mag man Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 To be honest...with this post you make me (and some other people probably) fell like I was cheated. We all wanted to have 7 stars coaches and nobody told us that it's not their quality. I mean if nothing is changed...and this is just cosmetic, visual change,...you should tell people that 7 stars don't represent quality!!! Shame on SI. Also...give us formula for new system. 7*'s didnt represent quality before, they do now. I highly doubt you will be able to find 7* coaches for every area. Even 6* coaches across the board would be rare. I have been able to get 5* coaches though with all my clubs, even a poor team in the Swiss league. It just takes a bit of trial and error. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ljuba82 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 7*'s didnt represent quality before, they do now. I know, but that was a problem...cause people were thinking all this years that 7 stars represent quality of training. I fell cheated!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathxxx Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Although it's upset people, ultimately it's clearly for the best as you now KNOW if coaches are any good or not. Realistically, the same "what to look for" stats will still apply (and have been posted many times in the Tactics & Training forum), it's just now, you need to bear in mind the additional "mental" atributes whilst searching. Although I was oblivious to the "cosmetic" aspect of coaches being shown as 7* before, personally I've always felt that good mental attributes as well as good technical coaching stats, made sense as something to look for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I know, but that was a problem...cause people were thinking all this years that 7 stars represent quality of training.I fell cheated!!! And no-one complained, the players always improved etc. So think now how much better it can get. Was good before and even better now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron.e Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Yeah now 4-5*'s is a very good solid coaching set-up, whilst 6-7* is world class. Before you may have had seven star coaches but it was really pretty much cosmetic, it now works much better in the sense it gives you an idea exactly the sort of level your coaches and regimes are performing at. At first i was shocked at the change but now i'm glad it's been done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uppercut Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 we need to find out what combination of mental stats (in addition the tech stats) give us what we're after, right now its totally hit and miss unless you know the magic combo of stats. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 we need to find out what combination of mental stats (in addition the tech stats) give us what we're after, right now its totally hit and miss unless you know the magic combo of stats. I tested this a bit and I think there are many different possible combinations. With the old combinations and the best possible mental stats your pretty much guaranteed a 5* coach which is good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathxxx Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Although this is nothing concrete and shouldn't be taken as such, I would consider the following examples as common sense... Tactical = Tactical Coaching + Tactical Knowledge (+ possibly Determination?) Strength = Fitness Coaching + Determination + Motivating (+ possibly Level of Discipline?) Aerobics = Fitness Coaching + Determination + Motivating (+ possibly Technical?) etc... etc... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uppercut Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I tested this a bit and I think there are many different possible combinations. With the old combinations and the best possible mental stats your pretty much guaranteed a 5* coach which is good. this change will be for the better, its just the complexity of this has jumped to a whole new level. hopefully someone can make a mod/skin which will calculate based on stat numbers, how good a coach will be for a certain regime, like how scouts give players stars based on current skill etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Although this is nothing concrete and shouldn't be taken as such, I would consider the following examples as common sense...Tactical = Tactical Coaching + Tactical Knowledge (+ possibly Determination?) Strength = Fitness Coaching + Determination + Motivating (+ possibly Level of Discipline?) Aerobics = Fitness Coaching + Determination + Motivating (+ possibly Technical?) etc... etc... Determination and level of discipline are stats I found to be most important. Motivation and man management which is hidden also have an effect I think and maybe even tactical knowledge. Its basically what we had before with the best mental stats. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathxxx Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Determination and level of discipline are stats I found to be most important. Motivation and man management which is hidden also have an effect I think and maybe even tactical knowledge.Its basically what we had before with the best mental stats. Yup. Common sense stuff really, but something "missed" by many given the cosmetic issue. I'm pleased it's now fixed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkpunk Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I like the changes and thankfully have a couple of 6 star coaches already. I also noticed that the workload for a couple of coaches shifted from Light to Average. