How Liverpool's "Pass&Move" 4-4-2 Conquered Europe - Bob Paisley's "Non-Tactical Way" of Football

[crusadertsar]

As much as I love writing about Dutch Total Football, or Brazilian Jogo Bonito or Mourinho-inspired Pragmatic style of football (my recent Defence-First thread), I feel like there has been a lot of tactical discussion about those styles and tactics. For every Pep Guardiola's Man City's inspired thread there is another generic 4231 or 433 thread. I like a good 433 as much as anyone does, but I also get bored easily which is another reason why you see me switch tactics and teams so often. I also find it's surprising that with a sport that ultimately has its origins on the island of Albion, and a computer game which probably has a huge chunk of its fanbase in England, the classic English school of football has not been more prominently featured here on this forum. Not recently at least. I find there is a distinct lack of good old 4-4-2 Simple English football discussion and I plan to rectify this 

By "Good old simple English 4-4-2" I really mean the fluid "pass-and-move" football style implemented by Bob Paisley at Liverpool during the club's undeniably most successful era from 1975 to 1983. I believe that six 1st Division titles and three Champions League trophies (European Cups at the time) don't lie. 

 

Quote

"It's not about the long ball or the short ball, it's about the right ball."

- Bob Paisley 

The Historical Context

Bob Paisley was a very modest manager and did not really see himself as some sort of "Special One" or a tactical genius. In fact, he did not view himself as a tactician at all. Instead, Paisley was heavily influenced in his coaching approach by his predecessor and mentor Bill Shankly. He based his management around his knack to evaluate the ability of each player. Meaning that if 11 players fit the basic 4-4-2 system and were intelligent enough to read the game themselves, then tactical coaching should be kept to a minimum. Let creative strikers be creative and finishers be clinical. Or in other words Paisley would let Kenny Dalglish do his thing while Ian Rush did what he did best, that is score goals. Of course King Kenny scored his fair share of goals too but that's a story for another time. 

In short, Bob Paisley was a great innate football manager because he would not get hung up in the specifics and technicalities of tactics but instead had an amazing ability to bring all of his players skills and abilities and allow them to create something much greater together. And 4-4-2 formation proved to be a great drawing board for this. 

Paisley's genius was in taking a much more hands-on approach to recruitment, and bringing in Ian Rush, Bruce Grobbelaar, Mark Lawrenson and, most notably, "King" Kenny Dalglish. All veritable legends of English football. It was the signing (for a British record fee of £440,000 at the time) of the creative Deep-lying Forward Dalglish that was the final piece in the Liverpool success puzzle. It was Kenny's subtle creativity and ability to read the game which allowed Paisley's 4-4-2 to shift into a 4-4-1-1 with ease. A tactical development that was still rather fresh in late 1970s as you can remember it was not that long from the innovative Dutch teams of 1970s with their own innovative 4-3-3 centered by a False 9 Johan Cruyff.  

One could also mention what Liverpool accomplished during Paisley's nine-year tenure for years. It's not something that many other managers have been able to beat or even equal since. In a period when the European Cup (current Champions League) was immeasurably harder to win than it is now (with only actual league winners gaining qualification as it should be in a cup called "Champions" League!), Paisley became the first manager in history to win the trophy three times, with only Carlo Ancelotti and Zinedine Zidane matching that feat since. 

While my inspiration to turn to 4-4-2 has been largely due to the influence of Bob Paisley, as I wrote earlier he was probably one of the last of the school of English "non-tactician" coaches, and therefore it is really hard to find detailed descriptions of how his Liverpool 4-4-2 played. He was a true players' manager and not an armchair tactician in a sense that like Shankly before him he gave his players freedom to play the way they were best at. Recruitment and nurturing talent were Paisley's strengths. In a way, he would have been the Football Manager player that collects all the best wonderkids, puts them in their best roles in a simple formation and wreaks havoc on the league. And after I my previous less than stellar attempt with Real Sociedad (we were very good defensively but not so good at winning titles but more on that later), I am itching to emulate this type of less stressful, free-form way of managing. The management that is done in the Boot Room and not on a blackboard. Looks much more pleasant doesn't it?! 

 

Thus keeping that in mind my idea for recreating a vintage 4-4-2 Liverpool tactic centers around making a very general tactic with only few instructions to really give the power to the players. Not to get bogged down in micromanaging every little instruction. Much in the same vein as those old-school English managers like Shankly, Paisley and Kenny Dalglish who did not like to burden their players with layer upon layer of tactical complexity. The old "Boot Room" managers scoffed at such over-thinking as a Continental European football thing, an obsession with academic coaching jargon and tactical technicalities. To them football was above all else a game, the players' game played by footballers, not like chess played by tacticians. The reason why Paisley's and Dalglish's Liverpool teams succeeded in that era was because the two managers were masters in assembling the right players and giving them free reign to express their skills. So basically finding players with very good decisions, work rate, off the ball movement, vision and teamwork. And lots of aggression in midfield! I would try to set up a very fluid sort of tactic with generic roles mostly passing around short, roaming around and working hard to close down hard in a midblock. And I agree most of the width should come from wingbacks, as the central midfielders and wide midfielders should try to keep a compact system in the middle. 

So even as Shankly and Paisley scoffed at the "Continental way" of playing football, there still emerged a well-defined tactic that we now associate with that great Liverpool team of the 70s-80s. Unfortunately neither Shankly nor his successor Paisley wrote much on how they set up their formations. Fortunately we do know quite a bit on how Paisley's mentee Kenny Dalglish went about setting up his teams when he became manager. Dalglish' tactical inspiration was largely built on ideas which he as Paisley's star striker picked up on while playing for him. So it was only natural that he would use many of the same concepts when he himself became manager first for Liverpool and then Blackburn in 1990s. We all remember that Blackburn side for a good reason, but we must also keep in mind that before coming over to Ewood Park, Kenny already won thre 1st division titles with Liverpool.

Kenny Dalglish's immensely successful 4-4-2 at Blackburn with its two star strikers Shearer and Sutton (where Shearer worked hard to bring out his magical clinical touch and Sutton dropped deeper to give creative support) took more than a few cues from Paisley's Liverpool. Dalglish himself played as a Deep-lying Forward, a key cog in Paisley's system. Here one can draw parallels to how Johan Cruyff learned Dutch-style 433 under his manager Rinus Michels before implementing it himself as a manager. There is actually a long progression of managers who learned their favourite formation while playing for their manager/mentor. Pep Guardiola, who himself learned in turn from Cruyff, is another one that kept the Dutch-style 433 flame burning. 

Same unfortunately did not happen to English-style 442 as it didn't capture the imagination of the young generation of managers in the same way. Dalglish and Roy Hodgson probably being the last great British 4-4-2 managers. But let's not get sentimental as I hope that this thread can hopefully reignite that flame on this forum at least. 

Conceptual Phase

 

So without further ado, the basic tactical concept is this. Tactically at both Liverpool and Blackburn Kenny Dalglish's system essentially followed the same model established by Bob Paisley: a basic 4-4-2 with a genuine winger (John Barnes) on one flank and a more tucked-in midfielder on the other (Ray Houghton), and a deep-lying forward (Peter Beardsley in the role Dalglish himself once occupied) working off a classic striker type with good clinical instincts, heading and generally well-rounded physical profile. Fast, strong and able to jump. A striker who would also work across the line. Basically like Ian Rush, Dalglish's striker partner at Liverpool, at his prime. Or the Irish international Aldridge whom Dalglish used in the same role at Liverpool. Then both full-backs were encouraged to push on, and at least one of the centre‑backs had license to stride out with the ball into midfield, a more creative ball-carrying defender. That's basically most of the requirements. Still working out the other tactical instructions to recreate the basic fast moving short passing style. It will probably resemble the modern Vertical Tiki Taka style in a way but not as strictly structured around a heavy possession style. More of a fluid-counter where you control the ball in your own half, win it back as soon as you can and launch deadly attacks via the two strikers upfront. 

