Best FM?

[TheVerySpecialOne]

What would you guys say? What's the peak FM? I don't want to buy the new FM seeing there are some really big bugs with buying players and how physical attributes are OP etc. I had moderate fun with FM 23, but what would you say, what's the most balanced, stable and challenging version of FM?

Thanks!

[ChaosReiter]

I'll vote for FM05 and FM20

[XaW]

Depends on what you mean by "best". By what metrics? The newest are always the objective best in my opinion, but it's not always the one I had the most fun with.

[Zachary Whyte]

As it my first FM, 2005 always has a soft spot in my heart. 

[gggfunk]

FM 24 is the best, but the most enjoyable for me was FM 14.

[Rodrigogc]

Dearest to my heart: FM06

Best: FM13

Could/Can be the best: FM24

[JAwtunes]

CM2 for the nostalgia

[Ein]

All of them have their ups and downs.

I prefer the new tactical, training and mentoring systems in place from FM19 onwards. However, all of them have some bugs and unbalanced gameplay that remain unresolved to this day e.g. not all training routines actually train the attributes they claim they train, mentors can still gain traits from mentees even when their influenced tab is shown as 'none', technical attributes being much less effective than physical/mental ones, some tactics being too overpowered due to risky mentalities and teams instructions stacking with each other without consequence

I like how physicals decline more slowly in FM22; however, it was overdone and led to issues with the development of young players. I dislike that media interactions were given more prominence (a dedicated screen instead of being able to reply quickly in the inbox). It also had an unresolved bug with automatic generation of staff, even when the option to do so is ticked off. FM20 to FM22 also had that bug with the Club World Cup taking place in summer where the game would still treat the players as being on holiday (not sure if this has been resolved).

I would say the peak for me was somewhere between FM17 and FM20 (though I haven't played FM14 - FM16 so I cannot compare).

Edited February 14 by Ein

[phd_angel]

On 14/02/2024 at 04:16, TheVerySpecialOne said:

What would you guys say? What's the peak FM? I don't want to buy the new FM seeing there are some really big bugs with buying players and how physical attributes are OP etc. I had moderate fun with FM 23, but what would you say, what's the most balanced, stable and challenging version of FM?

Thanks!

FM24. Best match engine and animations. Smooth, balanced and stable. Not perfect though: the scouting system sucks. 

[Arijit]

In my opinion, no version is perfect, and every game has pros and cons. People will answer with their heart, not mind. Everyone has a favorite version, whichever they had most fun with. Objectively, the game has become modern with each iteration. Not all features are liked by everyone. 

As a 43-year-old, I don't have much time for newer FM complexity. I love the simplicity of old FM. So for me, the best game will be either of FM15 and FM17. But I play FM24 currently with lots of streamlining.

As soon as I take over a club, I hire a good assistant coach, a general manager, a chief scout, a technical director (as soon as allowed by the board). Then I delegate training, scouting, media handling, loaning out, contract/offer etc. I just keep the final yes/no of contract negotiations, transfer in/out, in my hand. I only concentrate on tactics, match, youth development - that's it.

[alian62]

The latest installments always win these polls 

[Muja]

In recent times (years, actually), I've taken a nostalgic dive by trying out some of the older FMs, so I've refreshed my memory and can give a more or less objective opinion.
I haven't played them all, and not all for the same amount of time, but I've formed an idea that I'd like to share with you guys.
In chronological order:

FM 07 - very streamlined, similar to what FM mobile is today. The thing that stood out to me in this version is the behavior of AI in transfers: AI buys players mainly (or perhaps solely) based on their Ca/Pa, not based on their reputation. This means that even 20 years into the future, the strongest teams always have the strongest players, they are the first to go after the best wonderkids, and it's really HARD to compete with them in the market (even using external tools like FM Genie Scout) and therefore also on the pitch.
Honestly, I loved this aspect. It makes saves interesting and challenging even in the long term.
Of course, this version lacks many quality-of-life improvements that we are all used to by now.
As for the ME, there's a certain preference for forwards with high jumping reach. A forward with high values in strength and jumping reach is simply UNSTOPPABLE.

FM 10 and FM 12 - I pair these two versions because in my opinion, they are quite similar.
Their strength lies in the ME, which is simply very entertaining to watch - and that's why FM12 in particular is still often considered one of the best.
Technical and creative players reign supreme, but it's especially the pacey forwards who excel, perhaps excessively.
Pairing these two types of players means witnessing penetrating passes that split the defense in half fairly regularly, with the fast forward eagerly breaking through the defense.
Serious flaw: AI squad management. After just 10 years into the future, the quality of the rosters of the strongest teams drops drastically, and it becomes increasingly easier for the player to dominate the league and cups.