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dz47 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 If the new rating system is supposed to provide greater accuracy, then why not have coaches abilities averaged and visually represented by their ‘star value’ for particular coaching roles rather than stats, as currently happens with players? Surely this would make everything clearer for the player. This may well be a good change in the longer term, but seems to me that this is a pretty dodgy way of implementing a change in a final patch. If it was so important that it needed to be fixed, then either fix it properly (ie stars only) or wait until Fm 10 when we’ll all know what we’re in for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maz Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 you know if you really need 7 star training then have a look at these 3 coaches and using their attributes you can find out how to get 7 star training ze mario: gk coach 7 stars valter di salvo @ real madrid fitness valdir de moraes @ palmeiras gk or ball control these 3 are the only 3 i've found with 7 stars Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crafty bison Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 we need to find out what combination of mental stats (in addition the tech stats) give us what we're after, right now its totally hit and miss unless you know the magic combo of stats. Doesn't it say in the manual? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yonezzz Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I'm confused. Are my 9.2 seven-star coaches not the best, then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hattijr Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 S Naylor -GK 7* R Moniz -Set Pieces or Ball Control or Shooting 6* Juanvi - Shooting 6* M Chamberlain- Ballcontrol 6* A Renshaw-Strength or Aerobic 6* Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSGTroyer Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I'm confused. Are my 9.2 seven-star coaches not the best, then? More than likely, not even close. And to think, we all thought they were.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoopaloola Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Vincenzo Pincolini is a 6 star fitness coach Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
begilsson Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Is it just me or does the board now allow you to sign more coaches? I now can have 26 coaches, last time i was searching for coaches (about a year ago) i could have 14 or something.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dz47 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 The more I think about this, the more annoyed I am with SI on this one. Why have they sat back and allowed the misguided ‘general consensus’ of users on this forum (and the flow on to other fm forums) to continue relating to 7 star coaches, and not corrected it previously? I for one put a lot of time into selecting the right ‘7 star’ coaches in the belief that what I had was the best staff for developing the players at my club, which in turn is a critical element of an FM game IMO. Sure, if I could find staff with the ‘right’ technical stats AND good mental/man management etc stats then I would get him if possible, but of course these kinds of staff are few and far between, and hard to attract. Why change it now SI when a lot of your customers are well into saves with staff that they may no longer want to keep, or may not be in a financial position to replace with ‘proper’ 6-7 star staff? Like I said before, this may well be a good change in the long run (you know, the fact that we NOW know what actually makes up a top class coach), but the timing is well off. Poor form SI, here I was thinking you were 7 stars, but you are actually only 5!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoopaloola Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?p=2786147#post2786147 started a new thread for collecting a list of the best coaches for 9.3 which will obviously become easier to compile once some sort of formula is worked out for how they become 6 or 7 star coaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoopaloola Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 The more I think about this, the more annoyed I am with SI on this one. Why have they sat back and allowed the misguided ‘general consensus’ of users on this forum (and the flow on to other fm forums) to continue relating to 7 star coaches, and not corrected it previously? I for one put a lot of time into selecting the right ‘7 star’ coaches in the belief that what I had was the best staff for developing the players at my club, which in turn is a critical element of an FM game IMO. Sure, if I could find staff with the ‘right’ technical stats AND good mental/man management etc stats then I would get him if possible, but of course these kinds of staff are few and far between, and hard to attract. Why change it now SI when a lot of your customers are well into saves with staff that they may no longer want to keep, or may not be in a financial position to replace with ‘proper’ 6-7 star staff? Like I said before, this may well be a good change in the long run (you know, the fact that we NOW know what actually makes up a top class coach), but the timing is well off. Poor form SI, here I was thinking you were 7 stars, but you are actually only 5!!! It does seem an odd time to have changed it rather than to have waited til fm2010 to have sorted this out. It must simply be down to the number of lengthy threads on the subject that have cropped up recently and analysed the whole area and importance of coaching. You may have noticed that no-one (correct me if I am wrong) from SI responded in those threads to fully explain the situation. It would seem to me that for better or for worse, this change regarding the staff star rating system is their response to those aforementiioned threads. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yonezzz Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 More than likely, not even close. And to think, we all thought they were.... Ok. And forgive my further confusion, but is there now two sets of variables to look out for, ie. workload (light = best) AND high mental stats will give the best training results (and the varying levels of success using multiple variants of either is yet to be determined), or is it still just a case of light workload = best? (And it's what gives light workloads that is still to be determined.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uppercut Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Doesn't it say in the manual? wow thanks for totally missing the point of this thread captain obvious. show me where in the manual it has what stats are needed for 7 star training, taking into account the change made by this patch.. Is it just me or does the board now allow you to sign more coaches? I now can have 26 coaches, last time i was searching for coaches (about a year ago) i could have 14 or something.. if you've finished a season i think its because your club rep might have gone up, if its mid-season, i have no idea! