Football Manager 2009: Where I have felt let down.

[ViG1980]

this is a very high priority area for fm2010.

sweet.....

[peter-evo]

This is a very high priority area for FM2010.

Fantastic news Paul

[SFraser]

I have to ask the question - what is SI's aim with this game? What kind of game are they trying to create? If it's a career game then this is pretty bad. If they want something where you just play a few seasons and then start with a new team then that's fine - it's just not what I am looking for.

What if their aim is to develop a match engine that produces a simulation of football that is enjoyable to watch in detail and becomes "the meat" of the game so to speak?

I find that the more I watch the full match replays and tweak settings and experiment with players and tactics that the greater my appreciation of the match engine itself becomes, and greater becomes the quality of the football I play.

Just recently I was becoming a bit bored with the awsome goals scored by my front pair and felt that I had clearly developed a strike partnership that would lead me to continued success, but I was left feeling underwhelmed by the quality of my team play in general. I started to experiment with quality players in CM with high teamwork, and grappled with the issue of closing down to attempt to produce a solid central unit, and lo and behold my high teamwork central midfield pairing starts moving up and down the pitch in complete unison, closing down and cutting off angles in tandem, and producing yet again results that leave me fascinated and enthralled by the capabilities of this match engine. You would think that putting the positionally inept Wayne Rooney in CM is a recipe for defensive disaster, but paired with a near max teamwork high quality DM and suddenly it is like having Mascherano in your side, or the Keane/Scholes partnership.

You would think that after 2 seasons of full match replays of every game that I would be getting bored of the same players and the same systems and the same challenges and the same actions on the pitch, but I keep learning more about the ME and I keep realising I can do more with my side, I can develop my team better, I can score better goals, I can tighten up my defence and construct legendary midfield partnerships, I can make the football look better and I can increase my own enjoyement of this game. Maybe people don't buy into the whole match engine business, but if the premise of development of this excellent footballing simulation is the simulation of the match day, match influence and the representation of football matches then to be honest I am not overly dissapointed with long term purchasing issues or ten season boredom, because I am too interested in the virtual mechanics and representation of the football match.

I am not disregarding the issues you raise and they are certainly valid, I am only praising the quality of the match engine and stating how much I enjoy exploring the minute representation of football, rather than the longterm representation.

[PaulC]

This is really a discussion for the beta forum

[crouchaldinho]

Point taken. I will move it there.

[peter-evo]

Just thought I'd update you all and explain that the issues on the front page have continued to plaguerise me and that is why I have put Football Manager 2009 away for the last time.

[Ryknow]

Good post

I dont agree with the career game thing entirely. Im in 2019 and really enjoying it, but Im at my favourite club. I dont feel as each season is a new game because I have young players. You watch them grow and you start to know all your players strengths and weaknesses pretty well.

There needs to be work done on AI team building as some teams just don't strengthen such as Man Utd

Implementing your suggestions and other peoples suggestions would make career games even more enjoyable

Your point about Gerrard, Lampard, Ronaldo still playing in their 36+ years I agree and disagree with, look at Maldini IRL for example. If AI team building is improved, so the manager AI realises that regens are good then I think this problem will solve itself.

[velonce]

Can I just say that I love the response this thread is getting from SI. Despite some issues being hard to fix, at least it shows that you're trying.

On another note, can I add that I'm really frustrated with the processing power required to run FM09. My laptops 2 years old and it sounds like it's about to take off while running. It's not just match day which is slow, pressing continue takes multiple times longer than it did in FM07/08. The key inclusion to 09 is the 3D match engine. Although action games such as Pro Evolution is much better graphically, it takes no where near the strain on my laptop as it does than FM. The huge amounts of calculations involved in the ME probably plays a part, but I'm annoyed that it seems to slow the entire game down dramatically.

It's a bit like me complaining that I can't play the newest Pro Evolution on a gameboy, so I should get an actual PC. However, my laptop isn't that old and could run the previous 2 incarnations of the game smoothly. FM09 is arguably very similar to those 2 so why is there such a huge jump in processing power required that I have to put the game back on the shelf?