In order to recreate Paisley's signature "Pass and Move" style there are a few instructions that I will probably include, although nothing is set in stone yet. In this sense, I will try to keep to the general idea of developing a fluid 4-4-2 where centre mids work hard, the wide midfielders both tuck in and support the two strikers and fullbacks push up to provide width. And the two strikers who compliment each other innately - one more attacking (Ian Rush type) and one more creative (Dalglish type). Oh yes, and one centreback that brings the ball forward. That's pretty much it. The roles I intend to use will be generic ones for the most part so the big importance will actually fall on the player attributes and traits. 

To give a perfect example, here is a player whom I intend to fill my "Dalglish role". The kid is a natural DLF with attributes and even some traits to embrace that particular role and make it his own for many seasons to come. He was actually one of the reasons I chose the club I did when its job positing became available. I went down in league level but don't really care because I am a player's manager and really really want to nurture this particular talent. To me this game is mostly about discovering amazing newgens anyway. Can you guess where I will be managing now? It's not quite Liverpool but close  (They even share the same rival)

The objective is really simple to try to achieve this style with the least possible tactical overhead. Least complication and "tactical munchkin" strategies. Let's try not to overthink for once and just try to give the player roles the freedom that they deserve. Of course you will need very good players for this. And that is my other goal for this project, build a team of amazing newgen wonderkids that can nevertheless work together to bring forth some pretty appealing attacking football. I will not be limited by strict tactical recreations here because I am not recreating an over-analyzed tactic like those of Pep's Man City or Arteta's Arsenal. I am rather tired of reading endless recreations of those systems. No, in this project I will try to keep in mind that both football and FM are games, meant to be fun. 

FM24 Context

Some of you might be confused as to why I had a sudden change in gears from my previous Real Sociedad Defence-First Football Project. Well, partially it was not of my own choosing (I was sacked ). So that also puts a stop to my Brazilian 4-2-2-2 Box experiment too. Sadly don't have the players for that now. Yet I actually hope to keep a lot of the same Defence-First concepts alive in the new tactic. Especially because English football from the Shankly and Paisley era was largely built on the idea of fusing physicality, hard discipline and defensive workrate (all quite stereotypical of English football) with a healthy infusion of technical possession-focused passing (blame those pesky Continental Europeans, aka Red Star Belgrade for that haha - if curious check out my old thread going into detail on this particular development: 

I rather not overburden this thread with more historical background but for those who are curious you could read my long post from page 14 of that even loooonger thread. If you want to see how Shankly's disliked Continental style of football actually influenced his tactic, and changed English-style 4-4-2 forevermore. 

 

 

Edited January 22 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

By the way, I also wanted to open this thread up as a sort of open discussion/sharing space for people who want to post about, ask for advice or just simply brag about their own experiences with a simple 4-4-2 in FM24, or in any other previous versions of the game. So please, dont be shy, make yourself heard and let's all celebrate this amazing, historic formation together PASS AND MOVE!

 

Edited January 22 by crusadertsar

[CharlieTZR]

great to see a tread with this subject!

I have two ways I like to set up my teams, Ferguson/English inspired 442 and Sacchi/Lippi inspired 442s; I only play 433 with teams where I am obliged to due to the the squad composition or I need a more solid defensive state.

This being said, I had great success with this setup for 2 seasons, gained automatic promotion and next season won first league.

In terms of PI, the BWM although is in support have the hold position instruction and is my "secret" playmaker as he stays in the center and filters the balls and also acts as a defensive cover.  Holding position also helps with such a dynamic double pivot.

Left WM (At) is one of the main treats in attack, it cuts inside, roam from position and sometimes  runs into channels; You can play a WP here but I don't like the playmaking coding because I also intend to counter attack without having players who attract ball

In terms of opposition instructions, my central defenders never tight marking and trigger press while central midfielders tight mark and fullbacks and midfielders always trigger press.

At this moment, I am in my third season after two thrilling seasons (automatic promotion then won first league +cup) I lost my CD (left) being sold by board and I kind of struggle with my succes; This 442 with stronger teams is slightly tweaked with my DLF dropping at AM (s) with Get forward and Roam behind the sole striker;

the other PI in the team aren't very important, BBM shots more ofthen and FB cuts inside to assist the BWM in the midfield and also shots more often due to being a good shooter (this could be interesting tough because he kind of helps the BWM with his great work rate cutting inside in BBMs place.

Also the defense doesn't work great and had a team meeting in which my captain warned me to change the tactics because do not work (first time I had that). The defense is leaking and I have no success in  re-gain the form from first two seasons

Ideas are welcomed

Edited January 22 by CharlieTZR

[jc577]

6 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

So that also puts a stop to my Brazilian 4-2-2-2 Box experiment too.

That’s a real shame! I’ve been lurking the forums for the past few days in anticipation of it 😂 really got me thinking about quick attacking football with lots of flare.. may give it a go myself haha. But this new project has me almost equally excited  love a 442 and always will, so excited to see your take in this new style. 

[Bahnzo]

Great idea. I switched to a 442 in my Dresden save and have done pretty well in the last two seasons now. I think it offers good positioning for both a possession oriented style or a more direct counter one. I've used it for both. Currently I'm doing a more possession oriented one, as I've got the players to play this way.  One thing I always struggle with, is what sort of pairing to use as my midfield two? Any discussion there is welcome. I know the B2B and BWM is the standard, but I don't have those style players and instead am using a DLP/MEZ, with the MEZ sometimes changed to a CM.

Edited January 22 by Bahnzo

[Bahnzo]

3 hours ago, CharlieTZR said:

Left WM (At) is one of the main treats in attack, it cuts inside, roam from position and sometimes  runs into channels; You can play a WP here but I don't like the playmaking coding because I also intend to counter attack without having players who attract ball

I like the idea of the WM. Maybe works like the IW, but with a little more freedom?

[warlock]

11 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Dalglish and Roy Hodgson probably being the last great British 4-4-2 managers.

Ahem! *cough* Sir Alex *cough*

It's been a while since I tried it, but my default FM tactic for years was the Man Utd 442, pass-and-move style - Beckham on the right, Giggs on the left, Keane and Scholes in central midfield, Cole and Yorke up front. At least in FM, it has become difficult in recent versions (and probably in real life) because of the lack of players who are natural performers in the wide midfield areas. Almost all of the wide players today are much more comfortable in the AMR/AML slots. And I'm one of those managers who believes that anyone who can play AML can play ML, AMR can play MR, and so on, but there's always the nagging doubt, assman notes about players being out of their natural positions, etc.

I have a feeling it all went wrong when Mourinho introduced the third central midfielder but it might be time to revisit the system. Will be following 

[crusadertsar]

6 minutes ago, warlock said:

Ahem! *cough* Sir Alex *cough*

It's been a while since I tried it, but my default FM tactic for years was the Man Utd 442, pass-and-move style - Beckham on the right, Giggs on the left, Keane and Scholes in central midfield, Cole and Yorke up front. At least in FM, it has become difficult in recent versions (and probably in real life) because of the lack of players who are natural performers in the wide midfield areas. Almost all of the wide players today are much more comfortable in the AMR/AML slots. And I'm one of those managers who believes that anyone who can play AML can play ML, AMR can play MR, and so on, but there's always the nagging doubt, assman notes about players being out of their natural positions, etc.

I have a feeling it all went wrong when Mourinho introduced the third central midfielder but it might be time to revisit the system. Will be following 

Oh my God  I knew I was missing someone in that list. But promise it was not intentional, eventhough I'm not a Man United fan haha. I love Sir Alex and what he did for the 4-4-2.

[warlock]

4 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I knew I was missing someone in that list

You're forgiven! Looking forward to more discussion. A first thought - in terms of the extra midfielder, we now have an option with the IWB role moving into central/defensive midfield with a CM moving forward/wide. Lots to think about!

[Novem9]

Never been a fan of 442, except for SAF. Although this is a big question, what is his formation - 442, 424, or asymmetry in the middle (dm/cm) and the flanks. However, FM24 solves this dilemma; ME is unusually fluid.

