How Liverpool's "Pass&Move" 4-4-2 Conquered Europe - Bob Paisley's "Non-Tactical Way" of Football

[NineCloudNine]

23 minutes ago, irish kopite said:

I also understand he was hugely influential in persuading Shankly to play Keegan up front. Keegan was initially signed as a right winger but Paisley saw something in him during training, and the rest is history. Incidentally, this is how the Liverpool No.7 shirt ended up in the forward positions. Liverpool fans of my age don't really talk about No.10s, for us that's our No.7.

Absolutely gold standard historical trivia there

[crusadertsar]

Also I just wanted to thank every one of you for participating and contributing to this thread  I found theorizing about a "simpler" formation and reading through all the replies has actually been a rather grounding zen-like experience. When I decided to write about this subject I was in a weird headspace where I felt very lost on what I wanted out of the game, tactically ect. And I had a bit of falling out with the style I was using before this. Not getting a lot of satisfaction from it especially because the feedback from the boardroom hasn't been the best (I missed out on Champions League spot by one point and thus was given an ultimatum to win 9 points in my next 5 games in my Real Sociedad save ). Now I'm at a bit of a crossroads having created two splitting saves: one where I accept the ultimatum and fight for my job next season, and one where I refuse and perhaps accept the Leeds job, or even go back to my Braga save. Except I really love my Basque save. I think I actually find it hard to manage without the Basque players limitation (self-imposed in Sociedad's case). I guess there is just something comforting about having a limit on who you can scout and sign. Things just become too chaotic and stressful for me without such a transfer limit. I would never be happy with the players I already have and just keep chasing the next best replacement. At least that's how it's been in previous FM saves before I fell in love with Basque region.

I guess my experience with tactics has been similar. I was always chasing the next best tactic. They have been getting more and more complicated. Needlessly so. Until I realized that I wasn't having fun. So this is where I got the idea to go to something "simpler", a good old 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 maybe. And have to say so far it's been a rather liberating experience! Although I'm still working hard on trying to simplify things by limiting the number of instructions and exotic player roles. Old habits die hard I guess haha. 

Edited January 31 by crusadertsar

[NineCloudNine]

I always set transfer rules, otherwise it just gets overwhelming.

In my current Roma save it’s: 

1. Youth team

2. South Americans with Italian passports

3. Italians over 24 bought from other Serie A clubs

Oh and DDR as my Assistant .

I’m only allowing ‘exotic’ roles when they are required to force positioning changes, like the Half Back. Otherwise it’s vanilla roles only.

Edited January 31 by NineCloudNine

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, NineCloudNine said:

I always set transfer rules, otherwise it just gets overwhelming.

In my current Roma save it’s: 

1. Youth team

2. South Americans with Italian passports

3. Italians over 24 bought from other Serie A clubs

Oh and DDR as my Assistant .

I’m only allowing ‘exotic’ roles when they are required to force positioning changes, like the Half Back. Otherwise it’s vanilla roles only.

Those are some good rules of thumb 

I like the South Americans with Italian passport one! But do you find enough like that? Especially among the newgens?

My transfer rule with Real Sociedad has been similar to what Athletic Bilbao implements meaning I can only use Basque players from my own academy or other Basque players from other clubs. But I do give exception to any newgen that comes through my own "canters"/academy. Sometimes I get some unique ones like this exceptional Belgian keeper that graduated in 2nd season. 

 

 

 

Edited January 31 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

4 hours ago, BarstoolProphet said:

@crusadertsar apologies for being a bit off topic, but which skin are you using? I’d love to get that Custom DNA panel as choosing a core DNA is a primary component of how I play the game. 

Sorry about late response. Here is the skin:

https://www.fmscout.com/a-sas-fm24-skin.html

Gotta say it's a really nice skin. Along with Rensie's skin i think it's one of the best for FM24.

[irish kopite]

3 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Also I just wanted to thank every one of you for participating and contributing to this thread  I found theorizing about a "simpler" formation and reading through all the replies has actually been a rather grounding zen-like experience. When I decided to write about this subject I was in a weird headspace where I felt very lost on what I wanted out of the game, tactically ect. And I had a bit of falling out with the style I was using before this. Not getting a lot of satisfaction from it especially because the feedback from the boardroom hasn't been the best (I missed out on Champions League spot by one point and thus was given an ultimatum to win 9 points in my next 5 games in my Real Sociedad save ). Now I'm at a bit of a crossroads having created two splitting saves: one where I accept the ultimatum and fight for my job next season, and one where I refuse and perhaps accept the Leeds job, or even go back to my Braga save. Except I really love my Basque save. I think I actually find it hard to manage without the Basque players limitation (self-imposed in Sociedad's case). I guess there is just something comforting about having a limit on who you can scout and sign. Things just become too chaotic and stressful for me without such a transfer limit. I would never be happy with the players I already have and just keep chasing the next best replacement. At least that's how it's been in previous FM saves before I fell in love with Basque region.