[crouchaldinho]

velonce - absolutely the same for me. Speed (or a total lack of it) one of the biggest issues on FM09 when FM08/07 flew on my laptop.

C.

[peter-evo]

I struggle with speed on occasion aswell. I didn't notice immediately but it started to really slow down my machine after about 2012 and my machine should run the game comfortably for many more years than it did.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

In reply to the OP I dont feel let down by SI over FM09 except for the DRM issue which was the Mother of all Shambles', and before I get hung drawn & quartered for bringing that old chestnut up again, I will draw your attention to the Historical phrase: "lest we forget" !.

Moving on my main issues with FM09 are:

*3d: I love it..... but I had a few big top football moments which really spoilt the game for me. Players made match losing errors that I have never, never seen in all my years of footy watching IRL.

* The underdog issue: If the bookies say you will win easily expect to stuggle!. Of course the oppos will be defensive but why do they always grind out the result?

*stickability: Come Summer I am back playing CM0102 again, with real football off the agenda FM seems a bit too heavy so I need a lighter fix - goes better with watching the T20 cricket at the same time.

*widescreen compatability: Big joke, widgets change position randomly when I make substitutions or any other tactical adjustment. I admit I didnt upgrade patches beyond 9.02 but it should have been sorted way before 9.03 and I am sceptical that issue has been resolved even now - apologies if I am wrong.

Also reflecting on the OP I disgree with the training comments, & I feel that training is very effective & important - for the right players - it is just a pain to set up each schdule and not as intuitive as it need be. We used to have, CM04/FM05(?), the routines & set periods of time during the week which was great eyecandy or at least was more interesting but it was a bigger pain than FM09 to set up but it would be nice if the "FM09 slider set schedules" translated into what routines are carried out & when. A cosmetic thing but it would be nice.

Also the comments about a career game are fascinating - I always play one season then set up again for a new club only to do the same again after a season. the OP hit the nail on the head as to why I do this, I had never realised.

Lastly, we know a set piece designer would exploit loopholes in the AI, and may imbalence set plays, so it is not feasible at present - but then why did the corner bug slip through the net? - exactly the thing SI were concerned about creating.

Hope this has been in the right tone, still think FM09 is the best FM yet but I need it to addict me more, it needs some of the CM0102 magic that is currently missing.

[peter-evo]

Nice post tigerhgrrrr.

With the 3D; the thing you described is a big killer. The amount of stupid mistakes that are hidden in 2D just ruins the experience. It is so frustrating to watch and you often leave yourself scratching your head.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Nice post tigerhgrrrr.

With the 3D; the thing you described is a big killer. The amount of stupid mistakes that are hidden in 2D just ruins the experience. It is so frustrating to watch and you often leave yourself scratching your head.

Thanks peter evo, to be honest some of those errors were in the 2d too, you know where a defender or keeper holds the ball until tackled resulting in a goal, and that was bad enough. Even in SI's CM days you would be watching the commentary text on slow so you get the whole test "match story" and suddenly someone scored when there seemed no danger but your mind kind of filled the gap between "safety" and "Goal!!" by imagining a scenario where a sensible goal could be scored. SI could defend this flaw with FM09 / 3d (or even 2d) by pointing out that the mind can bridge those gaps and smooth the flaws in a way that a 100% visible action sequence cannot but the particular FM09 moment that got me was when my keeper, under no pressure, wide of the 6 yard box and 20 yards from anyone, headed the ball right in front of goal and fell over leaving a tap in when the ball to him was an aimless lob from midfield. Unbearable!, big killer indeed, especially when you have to work so hard to out wit the AI in the first place.

[silva_gunner]

For me the main problem with 09 is speed. I think that next year (or the year after) you should be able to install a streamlined version with no 3d etc. just to make it run faster.

[chopo]

Credit to the OP for a post which generally sums up how I fell about this game. Here are some of my thoughts.

The look and feel:

Agree completely that it needs an overhaul, though this is down the list of priorities for me.

Training:

One area that I absolutely cannot stand as it fits into the game at the moment, perhaps the best example of the game as hard work without any redeeming 'fun' features at all.

Set-pieces:

I've yearned for an editor for a few years, the highly knowledgeable wwfan seems to think it impossible (for reasons which I am happy not knowing) but something approaching this is a must. As the game has developed into the complex beast it is today I feel the set piece options have not kept pace.

