automatically sets up the underlying team and player instructions in accordance with the respected Tactical Theorems & Frameworks research. The intention is to help the user build a balanced tactic (for example with two central midfielders, it is generally desirable to have one instructed to play more defensively than the other) while helping to educate them about the tactics system. This is the first phase in some improvements to the tactical system - the second phase will be changes to the controls available on the tactics pages to make them fit closer with the above system. For now the wizard creates a tactic which can be edited in the usual way according to the user's skills.

Is this the start of something that we could see in FM 2010?

Although I'm happy with the current system, I believe this will offer great support to those who struggle with tactics. It might also help those of us who are currently comfortable, to explai tactical settings more easily. It's often difficult for one person to describe their tactics, whilst on the other hand, it can be difficult for someone reading a thread here to fully understand what is actually described.

A tactical wizard is really a "win win" implementation and I hope it makes FM10.

Yeah i agree, i've found tactics a real struggle to get to grips with and I think it has to be the next big change in FM 2010. I'm pleased that they seem to be taking steps to help us without the tactical know how.

It sounds great, i dont really struggle with the tactics system at the minute but its so unbelievably time consuming to make one that works it takes the fun out of the game, id love to see this tactics wizard implemented into FM10:D

Waste of time, they need to fix the underlying flaws before working on a shiny new front end for creating tactics, this is just a façade to appease the people who are unhappy about what the game has become.

Also, I don't think wwfan and company can any longer deny that they are directly involved in the development of the game. That means from now on Football Manager is going to be modelled around the views of people that think you need a phd in the match engine to have any form of self-derived success, and if you don't have time to spend hours analysing the ai model you will be forced to use in game wizards or follow 50 page user guides just to give you a slim chance of competing. What's the bet that even after this new wizard is created (which I presume will just be a graphical version of the TT&F spreadsheet) the same problems still persist? The same inbalances and match engine flaws and anomalies will still dog the game, because even following the advice of TT&F it doesn't represent a realistic management experience at the moment.

This, in my opinion, is the final nail in the coffin for FM. Instead of consulting UI and usability experts for the actual front end and real tactical experts for the match engine, they are consulting these pseudo-scientific frauds who want to mould FM into their own fetishistic tactic simulator. Do you not wonder why the people that are involved in TT&F are never complaining about the match engine but always sticking up for it, without fail, whatever the argument against it? Despite it's obvious flaws? This is because they are actually creating it to their own tastes and specifications and anyone who opposes this tide of change simply "doesn't understand football".

I'm not being fooled by these gimmicks and neither should you, don't just sit back and watch them destroy the game.

Agree 100% with the post above, the game feels like wwfans pet project these days and bores many users half to death

Agree 100% with the post above, the game feels like wwfans pet project these days and bores many users half to death

The overall post may sound a tad harsh in places, but yeah, however much i like and respect Rich, i can certainly empathise with irt3hown.

Just to flesh out what I said before, my issue with the way things are going is this.

For FM08 there was the opportunity for the more casual gamer to enjoy the game as they could come up with what wwfan dubbed crazy arrow tactics which exploited the weaknesses in the match engine, not to everyone's tastes obviously, but it didn't stop other people such as wwfan himself from succeeding with his own much more methodical approach.

I remember wwfan popping up on the threads of the crazy arrow tactics basically demeaning any achievements with these tactics almost as if it was cheating and then later gleefully saying that they wouldn't work next time round as he had single handedly persuaded SI to drop the crazy arrows.

I can't understand this at all as wwfan had a game which he could enjoy in his own way but for some reason seems hellbent on stopping "the dark side" in enjoying the game in their own way.

For some reason SI have jumped in line behind wwfan and now even given him a role in FM Live.

This almost smacks of meglomania on wwfan's part, in a my way or the highway type of way.

Just to clarify my own situation, I am not struggling with FM09, I am on the verge of back to back promotions with Boston, but now the game feels increasingly like a chore and not just the fun and relaxation it used to be.

Surely the objective for SI should be to make the game enjoyable for the widest spectrum of users, not just one particular group.

Totally ridiculous. All Millie and I do is try to help people understand the way the game is developing be explaining how sliders interact, the methodology of which has been embraced by SI, and all of a sudden we are the villains. We have no influence on how the ME is built. All we have done is translate sliders into English. All we are now doing is assisting that translation become part of the game because, guess what, many people find the sliders hard to understand.

For Pete's sake, people have been crying out for an easier to understand tactical system for years, and when the chance of one appearing suddenly raises its head, it is part of a Machiavellian plot to stop casual gamers from enjoying FM. Grow up, why don't you!

How about I ask Paul to allow for a user tactic that ensures you win 75% of your games? Just enough anxiety to make the season exciting but a guaranteed trophy at the end. Would that rock your boat? I've quite honestly had enough of this idiocy. All we have ever tried to do is help people play FM, and we get nothing but insults and abuse from a certain section of the community. If you don't like, or can't, play FM, or it offends your sensibilities, buy a different management simulation and stop bloody complaining!

Touched a nerve I see.

OK let me clear something up, yes historically you and Millie have been a tremendous asset to the game and I take my hat off to all the effort that you have put into that, certainly up to FM08 whilst your systems have never been to my taste I still admired the work you put into the game.

Towards the end of FM08 however whilst FM09 was in development, your persona seemed to change, and you actually seemed to openly criticise people whose approach seemed to in some way offend you, it was as if you resented the fact that they could match your achievements with far far less effort.

At that stage however there was no need for the different groups to have any issues which each other as they could both get on with playing the game in their own way.

I find your quote "we have no influence on how the ME is built" impossible to believe. If I could be bothered to search I'm sure I could find posts by you where you stated that SI had finally agreed with your suggestion that the crazy arrows should be removed from the game!

My complaint is not that the tactical system is hard to understand, but that by implementing your proposals they have now limited the ways in which you can successfully approach the game.

Your last paragraph is frankly pathetic, it's the equivalent to me calling you a fanboy, every time someone complains about the game you and your like always resort to the accusation that the person complaining wants to win their games all the time, as I think Garry has spent about the last 3 years trying to drum into you, this is patently not the case, what we want is to be able to achieve a realistic result for the season as a whole in a way that doesn't involve having to spend hours on end with banks of tactics to achieve it.

As for your last line, I thought this was called a discussion board, not a discuss things that you like board.

