The Realism Thread

[southside]

Tony Mowbray has just been appointed England manager after the euros in my save

[Platinum]

For all the realism folks Ive made the thread below in the feature requests forum. The feature will make the game much more realistic, please give it a read and reply in the thread and give your views if its something you would like. I would guess most of you would like something like this.

 

Basically it is asking for the managers view of player attributes to be based on your coaches and scouts JPA (judging player ability) instead of being able to see the 'ground truth' attributes. In real life every coaches and scouts view on a player is different and this should be reflecting in the game, instead of us finding out what the players true values are.

 

[Junkhead]

2 hours ago, southside said:

Tony Mowbray has just been appointed England manager after the euros in my save

Dunno which part is least realistic - Mowbray, or the Euros going ahead as scheduled 😉

[Junkhead]

55 minutes ago, francis#17 said:

For all the realism folks Ive made the thread below in the feature requests forum. The feature will make the game much more realistic, please give it a read and reply in the thread and give your views if its something you would like. I would guess most of you would like something like this.

 

Basically it is asking for the managers view of player attributes to be based on your coaches and scouts JPA (judging player ability) instead of being able to see the 'ground truth' attributes. In real life every coaches and scouts view on a player is different and this should be reflecting in the game, instead of us finding out what the players true values are.

 

100% agree with that 👍

[Broken_Record]

Don't know if this has been discussed or not but anyway. In real life I'm constantly seeing news about transfer or contract offers snubbed by clubs and players. With the FM's transfer system this is basically not happening as you can just negotiate deals that satisfy both parties (and this is always done in tens of seconds or at least in minutes). 

In my opinion the old system, where you just had to place a bid and wait was definitely something that makes it closer to reality and also creates way more challenging transfer market as well as even long term transfer sagas that are really common in real life but not that much on FM. 

At least some kind of a hybrid would be a really welcome addition in my opinion. With the current system I don't find squad building anywhere near challenging enough. Of course this is only one part of that but anyway. 

[TokyoWanderer]

hace 21 horas, francis#17 dijo:

For all the realism folks Ive made the thread below in the feature requests forum. The feature will make the game much more realistic, please give it a read and reply in the thread and give your views if its something you would like. I would guess most of you would like something like this.

 

Basically it is asking for the managers view of player attributes to be based on your coaches and scouts JPA (judging player ability) instead of being able to see the 'ground truth' attributes. In real life every coaches and scouts view on a player is different and this should be reflecting in the game, instead of us finding out what the players true values are.

 

If I can play devil's advocate here, I would say the high number of attributes per player and the complexity of the match engine reduce the need for this fog of war you want. If on this thread we were to compare a given player's dribbling ability based on his attributes, I'm sure we would arrive to different valuations depending on how we think the different attributes impact dribbling. The key here is that we don't know exactly how attributes impact what happens on the pitch.

For example, you may see high dribbling and agility attributes and conclude the player is a great dribbler, while I may judge he is average based on this hypotethical player's average speed, flair and balance. These differences in valuation would be even greater if we are judging the whole player. For me, the best proof of how this works is the fact that in every team I've managed I've been surprised by players performing much better or much worse than I thought they would based on their attributes.

To take my argument one step further, it could be argued that most attributes in isolation can be judged in a fairly objective way. You can definetely do it with the physical attributes and most of the technical attributes. 

What I think the game needs is for player attributes to fluctuate much more than they do and for scouting of players in other teams to be MUCH harder than it currently is. In that way you would have more cases where you buy a player thinking he is very good and ends up being bad, which obviously happens a lot in real football and not enough in FM.

Good post! Was fun to think about this.

[LHurlz]

@TokyoWanderer Imo this is just crossing into hyper-realism. It would be so unrewarding and demoralising to spend time and effort scouting players only for them to turn out to be nowhere near as good as your scout reports say.  

[Brother Ben]

14 hours ago, LHurlz said:

@TokyoWanderer Imo this is just crossing into hyper-realism. It would be so unrewarding and demoralising to spend time and effort scouting players only for them to turn out to be nowhere near as good as your scout reports say.  

This is exactly what I would find rewarding

[WilsonJuve]

14 hours ago, LHurlz said:

@TokyoWanderer Imo this is just crossing into hyper-realism. It would be so unrewarding and demoralising to spend time and effort scouting players only for them to turn out to be nowhere near as good as your scout reports say.  

Of course some players wouldn’t like this but having it as an option for the ones that do is the point of the post I believe. People will always play the game they want to play. I mean a lot of people play without hiding any attributes. With a lot of my saves I try to bring youngsters through into my first team so I don’t really spend a lot of time scouting players. But imagine the joy when you have brought in maybe one or two dud players for your lower league side. Then you manage to unearth an absolute world beater. 