Tactics and their relation the Match Engine:

Exactly the same as the OP, I always felt pretty good at developing a tactic: kept it simple, knew what I wanted to achieve and had good results up until last year. This year however I have really struggled, which of course is a failing in me when others have achieved but maybe I don't want it to be this painful. I want to think about how my team will play, put these ideas into a tactic and see the results. I don't want to be confusing myself with dozens of different sliders, the slightest nudge of which can seemingly turn a team of world beaters into a pub side. Again this is where, for me, it gets away from being a game and too far into the realm of hard work. I'm sure people still enjoy it as I did when people first started saying this to me a few years ago but I can only speak from my own experience.

The lack of incentive to play a career game:

I have always played careers, it's the part of the game I've always most enjoyed and I agree more could be done to make this a more rewarding experience. Player and manager relationships for one. The whole 'backroom staff' thing works quite well but the relationships with other managers just has not developed whatsoever, having been in the game for a good few years now.

This isn't intended as a rant, a dig or anything similar. I have played this game and CM before it for more of my life than I'd be proud to admit but for the first time this year I've started to wonder whether I've grown out of it, or more accurately: the game has outgrown me. Too many aspects of the game are a chore: press conferences, team talks, the aforementioned tactics and training headaches. The only aspect of the game I now truly enjoy is building a squad, buying and selling players. I understand there are doubtless a lot of people who would disagree with this and tell me to go and play LMA or something but I feel a balance needs to be struck between detail and genuine enjoyment.

That said, I will no doubt start getting excited about FM10 as bits and pieces start getting mentioned on here and the football season looms large.

[wacman1389]

Just my 2 cents......

My main problems with FM 09 all derive from one thing: pacing Whenever I start playing a game, I feel like I have to get myself acclimated to the club, which takes a few hours in the beginning of a save. In FM 08 (I only played FM 07 for around 5 or 6 in game seasons), this was the same case in terms of time, but in 09, it almost felt like the beginning of an ordeal.

Every time I'd make a tactic, I'd get excited that it may work......but every time, it didn't really work. A lot of this probably stems from the fact that my computer was really slow with 09, but not 08 or 07. Also, having to read a 50 pg manual kinda sucked. I guess what I want from FM 10 is a more inviting game. I hope that it'll feel more like a video game and less like a job, as that is why we play it.

My suggestions are merely opinion though....

[HarryMills]

The biggest thing for me is the lack of reference to previous seasons and successes or failures, even the press questions are always the same. I want to see the effects of successes or failures in each successive seasons. I won the world cup with England and then when the new season started the FA said they were satisfied with my performance and the fans were cautiously optimisitic!

if you are successful you should become a club/national favourite/legend. Same with players, fans should recognise those who perform in big games and be happy about selling those who dont etc.

Also please massively improve the role of staff and physios and their ability to tell you accurate and useful information.

Do all players have to decrease massively in every area as they age, IRL some just dont very much, e.g Bergkamp, Inzaghi, Maldini, some do.

Why would technique, penalty taking attributes, passing etc ever decrease?

[HarryMills]

Also I know that some on this thread have complained about players going on too long, I've found the opposite, players will naturally go on longer as time progresses as fitness, diet improves and injuries are treated better. Players used to be thought of as finished at 30, but so many players now go on longer; Bergkamp was first choice at Arsenal into mid 30's Lampard's nearly 31 and as good as ever, Maldini was still excellent at 40 (as was Costacurta) Milan won the champions league and World club championship in 07 with a squad filled with over 30's.

That's why I would like to see a more individual response to player's aging, some, with high professionalism who are at clubs with top facilities, like MilanLab, should be able to go on longer than those who rely solely on speed or who are unprofessional.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Set-pieces:

I've yearned for an editor for a few years, the highly knowledgeable wwfan seems to think it impossible (for reasons which I am happy not knowing) but something approaching this is a must. As the game has developed into the complex beast it is today I feel the set piece options have not kept pace.

For what its worth I have mentioned this before and it has got buried away in general topic threads (as indeed this probably will) but it is relevent so I will give my answer to the "Set Piece editor" issue.