I guess my experience with tactics has been similar. I was always chasing the next best tactic. They have been getting more and more complicated. Needlessly so. Until I realized that I wasn't having fun. So this is where I got the idea to go to something "simpler", a good old 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 maybe. And have to say so far it's been a rather liberating experience! Although I'm still working hard on trying to simplify things by limiting the number of instructions and exotic player roles. Old habits die hard I guess haha. 

I've run "Bootroom" saves over many editions as Liverpool manager. I try to impose a clear way of doings things on the basis of what would the Bootroom do if they were around today?

1. Tactical style.

2. Training sessions focusing on small- sided games which emphasize an aspect of the team's approach. Like pressing the opponent, playing from the back, keeping the ball etc. Ok there's a bit of imagination here but read the descriptions in game! I also look for simple sessions which focus on the basic skills of first touch, passing, finishing etc. I avoid tactical sessions in keeping with Bootroom tradition.

3. Scouting- I'd focus on European players in the 20- 23 age bracket mainly with an occasional star signing. I don't hoard wonderkids at all with the exception of homegrown British and Irish youngsters. So if there's no homegrown talent coming through the underage teams or elsewhere in the league, I'll cast the net wide over Europe and S America.

4. Try to persuade retiring players to go on the coaching staff once I retain the current staff on becoming manager. Shankly did this in 1959, arguably the most important decision in the club's history along with his appointment. I don't have much luck though in persuading former players to go on the coaching staff.

5. I also use Appy Ammers European competitions file which recreates the old knockout competitons from the 80s and includes the old European Cup. I absolutely despise the current formats.

I tend to find doing the above things keeps me interested in a save. I dont manage any other clubs.

Edited January 31 by irish kopite
Include link

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, irish kopite said:

I've run "Bootroom" saves over many editions as Liverpool manager. I try to impose a clear way of doings things on the basis of what would the Bootroom do if they were around today?

1. Tactical style.

2. Training sessions focusing on small- sided games which emphasize an aspect of the team's approach. Like pressing the opponent, playing from the back, keeping the ball etc. Ok there's a bit of imagination here but read the descriptions in game! I also look for simple sessions which focus on the basic skills of first touch, passing, finishing etc. I avoid tactical sessions in keeping with Bootroom tradition.

3. Scouting- I'd focus on European players in the 20- 23 age bracket mainly with an occasional star signing. I don't hoard wonderkids at all with the exception of homegrown British and Irish youngsters. So if there's no homegrown talent coming through the underage teams or elsewhere in the league, I'll cast the net wide over Europe and S America.

4. Try to persuade retiring players to go on the coaching staff once I retain the current staff on becoming manager. Shankly did this in 1959, arguably the most important decision in the club's history along with his appointment. I don't have much luck though in persuading former players to go on the coaching staff.

5. I also use Appy Ammers European competitions file which recreates the old knockout competitons from the 80s and includes the old European Cup. I absolutely despise the current formats.

I tend to find doing the above things keeps me interested in a save. I dont manage any other clubs.

Love it! Self-imposed house rules like this really immerse one in the save. I'm also a fan of old-style European competitions. You know the "Champions" Cup where you actually had to be domestic champion to compete. Will definitely have to look in this database. And once again thanks for the super helpful quality tactical post before. I'm rereading it again and getting a clearer picture on how to set up my 4-4-2. Wish I could book mark it for everyone to see better 

[NineCloudNine]

7 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

I like the South Americans with Italian passport one! But do you find enough like that? Especially among the newgens?

 

 

 

I rarely play saves long enough for newgens to be a major element, I always get some other idea for a narrative and go play that !

In this case I also research dual nationality players and add second nationalities in the editor where they are missing in FM.

This Roma save has Lorenzo Pellegrini playing as a WM. He has high crossing, set pieces and workrate so is a good candidate for a quasi-Beckham role.

Edited February 1 by NineCloudNine

[Novem9]

В 01.02.2024 в 01:26, crusadertsar сказал:

Those are some good rules of thumb 

I like the South Americans with Italian passport one! But do you find enough like that? Especially among the newgens?

My transfer rule with Real Sociedad has been similar to what Athletic Bilbao implements meaning I can only use Basque players from my own academy or other Basque players from other clubs. But I do give exception to any newgen that comes through my own "canters"/academy. Sometimes I get some unique ones like this exceptional Belgian keeper that graduated in 2nd season. 