FM 13 - this one is the FM in which the true first introduction of the tactic creator occurs.
In reality, the system is still mixed (the sliders are still there), but you begin to see what will become the future of the series.
Additionally, there is an improvement in physics - players now have "solid" bodies, whereas in the past they could run "through" their opponents as if they were ghosts.
Also making its debut, for the first time, is the Director of Football (DoF).
The ME is very balanced: in practice, any type of tactic (catenaccio, counter-attack, possession) can work with the right players and instructions. Nevertheless, it is with this game that the tactical intelligence of the AI takes a leap forward and it becomes necessary for the player to adjust their tactics during gameplay. A sudden increase in difficulty that was traumatic for many players.
I remember very well that it was traumatic for me, and it's also more or less the time when many of my friends, long-time FM enthusiasts, began to abandon the game.
Unfortunately I can't speak more about other aspects of the game - quality of long-term saves or other bugs - because this is the version I've played less.

FM 17 - This is another game that is remembered very fondly by a large majority of enthusiasts.
The reason, in my opinion, is that it's the last FM with faster progression and doesn't require all that micromanagement that will become the norm from FM18 onwards.
Another reason is that the graphics of the ME are EXCEPTIONAL, every stadium looks different, the grass wears out during the match, there is meticulous attention to detail.
Additionally, the players really seem to follow tactical instructions to the letter, and player traits are clearly visible during the match; each player seems truly unique. And while this is true for many older FMs, FM17 is perhaps the last to prominently feature this aspect (in later FMs, all players seem to more or less follow specific tracks, and gameplay actions appear more mechanical).
It's also the last FM where the most technical and creative AMC players are still useful for creating goal-scoring opportunities. From FM18 onwards, central play in the final third will undergo a regression, becoming increasingly rare (and this is a problem that still exists today).
Serious flaws of the ME: there's a bug, which has been improved with subsequent patches but never fully resolved, where players on the flank don't help defend in the middle of the field, making tactics with many central midfielders a bit OP. But what's really OP is playing with three forwards: the way defenders handle the defensive phase makes it impossible to manage a trio with three central attackers; this is somewhat balanced by the fact that the AI itself resorts to three-in-the-front formations when it needs to come back from a result, but overall, it really feels like a cheat code.

FM 18-23 - I group all these versions together not because they are identical to each other (I haven't played them all anyway), but because for me, they mark the beginning of an era that I would call the "age of gegenpress."
While each new version brings improvements to everything that happens off the pitch, all the MEs, more or less, are characterized by the overwhelming dominance of gegenpressing and wing play; as I mentioned before, classic number 10s becomes less and less useful, and in various forums and on Reddit, questions like "my tactic works, but my AMC is always the worst performer, how do I get him to perform better?" becomes increasingly common.

Honorable mention to FM20, for a very particular reason: at some point, the Korean community found a way to modify the ME physics and released "patches" online.
These modifications visibly altered the functioning of the ME itself, but I don't want to get into whether they made it better or worse.
However, it was undeniable that these patches breathed new life into the game, and this anecdote has always made me think that FM could benefit ENORMOUSLY from making the ME moddable.

Finally, we come to FM24.
The progress made over all this time is undeniable. In terms of graphics and animations, this ME is the best ever seen.
The tools available to the player in managing a football team are the most numerous ever, and the level of realism achieved is unparalleled compared to any previous edition.
Even this version has its flaws, particularly some recurring bugs, but there is always hope in the March patch.
Unfortunately, even in this version gegenpress is dominant and, above all, the central attacking midfielder remains rather ineffective in providing assists, with the best scoring opportunities predominantly created on the wings or from set pieces - and I fear that not even the latest patch can solve this issue.
A minor problem, of course, especially considering that classic number 10s are becoming increasingly rare in reality as well - but for those like me who are fixated on that specific role, it's something that prevents me from fully enjoying this latest version of the game.

Final verdict:
Every version of FM has its strengths and weaknesses. I don't think there's anything wrong with preferring to play an older version for one reason or another; the problem often lies in remembering what the real differences are between all the versions of a game that has been around for over 20 years now.
I hope, with this lengthy post of mine, to have been of help in that regard. Surely, someone else might be able to contribute even better.