I accept Paul C & wwfan's assurances that an editor would imbalence set pieces and cause effectively set piece "bugs" like the corner bug to be creatived so how about this:

*SI creates a few imaginitive set piece routines which are linked to particular coaches (and as such have fixed parameters & are controlled *important point!*).

*When you sign up such a coach that set piece routing is added to your armoury, the execution of it and success of it decided by:

a/ sufficient tactical training,

b/ taker's / participant's technique & ability,

c/ The captains decision whether to empoly it or not (with no prefernces set at present "the captain" decides on kick taker and I presume how the set piece will play (ie long, short etc))

*The AI has no special advance knowledge of these "gifted" coaches so they cannot sign them all up unfairly

*This coaching ability is discernable by analysing coaches via the staff search.

Just an idea but I feel it gives a successful fix short term

[Golaxi]

great points OP. tottally agree. very well layed out and explained aswell. hope your suggestions are taken note of

[peter-evo]

great points OP. tottally agree. very well layed out and explained aswell. hope your suggestions are taken note of

Cheers mate, me too.

[Mike J]

Great thread that deserves a bump I think. There are a couple of areas that I think need improving:

Tactics

SI seem to be aware of this and the issues are well documented elsewhere so there's no need to dwell on this one.

Team talks

The effect these have seems to be a bit ridiculous. Fairly regularly I see teams that have been played off the pitch in the first half come out like men possessed in the second half and play like World Cup winners. The opposite is also true when your team is playing well and the wrong team talk suddenly has them look like they've never seen a football before. This is also partly linked to tactics. The computer has an annoying habit of being ablet o easily change to exactly the right tactics whenever it needs to.

Perhaps my biggest problem here is the lack of options. In a recent game I was playing away to a much weaker side. We played awful in the first half and came in at half-time 2-0 down. I gave them the "Must win" talk and they played OK in the second half and we got a draw. Now comes the problem - I want to tell them the second half performance was good, but still let them know the actual result was unacceptable. I can't do that. In the end I went for "Disappointed" and suddenly half the team get annoyed at the way I talk to them on matchday. I shouldn't worry about what I'm going to say tot he team when 2-0 up at half-time, but again it's a minefield where saying the wrong thing leads to an unrealistic momentum shift.

Press Conferences

God these are dull! I never attend any more because the questions are so repetitive and pointless. I actually find they lessen the feeling of immersion because they feel so fake.

Transfers

In general these are pretty good but there are a couple of problems. First is the situation where clubs continually bid for a player and then the deal is cancelled, over and over again. Last season from the close fo the summer window tot he opening of the January window I had to endure Bordeaux's constant attempts to sign Ljunberg only to have them cancel the deal once a contract was agreed - for 4 months, over and over again! It's similar to the problem of clubs trying to sign players they're not allowed to.

The second major problem is the ease with which some players get unsettled and annoyed. I had a good season last year with a mid-lower table club getting into Europe, with many of my younger players really playing well and now the big teams are after them. That's fine, and to be expected. However, when these teams offer less than the valuation for a 20-year old striker with a great scoring record I don't think he should get so annoyed when I decide to negotiate for a more reasonable price. Why should my players complain about me rejecting an offer that's way below the market value? At least let me talk to him to explain the situation (something like "the money offered was an insult").

Long-term Games

I agree greater immersion is needed. Just something to track your acheivements would be good. Something to mark milestones and more info about how the squad is progressing is what's needed. Instead of useless monthly training reports, why not get semi-regular updates on some of the younger players so you can then see them improving over the span of several seasons?

So yeah - there's a lot of things that need improving, IMO. Many of them are quite small changes but I think they would lead to very big improvements.

[peter-evo]

Very nice post Mike. I agree a lot with what you have to say, especially with the unsettling of players.

[ChipK]

To the OP: I agree with all of your points so I won't waste peoples time by commenting all of them. You explained them very well.