With the benefit of hindsight I maybe should not have made my previous post so personal to you, but it is my impression that you have been heavily involved in the direction the game is moving.

Equally rubbish. I have never sold anything I write as a super-tactic, nor am I offended if people can design tactics that are better than mine. If I were trying to develop a super tactic, do you not think I might have released one by now? What I am offended by is people who disparage the huge amount of effort Millie and I put into helping people as being manipulative or egotistical. I've been incredibly patient and tolerant with people who basically openly insult me and repeatedly try to help them. We put up with it without much of a murmur. These posts, however, have gone a step too far.

Let me repeat one last time. SI's intention is to make the best football management simulator on the market. If some of my ideas and texts help this, then I have no issue of their being used. However, this is reflective of their desire, not directive. If you do not understand this, then there is no point in conversing with you any further.

If you actually read my last paragraph, you'd see it stated that people want to win a certain percentage of their games without much effort, not every game. However, the 'we don't want to win every game, that would be ridiculous, oh, ha , ah isn't he silly' is a nice, lazy cop out. You either want to win trophies without having to think very hard, which is fine, but you should buy a different game, or you want to better understand the sliders (and thus tactics) so the game is more enjoyable, which means you should wait and see if our efforts and helping this happen are useful before slagging them off. Which one is it, or have I missed the crux of your argument?

I find your quote "we have no influence on how the ME is built" impossible to believe. If I could be bothered to search I'm sure I could find posts by you where you stated that SI had finally agreed with your suggestion that the crazy arrows should be removed from the game!

Sorry I have no intention to be involved in the debate between you guys. But to this particular point, I think the arrows in FM08 M.E. are too strong which is so obvious to and has been well-exploited by nearly everyone playing that game, not only WWfan. SI gotta do something in FM09 to these arrows even if there has been no WWfan, although I don't think to simply delete the arrows is a good approach.

Touched a nerve I see.

OK let me clear something up, yes historically you and Millie have been a tremendous asset to the game and I take my hat off to all the effort that you have put into that, certainly up to FM08 whilst your systems have never been to my taste I still admired the work you put into the game.

Towards the end of FM08 however whilst FM09 was in development, your persona seemed to change, and you actually seemed to openly criticise people whose approach seemed to in some way offend you, it was as if you resented the fact that they could match your achievements with far far less effort.

At that stage however there was no need for the different groups to have any issues which each other as they could both get on with playing the game in their own way.

I find your quote "we have no influence on how the ME is built" impossible to believe. If I could be bothered to search I'm sure I could find posts by you where you stated that SI had finally agreed with your suggestion that the crazy arrows should be removed from the game!

My complaint is not that the tactical system is hard to understand, but that by implementing your proposals they have now limited the ways in which you can successfully approach the game.

Your last paragraph is frankly pathetic, it's the equivalent to me calling you a fanboy, every time someone complains about the game you and your like always resort to the accusation that the person complaining wants to win their games all the time, as I think Garry has spent about the last 3 years trying to drum into you, this is patently not the case, what we want is to be able to achieve a realistic result for the season as a whole in a way that doesn't involve having to spend hours on end with banks of tactics to achieve it.

As for your last line, I thought this was called a discussion board, not a discuss things that you like board.

With the benefit of hindsight I maybe should not have made my previous post so personal to you, but it is my impression that you have been heavily involved in the direction the game is moving.

Good post swash mate.

I can't get away with intelligent posts anymore, because anyone who does'nt agree just tends to go off on a tirade about how the game does'nt cheat, when i have'nt even mentioned the word?

Then when i try to get a discussion going about the path that FM looks to be taking and how it is likely to alienate a large % of FM'ers, that is backed up with evidence from this very Community, the topic is closed without compromise and by who?

Rich - Surely by not allowing it to be discussed this will only go to further alienate even more FM'ers?

As swash says mate, you continuously choose to pigeonhole me as one of those people who simply want to win all their games, when it could not be further from the truth. How can we hold an intelligent discussion if you cannot/will not accept this first?

I've enjoyed chatting to PaulC in the past week or so, for all i know he may still think i'm a pratt or a pain in the ass, but there has not been a single crossed word and the guy appears to genuinely care about the game and not just the money its making him.

I'll have to hope that this new Wizard will be a good thing and that it will help me enjoy FM2010, my only real concern is that its based on TT&F which i've never really understood or managed to get any team playing well when i've used it and like swash said really, its boring.

Not sure if it matters, but I've made a very successful tactic that is not at all based on the TTFs. In other words - it's possible to do well without following WWFans writings.

Your righteous indignation doesn't wash with me wwfan. Neither does your attempt to tarnish everyone that disagrees with you a conspiracy theorist.

Every response you make is inundated with supercilious assertions about people's gaming mentality and the fact if they don't submit to your views then they should just play another game. That is the exact point we are making, there used to be choice, now there is none.

We are being indoctrinated with a type of gaming fascism which I and others will slowly come to reject and you WILL see a backlash at some point down the line. Your idea to tack on a "****** proof" wizard is more transparent than a glass-bottom boat. Your motives are clear and to be fair to yourself, at least you are open and brazen about it so have provided the fans with every opportunity to prevent what now looks inevitable. However I don't believe it is too late, damage has been done this year because the playability of the game is being slowly eroded with each iteration of the game and if that perpetuates then eventually it will start to permeate the public's reception to the game which will in turn affect sales.

This is not the beginning of the end in my opinion, merely the end of the beginning. I also believe that the "casual" mentality is in the majority and in a battle of these mentalities ours will have the greatest impact on the long-term success of the game.

wwfan

OK maybe I should go and play another game, but that's a bit harsh when I've enjoyed this one for so many years.

Do I want to win trophies with the mimimum of effort, no not really, I'm probably the least trophy hunting manager around as I nearly always play the game down in the lower leagues.

Maybe the problem is that SI have stopped making a game and now make a simulator, but are they sure that a sufficient chunk of their buyers are ready to head off in this direction.After all real life football management is about as stressful a job as there is out there, but the guys that do it, particularly at the top level are rewarded incredibly well for the heart attack risk that comes with the job!

My beef is simply that whether I win lose or draw a game I don't want to feel that I am doing a second job to achieve whatever success I may or may not achieve.

I am absolutely convinced that FM09 is the least accessible ever for newcomers, if I was 16 again and buying my first version of the game, I would imagine that the disc would be gathering dust at the back of a cupboard by now and that FM10 would not be on my Christmas list.