 

 

 

Absolutely yes, playable leagues of Argentina+Brazil+Uruguay = factory of Italian newgens

[Novem9]

В 01.02.2024 в 01:02, NineCloudNine сказал:

I always set transfer rules, otherwise it just gets overwhelming.

In my current Roma save it’s: 

1. Youth team

2. South Americans with Italian passports

3. Italians over 24 bought from other Serie A clubs

Oh and DDR as my Assistant .

I’m only allowing ‘exotic’ roles when they are required to force positioning changes, like the Half Back. Otherwise it’s vanilla roles only.

Nice!

I always play with authentic transfers. Check map , transfer stats of club/country in transfermatkt, etc. And I just enjoy when my squad balanced by flags and languages. Some simple rules, which do not feel prohibitive restrictions. rather gambling conditions

[HanziZoloman]

Just read the introduction and will dig in as soon as I can. Great topic @crusadertsar I love your historical context and the pictures. It’s like the golden years are back. 
Have not read about which club you take but I hope it’s Blackburn. The rose that grew in concrete. Ahhhh Allen Shearer he’s my man. 

[crusadertsar]

3 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Just read the introduction and will dig in as soon as I can. Great topic @crusadertsar I love your historical context and the pictures. It’s like the golden years are back. 
Have not read about which club you take but I hope it’s Blackburn. The rose that grew in concrete. Ahhhh Allen Shearer he’s my man. 

Actually funny story   actually I decided to take the challenge given by Real Sociedad board and was able to keep my job. Got 11 points out of needed 9 in 5 games. All using my new 4-4-2 tactic. Will definitely have to write more about it. Early on it already seems like a good one.

Just love my Basque save too much.

Edited February 4 by crusadertsar

[NineCloudNine]

On 03/02/2024 at 09:55, Novem9 said:

Absolutely yes, playable leagues of Argentina+Brazil+Uruguay = factory of Italian newgens

 

//waaaaay off topic

The story of Italian immigration to those countries is fascinating. In Brazil a majority settled in Sao Paulo, to the extent that that city contains more people of Italian heritage than anywhere in the world outside Italy. Palmeiras was founded by Italians and was originally called Palestra Italia. Palmeiras, Sao Paulo and also Internacional and Cruzeiro continue to have strong Italian connections even now.

//back to the thread topic! Sorry!

[Novem9]

В 04.02.2024 в 22:11, NineCloudNine сказал:

//waaaaay off topic

The story of Italian immigration to those countries is fascinating. In Brazil a majority settled in Sao Paulo, to the extent that that city contains more people of Italian heritage than anywhere in the world outside Italy. Palmeiras was founded by Italians and was originally called Palestra Italia. Palmeiras, Sao Paulo and also Internacional and Cruzeiro continue to have strong Italian connections even now.

Club Peñarol was founded by Italian migrant named Pignarolo, who was born in town Pinerolo

В 04.02.2024 в 22:11, NineCloudNine сказал:

//back to the thread topic! Sorry!

One for me too  

Edited February 23 by Novem9

[Ti Ago]

Em 22/01/2024 em 14:26, crusadertsar disse:

As much as I love writing about Dutch Total Football, or Brazilian Jogo Bonito or Mourinho-inspired Pragmatic style of football (my recent Defence-First thread), I feel like there has been a lot of tactical discussion about those styles and tactics. For every Pep Guardiola's Man City's inspired thread there is another generic 4231 or 433 thread. I like a good 433 as much as anyone does, but I also get bored easily which is another reason why you see me switch tactics and teams so often. I also find it's surprising that with a sport that ultimately has its origins on the island of Albion, and a computer game which probably has a huge chunk of its fanbase in England, the classic English school of football has not been more prominently featured here on this forum. Not recently at least. I find there is a distinct lack of good old 4-4-2 Simple English football discussion and I plan to rectify this 

By "Good old simple English 4-4-2" I really mean the fluid "pass-and-move" football style implemented by Bob Paisley at Liverpool during the club's undeniably most successful era from 1975 to 1983. I believe that six 1st Division titles and three Champions League trophies (European Cups at the time) don't lie. 

 

- Bob Paisley 

The Historical Context

Bob Paisley was a very modest manager and did not really see himself as some sort of "Special One" or a tactical genius. In fact, he did not view himself as a tactician at all. Instead, Paisley was heavily influenced in his coaching approach by his predecessor and mentor Bill Shankly. He based his management around his knack to evaluate the ability of each player. Meaning that if 11 players fit the basic 4-4-2 system and were intelligent enough to read the game themselves, then tactical coaching should be kept to a minimum. Let creative strikers be creative and finishers be clinical. Or in other words Paisley would let Kenny Dalglish do his thing while Ian Rush did what he did best, that is score goals. Of course King Kenny scored his fair share of goals too but that's a story for another time. 