I have a few things that bothers me as well. They should be regarded as bugs, but since SI didn't fix them in any of the patches I have to add them to my list of things that disappointed me about this version :

Spanish B-teams:

First of all, having B-teams as affiliated clubs was a stupid idea. It makes playing in Spain a nightmare. Secondly, the well known bug where your assistant gives your b-players insane contracts, even though you have unticked the box. How this bug slipped through beta and all the way in to v9.3 I don't know, but it makes it hard to play a small club because your wage budget will be used on crap players on the b-team.

Transfers, co-owning:

Someone has already pointed out how transfers sometimes still are bugged, but I would like to add that co-owning in Italy is very bugged or at least very unrealistic. This has also been pointed out before and not fixed.

Had these things happened in the English leagues this would have been fixed in the first patch, but it seems like players who prefer other leagues are second grade costumers, and THAT is why I feel FM 09 let me down.

[Hamenaglar]

User interface

I completely agree with the OP. fm 2007 had nice colors in UI, it was better designed (it's strange how details can matter). Now I feel like I need a ton of clicks to get through matchday, I don't want that.

Training.

As previous posters said, there was a system that you suggest for CM 4, however it was worse then it was now, simply because we didn't know how much which training regime affected which attribute, it was confusing. Also there were suggestions that training schedules should be rotated often, which was a pain in the arse. Personally I thought a CM 4 training system was a good idea, but a poor implementation. I love the new CM training schedule where you can see which attribute are more likely to improve and how much. As other pointed, if I want to train penalties, I don't want corners and free kicks as well.

Also, it would be nice if training was connected with matches. If I'm training set pieces a lot, I expect my team to get drastically better with time. The thing is the style of play is as much (if not more) a part of training as tactics. Barcelona are so effective at short-passing game because they train that. They train how to move with and without the ball. Integrating ppm into training is a step in the right direction which I applaud.

Set pieces.

Set pieces routines, like the one in new CM, are likely to be bugged and exploited, however it's silly we have so little control over set pieces. Why can I tell my players only to mark short and tall players etc. why can't I make them mark specific players. An example, both ferdinand and vidis mark tall players for me, but I want Vidic not ferdinand marking terry.

Also, perhaps it would be nice if could have at least a large set of default routines from which we could choose for set pieces.

Player Development:

I feel it was very well done in fm 2007, with just perhaps a few. very little tweaks required so that model professionals, such as giggs and maldini, can last a bit longer. But still very well done, just like transfer system for fm 2007, I feel.

Player interaction

Absolutely agree with OP, there is surprisingly little communication with players and staff in general.

Team Talks

Again agree. And again I feel this was done very well in fm 2007, where I was able to get mostly consistent results, a few wonderful reactions. such as mauling united in 2nd half at old trafford with NK Zagreb. I don't mean this as a bragging, but leading at old trafford at HT is a very rare situation. I did something I never did before and the players responded brilliantly. I felt it was a stroke of genious as well as luck, something that just felt right at the moment, but probably would never work in a similar situation. This was completely one off, a unique experience in my entire time of playing fm 2007 and that's what made it so valuable. Ofcourse there were also quite a few times where my team talks didn't work. But overall the results of team talks seemed consistent. However I definetely do feel that we should have more options and be able to combine them.

Also I would like to expand here a bit on the theme of reputation. If you have a manager of small club that mauls united in champions league, you'd expect him to become respected to have some reputation. You'd also think that club would have gain a lot of reputation, particularly if they managed to get consistant and decent results after. I think that reputation system should also be looked at, as I feel it's too static.

[peter-evo]

Another nice post. Agree entirely with the fact that we have very little control over freekicks. It is very frustrating that you can not control the aspect that leads to 33% of goals properly.

[Elrithral]

Set-pieces:

When I think of set pieces, I think of exploitation or possible exploitation. Fact of the matter is, how many ingenious set piece routines do you see every season? I don't think it would be particularly realistic for a manager to have any input into set piece routines, other than telling them whether or not to shot or cross from 30 yards out.

The lack of incentive to play a career game:

Again, sorry, but this sounds like airy fairy highlights to keep the game looking nice, but not particularly realistic. That's not a fun vs realism argument, it's a looking good vs realism argument and there's only one winner. The incentives are success, job progression, better contract and with regards to LLM bettering of your team, self and club. I'm not sure what other incentives real life managers have.