Edited March 5 by Muja
fixed FM06 to FM07

[Rodrigogc]

16 minutos atrás, Muja disse:

Honorable mention to FM20, for a very particular reason: at some point, the Korean community found a way to modify the ME physics and released "patches" online.
T

I haven't played this FM20 version and was unaware of this Korean thing. Can you elaborate more on that ? I'm asking it because I've always found that FM should be moddable in almost every aspect, and I think this is something that can actually happen in FM25 because Unity engine is the one Cities Skyline, which is a game full of mods, was built from. 

FM community would benefit a lot from it I suppose. 

Edited February 21 by Rodrigogc

[Muja]

18 minuti fa, Rodrigogc ha scritto:

I haven't played this FM20 version and was unaware of this Korean thing. Can you elaborate more on that ?

In practice, these guys had found a JSON file in the game directory that managed some of the ME's physics values.
The file was editable, and by changing these values, it was possible to alter the way the ME itself operated - not in detail, because players' decisions were still governed by their attributes and other parts of the code that were inaccessible, but enough to create visible differences.

18 minuti fa, Rodrigogc ha scritto:

I'm asking it because I've always found that FM should be moddable in almost every aspect

I've always been a big supporter of video games that allow for modding.

Football Manager does that, to a certain extent. Just think about the numerous graphic packs, real names fix, fantasy databases, and last but not least, Daveincid's realism megapack.

But if other aspects of the game - like the ME or the AI's behavior in the transfer market - were to become moddable... Oh, I can only see ENORMOUS benefits from that.

[Rodrigogc]

24 minutos atrás, Muja disse:

I've always been a big supporter of video games that allow for modding.

Football Manager does that, to a certain extent. Just think about the numerous graphic packs, real names fix, fantasy databases, and last but not least, Daveincid's realism megapack.

But if other aspects of the game - like the ME or the AI's behavior in the transfer market - were to become moddable... Oh, I can only see ENORMOUS benefits from that.

Yes, Football is too subjective so I think FM should be even more moddable. I've gotten into skin modification in the last year and modifying my skin gives me a lot of pleasure, but it requires patience and some knowledge that a lot of people are not willing to learn, so they download skins made by other people. But FM is almost a point and click game, there should be a way to edit the information on the screen you want to see and hide the ones you don't care about without having to go deep into skin modification. 

There should be values you could alter as well to make the AI stronger or something like that. I don't if that is possible, but in my opinion FM has reached almost a global community of players, with players ranging from 15 years old to people in their 60s, and that are so many ways to play the game that it is almost impossible to cater for everyone, hence I feel it would benefit even SI if they made the game even more moddable, because people would have the option to alter what they dislike without having to complain in this forum. 

Edited February 21 by Rodrigogc

[alian62]

3 hours ago, Rodrigogc said:

I haven't played this FM20 version and was unaware of this Korean thing. Can you elaborate more on that ? I'm asking it because I've always found that FM should be moddable in almost every aspect, and I think this is something that can actually happen in FM25 because Unity engine is the one Cities Skyline, which is a game full of mods, was built from. 

FM community would benefit a lot from it I suppose. 

I think it's still available from the Discord Community

Edited February 21 by alian62

[DDA]

FM07 for me. Huge gaming possibilities and minimalism of interface. One small negative is the unbalanced database

[Rookie FM]

I have played FM 05 to FM 24.

 

So best Versions in Order would be

FM 24

FM 17

FM 13

FM 12

FM 10

FM 08(I still got cd  and one of my fav.)

FM 07

[Muja]

9 ore fa, Rookie FM ha scritto:

FM 08(I still got cd  and one of my fav.)

I didn't mention 08 because I haven't played it recently, but I've heard it's considered the best one of the 2D era.

[Weed07]

For me I've played every version and FM19 has been my favourite as it was the version where I had my longest save spanning over 50 years and 3 clubs while also being the only version where I've had a son and i got two in that save 30 years apart.

[grade]

My vote doesn't go to the best game, as this is subjective, because the game has improved since then, but the most fun I had with the Football Manager game was FM07.

Others failed in comparison. Classic and later Touch versions were also fun, but the lack of an editor prevented them from making the top three fun FMs: FM05, FM06, and FM07.

Edited February 23 by grade

[d d]

Quote

 

FM07 was a great game, the speed of the processing.

[Ein]

Which is the latest version without bloated or poorly implemented features like media interactions and so on?

[Cometdude]

No idea why, other than personal preference based on the main "career" save I had, but for me FM15.

[Dagenham_Dave]

On 21/02/2024 at 10:57, Muja said:

Honorable mention to FM20, for a very particular reason: at some point, the Korean community found a way to modify the ME physics and released "patches" online.
These modifications visibly altered the functioning of the ME itself, but I don't want to get into whether they made it better or worse.
However, it was undeniable that these patches breathed new life into the game, and this anecdote has always made me think that FM could benefit ENORMOUSLY from making the ME moddable.