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncherdave Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Agreed the timing sucks. We're all used to being none the wiser and having 7 star coaching throughout but now the cats out of the bag. If this was done for next years game then nobody would really be that bothered (it could even have been hidden under the guise that it is an improved feature! ), but now our saves have 5 star coaches instead of 7. If this can happen what else have SI kept from us? Broken teamtalks? Faked moon landing? Roswell? I don't feel I can trust them anymore. On a slightly more serious note, what will this mean for longterm games? Is the standard of regen coaching going to be anywhere near up to scratch? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Some Guy! Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Well I'm happy that my coaches are running about a 6.5 average. It was 5.3 before, but I've sacked some worthless ones and brought in some new ones. Looks decent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crpls Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Why would SI themselves give out the "equation"? Y'all will have to figure out yourselves (and hopefully not in GD.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uppercut Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 edit: removed my rant and instead.. this change is like crazy rafa (i cant think of anyone crazy enough to use as an example) in a CL final where liverpool are leading, at half time, to quietly whisper in reina's ear that everytime the other team have the ball, that he should take position as 2nd striker but not to tell anyone else about it. for a change that clearly will have a big impact, its something you try for the next match (fm10), not halfway through a current match.. (fm09 patch 930) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard76 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I'm questioning the logic of doing this in the 3rd patch for the game???? If this was going to be changed then it should have happened in the release day patch (9.1.0). I'm probably going to start a new game with 9.3.0 but I can understand a lot of people with long term games will not be pleased about this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Also it seems the Db wasn't updated and so there are barely any coaches with good motivating AND good coaching cos i think motivation was more for assman's. However, i do think this is a much better system generally. I'm looking forward to using the "combination" method mentioned earlier. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uppercut Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 thats the point of my argument, i dont mind that the requirements have been upped and in future its a good thing, but there doesnt seem to be enough staff to be good enough to meet those requirements (at least when bringing the additional the mental side of things into the mix). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlander Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Did anything change from previous versions in terms that coaching stars have absolutely no effect on player improvement? 1star was as good as 7. If nothing changed in this then I don't understand why there is so many fuss about the formula for stars changing if they don't mean much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonW Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 uppercut and Richard76: From what I understand, the effectiveness of the training hasn't actually changed between the patches. It's just the way that the effectiveness is shown that has been changed. So before, we thought our training was the best it could be, when in reality it could be improved. As for the lack of coaches with a combination of coaching and mental skills, has anyone tried combining a coach with good coaching skills (ie. 18+ fitness) with a coach with good motivational skills (ie. 18+ determination or motivation) in a single training slot? I'm hoping the combination of the two would add to a good score. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoIfsong Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I think the answer to the question of the OP is actually in the game for fitness coaching and GK coaching: when you sign a fitness coach, in the news screen it shows 3 stats underneath the picture of the coach: determination, motivating and fitness coaching Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pricey85 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Sweet, finally having seven stars will actually mean something! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uppercut Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 As for the lack of coaches with a combination of coaching and mental skills, has anyone tried combining a coach with good coaching skills (ie. 18+ fitness) with a coach with good motivational skills (ie. 18+ determination or motivation) in a single training slot? I'm hoping the combination of the two would add to a good score. it was suggested further up the thread, i tested it with a tac 18 and a 18 motivation coach.. the motivation coach had 4 stars and didnt increase when the tac coach was added. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonW Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 it was suggested further up the thread, i tested it with a tac 18 and a 18 motivation coach.. the motivation coach had 4 stars and didnt increase when the tac coach was added. It's a bit rubbish if that's the case. As has been said, it's difficult enough to get a coach with good enough coaching skills, let alone motivational ones. Can you remember what their tactical knowledge scores were? That might have an effect on coaching tactics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uppercut Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 It's a bit rubbish if that's the case. As has been said, it's difficult enough to get a coach with good enough coaching skills, let alone motivational ones. Can you remember what their tactical knowledge scores were? That might have an effect on coaching tactics. i think the high tactical person had around 10 for motiviation and the high motivational person had around 10 for tactics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerdMuller Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 