I feel uncomfortable without at least one defensive midfielder. In addition, I strictly adhere to the Cruyff doctrine, which includes not only the notorious triangles for the variability of the pass. But it also has a clear concept that a player in the back positions, such as DLP, has a better view of the pass and movement of the ball. I'm sure you know that Cruyff got his inspiration from... rugby.

What definitely inspires me when I remember the SAF is his flexibility in relation to the players available. Like Ancelotti, he looks at the "deck" before creating a tactic. He will not "break" a player like Guardiola or Mourinho to fit into his concepts. Here it may seem that I have a split personality, because their approach inspires me too

However, I never spend much time on tactical analysis after matches. And I rarely use PI. Therefore, your new topic is definitely close to my heart  Complex intricacies like in Sociedad are complications for show, to be honest (I'm just a hater of any asymmetry or additional factors ) 

15 часов назад, crusadertsar сказал:

I will not be limited by strict tactical recreations here because I am not recreating an over-analyzed tactic like those of Pep's Man City or Arteta's Arsenal

It seems to me that Pep “betrayed” Cruyff’s ideas, or rather, took the path of complicating them. It is no coincidence that he failed to reach the Champions League final with Bayern, where he created difficult concepts. And he managed to win in Manchester only many years later, having acquired the phenomenal Haaland, who plays brightly and genuinely-simply. And having Rodri, the ideal player for total football

And although Arteta is not formally the Dutchman’s heir, he is now in many ways closer to the original idea.

After all, Cruyff's ideas are simple on paper, relatively easy to implement in theory and boil down to the fact that players must have good attributes: technique, first touch, passing, off the ball, decisions, aggression, anticipation, teamwork , work rate, vision , acceleration, stamina, agility, balance. This is the dream come true of football as a sport, a yard pastime. Not something created in a tactical laboratory. Imo.

Edited January 23 by Novem9

[Novem9]

10 часов назад, CharlieTZR сказал:

In terms of PI, the BWM although is in support have the hold position instruction and is my "secret" playmaker as he stays in the center and filters the balls and also acts as a defensive cover.  Holding position also helps with such a dynamic double pivot

What always amazed me about bmw-s was his ability to score from long range. This has been happening for many years in a row in different FM versions. It just happens, contrary to expectations

[Novem9]

15 часов назад, crusadertsar сказал:

By the way, I also wanted to open this thread up as a sort of open discussion/sharing space for people who want to post about, ask for advice or just simply brag about their own experiences with a simple 4-4-2 in FM24, or in any other previous versions of the game. So please, dont be shy, make yourself heard and let's all celebrate this amazing, historic formation together PASS AND MOVE!

 

My plans are to make a top club from Bradford after patch 24.3

Conceptually, I just want to use the SAF philosophy, using the best sides of each player to create harmony on the field. For such a save, 442 is more than appropriate. I think I'll start with this basis:

Although I’m not sure that the IFB will be able to properly cover the center of the field without the classic “breakwater” 

[CharlieTZR]

2 hours ago, Novem9 said:

What always amazed me about bmw-s was his ability to score from long range. This has been happening for many years in a row in different FM versions. It just happens, contrary to expectations

TBH my player have the trait to refrain from taking shots because his skill is 5 but yes, I had one who used to snipe from outside the box ocasionally.

 

9 hours ago, Bahnzo said:

I like the idea of the WM. Maybe works like the IW, but with a little more freedom?

I will try that yes, but I wanted a WM to emphasize he's a midfielder not a winger; i tried to avoid coded movements and give him the most freedome, mould his play from traits as  the one player you see in pic is a very talented youngster from academy

 

Edited January 23 by CharlieTZR

[CharlieTZR]

2 hours ago, Novem9 said:

I feel uncomfortable without at least one defensive midfielder. In addition, I strictly adhere to the Cruyff doctrine, which includes not only the notorious triangles for the variability of the pass. But it also has a clear concept that a player in the back positions, such as DLP, has a better view of the pass and movement of the ball. I'm sure you know that Cruyff got his inspiration from... rugby.

Could you please give me some details on this? I've read Cruyff's memoirs and I don't remember anything about rugby. I am primarly a rugby fan, ex player etc., I do not watch football anymore, I just play this game because is good.

[Johnny Ace]

I do love a 4-4-2 and always found out in FM, that simpler is better so be following with interest  

How did no one mention all the whiskey? 

[Novem9]

54 минуты назад, CharlieTZR сказал:

Could you please give me some details on this? I've read Cruyff's memoirs and I don't remember anything about rugby. I am primarly a rugby fan, ex player etc., I do not watch football anymore, I just play this game because is good.

I remember this moment because a) I realized that I had always played in a similar style IRL, and b) it explained my passion for using a playmaker in the DM zone in FM. In general, this book greatly influenced my perception of football. Well, you can see it in my avatar  

This was difficult to give more details because I read the book “My Turn” in Russian translation. But I found it! Here is the English version, we are talking about chapter 3 of "My Turn". I took a slightly larger quote to understand the context:

 

When he arrived, all the forwards were told to practise what became known during the tournament as Total Football. Total Football requires talented individuals acting in a disciplined group. Someone who whines or doesn’t pay attention is a hindrance to the rest, and you need a boss like Michels to nip that in the bud. I don’t know who came up with the term ‘Total Football’, but it gets the meaning across. Total Football is, aside from the quality of the players, mostly a question of distance and positioning. That’s the basis of all the tactical thinking. When you’ve got the distances and the formation right, everything falls into place. It also needs to be very disciplined. You can’t have someone striking out on their own. Then it doesn’t work. Someone will start to pressurize an opposition player, and then the whole team has to switch gear.

   An example. When putting pressure on a right-footed defender, I would close him down on his right, forcing him to pass with his weaker left foot. Meanwhile Johan Neeskens would be coming up from midfield on his left, forcing the opponent to make the pass quickly. That made his problem even worse. To do that, Neeskens had to let his man go. That meant that his opponent was unmarked, but that guy couldn’t track Neeskens because, from our defence, Wim Suurbier had pushed up to fill Neeskens’ position. Quickly and effectively, we’d created a three-on-two situation. So to cut a long story short: I put pressure on the opponent’s stronger side, Neeskens did the same on his weak side and Suurbier made sure that Neeskens’ marker was forced to hold position. All of that happened within a radius of five to ten metres.

   That, in fact, has always been the essence of Total Football, you always play based on what you can see and never on what you can’t see. In other words, you always need to have an overview, you always need to be able to see the ball.

   Take rugby. The players have to the pass the ball backward to be able to run forward. As a result, they have a better overview of what’s happening in front of them. The same theory can be applied to football, but a lot of people don’t see it that way. They think they have to play the ball forward, when in fact the man coming up the field from behind is the one they should be playing to. He’s in a deeper position, but he has an overview.

   At any rate, Total Football has everything to do with distances on the field and between the lines. If you play like that even the goalkeeper counts as one line. Since the keeper can’t pick up a back pass, he has to be able to play football with it. Someone who can make sure that the defenders receive the ball at the right moment. He often has to be positioned at the edge of the penalty area, to be an option for the teammates in front of him. In our style of play for the World Cup in Germany there was no room for a keeper who never came off his line.

---

Cruyff cites other sports several times as small but profound examples. I vaguely remember this moment, but he said that he played other sports as a child, which enriched his understanding of football. Genius, in a word.

[CharlieTZR]

Thanks @Novem9, I totally forgot about the respective remark.

[crusadertsar]

3 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

I do love a 4-4-2 and always found out in FM, that simpler is better so be following with interest  

How did no one mention all the whiskey? 

Whisky makes everything inherently better  Paisley knew the secret to football... simplicity and... lots and lots of whiskey apparently.

[NineCloudNine]

The approach of letting players get on with it appeals to me in an age of Guardiola/Arteta micro-management which also seems to have led many FM players to overload TIs and PIs.

The ultra form if this freedom would be a tactic with no TIs, no PIs, generic roles only and everyone on support if possible.

No BWM, BPD, Mezzala, playmakers, WB or Trequartista etc. Just FB, CD, W, WM, DM, CM, AM and AF.