I am absolutely convinced that FM09 is the least accessible ever for newcomers, if I was 16 again and buying my first version of the game, I would imagine that the disc would be gathering dust at the back of a cupboard by now and that FM10 would not be on my Christmas list.

Succinctly put. Having said that it's not the inaccessibility to newcomers that is the biggest concern, it's the alienation of the old school die-hards that have been with the game for many years, that is what will have the most telling impact. This is the problem when there is no competition at all, it was the same with Pro Evolution Soccer, for years they were the dominant force in terms of playability but they began to deviate from what made the game great and eventually, somehow, FIFA has now overtaken it in terms of being the better game. The same *could*, as crazy as it sounds, happen with Championship Manager and FM.

They need to think about both ends, wwfan is saying to the old timers, if you don't like it don't let the door hit you on the backside, but if nobody replaces them the trouble begins for SI, and I can't see SEGA being too happy with that.

wwfan

OK maybe I should go and play another game, but that's a bit harsh when I've enjoyed this one for so many years.

Do I want to win trophies with the mimimum of effort, no not really, I'm probably the least trophy hunting manager around as I nearly always play the game down in the lower leagues.

Maybe the problem is that SI have stopped making a game and now make a simulator, but are they sure that a sufficient chunk of their buyers are ready to head off in this direction.After all real life football management is about as stressful a job as there is out there, but the guys that do it, particularly at the top level are rewarded incredibly well for the heart attack risk that comes with the job!

My beef is simply that whether I win lose or draw a game I don't want to feel that I am doing a second job to achieve whatever success I may or may not achieve.

I am absolutely convinced that FM09 is the least accessible ever for newcomers, if I was 16 again and buying my first version of the game, I would imagine that the disc would be gathering dust at the back of a cupboard by now and that FM10 would not be on my Christmas list.

The thing that is being massively overlooked here is TIME

I actually think that the idea of watching games in their entirety and tweaking tactics to suit IS realistic and for anyone that has the time to play FM 24/7 or basically as a full time job its an absolutely brilliant idea.

The problem is, i'd hazard a guess that at least 95% of FM'ers actually have a life or a job and/or family that restricts this time to no more than a few hours a day.

Something to add to the equation is what wwfan has said before about using tactic sets and that after some early effort you will be able to know when to make the correct tweaks at the correct time and as such have just as much success as you would using a single plug and play tactic.

So basically what he's saying is, you can get exactly the same outcome, but its just going to take you a lot more time, now correct me if i'm wrong, but how on Earth can that be considered a good thing, or entice more people to play the game?

Please feel free to point out any obvious flaws that my statement contains?

@irt3hown

Still, isn't all this subjective? I find FM09 to one of the most enjoyable editions yet, and I've been playing since CM 92 was new. If I was new to the game, but loved football as I do now, I would find this game intriguing and entertaining. As for your PES vs. Fifa statement, I've always preferred Fifa over PES. PES is a POS IMO. You're making your statements sound like the ultimate truth, while in reality they're just your personal opinions presented with a lot of fancy words. In all honesty, you seem a bit paranoid thinking that wwfan and co. have their own agenda, which apparantly is to ruin the game for you.

@Hammer1000

I never watch a full game - only key moments, and I'm doing well. All you have to do is pay attention to the commentary and game stats - it usually contains all the information you need.

They need to think about both ends, wwfan is saying to the old timers, if you don't like it don't let the door hit you on the backside, but if nobody replaces them the trouble begins for SI, and I can't see SEGA being too happy with that.

Yes, point taken.

Back on topic, surely a fundemental problem with this supposed "wizard" is that a wizard only helps you set up an initial base tactic. Anyone can download a solid base from the internet, but it's no longer about how solid your starting tactic is but actually how you read the match engine and pre-empt or react to opposing ai managers actions. In other words, a wizard isn't going to help the average person understand all the intricacies and considerations that need to be made when switching tactics during the game, or tweaking for a particular opponent.

Are we inevitably heading towards the requirement for difficulty levels? The game more than ever has become a human vs. ai battle, and in every other genre this has led to the introduction of difficulty levels to cater for people with different mentalities and circumstances under which they wish to play the game, because without this introduction the games simply wouldn't have sold as well. I think this same pressure is going to start to build against FM if it continues in it's current trend.

Troels, you fall under the camp of "well I'm doing well so stuff everyone else". Fair enough, if that's your view point then you are the Margaret Thatcher of the Football Manager community but please don't try and suggest people don't have the right to a different opinion, just because YOU are doing well. Also, let me hazard a guess - you've spent possibly hundreds of hours refining and building your tactical system that has led you to a degree of success? If that is the case then it simply adds weight to the claim that it now requires an absurd level of trial and error to come up with a solid tactic, never mind an entire set!

@irt3hown

@Hammer1000

I never watch a full game - only key moments, and I'm doing well. All you have to do is pay attention to the commentary and game stats - it usually contains all the information you need.

I mean absolutely NO disrespect mate, but you are playing the game as Real Madrid(according to your tactic thread) and as such any input needed from yourself to succeed is minimal.

You may well find though looking at where the game is headed, that you will have to work a lot harder to succeed in future installments even with the likes of R Madrid, Barca, Inter and Man Utd etc

Troels, you fall under the camp of "well I'm doing well so stuff everyone else".

Of course I do. Please re-read my post. All I've said is that because some of you appear to be struggling, it may not be so for everyone else.

Fair enough, if that's your view point then you are the Margaret Thatcher of the Football Manager community but please don't try and suggest people don't have the right to a different opinion, just because YOU are doing well.

First of all, I'm not an old ugly woman. Second, your *opinion* sounds more like an attack on a few people trying to help out, simply because you either don't understand them or do not agree. It's hard to take someone seriously, when most they deliver are personal attacks. I'm all for different opinions, so please don't get angry with me simply because I do not agree with you.

Also, let me hazard a guess - you've spent possibly hundreds of hours refining and building your tactical system that has led you to a degree of success? If that is the case then it simply adds weight to the claim that it now requires an absurd level of trial and error to come up with a solid tactic, never mind an entire set!

Heh, unfortunately you couldn't be more wrong. I actually spend quite a few hours trying to implement the TTF, but it didn't really work so instead I tried an approach making more sense to me, and guess what - it worked. It didn't take more than what - 20? 30 minutes? And for the record - it's *one* tactic, not a set. (So far my degree of success has left me unbeaten for 83 league matches in a row, but that's a different story)

I mean absolutely NO disrespect mate, but you are playing the game as Real Madrid(according to your tactic thread) and as such any input needed from yourself to succeed is minimal.