In short, Bob Paisley was a great innate football manager because he would not get hung up in the specifics and technicalities of tactics but instead had an amazing ability to bring all of his players skills and abilities and allow them to create something much greater together. And 4-4-2 formation proved to be a great drawing board for this. 

Paisley's genius was in taking a much more hands-on approach to recruitment, and bringing in Ian Rush, Bruce Grobbelaar, Mark Lawrenson and, most notably, "King" Kenny Dalglish. All veritable legends of English football. It was the signing (for a British record fee of £440,000 at the time) of the creative Deep-lying Forward Dalglish that was the final piece in the Liverpool success puzzle. It was Kenny's subtle creativity and ability to read the game which allowed Paisley's 4-4-2 to shift into a 4-4-1-1 with ease. A tactical development that was still rather fresh in late 1970s as you can remember it was not that long from the innovative Dutch teams of 1970s with their own innovative 4-3-3 centered by a False 9 Johan Cruyff.  

One could also mention what Liverpool accomplished during Paisley's nine-year tenure for years. It's not something that many other managers have been able to beat or even equal since. In a period when the European Cup (current Champions League) was immeasurably harder to win than it is now (with only actual league winners gaining qualification as it should be in a cup called "Champions" League!), Paisley became the first manager in history to win the trophy three times, with only Carlo Ancelotti and Zinedine Zidane matching that feat since. 

While my inspiration to turn to 4-4-2 has been largely due to the influence of Bob Paisley, as I wrote earlier he was probably one of the last of the school of English "non-tactician" coaches, and therefore it is really hard to find detailed descriptions of how his Liverpool 4-4-2 played. He was a true players' manager and not an armchair tactician in a sense that like Shankly before him he gave his players freedom to play the way they were best at. Recruitment and nurturing talent were Paisley's strengths. In a way, he would have been the Football Manager player that collects all the best wonderkids, puts them in their best roles in a simple formation and wreaks havoc on the league. And after I my previous less than stellar attempt with Real Sociedad (we were very good defensively but not so good at winning titles but more on that later), I am itching to emulate this type of less stressful, free-form way of managing. The management that is done in the Boot Room and not on a blackboard. Looks much more pleasant doesn't it?! 

 

Thus keeping that in mind my idea for recreating a vintage 4-4-2 Liverpool tactic centers around making a very general tactic with only few instructions to really give the power to the players. Not to get bogged down in micromanaging every little instruction. Much in the same vein as those old-school English managers like Shankly, Paisley and Kenny Dalglish who did not like to burden their players with layer upon layer of tactical complexity. The old "Boot Room" managers scoffed at such over-thinking as a Continental European football thing, an obsession with academic coaching jargon and tactical technicalities. To them football was above all else a game, the players' game played by footballers, not like chess played by tacticians. The reason why Paisley's and Dalglish's Liverpool teams succeeded in that era was because the two managers were masters in assembling the right players and giving them free reign to express their skills. So basically finding players with very good decisions, work rate, off the ball movement, vision and teamwork. And lots of aggression in midfield! I would try to set up a very fluid sort of tactic with generic roles mostly passing around short, roaming around and working hard to close down hard in a midblock. And I agree most of the width should come from wingbacks, as the central midfielders and wide midfielders should try to keep a compact system in the middle. 

So even as Shankly and Paisley scoffed at the "Continental way" of playing football, there still emerged a well-defined tactic that we now associate with that great Liverpool team of the 70s-80s. Unfortunately neither Shankly nor his successor Paisley wrote much on how they set up their formations. Fortunately we do know quite a bit on how Paisley's mentee Kenny Dalglish went about setting up his teams when he became manager. Dalglish' tactical inspiration was largely built on ideas which he as Paisley's star striker picked up on while playing for him. So it was only natural that he would use many of the same concepts when he himself became manager first for Liverpool and then Blackburn in 1990s. We all remember that Blackburn side for a good reason, but we must also keep in mind that before coming over to Ewood Park, Kenny already won thre 1st division titles with Liverpool.