If you want a CD to play long passes, you have to train the PPM. Want a CM to get forward, train the PPM. Want a CM to kick stuff, pick one with high aggression and train him to dive into tackles.

All sliders on neutral. Use mentality and touchline shouts to manage games.

The game sadly makes this very difficult - there’s no generic forward role for example, and there are very few defenders with CD as their best role or midfielders with CM. If there was an option to turn off all pre-defined roles, I’d use it in a heartbeat!

Edited January 23 by NineCloudNine

[Novem9]

30 минут назад, NineCloudNine сказал:

The approach of letting players get on with it appeals to me in an age of Guardiola/Arteta micro-management which also seems to have led many FM players to overload TIs and PIs.

The ultra form if this freedom would be a tactic with no TIs, no PIs, generic roles only and everyone on support if possible.

No BWM, BPD, Mezzala, playmakers, WB or Trequartista etc. Just FB, CD, W, WM, DM, CM, AM and AF.

If you want a CD to play long passes, you have to train the PPM. Want a CM to get forward, train the PPM. Want a CM to kick stuff, pick one with high aggression and train him to dive into tackles.

All sliders on neutral. Use mentality and touchline shouts to manage games.

The game sadly makes this very difficult - there’s no generic forward role for example, and there are very few defenders with CD as their best role or midfielders with CM. If there was an option to turn off all pre-defined roles, I’d use it in a heartbeat!

In my first FM versions in the mid-2000s, I didn’t even know that the game had tactical sliders. But I had enough choice of roles to play quite successfully and in the style that I want. After a long break from FM, I had to learn so much information that now I can work as not the worst analyst in a football club, and this sounds pretty crazy. I don't need to know the mechanics of a chainsaw or a shotgun to play Doom (a stupid example that I like)

Moreover, some of the details are not documented in the game at all. You can learn these subtleties only by accidentally encountering rare comments from developers who came in for a couple of minutes of communication. 

[NineCloudNine]

46 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

After a long break from FM, I had to learn so much information that now I can work as not the worst analyst in a football club, and this sounds pretty crazy. I don't need to know the mechanics of a chainsaw or a shotgun to play Doom (a stupid example that I like)

Moreover, some of the details are not documented in the game at all. You can learn these subtleties only by accidentally encountering rare comments from developers who came in for a couple of minutes of communication. 

I agree. Even as a veteran FM player, football obsessive and devourer of guides I still could not reliably tell you the difference between a FBa/s/d, a WBa/s/d and a CWBa/s. Or why the game thinks Jude Bellingham is a BWM. 

Edited January 23 by NineCloudNine

[Vinay17]

4-4-2 is such a rich formation in every sense, it adapts to any style of play and variations that one wants to apply. For example at this moment I am managing a second division club in Spain in my journeyman save and I’m using a 4-4-2

I would love to see any Sean Dyche or Marcelino recreation. Different variations of the 4-4-2 

Edited January 23 by Vinay17

[bosque]

On 22/01/2024 at 16:03, CharlieTZR said:

In terms of PI, the BWM although is in support have the hold position instruction and is my "secret" playmaker as he stays in the center and filters the balls and also acts as a defensive cover.  Holding position also helps with such a dynamic double pivot.

Don't you find the BWM being overly aggresive when the team attacks even with hold position? I tried this a few times but almost always end up with the double pivot on the edge of the opposition area and acres of space behind them. And the BWM doesn't have any go forward related player trait.

[parsdaft1982]

I will be keeping an eye on this thread now. I currently use a 442 myself, which has helped me gain 3 promotions from the Scottish lower leagues. I am currently in Scottish league one.

I have to admit though, I am a massive tactical noob, I have always been one for downloading or copying other peoples work. In this save I have built my own using the "wing play" preset.  If anyone does have any tactical advice to help improve it, honestly I am all ears.

I have been using positive mentality, but decided to go balanced for my new season in a higher league.

[NineCloudNine]

11 hours ago, parsdaft1982 said:

 

I have to admit though, I am a massive tactical noob, I have always been one for downloading or copying other peoples work. In this save I have built my own using the "wing play" preset.  If anyone does have any tactical advice to help improve it, honestly I am all ears.

I reckon 99/100 when someone posts their tactic and asks for tips my first thought is “why are you using so many TIs (team instructions)?”.

In your case it seems odd to have a TF and then ask for low crosses and work ball into box. I’d take those off and let your players decide.

Distribute to centre backs when you have CDs is also a little counter-intuitive. If you want them on the ball, make one a BPD. If they aren’t good on the ball, don’t ask them to start build-ups.

I might also be tempted to make one side WB-A / W-S to get variation in attacking play between the two flanks. 

Edited January 24 by NineCloudNine

[parsdaft1982]

2 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

I reckon 99/100 when someone posts their tactic and asks for tips my first thought is “why are you using so many TIs (team instructions)?”.

In your case it seems odd to have a TF and then ask for low crosses and work ball into box. I’d take those off and let your players decide.

Distribute to centre backs when you have CDs is also a little counter-intuitive. If you want them on the ball, make one a BPD. If they aren’t good on the ball, don’t ask them to start build-ups.

I might also be tempted to make one side WB-A / W-S to get variation in attacking play between the two flanks. 

Thank you very much for your advice there mate.

I added work ball into box to try stop so many long shots. But hearing it from someone else, definitely makes sense. The play out was depending on how deep the opposition sat, I sometimes changed it balls over the top. However, never thought of a BPD so will consider that too. My left had side will be the best for WB-A/W-S so will try that. 

Thanks again for your insight, much appreciated.

[Novem9]

14 минут назад, parsdaft1982 сказал:

I added work ball into box to try stop so many long shots

You should definitely read this. The screenshots are missing, and the guide is from FM18, but this is one of @Cleonbest works, in my opinion.

After this guide my longs shots from 12-15 per game started to be around 2-5 per game. Spoiler - Players shoot from long distance when they don't see any chance for passing forward.

[NineCloudNine]

40 minutes ago, parsdaft1982 said:

My left had side will be the best for WB-A/W-S so will try that. 

Thanks again for your insight, much appreciated.

You are welcome .

Since the deeper of your two midfielders is on the left, making your left winger inverted might mean more variety in forward movement and allow more space for a WB to overlap. The diagonal movement of an inverted winger - especially from deep - can pull the opposition out of position. It doesn’t matter in this instance whether your winger is left or right-footed, it’s the cutting in movement that matters. In fact a left-footed inverted winger still crosses, but from a different angle.

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, Novem9 said:

You should definitely read this. The screenshots are missing, and the guide is from FM18, but this is one of @Cleonbest works, in my opinion.

After this guide my longs shots from 12-15 per game started to be around 2-5 per game. Spoiler - Players shoot from long distance when they don't see any chance for passing forward.

I did an updated version last year. It was part of a much bigger thread. It can be found here;

 

[CharlieTZR]

On 23/01/2024 at 23:21, bosque said:

Don't you find the BWM being overly aggresive when the team attacks even with hold position? I tried this a few times but almost always end up with the double pivot on the edge of the opposition area and acres of space behind them. And the BWM doesn't have any go forward related player trait.

No really but perhaps is linked with mentality as I rarely play other than positive; what I want from my BWM (S) is to mop up balls cleared away by opposition and pass to more creative players

[crusadertsar]

Tactical Update:

Importance of Attributes and Traits in recreating Liverpool's vintage "Pass-and-Move" 4-4-2

So for purpose of testing this tactic I went back to one of my older Total Football saves, actually one from FM23 which I transferred to FM24. Why? 
I realized that to recreate Liverpool's "Pass-and-Move" style I would need some pretty technical players. Total Footballers if you will. Also ones with one specific trait. And my 1st Team at Braga just happened to have plenty of technical footballers with this trait. Afterall it was my Total Football on a budget experiment. 

The trait in question is none other than "Plays One-Twos"

For those interested, the handy little video below actually explains what one-two pass, move strategy entails in real-life football. If you play football outside of the FM game then you already know that one-twos are nifty strategy that almost everyone learns once you reach a certain level in the sport. 