You may well find though looking at where the game is headed, that you will have to work a lot harder to succeed in future installments even with the likes of R Madrid, Barca, Inter and Man Utd etc

By all means, you are right. I know I'm playing with a world class team in my thread, and I'm doing well. Still, I'd like to think I've come up with a tactic that is at least a bit successful, since the football played is great, it's defensively sound and the amount of goals scored is above average. The *main* thing about my thread/tactic is that it's based on one tactic only - no different versions, and also that it's not following the TTFs, which may be relieving for some of those struggling with making that work.

When I start with a lower league team, I may be in for a nasty surprise, but I sure as hell won't blame WWFan or anyone else.

Another thing - even with a world class team it's possible to do bad. My past experiences and some o the forum threads are proof of that.

I've been playing FM for the past decade or so, I don't usually post in these forums but I think it's time to chime in. FM 2009 is extremely hard and not user friendly. It's the first time that I don't enjoy the game at all. I can't get myself to play it, I keep starting new games, play them for half a season or so and abandon them; let a week pass, start a new one only to get frustrated again.

And it's not like I don't enjoy challenges, I love them actually. This installment tho makes me feel handicapped. The AI can do everything right and I just struggle to cope against average sides and keep getting steamrolled against equal or slightly better opponents. I've read extensively and repeatedly pretty much everything on all forums about the various tactical approaches, I'm an avid fan of the game with a pretty good understanding of real life tactics, I watched countless full matches ingame, still can't do it. The mentality sliders and the way they interact with each other are horribly counter-intuitive, the way they synergize with the rest of the instructions is even worse. The way the AI changes formation without notice and before you can react to it they already score is gutting.

The way the game evolved to a constant switch of tactics during the game calls for a new approach to the user gui. The user should be given either a vast amount of preset tactics or a tactical wizard that creates tactics of EQUAL quality to the ones used by the AI. Maybe an Assistant Manager of kinds that is equally smart with the AI managers and suggests the best course of action with an option to disable his input for purists. And definitely a feature to pause action soon as the AI changes tactics/formation, notify you of what has changed and let you pick how to counter by switching your own tactics. Just my 0.02$.

Stejo, thanks for chiming in, it was well worth it. I hope you are just one of many "lurkers" that will add their support to the cause when the final battle begins. I'm not sure when it's going to be but there will be a point where people finally decide to challenge the status quo and try to alter the direction the game is taking. I think you are absolutely spot on in your thesis regarding the handicapping of human managers to enhance the difficulty factor. This is not even debated by the so called experts, because the default tactics in the game are shockingly flawed.

The assistant manager input has been improved lately but in the context of a game which requires such studious analysis of the match engine to keep pace with the constantly changing AI behaviour, it really needs to be re-architected from the ground up. I think this could be another alternative to incorporating something like difficulty levels, but I still think there should be some ability for the user to control how sophisticated the opposition manager AI they want to play against is, just like in a shoot-em-up the user should be able to choose between shooting a bunch of clueless zombies for nothing more than fun, or fight against intelligent enemies which can read your style of play and adapt accordingly.

I'm thinking of starting a petition which basically lays out in clear terms, that anyone who signs it will refuse to buy another copy of Football Manager until these issues are addressed.

when the final battle begins.

I'm beginning to think you're a troll just making a bad joke. Surely you cannot be serious? Did you ever stop to think that this game is a simulation? It's supposed to be as close to real life as possible. I'm pretty sure Sir Alex pays attention to the match details all the time - at least I've never seen him tell the players to "do it for the fans" and then proceed backstage to get a warm cup of tea, leaving the rest to the players.

The game has difficulty levels in a way - pick a superior team, and you'll probably have an easier time than if you choose to play with relegation candidates.

'when the final battle begins...' that is probably the most pathetic yet most hilarious line I've ever read in this forum.

Good luck with your petition.

Troels, read Hammer 1000's post about TIME.

Of course you are right about SAF (although maybe he's not a good example after their last 2 results,lol)

Put if you want to take FM as a simulation to the extreme, then you would have to watch every game on full!

SAF is a full time football manager, as Hammer says most of us have jobs, families etc and just don't have to the time to play in such detail.

What is causing this big divide is that in FM08 and its predecessors both groups could succeed, the casual gamer who wanted to plug in and play with 1 tactic or the more in depth players.

Now SI seem to be bending over backwards to please the in depth boys and basically stick two fingers up at the casual player.

Such casual players who have been playing the game for years are in my opinion perfectly entitled to get annoyed when they are told that if you don't like it, go away and play something else.

It feels like OUR game has been taken away to keep another group of players happy, despite the fact that previous incarnations proved that the game could keep both groups happy.

Imagine how wwfan would feel if the game had gone the other way and if only exploitative tactics now worked, and you couldn't succeed with carefully made well structured tactics.

Of course he could stop playing, he might choose to disappear quietly, but in the reverse situation that currently exists, some of us are trying to save the game that we love, the purpose of the posts is not just to have a pop at SI and their advisors, but to say that you are alienating a significant proportion of your fan base.

@Swash

I know where you're coming from, and I'd like to comment on a few things.

First of all, I consider myself a casual player. Each game takes me 10 minutes at the most, from setting up the starting 11 to giving the post match team talk. I have never watched any games in full as I really don't see the need for it.

If someone tells the casual players to put up or get lost then of course that's wrong. Personally, I haven't read any posts suggesting that.

As for the 'we're trying to save the game' argument, it's hard for me to understand what needs saving. If a lot of people, including myself (I have a job and girlfriend to spend time on as well) can manage to do well in this game, you could too. FM08 was harder for me than FM09.

What I'm trying to say is that, for me anyway, there's no need for excessive micro management, full detail games or changing tactics every 2 minutes depending on what the AI does. And I do not consider myself particularly good at this game.

Swash is 100% right!! it does seem to me that SI seem to be bending over backwards to please the in depth boys and basically stick two fingers up at the casual player, i personally see 08 as an easier game compared to 09. SI need to bring it back a level for a casual player, but if there are not going to then they need to get the assistant manager to give more information then just "there a big gap between forwards and midfield". The simple rule about developing software, is that you shouldn't need a degree to be able to perform a simple task, it seems like to me you need to go to warwick uni and go there coaching course just to understand how to use tactic.