Staff interaction:

Detailed training reports are all well and good, but it's yet another factor that could get boring and follow the Press Conference path. Also, who would actually take any notice of a training report when increase attributes is all you reallt need to know, and it's there to see.

Team Talks:

Team talks are very ambiguous, but you have to admit that they have improved greatly, both in variation and effect, since they were introduced. It's all about time and whilst we may think that it should be better now or that time isn't adequate excuse, think back to the introcustion of 2D and the reaction it got, then take a look at the CAMRAD thread

[mightymind]

Paul,

Your last answer about the training system for Fm was on 30th of March 2009.

So do you have an update of it at the present time, as maybe we can expect that SI dound the ressources for improving this area for FM2010.

Great thanks in adcance Paul for your reply !

After 3 months

Interesting idea, and we do need to revisit training in the future but for now our resources are being directed towards tactics.....but the more discussion the better on these forums

[PaulC]

We havent worked on training for FM2010, but no doubt it will be up for some new work in a forthcoming version. But no real discussion as yet, too busy with Fm2010!

[RBKalle]

The look and feel:

Every year, the game has got more and more complex and more data has been recorded. Football Manager has always been a 'spreadsheet' type game but over the years the screens have got more and more cluttered and this year has made the game look unorganised and scrappy. The best way I can describe Football Manager 2009's look is like being 'locked in a shed' and the information displayed is often over-bearing. In the future, I would like a cleaner interface and less moments of useless data.

FM is, in my opinion, the least confusing football managing in terms of interface clarity. Sure, it's not perfect, but despite its complexity it's not that hard finding what you're looking for while surfing through menus.

Training:

Or should I say the lack of it? The training system in Football Manager has always been ridiculously vague. The sliders just don't tell me anything and I always leave it alone as it doesn't have as much as an impact than it should. I feel, why some might say it is 'gimmicky', that you should be given a table with each day of the week and a 'morning and afternoon' slot. In these slots, you should be able to pick a focus that would normally be relevant for that position. It would be so that I could put my strikers focus on one-on-ones as my strikers normally miss these. It would give a better chance for me to react to what is happening on the pitch and improve aspects of my play where I am failing.

I disagree here.

I HATE the "diet-style" training organization, I really do. Sliders are indeed vague, but I'd rather have a vaguish interface than being forced to handpick daily schedules for every single player, having to choose among 20+ different training activities.

It's Football Manager, not Training Manager...

Set-pieces:

Set-pieces are a beneficial part of the game for many clubs throughout the world and Football Manager 2009 does not give an easy and efficiant way to build a set-piece routine. This is another graphical suggestion and I feel it is a realistic way to get the most out of your team. I feel that a view of your half should be layed out for both 'attacking and defending' set-pieces where you can put your players and then select their runs. This is the most realistic way to set up good set piece routines. Of course you could choose to man mark and that would make the 'defending set-pieces' disabled.

"The Other Franchise" has a very interesting set-pieces editor... maybe it's worth "borrowing" it

Tactics and their relation the Match Engine:

Every time I set up my tactic for the first time, I have no idea how my team will play. It often takes 7-8 matches of tweaking before I get the team playing the way I want and that is not realistic at all. It has not always been like this, in Football Manager 2007 I found it very easy and quick to build a tactic and know what is was going to play like with minimal fuss. I also feel that SI need to release a clearer guide to their tactics as I shouldn't have to read a 50 page guide to gain an understanding of Football Manager.

Agreed 100%

Thank God FM2010 will have the Tactical Wizard making things easier to understang, hoping the ME will reflect our changes in a more noticeable way

The lack of incentive to play a career game:

To put this simply, seasons never feel linked. I often feel it is like starting a new-game when the new season starts and the previous season is quickly forgotten. Also, I feel that there is no benefits for a manager being at a team for many seasons. Even a statue made for you and big press moments would go a small way to helping me feel a part of the club and it's history

Hmm, my main issue with the career game is the lack of incentive to actually CHANGE club.

Managers can easily stay at the same team forever, unless they do a very bad job, because AI managers will equally stay where they are.

Manager contracts are little more than cosmetic, and renewal comes almost by default.