Kenny Dalglish's immensely successful 4-4-2 at Blackburn with its two star strikers Shearer and Sutton (where Shearer worked hard to bring out his magical clinical touch and Sutton dropped deeper to give creative support) took more than a few cues from Paisley's Liverpool. Dalglish himself played as a Deep-lying Forward, a key cog in Paisley's system. Here one can draw parallels to how Johan Cruyff learned Dutch-style 433 under his manager Rinus Michels before implementing it himself as a manager. There is actually a long progression of managers who learned their favourite formation while playing for their manager/mentor. Pep Guardiola, who himself learned in turn from Cruyff, is another one that kept the Dutch-style 433 flame burning. 

Same unfortunately did not happen to English-style 442 as it didn't capture the imagination of the young generation of managers in the same way. Dalglish and Roy Hodgson probably being the last great British 4-4-2 managers. But let's not get sentimental as I hope that this thread can hopefully reignite that flame on this forum at least. 

Conceptual Phase

 

So without further ado, the basic tactical concept is this. Tactically at both Liverpool and Blackburn Kenny Dalglish's system essentially followed the same model established by Bob Paisley: a basic 4-4-2 with a genuine winger (John Barnes) on one flank and a more tucked-in midfielder on the other (Ray Houghton), and a deep-lying forward (Peter Beardsley in the role Dalglish himself once occupied) working off a classic striker type with good clinical instincts, heading and generally well-rounded physical profile. Fast, strong and able to jump. A striker who would also work across the line. Basically like Ian Rush, Dalglish's striker partner at Liverpool, at his prime. Or the Irish international Aldridge whom Dalglish used in the same role at Liverpool. Then both full-backs were encouraged to push on, and at least one of the centre‑backs had license to stride out with the ball into midfield, a more creative ball-carrying defender. That's basically most of the requirements. Still working out the other tactical instructions to recreate the basic fast moving short passing style. It will probably resemble the modern Vertical Tiki Taka style in a way but not as strictly structured around a heavy possession style. More of a fluid-counter where you control the ball in your own half, win it back as soon as you can and launch deadly attacks via the two strikers upfront. 

In order to recreate Paisley's signature "Pass and Move" style there are a few instructions that I will probably include, although nothing is set in stone yet. In this sense, I will try to keep to the general idea of developing a fluid 4-4-2 where centre mids work hard, the wide midfielders both tuck in and support the two strikers and fullbacks push up to provide width. And the two strikers who compliment each other innately - one more attacking (Ian Rush type) and one more creative (Dalglish type). Oh yes, and one centreback that brings the ball forward. That's pretty much it. The roles I intend to use will be generic ones for the most part so the big importance will actually fall on the player attributes and traits. 

To give a perfect example, here is a player whom I intend to fill my "Dalglish role". The kid is a natural DLF with attributes and even some traits to embrace that particular role and make it his own for many seasons to come. He was actually one of the reasons I chose the club I did when its job positing became available. I went down in league level but don't really care because I am a player's manager and really really want to nurture this particular talent. To me this game is mostly about discovering amazing newgens anyway. Can you guess where I will be managing now? It's not quite Liverpool but close  (They even share the same rival)

The objective is really simple to try to achieve this style with the least possible tactical overhead. Least complication and "tactical munchkin" strategies. Let's try not to overthink for once and just try to give the player roles the freedom that they deserve. Of course you will need very good players for this. And that is my other goal for this project, build a team of amazing newgen wonderkids that can nevertheless work together to bring forth some pretty appealing attacking football. I will not be limited by strict tactical recreations here because I am not recreating an over-analyzed tactic like those of Pep's Man City or Arteta's Arsenal. I am rather tired of reading endless recreations of those systems. No, in this project I will try to keep in mind that both football and FM are games, meant to be fun. 

FM24 Context

Some of you might be confused as to why I had a sudden change in gears from my previous Real Sociedad Defence-First Football Project. Well, partially it was not of my own choosing (I was sacked ). So that also puts a stop to my Brazilian 4-2-2-2 Box experiment too. Sadly don't have the players for that now. Yet I actually hope to keep a lot of the same Defence-First concepts alive in the new tactic. Especially because English football from the Shankly and Paisley era was largely built on the idea of fusing physicality, hard discipline and defensive workrate (all quite stereotypical of English football) with a healthy infusion of technical possession-focused passing (blame those pesky Continental Europeans, aka Red Star Belgrade for that haha - if curious check out my old thread going into detail on this particular development: 

I rather not overburden this thread with more historical background but for those who are curious you could read my long post from page 14 of that even loooonger thread. If you want to see how Shankly's disliked Continental style of football actually influenced his tactic, and changed English-style 4-4-2 forevermore. 

 

 

Hello 

What skin are you using 

To show that DNA pizza

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, Ti Ago said:

Hello 

What skin are you using 

To show that DNA pizza

It's called SaS24 skin and you can probably find it on most popular FM fan download sites.