So do the stats of the coaches add up or something, as i have 4 coaches doing one part of training and still only 4 stars. (i mean not add up as in a simple addition, but with their best attributes for example.) Also does the automatic coach assignment recognize a decent setup, as it looks a little stranke that my training is 4 stars all the way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mag man Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 It takes into account more than just motivation, you also need good stats in determination and level of discipline. SI havent changed the quality of coaches, if you were happy with job your old 7* coaches were doing when they were really 3/4* then why are you complaining when you now know what there real ability is. This change will allow you to get much better coaches than before because you now know to sign coaches with high mental stats. Ideally this wouldnt have been in the game and would have been fixed before 9.3 but would you all rather have kept the old system and gone on playing with your poor coaches in the belief they were good because the game showed 7*'s Compare coaches to players now. At the top level: a 3* player is decent, the same can be said about the coach. a 4* player is good so a 4* coach is good a 5* player is generally a leading star so a 5* coach would be a leading coach. a 6*/7* players are rare and world class. Again the same can be said about coaches. Another thing is you will find the top coaches hard to get in your 1st season, but go further into the game when regen coaches appear and I think you will b emore likely to get better coaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerdMuller Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 So basically the AI sucks in assigning coaches to the schedule, did it myself now and got loads of additional stars out of it and even didnt use one of the coaches. All workloads on light also which the AI didnt manage with all coaches and way less stars. So can we assume automatic assignment is rubbish, or does the AI know more than we do again? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrock85 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I agree that SI could have waited till FM10 to put in something so drastic but they've already said that the fact that on 9.2 it showed 7 stars didnt actually make them any better or worse than the coaches on 9.3 who now have 4 or 5 stars or whatever. Think of it when you do a scout report for a player and they come back with 4 or 5 stars then you usually sign them up based on the fact that they are good enough and only in special circumstances do u get players who are rated 7 stars and they are generally the very best. Its worthwhile mentioning that I've worked in the coaching departments at 2 football clubs and most coaches really do go through the motions and do bring anything special despite their technical knowledge. Its very rare that there are coaches who people talk about as absolutely great. As an idea to help people out in FM10 maybe you can send your scout or ass man out to find some great coaches for you. Ferguson did it with Steve McClaren when Brian Kidd left if you read The 90 Minute Manager by Bolchover and Brady. Seriously some people on here sound like the Yorkshire Newsreader on Soccer AM, CHANGE IS NOT GOOD! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aoede Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Far as I can tell automatic assignment is rubbish, as you said, I always get more out of my coaches when assigning them myself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyssien Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 The thing is, if we release a patch to fix this, it'll just make the stars back to seven, it won't actually improve your training regime at all. It was a cosmetic fix which has made training take the stats (correctly) into account. You always had poor coaches, it's just now more obvious. "Working with youngsters" is not taken into account then? My coaches have exactly the same stars in the first team and the youth training screen. They do have good grades in this attribute, but not perfect, I would have expected some divergence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luton Town! Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Can someone explain how you work out what "star" your coaches are? ive never understood. Appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
13xForever Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 ok ive just been messing about with coaches havent saved it so what ive done is brought a GK coach with GK 20 (poss highest) and other good mental stats. in the old coaches you could achieve 7 stars with just a GK Stat. as you can see he has 16 in 4 different Mental stats. pretty obv to scrap PA and JA. im not 100% sure but looks like you need good stats in Motivation and Dicipline Along with GK. Maybe a Goalkeeping Formula would be somthing like: GK 20 + Mot and Dicipline must equal 30 min GK 19 + Mot and Dicipline must equal 32 min GK 18 + Mot and Dicipline must equal 34 min only a 6 star coach Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
catafan Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Dose 'Determination' really count now? IIRC in the game manual this attribute is described not relevent directly to coaching ability . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
13xForever Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 btw this is a 7 star fitness coach if anyone wants to know what they look like or wants to compare stats with another 7 star to work out the formula. hes only rated as a 5 star on defensive coach aswell as i intended to buy him as a def coach to the above post i think determination doesent count on any coach i think it muat be mot and dicipline Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoopaloola Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Can someone explain how you work out what "star" your coaches are?ive never understood. Appreciated. There was a formula which you can find if you search the forums, but in any case this formula is no longer relevant as they have changed the way coaching is done for 9.3, so we are trying to figure out the new formula now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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