Troels you are using Real Madrid. Start a new game with West Ham or a lower quality team and see how you fair.

Not sure if it matters, but I've made a very successful tactic that is not at all based on the TTFs. In other words - it's possible to do well without following WWFans writings.

And that's why we want the system to accomodate you. If you can do well without TT&F, then good. The fact that people play in many different ways is a good thing.

I feel like I'm walking into the lion's den here. So be gentle with me. I'm leaving any weapons I have at the door, and edging slowly towards you, arms raised.

First: the new wizard helps translate the sliders in to English. That's all it does. The rest is down to you.

Two: I've see time mentioned. Well. This SAVES time. Want to go more defensive? Use the "shout instruction" feature from the match screen (no need to go into tactics) and select "play more defensive". No need for fiddling around. Just a need to react to what's happening. Even on "commentary only", I'm sure that's possible. And there's plenty more you can shout from the sidelines.

Three: This will eliminate the need for a 50-page TT&F document. So, Richard and I will no longer be able to come on these forums and "boast" about how good we are. We'll be made redundant. Our power defeated. Which is good news for all, it seems.

Four: The wizard is only phase one. The second phase is to get a more realistic ME coming your way, with features that work more like they're supposed to, English names for English concepts, and hopefully the creases will be ironed out.

Five: To return to time - if you don't like the sliders, you no longer need to use them. Everything is done via your instructions -in English.

Six: There is still a through beta testing process needed for both FML and FM10, into which are many testers who are either hostile, indifferent or have never even seen TT&F. Their input will largely determine where this project goes, since SI still need to sell the game at the end of the day. If they hate it, this is gone.

--------

Now the point I really want to address. If the game is now based in English (if you want it to be). If it is now possible to make far reaching changes in a couple of clicks, saving time. If you can shout out instructions like a real manager. And if this is all backed up with a more realistic ME. Then what's the beef here?

We were asked to help develop a system that spoke in English to the users. A system which would simplify tactics and allow people to make changes quicker and easier without the need for silly fiddling around with sliders. Which is a DIRECT response to people like those here who have bemoaned the state of the game.

Seriously. What is the problem?

I would have thought any system that made Richard and I redundant and made him **** off out of your lives would gain your approval?

@irt3hown

To prove what? I've already said I don't consider myself particularly good at this game. Yes I'm playing with Real Madrid, but does that make it impossible to lose or come up with poor tactics? Would any tactic let me win 6-2 away and 4-1 at home against AC Milan, just because I have a good team? I might fail miserably trying to manage lower quality teams, but nevertheless I think I'll give it a shot when this season is over. Should I be unable to create an acceptable tactic I'll blame myself - not WWFan or anyone else trying to help.

I dont agree with any Petition idea's i want to be clear about that.

I can only hope that FM2010 will be a game that i can get some enjoyment out of and i'll save any further comments about it if and when it is deserved.

I will also continue to try to get my head around FM2009 i have only played 1 full season so far since the last patch, a great season in which i finished 5th in the EPL with West Ham, but despite putting together a very strong squad struggled to perform at all in season 2.

As far as 09 is concerned, if i can get a Top Club performing well season after season, i cannot understand how i cannot at least achieve a similar finish to the 5th spot i managed with the Hammers after securing some massive signings and at least challenge again for European competition?

There is a strong feeling of utter randomness to the game as it is right now, its hard to fathom out whats actually wrong? i understand that in RL it has happened where a teams tactic has been found out, look at Hull and how they started or Ipswich a few years ago, but there was also obvious issues with player quality, on the whole teams dont change their tactic philosophy year after year(unless they change Managers of course) at the end of the day its the players that make the tactics and if i'm being told that my players have gelled are happy and have great morale, there is'nt a great deal left for me to go on?

Now the point I really want to address. If the game is now based in English (if you want it to be). If it is now possible to make far reaching changes in a couple of clicks, saving time. If you can shout out instructions like a real manager. And if this is all backed up with a more realistic ME. Then what's the beef here?

We were asked to help develop a system that spoke in English to the users. A system which would simplify tactics and allow people to make changes quicker and easier without the need for silly fiddling around with sliders. Which is a DIRECT response to people like those here who have bemoaned the state of the game.

Seriously. What is the problem?

I would have thought any system that made Richard and I redundant and made him **** off out of your lives would gain your approval?

Hey Millie, no time no speak, hope you are well?

As far as i can see mate there are still a couple of issues outstanding, not so much about the Tactical Wizard which may well be a great inclusion, but things like....

Time

I hear what you say about a couple of quick clicks when it comes to shouting out to your team to go more defensive, but the real issue with time is that there is obviously now a need to watch these games in much more detail to be able to make the click that shouts out that instruction, that takes up more time for a start.

Another issue with time, is the growing necessity to have to change/tweak tactics so often in a game, this all takes time too and may well see people going from being able to play 5 or 6 games a night to just 1 or 2? In fact, i'd bet that a lot of people dont even watch some games at all, maybe they are getting their kids ready for bed, or cooking tea, or just having 5 minutes talking to their missus(or Mr) they set the game going and look back in when they have the chance.

These people are going to be massively restricted, as will just about anyone who has a life outside playing FM.

The other issue i thought i would mention coincides to some degree with the new Tactical Wizard.

If you look around the Forum you will see that although a lot of people have no idea how the whole slider system works, they do mostly manage to come across a tactic that at least works for them to some degree.

The difficulty they have is how to tweak things to suit when the AI makes changes?

Will the new Tactical Wizard help in these situations? if so, how?, if not, i can't help but worry that it will actually end up with little use?

I hope you understand i'm just trying to sneak some info out of you while you are here, i'm not grilling you or having a pop or anything mate.

What you are proposing Millie sounds fantastic, but I have to wonder whether it will just end up being a superficial and ineffectual feature that eventually no-one even touches. If the human manager is still handicapped like it currently is (default tactics being horribly flawed for example) then we will be back to square one. For example, if you shout "play more defensive" but the tactical changes the AI makes for you are utterly inept (leaving forward runs on fullbacks perhaps) and consequently leaves you with a weaker setup than what the AI has then it would be redundant functionality.