THE single biggest placebo effect in all of FM's history. 

Making the Match engine moddable is an horrendous idea. People already change so much of the game by putting in wildly unrealistic input then crying wildly when they get the obvious unrealistic output. This would be 100 times worse if the ME was ever opened up to be modded. 

Thankfully I reckon SI will see the sense in this and never allow this to happen. 

[Muja]

6 ore fa, Dagenham_Dave ha scritto:

THE single biggest placebo effect in all of FM's history. 

Making the Match engine moddable is an horrendous idea. People already change so much of the game by putting in wildly unrealistic input then crying wildly when they get the obvious unrealistic output. This would be 100 times worse if the ME was ever opened up to be modded. 

Thankfully I reckon SI will see the sense in this and never allow this to happen. 

Sorry, but this is a nonsensical argument. 

It's quite the opposite, someone who is unhappy with the vanilla ME would surely have plenty of mods to try until they're satisfied, instead of coming here in the forums to complain. 

There are ZERO contraindications to let players modify a game however they like. 

Think of Europa Universalis: the vanilla game is very good on its own, but all the mods out there can bring it to another level and allow everyone to make the game as fun as they want it to be. 

It's a win-win situation. 

Edited February 24 by Muja

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 hours ago, Muja said:

It's quite the opposite, someone who is unhappy with the vanilla ME would surely have plenty of mods to try until they're satisfied, instead of coming here in the forums to complain. 

 

It's incredibly naive to think that's how it would work. 

Anyway, the FM match engine is a massively complex piece of code. Put that into the hands of the general public and all you're going to get is utter chaos. SI know this, and that's why it's never happening. Enough of the game is moddable to make the experience better as it is. 

2 hours ago, Muja said:

Think of Europa Universalis: the vanilla game is very good on its own, but all the mods out there can bring it to another level and allow everyone to make the game as fun as they want it to be. 

There's no downside to modding games like that, because there's nothing in real life to compare it to, so you have a completely blank canvas to do what you want. FM is a completely different ball game, pardon the pun. 

[Muja]

4 minuti fa, Dagenham_Dave ha scritto:

It's incredibly naive to think that's how it would work.

It’s exactly what happened with FM20. People weren’t happy with the vanilla ME and they modified it and suddenly, placebo or not, they were enjoying the game more.

People moan because they don’t like some parts of the game? Allow them to change it as they see fit. It’s a no-brainer.

8 minuti fa, Dagenham_Dave ha scritto:

Anyway, the FM match engine is a massively complex piece of code.

It’s not about making the whole code public -  no company in their right mind would ever do that.

You put some *modifiers* in the code and make those, and only those, public. Numbers that can be decreased or increased, having an effect in the calculation.

13 minuti fa, Dagenham_Dave ha scritto:

. Put that into the hands of the general public and all you're going to get is utter chaos.

Nonsense, what you’ll get is utter freedom and tons and tons of mods.

“You think gegenpress is OP? Use this mod that makes gegenpress unsusteainable for 90 minutes”

”Tired of the lack of central play? Use this mod which makes players take more risks in central areas”

”Catenaccio lover? Use this mod that makes defenders have an advantage over opponents” 

And so on, and so on… Everyone’s happy. 

20 minuti fa, Dagenham_Dave ha scritto:

There's no downside to modding games like that, because there's nothing in real life to compare it to, so you have a completely blank canvas to do what you want. FM is a completely different ball game, pardon the pun. 

Bollocks, everyone has his own idea of what real football is like.

Some people even care more about FUN than realism. Just look at the discussion in the general thread, some people are happier when they see less goals, others think it’s funnier when every match ends 5-4 or other results like that.

With mods, everyone gets what they want. Everyone is having fun.

How could anyone be opposed to that?

[Dagenham_Dave]

19 minutes ago, Muja said:

“You think gegenpress is OP? Use this mod that makes gegenpress unsusteainable for 90 minutes”

Genius. It's almost as if SI haven't been trying to work out a way to do this for about four editions now. But yeah, Joe Public will fix that in seconds. 

This place, man. 

[Muja]

6 ore fa, Dagenham_Dave ha scritto:

Genius. It's almost as if SI haven't been trying to work out a way to do this for about four editions now. But yeah, Joe Public will fix that in seconds. 

This place, man. 

Are you not aware of the existence of Daveincid's "megarealism pack"?
It's a meticulous modification of the initial database that, among other things, changes the finances and market preferences of all teams in dozens and dozens of nations, adds individual awards in dozens of leagues to rebalance the reputation system, and increases the number of injuries by modifying the physical integrity of all players in the game.