But what does it mean to "play one-twos" in FM24. In the game, much like in real football it is when a player passes short to a teammate before making a forward run into space with the intention of quickly receiving the ball and perhaps making another one-two attempt. All the way until opposition goal hopefully. It is a useful strategy to move the ball quickly and efficiently through even the most stubborn opposition defences. Especially when those opponents are not leaving a lot of space for you to run into. Thus, playing one-twos is a perfect way to break down parked buses, provided you have the right players and the right formation set-up. Which brings me back to that old Braga save. I remembered having trained one-two trait to pretty much the whole attacking side of my "Arsenalistas" squad. It was an eclectic collection of footballers (and 16 different nationalities!) that I amassed over 3 years of managing the Portuguese club. They were not a world-class but still a very capable, technical side. Back then I was trying to play Total Football 4-3-3 on a budget and managed 3 consecutive Top 3 finishes but got bored because couldn't break the Big Three's hold over the league. Well maybe a change of formation is in order?

I tried to practice what I preach by including some of the concepts that I talked about in my "Defence-First" thread, particularly the importance of a deeper midfield line because of its better defensive solidity as well as proximity to the centrebacks which is needed for progressing the ball smoothly up the field.

Keeping my midfielders in a deeper starting position also allows us to play around with riskier support duties on both roles (mind you my BWM is still individually told to "hold position"). Otherwise I also tried to keep the tactic as simple as possible from the team instructions perspective. So I only included the ones which I think will be necessary to achieving the "pass-and-move" style. The instructions can only do so much, and more often than not your players ignore them and just do their own thing. So that's why the other important side of tactic creation is including players with the right attributes and individual traits (PPMs) that are suitable to the football style you are looking to achieve. This is also the case in Liverpool's "Pass-and-Move" attacking possession football. Or whatever you want to call it. Vertical Tiki Taka before the word "Tiki Taka" even existed. Or English Total Football? Let's not beat around the bush Liverpool played a variant of Total Football back in late 1970s and early 80s. Shankly and Paisley were definitely inspired by the great Continental European sides of the time such as Ajax and Red Star Belgrade, sides which favoured ball possession above all else. 

But anyway, my point here is that you will need some pretty technical players to achieve Paisley's "Pass-and-Move" Football. Especially the players who will be consistently getting into opposition half during attack. In the tactic above, it's the two strikers, segundo volante and all four wide players. I forgot to mention that I have a few individual instructions on some roles to fine-tune their behavior a little. Specifically on BWM - "hold position", Wingback and Fullback - "stay wider", WM - "cut inside with the ball". Additionally my right fullback would also have "get further forward" instruction had he not already possess the trait to "get further forward".

It goes without saying that all 6 of the players discussed above have successfully learned the "Plays One-Twos" trait (even the wingback and fullback). It helps that they are strong in the technical and mental attributes because this trait is quite demanding in its attribute requirements. To pull off the "one-two" passing movement (or even to be able to learn it in the fist place) a player will need a few specific attributes.

As you can see above, my 1st choice for attacking WM is more than suited to play pass and move football. Nadim Bajrami is an example of a well-rounded "Total Footballer" whom I definitely want on my team. The highlighted attributes are the ones I deem necessary for "one-twos". Obviously Anticipation, Decisions and Off The Ball are included as they better allow your player to assess the space around him and make those key, perfectly-timed forward runs after having passed the ball to a teammate. In relation to the latter, good Teamwork, Passing, First Touch and Technique are required. Also while in motion and running forward to hopefully get on the end of the next pass in the series, it would greatly help for the player to have good physical attributes such as Acceleration, Agility and Pace. 

In a little side note on training (choice of that screenshot above was very intentional) I pretty much have all of my attack-oriented players individually training to improve their Attacking Movement. 

Wide Playmaker - key role in the tactic?

Of course, having the "one-twos" trait on majority of your players is far from everything that you will need to achieve good pass and move strategy. You will still need a good balanced selection of roles to recreate the desired behaviour on the pitch. Specifically, the right mix of passers and runners is necessary. The selection of roles is rather meaningful here because I went specifically with either generic ones (like Fullback, WM) or specialist roles that don't have "dribble more" hardcoded into them (Wide Playmaker). It goes without saying that I want my players to concentrate on keeping the ball through passing it around rather then running with it. Especially because they are not world-class players and have little chance of beating Real Madrid players (or even Porto players) by dribbling against them. 

In my tactic above, I believe that I have selected a good combination of roles to achieve the desired "pass and move"-style 4-4-2. For example, keeping the main playmaker on the flank (at least in the beginning of the build-up) allows him to escape the opposition markers. Central playmakers whether in AM or CM or even DM positions tend to get marked out easily in FM24. For this reason I always loved the Wide Playmaker role for being the "dark horse" ace up your tactical sleeve. With the right player he can become the veritable fulcrum and the central cog around which your tactic will revolve. My main objective in the off-season is to bring in the young kid below. I suspect that he will become indispensable to the team once we retrain him into the left flank WP role.

Also, as added bonus Slamet is Indonesian! It's very rare to see a great newgen from that region and I am more than happy to expand my multi-national squad. 

Once the WP is in the more central pitch location (to which he will invariably move during the build-up) a variety of passing options opens up to him. The natural progression is via segundo volante runner on the right. The SV will tend to make late timed runs into space and is also positioned in close proximity with another runner on the right flank - our WM. Basically the aim is to create a natural overload (due to the number of support duties and a playmaker) on the left side of the pitch while the ball can be progressed vertically by the two runners on the right flank (I even considered making my fullback into an attack duty one but hesitated since I'm not sure whether I want him to be crossing the ball at every opportunity or to leave my right flank too exposed). My Romanian DLF wonderkid Copot-Barb should further help the right side to progress up into attack by dropping deep (I am also training him to "come deep to get the ball" to further enhance his role's natural behavior) and participate in the one-twos progression with either SV or WM or even the overlapping fullback. 

Of course this is still mostly theoretical (although I recall having very good experience with training and using "one-twos" in previous versions of FM). But at least now that I have the right players. All that remains is testing the tactic. And I also leave it up to other thread participants to share what their experience with the "One-Twos" has been like in other similar systems in FM.

Thanks for reading and Happy Managing!

 

Edited January 27 by crusadertsar

[carloshcorbalan]

I uploaded a link to the tactic to test it exactly as you thought...

[crusadertsar]

Not a bad start 

Edited January 27 by crusadertsar

[TheMartello]

Did you use any more player instructions than the ones you mentioned already?

 

Looking forward to try this out!

[crusadertsar]

8 minutes ago, TheMartello said:

Did you use any more player instructions than the ones you mentioned already?

 

Looking forward to try this out!

Nope. Just those I mentioned. 

[Novem9]

I don't like to use advanced traits , but your project in Braga exciting me... or scary?  Looks like I missed this topic. 

As player who enjoys journeyman saves, I found newgens with 10+ traits in some new clubs  

Using flank playmaker is it's a pain in a transfer window that is rewarded with a productive season and exciting combinations. I like to retrain a CMs/AMs to increase rotation flexibility. For me it's AP in winger slot, but probably WM is almost the same role with mostly context difference. 

12 часов назад, crusadertsar сказал:

But what does it mean to "play one-twos" in FM24.

It's basically a triangle for two, right?

I'm not sure how necessary this feature is in 433 for example, where the entire formation is natural triangles. Plus, the high lines of the 433 probably don't go well with this feature? But for 442 this definitely sounds like an elegant solution to the weak points of the 442 formation  brilliant idea!

It looks like Volante will be the most popular role in the coming years  My 5221dm gave me great results in the Mexican League and Volante is a huge part of the system. Your 442dm definitely uses it to its fullest too

[crusadertsar]

8 hours ago, Novem9 said:

I don't like to use advanced traits , but your project in Braga exciting me... or scary?  Looks like I missed this topic. 