What needs to happen is for the game to be brought to a level playing field, which might make it much easier out of the box but you should then have the ability to use your own custom tactics, and create your own "shouts" from the touchline to activate a certain tweak or tactic. It would be nice if you could load a tactic, assign a shout to activate it and then assign a hotkey to that shout. Then imagine you are watching the game and press the number 1/2/3 etc. on the keyboard which results in the change being made without even needing to hit the tactic screen. Once again, if the underlying default systems are still handicapped it would not help the casual gamer whatsoever.

Difficulty should be something the user opts into, not something that is forced from the outset and only alleviated by spending hours upon hours studying guides and documents followed by a painstaking process of trial and error to get an idea of how the match engine is constructed.

I know this displeases the analytical types, imagine noobs flooding into the forum with screenshots of their "UNBEETN SESN WIV MAN UTDDZ1111!!1". I used to want the game to be ridiculously hard as well, but that was when I was younger and had time to burn. Nowadays my philosophy has changed and I think I speak for many people when I say that it has now got to the stage where almost no enjoyment can be obtained from this game if played in a casual manner.

but nevertheless I think I'll give it a shot when this season is over.

Please do that and don't talk to me again until you have.

Ov Collyer - It sounds good mate, really it does.

I think one of the main worries about future games is that its going to become harder and harder for the "casual gamer" those who have a job, family or at least a bit of a life away from FM to find the time to actually play?

wwfan has informed us that there is an effort to rid the game of effective single tactics and instead implement a system in which it becomes necessary to have to tweak your tactics as the game progresses and whilst i do agree that that would in fact certainly be realistic and comparable to RL, this need to have to watch games in more detail than ever before to make such changes, means that those of us who just do not have much time to spare thanks to life getting in the way, may no longer be able to enjoy FM at all.

I just wondered if you had any thoughts on this at all?

Waste of time, they need to fix the underlying flaws before working on a shiny new front end for creating tactics, this is just a façade to appease the people who are unhappy about what the game has become.

Also, I don't think wwfan and company can any longer deny that they are directly involved in the development of the game. That means from now on Football Manager is going to be modelled around the views of people that think you need a phd in the match engine to have any form of self-derived success, and if you don't have time to spend hours analysing the ai model you will be forced to use in game wizards or follow 50 page user guides just to give you a slim chance of competing. What's the bet that even after this new wizard is created (which I presume will just be a graphical version of the TT&F spreadsheet) the same problems still persist? The same inbalances and match engine flaws and anomalies will still dog the game, because even following the advice of TT&F it doesn't represent a realistic management experience at the moment.

This, in my opinion, is the final nail in the coffin for FM. Instead of consulting UI and usability experts for the actual front end and real tactical experts for the match engine, they are consulting these pseudo-scientific frauds who want to mould FM into their own fetishistic tactic simulator. Do you not wonder why the people that are involved in TT&F are never complaining about the match engine but always sticking up for it, without fail, whatever the argument against it? Despite it's obvious flaws? This is because they are actually creating it to their own tastes and specifications and anyone who opposes this tide of change simply "doesn't understand football".

I'm not being fooled by these gimmicks and neither should you, don't just sit back and watch them destroy the game.

Fantastic post m8!

Spot on!

I think this new system could make switching tactics on the fly so much easier. That problem is easy to solve, it's the fact it's such a lottery as to when is the right time to change and what set you should go to. For example if you go to counter when 1-0 up because you are the stronger team but concede because you've invited too much pressure so should have gone balanced, things like this necessitate watching the game on extended highlights at the bare minimum. This is what needs to be looked at in my opinion, if you are forcing the use of tactical sets, at least make the changes required to utilise them effectively more logical - and of course, the usability needs to drastically improve. I think a real drive to address these core problems could make the next version far more accessible and playable for all types of gamer. Surely this is not just in the best interest of the fanbase but SI as well, who will benefit in terms of reception and sales.

As I mentioned before, what it boils down to is that difficulty, or high difficulty, should be something you opt into, not something that is enforced from the outset. It's the equivalent of FIFA forcing all users to play on full manual passing and not allowing any ability to put it back to auto. In reality all the controls are set to automatic and the user has the ability to choose whether they want shooting to be semi-automatic or manual, for example. This is really an ideology that SI need to adopt if they want to make the game flexible and adaptable enough for everyone to find it equally enjoyable, not just the select few who see the game as a hobby rather than a source of entertainment.

I'll try to explain what the problem is the way I see it. It feels like a Chessmaster game where the only available opponent is Kasparov and doesn't even give you a tutorial (not as if it would do much good against him but anyway). Or maybe a PES game where you actually have to control the ball with your own feet and shoot it and all that. I know I'm not good enough to be a real life football manager, same as the vast majority of the players I suppose. And I can live with that. I play a game that should be handling the technical details for me, I say what I wanna do in rough lines, the game does it and I get to see my vision implemented by the engine in a realistic manner.

Managing a team should be about making decisions on the players you wanna use and how you wanna approach the game (attacking, defensive, etc). It's fine to lose against a team and think maybe I shouldn't have played so carelessly on attack or maybe I shouldn't have used this really tired striker. It's kind frustrating when after every game you keep thinking that you don't know how on earth you can tell your team to play defensively or how to explain to your 50mil striker that he shouldn't be playing like a part timer. This shouldn't be my job, it's the game's job to translate my vision to it's game engine.

It's always a big plus for a simulator to have a huge amount of micromanaging options for anyone willing to mess with them but it's an even bigger minus -a gamebreaking one- if there's no option to ignore them. As I said, I know I'm not good enough to be a real life football manager and why should I be; chances are that if I was I wouldn't be sitting in front of my monitor anyway.

There's been some good posts on this thread today.

I can see where irt3hown is coming from when he mentions difficulty levels, but personally i'm not a fan and i dont think that SI will ever go down that route anyway.

I dont like easy and hard, i probably would'nt bother playing if i thought i was only winning because i'd opted for easy.

I have suggested another idea, this would be for those of us who would struggle to find the time to play should the need for constant tweaking become a necessity?.

This idea would be to further utilise the Ass Man to make in game tweaks for you if instructed? this would amount to a turn on/turn off option if you dont have the time to watch games in such detail and any changes he made would be keeping with the overall structure of your initial tactic and the validity of his choices would be based on his actual skills?

I dont even know if thats possible or how difficult it would be to implement? its just one idea.

I've been reading this thread with considerable interest. I've mentioned before that a feature that genuinely aids those who currently struggle to understand the sliders and tactics, can only be a good thing.