[Brother Ben]

20 minutes ago, WilsonJuve said:

But imagine the joy when you have brought in maybe one or two dud players for your lower league side. Then you manage to unearth an absolute world beater. 

This is the outcome of the entire LLM ethos and what makes it so rewarding in a nutshell

you can replace the first sentence with relegations or sackings and the second with promotions or big job offers and it amounts to the same thing.  Things are always more rewarding if you have had to struggle to achieve it, so harder scouting is a natural progression towards extra realism.

Real football is a struggle, a lot of well respected managers never make it out of the lower leagues and don't have any silverware or very little to show for it but that's where the realism lies, and to achieve it you need to temper what you consider success.

I've mentioned this before on this site that In my own save in FM19 I got relegated from the English 6th tier down to the 7th in my second season and spent another decade or so in the division below but thanks to a patient board when I finally got promoted back to the league above I was elated, was one of the the best FM moments for me ever because it took so long and was all my own work.  

Well that's my 10 cents from an old LLaMa anyway 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Brother Ben

[majesticeternity]

Not perfect, but here what I'm using to create realism with players and scouting.

For younger, less established players, I have no idea their attributes, best roles, or anything. I can only go off stats, form, what position they play, and footedness. For more established players, only the attribute analysis is added.

Also disabled player search:

[Junkhead]

2 hours ago, majesticeternity said:

Not perfect, but here what I'm using to create realism with players and scouting.

For younger, less established players, I have no idea their attributes, best roles, or anything. I can only go off stats, form, what position they play, and footedness. For more established players, only the attribute analysis is added.

 

Is the attribute analysis added only with scouting? Or at a certain age?

[majesticeternity]

1 hour ago, Junkhead said:

Is the attribute analysis added only with scouting? Or at a certain age?

Scouting. Player Knowledge.

So Ronaldo I can see as he's so popular/established:

[Tyburn]

I’m intrigued to know ... as we can mod and skin the game, to large degrees, as we wish, is there a package out there that, not only hides attributes in the skin, but also specifically caters for this type of game experience? By that I mean, is there a skin and / or mod package out there that gets rid of lots of the things we have to ‘trust’ ourselves to set as rules for this type of gameplay? The whole star rating system. Can it be, theoretically, removed from our view? Can we tweak and alter the scouting centre, for instance, in a way that forces us to play a certain way, rather than relying on us setting our own rules?

If I could be pointed in the right direction for skins, mods etc that would do this, then that would be great, however what I really want to know is just how much is possible to be modded in FM? Creating a realism package, skin, mods really appeals. We can change so much within the game. I’m sure we can go further with altering it ourselves to create a hardcore version, as apposed to using will alone.

 

[Brother Ben]

1 hour ago, Tyburn said:

I’m intrigued to know ... as we can mod and skin the game, to large degrees, as we wish, is there a package out there that, not only hides attributes in the skin, but also specifically caters for this type of game experience? By that I mean, is there a skin and / or mod package out there that gets rid of lots of the things we have to ‘trust’ ourselves to set as rules for this type of gameplay? The whole star rating system. Can it be, theoretically, removed from our view? Can we tweak and alter the scouting centre, for instance, in a way that forces us to play a certain way, rather than relying on us setting our own rules?

If I could be pointed in the right direction for skins, mods etc that would do this, then that would be great, however what I really want to know is just how much is possible to be modded in FM? Creating a realism package, skin, mods really appeals. We can change so much within the game. I’m sure we can go further with altering it ourselves to create a hardcore version, as apposed to using will alone.

 

There is one released already, all the stars are gone, and the attributes seem to be just the colours between certain ranges.  (not sure if its been mentioned yet)

https://www.fmscout.com/c-fm21-skins.html?id=7210

I'm yet to test it myself but the likelihood is that I would change my colours to one colour for attributes a player is really bad at (1-5) then one colour from (5-13) and another for standout attributes (14+). 

I think this would be the the most realistic way of doing it in my opinion so that you'd know for example that a certain player was quick and good at crossing but lacked in say marking and positioning.  I can imagine in real life assessing a player that way. 

The top and bottom end of the scale I may tweak depending on what end of the football pyramid I was managing at. 

it looks like this

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Brother Ben

[Platinum]

1 hour ago, Tyburn said:

I’m intrigued to know ... as we can mod and skin the game, to large degrees, as we wish, is there a package out there that, not only hides attributes in the skin, but also specifically caters for this type of game experience? By that I mean, is there a skin and / or mod package out there that gets rid of lots of the things we have to ‘trust’ ourselves to set as rules for this type of gameplay? The whole star rating system. Can it be, theoretically, removed from our view? Can we tweak and alter the scouting centre, for instance, in a way that forces us to play a certain way, rather than relying on us setting our own rules?