Player Development:

There is one big issue with Football Manger's player development system is that players can play at top division clubs when, in the real world, they would either be retired or playing at a lower league club. I have seen Gerrard, Torres, Walcott, Bullard, Ronaldo and Scott Parker still playing at big clubs at 36+ and this leads to the regens not getting a real look in until they are in their mid 20's unless they are of exceptional talent.

Player reputation decreases too slowly, and newgens are nowhere near the level of original db players, not even those who are labeled as Wonderkids.

Generation turnover works slow and ineffectual more often than not.

[/b][/u]Player interaction:

Staff interaction:

Team Talks:

I agree here as well.

Interaction is quite limited and the approach too manichean (ie. it's always good/bad, yes/no...)

Private talks with players would be nice, and backroom staff should have more input in team life.

About team talks, I want an intermediate option beteween "pleased" (team will get complacent and relax) and "I don't want your performance to drop" (too pushy, and often it's not needed and could backfire)

Basically I want something on the lines of "it's ok, keep going". Unless that's what "for the fans!" stands for...

[mightymind]

It's not training manager, yes, but what you think the manager is doing everyday with his staff : he is passing more than 50% of his time in the training area, giving advice, talking with the staff and the player, seeing their dayly performances what we r not doinf in FM.

SI has to find out a realistic and complete way for this area, but I agree that better do nothing than something which won't be easy to use and non realistic.

Let's wait fort FM 2011 and see for this area.

FM is, in my opinion, the least confusing football managing in terms of interface clarity. Sure, it's not perfect, but despite its complexity it's not that hard finding what you're looking for while surfing through menus.

I disagree here.

I HATE the "diet-style" training organization, I really do. Sliders are indeed vague, but I'd rather have a vaguish interface than being forced to handpick daily schedules for every single player, having to choose among 20+ different training activities.

It's Football Manager, not Training Manager...

"The Other Franchise" has a very interesting set-pieces editor... maybe it's worth "borrowing" it

Agreed 100%

Thank God FM2010 will have the Tactical Wizard making things easier to understang, hoping the ME will reflect our changes in a more noticeable way

Hmm, my main issue with the career game is the lack of incentive to actually CHANGE club.

Managers can easily stay at the same team forever, unless they do a very bad job, because AI managers will equally stay where they are.

Manager contracts are little more than cosmetic, and renewal comes almost by default.

Player reputation decreases too slowly, and newgens are nowhere near the level of original db players, not even those who are labeled as Wonderkids.

Generation turnover works slow and ineffectual more often than not.

I agree here as well.

Interaction is quite limited and the approach too manichean (ie. it's always good/bad, yes/no...)

Private talks with players would be nice, and backroom staff should have more input in team life.

About team talks, I want an intermediate option beteween "pleased" (team will get complacent and relax) and "I don't want your performance to drop" (too pushy, and often it's not needed and could backfire)

Basically I want something on the lines of "it's ok, keep going". Unless that's what "for the fans!" stands for...

[RT--]

"The Other Franchise" has a very interesting set-pieces editor... maybe it's worth "borrowing" it

"The Other Franchise" managed to show exactly why a set-piece editor is very difficult to do properly. Perhaps they've fixed it since the demo, but there were plenty of videos of people showing just how easy it was to exploit.

[Cougar2010]

Sorry but I don't agree at all with the player development comments.

I'm in 2017 with England so have seen a generation come and go.

In my experience most players decline between 32 & 35 which is realistic, very few outfield players are playing regularly & successfully past 35.

In my game I can think of a handful of exceptions:

Lampard: Played his last game for England at 36 but physical attributes were much reduced, played for Chelsea until 38 but his appearances were very limited only making 5-10 in his final season.

Gerrard: Also played his last game for England at 36 but a shadow of his former self, still playing for Liverpool at 38 but only as a backup.

Ashley Cole: Probably aged the best of anybody, Released by Chelsea at 35 and picked up by Liverpool. Had one good season but is now in the reserves. Physical attributes are still in the 10-15 range.

Barry/Carrick: Both still playing but at lower league level, physical attributes have severly declined in both.

Rio Ferdinand: Bad injury in his early 30s then retired at 35.

Terry: Injured & retired at 35.