I would like to point out something that is purely my own personal opinion...

...there's a great deal more to FM than just the tactics.

No matter how you set up your tactics, tweak them or play at Peter Snow's Election Night Swing-O-Meter with them (people outside the UK won't get that one ), you've also got to have the right players playing (key player attributes in positions and roles), manage team-talks and the media, suitably set training, etc... etc...

I regard tactics as only one part of the game as a whole. Although obviously quite important, any tactic is only as good as the players you have and how you manage those players over the course of each season. Let's face it, it's fair to assume that a tactical system built for a team like Man Utd or Barcelona, might not work with someone like Stoke City or Málaga and the players they have available.

I believe it's possible to reverse what seems to be the current trend for those struggling to work with tactics. Build or download a tactic, understand how it works, either from your own footballing knowledge or information provided by whoever has uploaded a tactic, then build your team around it and stay with it. In a way, it's similar to the old days of FM/CM where tactical options were limited to a few "set" tactics and everyone tried to sign the best players available to suit their tactic. It's not really any different in some respects now. Building a team around a tactic means if you do need to make any tweaks or changes during games, they are invariably only minor and simple to apply.

There you go, my thoughts. Flame away as you see fit...

Please do that and don't talk to me again until you have.

You're such a delightful person, I can never stop talking to you. Get off your high horse, will you?

As far as i can see mate there are still a couple of issues outstanding, not so much about the Tactical Wizard which may well be a great inclusion, but things like....

Time

I hear what you say about a couple of quick clicks when it comes to shouting out to your team to go more defensive, but the real issue with time is that there is obviously now a need to watch these games in much more detail to be able to make the click that shouts out that instruction, that takes up more time for a start.

Personally, I'm not sure that this is the case. Partly because the "default" tactics that the wizard creates are a lot more logical and sound than the defaults provided for FM09, and secondly because if the ME improves in its feedback (both visual and verbal) we can start to eliminate this need. I, personally, think people should be, at least on some level, be aware of a change in stance being needed to wrap up a game, or really take the game to the opposition.

This can only be countered, however, if there's more transparency on the AI's end. For example, we really need to stop the AI playing crap for 70 minutes and moving to 4-2-4 and pasting everyone. The fact that you can counter this isn't the point. It should, with this system, but much easier to spot what the AI has done, respond AND the damage should be less.

That's my aim, anyway. I can't speak for anyone else. But to make that change (once you've got to know the game mechanics) shouldn't be too difficult. I hope it isn't.

Long story short - I think it will necessitate watching games on key highlights (or more until you've learned how the AI operates), but I really hope that by simplifying the system and making it in plain football speak we can make that process far less painful, and therefore take far less time. And you can rattle through the seasons again acheiving a reasonable level of success.

Better success with smaller teams should take more initiative (in my opinion) and by keeping the classic system in the background, I hope people can still do that, if that floats their boat.

Another issue with time, is the growing necessity to have to change/tweak tactics so often in a game, this all takes time too and may well see people going from being able to play 5 or 6 games a night to just 1 or 2? In fact, i'd bet that a lot of people dont even watch some games at all, maybe they are getting their kids ready for bed, or cooking tea, or just having 5 minutes talking to their missus(or Mr) they set the game going and look back in when they have the chance.

Again, the necessity for micro game management (which I never saw, tbf, but that's a separate issue) should dissipate. Unless there's an underlying flaw with your squad/match plan. The changes should be simpler, more logical and quicker to make.

If any are needed at all. We all know some people do pretty well on one tactic. Not everyone uses tactics sets, nor should they need to. This system creates (or can create) ONE tactic, to which you can shout the changes to counter the opposition before and during the match.

Which is why this:

Managing a team should be about making decisions on the players you wanna use and how you wanna approach the game (attacking, defensive, etc). It's fine to lose against a team and think maybe I shouldn't have played so carelessly on attack or maybe I shouldn't have used this really tired striker. It's kind frustrating when after every game you keep thinking that you don't know how on earth you can tell your team to play defensively or how to explain to your 50mil striker that he shouldn't be playing like a part timer. This shouldn't be my job, it's the game's job to translate my vision to it's game engine.

Is precisely the point we made to SI, the point SI made to us, and what we've been trying to do together. Tell your striker to play like a deep-lying striker or play like a target man - you can do that with this particular verbal instruction, rather than scratching your head over sliders. That is the idea.

The other issue i thought i would mention coincides to some degree with the new Tactical Wizard.

If you look around the Forum you will see that although a lot of people have no idea how the whole slider system works, they do mostly manage to come across a tactic that at least works for them to some degree.

The difficulty they have is how to tweak things to suit when the AI makes changes?

Will the new Tactical Wizard help in these situations? if so, how?, if not, i can't help but worry that it will actually end up with little use?

The wizard is only part of it. The second part is the overlaying instructions. So, for example, if I shout out to my players "tighten up", the system will change the tactic's width and closing down settings to make the team play tighter and try and restrict the opposition's space. That can work with any tactic, wizard-created or not.

Granted, it may not work to 100% efficiency from the off, but this is what beta is for. If any of you are interested in testing it, I refer to Ov's post.

I hope you understand i'm just trying to sneak some info out of you while you are here, i'm not grilling you or having a pop or anything mate.

I know. Although I've disagreed with some of what you've said (how many times have we gone down that road? ) I appreciate you actually engaging with me, rather than just shouting. Like some. No names mentioned.

The other post that caught my eye was this one:

What you are proposing Millie sounds fantastic, but I have to wonder whether it will just end up being a superficial and ineffectual feature that eventually no-one even touches. If the human manager is still handicapped like it currently is (default tactics being horribly flawed for example) then we will be back to square one. For example, if you shout "play more defensive" but the tactical changes the AI makes for you are utterly inept (leaving forward runs on fullbacks perhaps) and consequently leaves you with a weaker setup than what the AI has then it would be redundant functionality.

Don't take this the wrong way, but that's why we were called in. To make sure these silly things like fullbacks on FWRs weren't in there. Another at least two rounds of beta testing (one for FML, one for FM10) will further iron out the creases. The system is actually reasonably clever about how it changes instructions dependent not just on formation, but the different roles you've assigned players, passing style, framework etc. etc. etc. I hope you guys get to see it in action soon through other blogs etc. on FML, because I'm surprised at how well Ov's coded it. It's much, much better than that shitty Exel spreadsheet I made 9 months ago.