If I could be pointed in the right direction for skins, mods etc that would do this, then that would be great, however what I really want to know is just how much is possible to be modded in FM? Creating a realism package, skin, mods really appeals. We can change so much within the game. I’m sure we can go further with altering it ourselves to create a hardcore version, as apposed to using will alone.

 

The best and most comprehensive skin out there that I know of. There are no attributes anywhere in the game. 

@Brother Ben 

 

[Brother Ben]

7 minutes ago, francis#17 said:

The best and most comprehensive skin out there that I know of. There are no attributes anywhere in the game. 

@Brother Ben 

 

Love that.  I will say though it does still show current and potential ability in the screenshot below.  In the absence of exact attributes I can see myself leaning heavily on that and it's what I'd like to get away from really

Edited January 15, 2021 by Brother Ben

[majesticeternity]

2 hours ago, Brother Ben said:

Love that.  I will say though it does still show current and potential ability in the screenshot below.  In the absence of exact attributes I can see myself leaning heavily on that and it's what I'd like to get away from really

It probably can’t be entirely removed, but you remove them from the player overview panel. removing the player search means the only thing remaining is the views, which can be edited. Also, blank star images could be added.

[Junkhead]

Anyone looking to start a new save might want to have a look round https://www.the9llamas.com/ - some great resources and the old school LLaMa rules for anyone interested!

[bazhsw]

Had a look at the link and to my joy also found http://www.lowerleaguemanager.xyz/forum/index.php is back.  When I started playing again in the summer I was saddened that place had seemingly gone.

Nice to see some old llamas are still about (don't want to be partisan but those on lowerleaguemanager used the same guidelines and ethos as the LLM forum on here but it felt a lot more fun / welcoming).

Nice to see the children of Paco and Frank are still about

[Brother Ben]

1 hour ago, bazhsw said:

Had a look at the link and to my joy also found http://www.lowerleaguemanager.xyz/forum/index.php is back.  When I started playing again in the summer I was saddened that place had seemingly gone.

Nice to see some old llamas are still about (don't want to be partisan but those on lowerleaguemanager used the same guidelines and ethos as the LLM forum on here but it felt a lot more fun / welcoming).

Nice to see the children of Paco and Frank are still about

Yeah the site went down for a while but one of the guys managed to rescue it.  

I think it's a really friendly forum, inspired me on my LLM journey, so much so that I ended up making the9llamas site.  I can't give them higher praise than that.

The Old Grey Llama is trying his best to step out of the shadow of Frank and Paco 

[Junkhead]

And the yellow llama understands the nightmare that is Karabükspor - hopefully he can hack it for longer than I could haha

Still might end up going back to that save

[bazhsw]

53 minutes ago, Brother Ben said:

Yeah the site went down for a while but one of the guys managed to rescue it.  

I think it's a really friendly forum, inspired me on my LLM journey, so much so that I ended up making the9llamas site.  I can't give them higher praise than that.

The Old Grey Llama is trying his best to step out of the shadow of Frank and Paco 

I really like what you have done with the site.  I like how it sets out the guidelines and the scope / ethos of LLM and it has plenty of resources for people new to this way of playing.

 

I love you've embedded the one hour travel time map as it's something I always found helped with immersion.

 

I also like how LLM isn't 'set in stone', it's an ethos, a way of thinking about the game and an approach.  I think some of the thoughts about additional leagues and how the game has changed is really good.

 

So for instance additional leagues aren't 'the spawn of Satan' but really are something to review as to their suitability for our saves.  Does 'league x' make our save more or less realistic and as important - is it fun.  Do we need to approach our player recruitment differently?  (The lowest levels in some of the UK files divisions are very localised and I think the one hour drive is a stretch.  Some of the local leagues here may sign non contract players but realistically from less than five miles away because they're all amateur lads having a game on a Saturday).

 

So great work to everyone involved and I hope it inspires many saves

[Brother Ben]

On 16/01/2021 at 12:24, bazhsw said:

I really like what you have done with the site.  I like how it sets out the guidelines and the scope / ethos of LLM and it has plenty of resources for people new to this way of playing.

 

I love you've embedded the one hour travel time map as it's something I always found helped with immersion.