Looking around the top clubs there are very few players over the age of 33/34 in the first team squads, maybe averaging one or two per club.

[ViG1980]

Agree with the poster on all his issues.

My biggest gripe for years has been the career game which after 5 years or so is totally boring as teams/AI managers have no idea how to manager their squad and, as you said, all end up with 37 year olds playing and I have all the best teenagers in the world...

This for me is a total game-breaker but SI have mentioned they are looking long and hard at it so fingers crossed!

[Celts1888]

Good post peter-evo and I have to say that I also agree with most points made and im glad we have people like SI/Sega that listen to the masses and hopefully with our help they can make this game get better and better over the next few years.

[Cougar2010]

Agree with the poster on all his issues.

My biggest gripe for years has been the career game which after 5 years or so is totally boring as teams/AI managers have no idea how to manager their squad and, as you said, all end up with 37 year olds playing and I have all the best teenagers in the world...

This for me is a total game-breaker but SI have mentioned they are looking long and hard at it so fingers crossed!

Following on from my earlier post this is exactly what I don't agree with and it doesn't happen on my game.

Now I'm at home I can give some stats.

Gameyear: 2017

Leagues loaded: Most top countries + Gill's ddt file.

From the Premier League I get:

[color="Green"]Team            Youngest  Oldest   Players over 32yo in first team squad[/color]
Arsenal            22       34        3
Aston Villa        23       36        4 (Inc 1 GK)
Blackburn          18       33        1
Bolton             19       35        3 (Inc 1 GK)
Cardiff            22       34        1 (GK)
Chelsea            20       35        4 (Inc 1 GK)
Derby              22       33        2
Everton            19       35        2 (Inc 1 GK)
Fulham             23       34        2
Hull               18       33        1
Liverpool          18       37        5 (Inc 1 GK)
Man City           22       35        2
Man Utd            21       33        4
Middlesbrough      20       33        3
Newcastle          21       34        3
Nott Forest        23       35        1
Portsmouth         19       34        2 (Inc 1 GK)
Tottenham          21       37        6 (Inc 2 Gks)
WBA                22       34        2 
Wigan              19       33        1

I'm managing Blackburn btw for the record.

Now I don't know about anyone else but that seems fairly well balanced to me and I don't see any problems with it.

[peter-evo]

Two of my threads massively bumped over the last two days!

[mightymind]

Paul, for FM2011, do you think this idea is a dream ( see the web site ) ?

See this web site : sorry it's in french but imagine this in Fm training :

- tactical exercices ( left of the site )

- technical exercices ( left of the site )

- phisical excerces ( left of the site )

http://www.entraineurdefoot.com/techniqexo.html

Almost 200 types of diffrent exercices for a real manager to create.

Imagine that you can create your own excercice among 200 of them !!!

A full data base of 200 or more different exercices to choose and plan 10 of them every week in function of what you want and the next match and your philosophy of training?

Miles, Is it a dream or can be realised in a game in the future ?

Originally Posted by mightymind

It used to be done with only 10-20 different exercices.

I'm talking about a full data base of maybe 500 existing exercices in the world and implemente some of them in your team, it will make you feel that you create a specific training system for your team, as you create a team with many possibilities of tactics.

Of course you won't plan in a season all the exercices, as it will depend on your philososphy management.

Do a trainning as many differents ways you want.

Sounds encouraging! Please may you elaborate?

We havent worked on training for FM2010, but no doubt it will be up for some new work in a forthcoming version. But no real discussion as yet, too busy with Fm2010!

[rinso]

Excellent opening post and discussion in this thread, where has it been hiding??? Its the first time I have seen it, and the sort of thread that the forum has been sadly lacking lately.

[arsenal_2111]

Excellent opening post and discussion in this thread, where has it been hiding??? Its the first time I have seen it, and the sort of thread that the forum has been sadly lacking lately.

It's quite an old thread tbf.

[rinso]

It's quite an old thread tbf.

Yeah, I know, that's what I was referring to when I asked where it had been hiding.

[FrazT]

If anyone has an idea for future versions there is a wishlist thread or open a new thread for discussion. We dont need old threads being reopened after 6 months to go over the same ground.