As player who enjoys journeyman saves, I found newgens with 10+ traits in some new clubs  

Using flank playmaker is it's a pain in a transfer window that is rewarded with a productive season and exciting combinations. I like to retrain a CMs/AMs to increase rotation flexibility. For me it's AP in winger slot, but probably WM is almost the same role with mostly context difference. 

It's basically a triangle for two, right?

I'm not sure how necessary this feature is in 433 for example, where the entire formation is natural triangles. Plus, the high lines of the 433 probably don't go well with this feature? But for 442 this definitely sounds like an elegant solution to the weak points of the 442 formation  brilliant idea!

It looks like Volante will be the most popular role in the coming years  My 5221dm gave me great results in the Mexican League and Volante is a huge part of the system. Your 442dm definitely uses it to its fullest too

Yeah going back to Braga was like putting on an old glove. I loved that save because it felt very satisfying to take a small club and do something great with it. Total Football on a budget. So it was easy to go back for that reason. 

Yeah naturally 442 won't create the triangles the same way 433 does. But definitely I noticed that having runners and passers that are more willing to engage in one-two passes creates a similar effect of progressing the ball up from defence. 442 has not usually been associated with possession football but what I'm seeing in my half dozen friendly matches so far speaks differently  Also managed to easily beat Boa Vista with 3-0 score yesterday. Some really nice team goals. So hopefully a sign that it's not just "friendly match" effect.

Edited January 28 by crusadertsar

[Novem9]

@crusadertsar How appropriate is 424dm tactic (with Wingers, not WMs) in FM? The separation of DM and CM slots, as well as WM and Winger, has brought some confusion to the 442 and its derivatives

[Birtan61]

McGinn is on the left wing of 4-4-2 when defending, but she is in this position when she is on the ball. How can I set this in game?

[NineCloudNine]

20 hours ago, Novem9 said:

@crusadertsar How appropriate is 424dm tactic (with Wingers, not WMs) in FM? The separation of DM and CM slots, as well as WM and Winger, has brought some confusion to the 442 and its derivatives

Personally - and this might be just me - I think 4-2-4 with wingers in the AML/R slots is a different tactic/approach/thing than the sort of English 4-4-2 envisaged in this thread. The wide players in a 4-2-4 are much more like forwards than the wide players in a 4-4-2.

On the other hand, I don’t think it matters if the two central midfielders are put in CM or DM for an FM 4-4-2 recreation. The clear strata distinction in FM isn’t really there IRL.

[crusadertsar]

23 hours ago, Novem9 said:

@crusadertsar How appropriate is 424dm tactic (with Wingers, not WMs) in FM? The separation of DM and CM slots, as well as WM and Winger, has brought some confusion to the 442 and its derivatives

I agree with @NineCloudNine the greater defensive availability of deeper positioned wide players is my preferred variant over the other variant which is more of the Brazilian style 4-4-2 (4-2-4 really). And in my opinion the midfielders in 442 are naturally DMs - positioned deeper in defensive phase and moving up during attack. Keep in mind that the formation you set up initially reflects the defensive positioning of players. But basically as @NineCloudNine also said there is no DM and CM strata distinction in real life 442.

Edited January 30 by crusadertsar

[irish kopite]

Great thread @crusadertsar

Every edition of CM/ FM since CM 01/02 I've tried to re-create Liverpool's style of play under Paisley. I'll try and keep this post as short as possible. Everything is merely my opinion based on many years of watching old matches, reading what info there is out there and listening to players from that era. I don't remember Paisley or Fagan's teams but I'm a child of the first Dalglish era!

The classic Liverpool style was by and large based on building from the back, enticing teams forward before a quick ball would speed up the attack. My opinion is that the Liverpool Way tactically speaking is misunderstood as a result of the free flowing football Liverpool played in the 90s under Roy Evans and to a lesser extent the brilliance of Dalglish's teams in his first spell. Naturally casual observers will remember the later teams of the Bootroom era which ended with Evans departure in 1998.

The classic Liverpool style was adapted from competing in European competition and really became nailed down in Shankly’s last season after Liverpool were knocked out of the 1973/74 European Cup by Red Star Belgrade.

It wasn't free flowing, it had it's moments alright. But it was designed to win trophies in as efficient a manner as possible and was carried out by some of the most resolutely disciplined players that English football has seen. These players were talented certainly but not all of them were world class. I think fluid counter- attack with a balanced mentality is the best way to describe the style. I also totally agree that there was little tactical micro- managing. The genius of the Bootroom era, and the much vaunted "secret", was in my opinion- player recruitment. Get that right, and Paisley nearly got all his signings spot on, and the tactics dictate themselves. Paisley was the master team builder, the best there ever was in my opinion.

The tactics did change with Dalglish's arrival in the summer of 1977 and the break-up of the Keegan/ Toshack dynamic duo over the course of the previous season as Heighway was pushed up front. Once Toshack began to fade away in 1977, Liverpool's attack became much more fluid and had less of a focal point. It was more 4-4-1-1 in my view with Heighway occupying a roaming role up front (CF-A) and Keegan then Dalglish tucked in behind in a type of Shadow Striker role. Heighway would clear the forward line so to speak and along with Dalglish, Ray Kennedy from left midfield and McDermott, in a very aggressive box to box role, would charge into it. Edit: I forgot about David Johnson RIP, who played in the teams at the end of the 70s and was Dalglish's more established partner before Rush. A different type of player to Heighway, 'the Doc' was more of a hard-working and mobile target man who worked the channels really well and contributed more than his fair share of goals. I reckon PF-A suits him and I've used Nunez in this role in FM24 in an attempt to turn him into a similar type of mobile target man.

That was the template until 1981/82 ( I think this is the era you're aiming for) especially with the emergence of Rush, Dalglish getting older and Souness really starting to emerge as a world- class all round central midfield general who completely bossed First Division midfields. He had no equal from then until his departure in summer 1984. This was the broad tactical outline right up until Rush's departure in 1987 and Dalglish went for some big changes to the style, particularly with the signings of Barnes and Beardsley. His style was more attacking and faster, there was more individual flair and less of the relentless machine like qualities of earlier teams. 

I think the formation in the early to mid 80s was more 4-4-2 with Dalglish in a DLF-A role and Rush in an ADV FWD role, emerging as a new but different focal point to what Toshack was. He was perfect as Dalglish's pace and turn lessened the older he got but the more subtle his through balls and brilliant hold up play became. He released the ball at the perfect time.  I've found these two roles actually work well together in FM with a fluid team structure and loads of support roles in midfield and defence. AK was a WB-S and Neal a FB-S (his role changed too as he got older and he moved into midfield a lot with Souness to give an extra man in possession if Liverpool built attacks slowly and the break wasn't on). Hansen a BPD and Lawrenson a bog standard CD. Whelan a WM‐S with sit narrower, Johnston same role but with stay wider and get more forward. Souness DLP-S, Lee BWM-S.

Some other key team instructions which I think are non-negotiables to replicate Liverpool's style.

1. I'm going to use some modern jargon! The Bootroom I think were big on compression, vertical and horizontal in order to cut down on the space the players had to cover to win the ball back in the middle third. This comes back to the efficiency of the Liverpool system where small squads played over 50 games at least a season to win a European Cup and were hard work was non-negotiable, "fancy dans" weren't signed. That to me means a mid press with a much higher defensive line, closing down much more and aggression in the midfield area with the defence closing down that dangerous space in front of them- Step Up More. The Bootroom referred to this as "countering", possibly counter- press in the modern jargon.(Paisley's teams were one of Sacchi's reference points).

Opponents were also enticed to go down the flanks and Liverpool used the sideline like a wall (Trap Outside), similar in fashion to Simeone's Atleti. I've heard Souness refer to Liverpool's midfield 4 which he played in as "pinched" when the opposition had the ball.

2. DRIBBLE LESS. Paisley detested fancy dan wingers dribbling into "no man's land" like "blue arsed flies" and disrupting the team's rhythm. Alan Kennedy told me that for years after leaving Liverpool he dreamt about being at Melwood and Ronnie Moran screaming "Get it, give it, GO!".