 

I also like how LLM isn't 'set in stone', it's an ethos, a way of thinking about the game and an approach.  I think some of the thoughts about additional leagues and how the game has changed is really good.

 

So for instance additional leagues aren't 'the spawn of Satan' but really are something to review as to their suitability for our saves.  Does 'league x' make our save more or less realistic and as important - is it fun.  Do we need to approach our player recruitment differently?  (The lowest levels in some of the UK files divisions are very localised and I think the one hour drive is a stretch.  Some of the local leagues here may sign non contract players but realistically from less than five miles away because they're all amateur lads having a game on a Saturday).

 

So great work to everyone involved and I hope it inspires many saves

Cheers bazhsw, the timetravel map is a great resource, it's an essential part of LLM for me

There's many schools of thought for LLM, of course there are parts that are non negotiable but things like the one hour rule are things that I like to add to it myself for extra realism.

I think a lot of LLMers are split on expansion leagues and I made the "anonymous llama" as a light hearted nod this

I'm very wary myself but like you say if they are well researched etc then I don't see the problem especially as I'll thoroughly test them on holiday over night to check everything works okay. 

I'm looking forward to either Dan or Messi's English lower league files as they are without doubt the best around and to say they are incompatible with the LLM guidelines is unfair in my mind.  What can be argued of course is how low is realistic.  I would say adding level 7 & 8 to England is realistic as below this the player research isn't there and the attributes bottom out meaning there isn't much difference between a player at level 8 and say level 11/12 and it seems way to easy to have back to back promotions.  But again that's just me and i'd love to hear others thoughts.

It's interesting that you mention the fun aspect of it, that's a really good point.  I think that despite what some think of the LLM "rules" it does in my mind make it far more fun long term, unless your idea of fun is to win back to back champions leagues with a top club of course.

I like your thoughts on recruitment distances a lot, an hour is pretty arbitrary really so adjusting it for amateur players makes a lot of sense

Thanks again it was hard work but worth it.  Big thanks to @Junkhead who contributed and gave me lots of motivation on the way

[bazhsw]

35 minutes ago, Brother Ben said:

Cheers bazhsw, the timetravel map is a great resource, it's an essential part of LLM for me

There's many schools of thought for LLM, of course there are parts that are non negotiable but things like the one hour rule are things that I like to add to it myself for extra realism.

I think a lot of LLMers are split on expansion leagues and I made the "anonymous llama" as a light hearted nod this

I'm very wary myself but like you say if they are well researched etc then I don't see the problem especially as I'll thoroughly test them on holiday over night to check everything works okay. 

I'm looking forward to either Dan or Messi's English lower league files as they are without doubt the best around and to say they are incompatible with the LLM guidelines is unfair in my mind.  What can be argued of course is how low is realistic.  I would say adding level 7 & 8 to England is realistic as below this the player research isn't there and the attributes bottom out meaning there isn't much difference between a player at level 8 and say level 11/12 and it seems way to easy to have back to back promotions.  But again that's just me and i'd love to hear others thoughts.

It's interesting that you mention the fun aspect of it, that's a really good point.  I think that despite what some think of the LLM "rules" it does in my mind make it far more fun long term, unless your idea of fun is to win back to back champions leagues with a top club of course.

I like your thoughts on recruitment distances a lot, an hour is pretty arbitrary really so adjusting it for amateur players makes a lot of sense

Thanks again it was hard work but worth it.  Big thanks to @Junkhead who contributed and gave me lots of motivation on the way

Yeah, sometimes I got the impression others thought LLM was part of a purity test (and to be fair at times I think some presented it that way) when those who play that way (in my opinion) don't do it as a challenge or for it to be hard but more because it feels the most natural way to play.  It's not a 'FM Cult'.

I'm of the view that llamas aren't slavishly following a set of rules and more consistently evaluating what's realistic in their games.

There is a non-league team about 20 min walk away from me in the first non-playable FM level and the one hour rule is spot on, probably closer to half an hour and yet if I walk for another fifteen min I hit another team who are three divisions lower.  Managing them would mean only picking up players through their youth or from about a third of the division as amateurs.

 

It's all about what is fun.

 

One thing I have noticed on this FM which is different to the past is the seemingly massive backroom and the number of hires you can get for teams that don't need or realistically shouldn't be able to support them.  I think when these questions crop up we ask ourselves not only what is realistic but what is fun for us.

[Brother Ben]

1 hour ago, bazhsw said:

Yeah, sometimes I got the impression others thought LLM was part of a purity test (and to be fair at times I think some presented it that way) when those who play that way (in my opinion) don't do it as a challenge or for it to be hard but more because it feels the most natural way to play.  It's not a 'FM Cult'.