What needs to happen is for the game to be brought to a level playing field, which might make it much easier out of the box but you should then have the ability to use your own custom tactics, and create your own "shouts" from the touchline to activate a certain tweak or tactic. It would be nice if you could load a tactic, assign a shout to activate it and then assign a hotkey to that shout. Then imagine you are watching the game and press the number 1/2/3 etc. on the keyboard which results in the change being made without even needing to hit the tactic screen. Once again, if the underlying default systems are still handicapped it would not help the casual gamer whatsoever.

Two excellent points - 1), that's the point of the wizard and new UI, to produce better "out-of-the-box" tactics. Even if you just pick a formation and leave everything else the same, the idea is that this default TT&F wizard tactic should be reasonably solid for what it is. The user can then add extra bits or delve "under the hood" and change the sliders himself to really hone it to his wishes. 2), user "shouts" is a brilliant idea. It will be interesting to see how that would work in the game, or if the wizard actually covers so many of these options that these become redundant. But in any case, that's defintely something I'll log for a potential suggestion.

---------------

Basically, we're trying to "bring back the fun" by reducing the need for constant micromanagement and slider confusion. That's what we're trying to do. And we're happy to listen to any other ideas on how we can do that. What I would prefer, however is that people attacked the system for the system being sh*t rather than attacking it becasue it was made with mine and wwfan's help.

A few things need clearing up:

1: The arrows were removed from FML because they made playing in a live environment totally farcical. This highlighted just how much development the ME needed for it to become a realistic simulation of a football match. 8-1s and 6-4s needed to stop being commonplace. In response to this problem, I suggested the arrows were removed, and, after much debate, SI agreed that it would make the ME better and enhance overall playability.

At no point did I suggest they should be removed because I gleefully anticipated it would handicap people who might possibly be better at FM than I am. Until I went into an FML environment, I hadn't even though about arrows. However, they made FML unplayable. Therefore, they went. 100% a game-playing decision. Nothing to do with personal feelings of tactical superiority or wanting to undermine people that I have supposedly called 'cheats' in the past. That's all in your own mind I'm afraid.

2: As is my supposed change in persona. I have suddenly shifted from being helpful to being critical of tactical approaches that offend me!! Show me where!! I do suggest that issues people are having are tactical related and explain in detail how to solve them, but am constantly shot down by unsubstantiated and poorly-constructed argument about how I'm wrong and the tactics are fine, and it is the game or ME that is broken. The common argument is that 'my tactic should ensure I finish top five but it doesn't and I'm upset. I also lose games I should have won.' I'm sorry, but why should such a ill-thought through idea (especially when the tactic in question is not just flawed, but we know explicitly where and how) be given significant weight in the continued development of the game?

3: The 'casual gamer' versus 'hardcore gamer' argument. I'm getting increasingly fed up with this. It seems to me that the definition of 'casual gamer' is someone who wants to win with little or no effort (i.e. load up a tactic, buy a few players, play a match, not really watch it, win 75% of the time), whereas 'hardcore gamers' look at every little thing in quasi, or perhaps pseudo, intellectual detail, feverishly micro-tweaking sliders and taking hours to get through a match. This is a definition I'm taking from posts coming from self-styled saviours of the game. This is it binary thinking at its most absurd, as it is leaving no room for middle ground players, which is, perhaps, 99% of us. This absolutely highlights the reasons for the wizard being introduced, which is to give everyone in the middle a more enjoyable game-playing experience.

I have no compunction in facilitating FM in becoming too much hard work for someone who isn't willing even to put a modicum of effort into playing it, but likewise, I wouldn't want FM to become a game in which you have to micro-manage in order to succeed. It's all about finding a balance, and the work we've been doing with Paul and Ov is focused on finding it. We are attempting to make the system easier to understand for the more casual player without losing the complexity that appeals to the more serious player. We might well fail. But to be openly attacked and personally insulted for doing so by people who are claiming to be speaking for the mythical 'majority of FMers' and haven't even bothered researching exactly what the wizard is about leaves a bad taste. Join the Beta and test the system. If you still think it sucks and is a Machiavellian attempt to ruin FM for 'casual gamers', then your opinions will have some weight. Until then, do me a favour and post with some civility and politeness and respect that your critique is based on nothing more than the pre-conceived assumptions about what we are doing and what I am like, neither of which have any basis in reality.

wwfan i agree with most but point 1 playing with ronaldo as a amr with a side arrow ment cut inside now i've got to do so many things just for him to try it.

point 3 agreed but my dad a casual gamer just can't get in to fm at all and still plays 01/02 me as a hardcore gamer wants fm to work but it seams you have to jump through hoops for anything to work, for me fm is the only game i buy for the pc having paid my £25 then having to jump through hoops again for it just to load up is another matter.

i still think tactics need to be made as simple as in real life scrap ind mentality because for me it's a player thing example need a goal take carrick off put scholes on (but not against fulham) scholes more attacking minded than carrick.

like in real life fergie plays fletcher park anderson tavez rooney in the big games is because of work rate but still plays the same type of football.

creative freedom should go aswel only because you start with creative players to get you a goal or put creative players on as subs to try and get you a goalor if wining you put less creative players on to see out the game.

passing sould go aswel, but would be good to change before game example look there left back bombs forward so hit long balls over the top

tempo we should be able to set but it would be nice to lose like in real like when the manager says we just couldn't get our tempo going (off day)

width we can set but players will decide in the end, would be nice to shout hug the touch line or get closer together

closing down again should be for the player, try getting berbs to move in real life is hard to do, but again i should be able to shout at him from the touchline.

timewaisting should be set from about 25-30 mins into the game

defence line should be up to the manager but not 1-20 you should be able to warn your player xxxx is a fast striker so drop deep ex and be able to push us but not 1-20 just a simple deep normal offside trap would do.

plus freekicks and corners and throw ins should be changed to winning losing or drawing.

Pele, you can be assured that the new system will make it much easier for you to come to grips with such things. That's the whole point.

@ Others: It never surprises me when a nasty, vindictive poster turns out to be the alias of another nasty, vindictive poster. Should have twigged earlier. Sorry for my curt responses, but now I know who it was that was trying to wind me up, looking back I think I was quite reserved.

wwfan i don't need it to be easier just the lack of people playing at my ends a killer we would have a network of ten people playing now no network at all i'm the last man standing :-(