Also, a common tactical feature of the Liverpool midfield in this era was the use of a shuttler type of right mid paired with a more 'footballing" type of midfielder on the left flank in the No. 5 shirt e.g. Ray Kennedy and then Whelan. Case was something like a winger on Liverpool's right flank in the mid to late 70s but he would rather go through an opponent than go around them. A teak tough little tank who could play. Craig Johnston sweated blood, he was an unbelievably hard working player, if technically limited by his own admission.

3. Hold Shape. I know a bit contradictory with counter-attacking but Liverpool were disciplined and didn't run off forward like "blue arsed flies" when the ball was won, see above. The attacking was done by Dalglish to Rush. Goal. Efficiency, that word again, was the name of the game and if a counter wasn't on, it wasn't on. Liverpool built and squeezed the life out of an opponent with possession football until they cracked.

4. Situational TIs I use are- 

Pass into Space, as there's two attack duties up front. This combination of TI and player roles I really like.

I usually take this TI off, drop the tempo and work ball into box if I'm leading. Liverpool did something like this in this period and strangled the life out of a game. They didn't get the machine moniker for nothing in this era. I suppose efficiency again. Liverpool didn't play like this for aesthetics. If Liverpool had the ball there was more chance of them scoring, the opposition not scoring and conceding. Crucially, the pass and move style cut down on the amount of chasing to win back the ball and potential injuries.

EDIT 5. Play Out of Defence. Jesus how did I forget this. This was also what defined the changes from 1973/74 and was certainly apparent in European away matches. As was the pass back to the GK who in this era was permitted to pick it up. Unfortunately this has been outlawed for 32 years, strangely in the same season the Premier League and Champions League began, as if co-ordinated to signify a break with the old First Division/ European Cup tradition. One of football's coincidences. It was a major feature in these matches though as Liverpool would silence the home crowd or drive them mad as they did in the Nou Camp in 1976 with a hilarious exchange taking place between Paisley and left-back Joey Jones over seats being thrown into the Liverpool dugout. (An enjoyable feature of Liverpool legends nights is some of the stories the ex-players tell about Paisley. Although he was a very intelligent man and a deceptively deep thinker about the game, at times cold and ruthless when it came to telling a player he was dropped or his time was up, he was also very eccentric with some hilarious and bizarre exchanges between him and the players).

Roll it out and Distribute to CDs and FBs tends to compliment POOD.

Hopefully my post is not too long. I tried to keep it as short as possible. I hope this might help contribute something in FM terms to an era of the club's history I revere and cherish. I'm something of a football nostalgic, even more so as I get older and the game and in fairness the club moves even further away from its roots, despite Liverpool going through a relatively comparable phase under the soon to depart Jurgen Klopp. 

Thanks for starting this topic.

Edited January 31 by irish kopite
Additional tactical info added

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, irish kopite said:

Great thread @crusadertsar

Every edition of CM/ FM since CM 01/02 I've tried to re-create Liverpool's style of play under Paisley. I'll try and keep this post as short as possible. Everything is merely my opinion based on many years of watching old matches, reading what info there is out there and listening to players from that era. I don't remember Paisley or Fagan's teams but I'm a child of the first Dalglish era!

The classic Liverpool style was by and large based on building from the back, enticing teams forward before a quick ball would speed up the attack. My opinion is that the Liverpool Way tactically speaking is misunderstood as a result of the free flowing football Liverpool played in the 90s under Roy Evans and to a lesser extent the brilliance of Dalglish's teams in his first spell. Naturally casual observers will remember the later teams of the Bootroom era which ended with Evans departure in 1998.

The classic Liverpool style was adapted from competing in European competition and really became nailed down in Shankly’s last season after Liverpool were knocked out of the 1973/74 European Cup by Red Star Belgrade.

It wasn't free flowing, it had it's moments alright. But it was designed to win trophies in as efficient a manner as possible and was carried out by some of the most resolutely disciplined players that English football has seen. These players were talented certainly but not all of them were world class. I think fluid counter- attack with a balanced mentality is the best way to describe the style. I also totally agree that there was little tactical micro- managing. The genius of the Bootroom era, and the much vaunted "secret", was in player recruitment. Get that right, and Paisley nearly got all his signings spot on, and the tactics dictate themselves. Paisley was the master team builder, the best there ever was in my opinion.

The tactics did change with Dalglish's arrival in the summer of 1977 and the break-up of the Keegan/ Toshack dynamic duo over the course of the previous season as Heighway was pushed up front. Once Toshack began to fade away in 1977, Liverpool's attack became much more fluid and had less of a focal point. It was more 4-4-1-1 in my view with Heighway occupying a roaming role up front (CF-A) and Keegan then Dalglish tucked in behind in a type of Shadow Striker role. Heighway would clear the forward line so to speak and along with Dalglish, Ray Kennedy from left midfield and McDermott, in a very aggressive box to box role, would charge into it.

That was the template until 1981/82 ( I think this is the era you're aiming for) especially with the emergence of Rush, Dalglish getting older and Souness really starting to emerge as a world- class all round central midfield general who completely bossed First Division midfields. He had no equal from then until his departure in summer 1984. This was the broad tactical outline right up until Rush's departure in 1987 and Dalglish went for some big changes to the style, particularly with the signings of Barnes and Beardsley. His style was more attacking and faster, there was more individual flair and less of the relentless machine like qualities of earlier teams. 

I think the formation in the early to mid 80s was more 4-4-2 with Dalglish in a DLF-A role and Rush in an ADV FWD role, emerging as a new but different focal point to what Toshack was. He was perfect as Dalglish's pace and turn lessened the older he got but the more subtle his through balls and brilliant hold up play became. He released the ball at the perfect time.  I've found these two roles actually work well together in FM with a fluid team structure and loads of support roles in midfield and defence. AK was a WB-S and Neal a FB-S (his role changed too as he got older and he moved into midfield a lot with Souness to give an extra man in possession if Liverpool built attacks slowly and the break wasn't on). Hansen a BPD and Lawrenson a bog standard CD. Whelan a WM‐S with sit narrower, Johnston same role but with stay wider and get more forward. Souness DLP-S, Lee BWM-S.

Some other key team instructions which I think are non-negotiables to replicate Liverpool's style.

1. I'm going to use some modern jargon! The Bootroom I think were big on compression, vertical and horizontal in order to cut down on the space the players had to cover to win the ball back in the middle third. This comes back to the efficiency of the Liverpool system where small squads played over 50 games at least a season to win a European Cup and were hard work was non-negotiable, "fancy dans" weren't signed. That to me means a mid press with a high defensive line and lots of closing down and aggression in the midfield area with the defence closing down that dangerous space in front of them. The Bootroom referred to this as "countering", possibly counter- press in the modern jargon.(Paisley's teams were one of Sacchi's reference points).

Opponents were also enticed to go down the flanks and Liverpool used the sideline like a wall, similar in fashion to Simeone's Atleti. I've heard Souness refer to Liverpool's midfield 4 which he played in as "pinched" when the opposition had the ball.

2. Dribble less. Paisley detested fancy dan wingers dribbling into "no man's land" like "blue arsed flies" and disrupting the team's rhythm. Alan Kennedy told me that for years after leaving Liverpool he dreamt about being at Melwood and Ronnie Moran screaming "Get it, give it, GO!".

Also, a common tactical feature of the Liverpool midfield in this era was the use of a shuttler type of right mid paired with a more 'footballing" type of midfielder on the left flank in the No. 5 shirt e.g. Ray Kennedy and then Whelan. Case was something like a winger on Liverpool's right flank in the mid to late 70s but he would rather go through an opponent than go around them. A teak tough little tank who could play. Craig Johnston sweated blood, he was an unbelievably hard working player, if technically limited by his own admission.

3. Hold Shape. I know a bit contradictory with counter-attacking but Liverpool were disciplined and didn't run off forward like "blue arsed flies" when the ball was won, see above. The attacking was done by Dalglish to Rush. Goal. Efficiency, that word again, was the name of the game and if a counter wasn't on, it wasn't on. Liverpool built and squeezed the life out of an opponent with possession football until they cracked.