It's been around since FM20, I believe, and many people, myself included, believe it makes the game SIGNIFICANTLY better in the long run, and some users won't even start a new game until they have this megapack.

Don't underestimate the dedication of the game's most hardcore fans. The hundreds of hours some spend testing to find the perfect tactic, or to create a more appealing skin...

There would be people who would work day and night to make the game better—or simply different in certain areas, to meet the needs of some players.
And the best part is, SI wouldn't even have to pay them!

I repeat, it's a win-win situation.

[rp1966]

I think the biggest reason that SI wouldn't allow modding of the match engine is nothing to do with code complexity - it's all about business. The ME is the area of difference that people most care about when comparing versions.  Free up that to modding and SI have a greatly reduced ability to tweak the ME and market it as something 'new and improved' for a new edition of the game. Any ME changes would have to be beyond the scope of the modders to have any impact.

Then there's also the fact that it would lift the curtain on how the ME works. Remember that after the Korean mods to the JSON file, SI chose to lock it down and remove the ability to edit it.

 

 

Edited February 25 by rp1966

[Ein]

This might be the only forum where you'll find gamers arguing against game moddability. I mean, some developers oppose it and in some cases (Creative Assembly) have scaled it back to push the DLC model. In some cases (Paradox), moddability and the DLC model exist side-by-side. Whilst SI's reaction to the Korean mod was insanely weird (why all the censorship if the change really did nothing?), they also release a modding tool (the pre-game editor) for free with every iteration, which makes mods like Daveincid's 'megarealism pack' possible. From our (FM gamers) point of view, it would obviously be great if more stuff could be subject to modification, especially when considering that FM has a lot of unfinished or half-baked features which do not get the attention of the developers but might very well be improved upon by dedicated fans.

Edited February 25 by Ein

[Dagenham_Dave]

16 hours ago, Muja said:

Are you not aware of the existence of Daveincid's "megarealism pack"?
It's a meticulous modification of the initial database that, among other things, changes the finances and market preferences of all teams in dozens and dozens of nations, adds individual awards in dozens of leagues to rebalance the reputation system, and increases the number of injuries by modifying the physical integrity of all players in the game.

It's been around since FM20, I believe, and many people, myself included, believe it makes the game SIGNIFICANTLY better in the long run, and some users won't even start a new game until they have this megapack.

Don't underestimate the dedication of the game's most hardcore fans. The hundreds of hours some spend testing to find the perfect tactic, or to create a more appealing skin...

There would be people who would work day and night to make the game better—or simply different in certain areas, to meet the needs of some players.
And the best part is, SI wouldn't even have to pay them!

I repeat, it's a win-win situation.

I've nothing against modding the game. I use lots of mods myself. Mainly superficial stuff like skins, etc. However, opening up the match engine to modders would be absolute insanity. And not in a good way. 

[Muja]

9 ore fa, Dagenham_Dave ha scritto:

However, opening up the match engine to modders would be absolute insanity. And not in a good way. 

I can't see a single reason why that'd be true.
All mods are optional by nature. Currently, someone could make a database when the stats of all players in the world equal to 1. 
That'd be insanity? Maybe, but if someone has fun with such a mod, who cares?! How is that affecting you or me?

21 ore fa, rp1966 ha scritto:

I think the biggest reason that SI wouldn't allow modding of the match engine is nothing to do with code complexity - it's all about business. The ME is the area of difference that people most care about when comparing versions.  Free up that to modding and SI have a greatly reduced ability to tweak the ME and market it as something 'new and improved' for a new edition of the game. Any ME changes would have to be beyond the scope of the modders to have any impact.

Then there's also the fact that it would lift the curtain on how the ME works. Remember that after the Korean mods to the JSON file, SI chose to lock it down and remove the ability to edit it.

I'm afraid reason 1 is the main problem here.
But as I explained earlier, there is no need to "lift the curtain on how the ME works". 
The way Paradox does it, most of the game's code remains inaccessible; all modders can change are the modifiers.
These are nothing more than simple variables included in the main code but accessible to the community.

Translating it to FM, there could be modifiers like "maximum defensive line depth," "rate of physical condition deterioration during matches," or a value quantifying the effect of a "playmaker's ball magnet," among other examples, without revealing anything about how the ME works.

Outside of the ME itself, there could be modifiers like "AI aggressiveness in the transfer market" or a value indicating how much priority the AI gives to CA/PA or player reputation when deciding to purchase one.

The main part of the code should remain secret, as it is only fair.