4. Situational TIs I use are- 

Pass into Space, as there's two attack duties up front. This combination of TI and player roles I really like.

I usually take this TI off, drop the tempo and work ball into box if I'm leading. Liverpool did something like this in this period and strangled the life out of a game. They didn't get the machine moniker for nothing in this era. I suppose efficiency again. Liverpool didn't play like this for anesthetics. If Liverpool had the ball there was more chance of them scoring, the opposition not scoring and conceding. Crucially, the pass and move style cut down on the amount of chasing to win back the ball and potential injuries.

Hopefully my post is not too long. I tried to keep it as short as possible. I hope this might help contribute something in FM terms to an era of the club's history I revere and cherish. I'm something of a football nostalgic, even more so as I get older and the game and in fairness the club moves even further away from its roots, despite Liverpool going through a relatively comparable phase under the soon to depart Jurgen Klopp. 

Thanks for starting this topic.

Very nice analysis mate! Much appreciated 👍 A lot of tactical food for thought and quite a few elements that I also agree on in my own attempt to emulate this style. 

[irish kopite]

16 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Very nice analysis mate! Much appreciated 👍 A lot of tactical food for thought and quite a few elements that I also agree on in my own attempt to emulate this style. 

We've a lot of similar interpretations. I'm not saying I'm definitely right and there may be some FM'ers in the Forums who saw Paisley's teams play? They don't seem to have been around here for some years though @Torskus77 @crouchaldinho?

I think you nailed the tactical style. It's closer in a modern way to de Zerbi and Xabi Alonso, interestingly two men who seem to be among the favourites to succeed Klopp.

The part I've always found hard to get right is the sudden switch in tempo from patiently passing the ball around the back to going straight for the jugular when the space opened up. I looked at some of Cleon's material this morning on using the cautious mentality with a good amount of attack duties to achieve this. I generally don't go lower than balanced mentality and think this is closer to Paisley and Fagan's Liverpool.

Edited January 31 by irish kopite

[BarstoolProphet]

On 27/01/2024 at 16:40, crusadertsar said:

 

Also, as added bonus Slamet is Indonesian! It's very rare to see a great newgen from that region and I am more than happy to expand my multi-national squad.

@crusadertsar apologies for being a bit off topic, but which skin are you using? I’d love to get that Custom DNA panel as choosing a core DNA is a primary component of how I play the game. 

[jc577]

1 hour ago, irish kopite said:

The part I've always found hard to get right is the sudden switch in tempo from patiently passing the ball around the back to going straight for the jugular when the space opened up. I looked at some of Cleon's material this morning on using the cautious mentality with a good amount of attack duties to achieve this.

Very interesting! I've been trying to crack this for years  Could you link me to the material you were reading? 

[Robson 07]

Nice thread if I may so.  Looking back I can definitely see some commonality now between Paisley's Liverpool setup and that of Clough (Forest) and maybe even Fergie and Wenger, Utd and Arsenal respectively. 

It was that reference to the right side of the (442 / 4411) formation being configured slightly differently to the left.  E.g. John Robertson left (winger); Martin O'Neill right (tucked in); Giggs left (winger), Beckham right (tucked in); Overmars left (advanced), Parlour right (tucked in). Plus the opening post to this thread Barnes left (winger), Houghton right (tucked in).  All of those successful sides defying the myth that all 442's were equal and that English sides always had an archetypal winger both sides and a big no.9 target man up top.  Of course some teams did but as is being shown, many of the better ones were always far more nuanced and tactically aware than are given credit for.

Also I would like to give @irish kopite a huge shout out.  His longer reply 3 or 4 posts above mine is absolute quality. 

 

[irish kopite]

11 minutes ago, jc577 said:

Very interesting! I've been trying to crack this for years  Could you link me to the material you were reading? 

It's an old one but it gave me the ideas to mess around with on my day off. Now I went with a 4-4-1-1 and to emphasize the play out from the back quick break style I had two supporting full backs behind two attacking duties on the flanks. AMC- S with gets further forward and roaming behind a AF-A. It looks good and might do as my European system. Something different to mix things up.

Anyway, Dalglish would drop into midfield in these tough European away assignments so this was my initial inspiration for this system.

Thanks to @Cleon for this thread which was a great learning tool.

[irish kopite]

4 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

Nice thread if I may so.  Looking back I can definitely see some commonality now between Paisley's Liverpool setup and that of Clough (Forest) and maybe even Fergie and Wenger, Utd and Arsenal respectively. 

It was that reference to the right side of the (442 / 4411) formation being configured slightly differently to the left.  E.g. John Robertson left (winger); Martin O'Neill right (tucked in); Giggs left (winger), Beckham right (tucked in); Overmars left (advanced), Parlour right (tucked in). Plus the opening post to this thread Barnes left (winger), Houghton right (tucked in).  All of those successful sides defying the myth that all 442's were equal and that English sides always had an archetypal winger both sides and a big no.9 target man up top.  Of course some teams did but as is being shown, many of the better ones were always far more nuanced and tactically aware than are given credit for.

Also I would like to give @irish kopite a huge shout out.  His longer reply 3 or 4 posts above mine is absolute quality. 

 

4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 can be far from the stereotype its portrayed as. Yes, definitely I agree with you. A big feature of 4-4-2s of this era was asymmetry, different angles of attack, different runs etc. As you say, this was also a big element of Ferguson's and Wenger's 4-4-2s.

Although I think Paisley went one step further in not having that genius left winger like Robertson, Barnes, Giggs, Pires etc. His No.5s on the left of midfield tended to be more creative midfield players than quick wingers. I believe he didn't trust wingers on the sides of midfield and almost as soon as he got the Liverpool job he started experimenting with Heighway's role.

I also understand he was hugely influential in persuading Shankly to play Keegan up front. Keegan was initially signed as a right winger but Paisley saw something in him during training, and the rest is history. Incidentally, this is how the Liverpool No.7 shirt ended up in the forward positions. Liverpool fans of my age don't really talk about No.10s, for us that's our No.7.

As you mentioned Wenger, there's a video of him from the mid to late 00s on YouTube somewhere in which he states his believe that 4-4-2 is the most rational formation due to its pitch coverage.

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, irish kopite said:

We've a lot of similar interpretations. I'm not saying I'm definitely right and there may be some FM'ers in the Forums who saw Paisley's teams play? They don't seem to have been around here for some years though @Torskus77 @crouchaldinho?

I think you nailed the tactical style. It's closer in a modern way to de Zerbi and Xabi Alonso, interestingly two men who seem to be among the favourites to succeed Klopp.

The part I've always found hard to get right is the sudden switch in tempo from patiently passing the ball around the back to going straight for the jugular when the space opened up. I looked at some of Cleon's material this morning on using the cautious mentality with a good amount of attack duties to achieve this. I generally don't go lower than balanced mentality and think this is closer to Paisley and Fagan's Liverpool.

If you dig deep there is actually quite a few good threads about these old system's such as ones used by Paisley, Fagan ect. And i very much agree with @Robson 07 Clough's Forest would fall into that same category of more fluid 4-4-2. Another thread that inspired me was one from 2009! It talks about sliders 😱 but the general ideas are still good. I really don't miss pre-FM14 sliders though haha. 

Not sure if @redmark is still around but I really liked his breakdown of Paisley's team.

Going back to your comment @irish kopite however, I also find the tempo changes to be difficult to set up in FM. I mean an obvious easy one is how counterattack happens but that's mostly automatic, the players are programmed to go into attacking overdrive when a turnover happens in a specific part of the pitch. Adding the "counter" instruction I believe decreases this threshold but it still dependent on a specific algorithm such opposition loosing possession in your own half and certain number of players being there. But you can basically go from playing patient possession game to total attack in a blink. Unfortunately outside of counters, tempo changes like that are tricky. One idea I had is maybe 🤔 putting players with "dictate the play" at certain strategic spots in formation. Like one in DM strata and one in AM? Not sure whether that makes any sense or whether my four hour coffee deprivation is starting to catch up to me 

Edited January 31 by crusadertsar