I'm of the view that llamas aren't slavishly following a set of rules and more consistently evaluating what's realistic in their games.

There is a non-league team about 20 min walk away from me in the first non-playable FM level and the one hour rule is spot on, probably closer to half an hour and yet if I walk for another fifteen min I hit another team who are three divisions lower.  Managing them would mean only picking up players through their youth or from about a third of the division as amateurs.

 

It's all about what is fun.

 

One thing I have noticed on this FM which is different to the past is the seemingly massive backroom and the number of hires you can get for teams that don't need or realistically shouldn't be able to support them.  I think when these questions crop up we ask ourselves not only what is realistic but what is fun for us.

I agree completely.  Playing this way is second nature to me now. 

in terms of backroom staff I have to say I've not really had chance to play FM21 at all really so that's definitely something to keep an eye on

[Bahamontes]

On 27/11/2020 at 09:18, MrManagerMan said:

Another thing I do to keep it realistic is that I’m not allowed to pause the match to change anything or to make a sub. Has to be done as the clock is ticking. I also make sure it saves over itself after every match. If I lose, I lose.

Something I do myself. I watch every game in its entirety. Full 90min. Sometimes it is a dreadful experience and sometimes it is pure joy. Obviously I takes a while to finish a season but for me it is worth it (every year I'm also toying with an real time save). I also play the no attribute way. I tend to moneyball but this is kind of another story.

[Brother Ben]

2 hours ago, Bahamontes said:

Something I do myself. I watch every game in its entirety. Full 90min. Sometimes it is a dreadful experience and sometimes it is pure joy. Obviously I takes a while to finish a season but for me it is worth it (every year I'm also toying with an real time save). I also play the no attribute way. I tend to moneyball but this is kind of another story.

A realtime blog would be great I remember this from FM13 https://realtimefm.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/introductio/

[twattyatkins]

This is a great thread! Shame they removed the old LLM forum as I've always played this way. 

In terms of realism I try and play the game as realisticly as possible. I always start as myself, Sunday League with no badges and go out into the FM world unemployed. I only load up the home nations, Ireland and the top leagues from France, Germany, Italy and Spain as my laptop isn't that great.

This year I landed the job at Llanelli Town in the Cymru South around October time and somehow ended up winning the league in my first season. 2021/22 finished 4th in the Welsh Premier and won the Welsh Cup which means we got into the Europa League qualifiers. Currently in 21/22 where we actually got to the 3rd qualifying round after beating Kosovan oppostion in the first round, fluked a penalty win over Dinamo Minsk in the second before being thrashed by Servette in the third round.

December comes round we're 5th in the league, and I'm then offered the job at a struggling Bath City in the Vanarama South. I looked at it and decided to take it as it's a 90 minute drive from my house, rather than over 2 hours to Llanelli who were paying me 230 quid a week compared to the 650 Bath were offering me. Plus I figured it's a slightly better standard of league. 5 games in at City W2 D1 L2 sitting 6 points clear of the relegation zone around half way through the season.

I sometimes think I take the realism thing too far but I like to properly immerse myself in the game like it's actually me doing it. Relieved to read there's like minded people 😂

[bazhsw]

I have some thoughts which I think sit here that are not really LLM related but I think will strike a chord with some of us here.

Every year since time immemorial there are countless threads about the game being too easy and there are always threads about the game cheating.  They both bother me somewhat for different reasons but they have an impact on realism and do not occur with LLM (as far as I can see).

 

The big issue with the game being easy for me is that unless you have always played LLM and been committed to avoiding anywhere where tips and advice are given you will invariably have digested some wisdom about how to play the game better.  Furthermore, despite the gradual changes to the game year on year the game hasn't changed as much as one thinks over the years.

 

What I think this means is, that the people who really think about tactics and provide advice are building on 20 years of FM knowledge and that knowledge is growing and growing exponentially (building on newer people's enthusiasm, using the experience of others).  There are tens of thousands of posts in the tactics and good players forums, there is the capacity to see hidden values, lists of wonderkids and decades of blogs, guides and content.  In effect FM cannot be 'harder' (it is probably bewildering to new players who are necessary for the series to grow) because it can never catch up and present a new challenge to those who not only have played for decades but assimilated the collective knowledge of many, many well intentioned enthusiastic managers over the years sharing their expertise.

 

In short, tipping has broke the series and only LLM can save it

 

I jest, but if one is finding the game easy I think they need to look at their history with the game and how they have accessed support and help.

 

Secondly, I am of the opinion that there is a way to 'beat' the game.  For long term players you learn what works most of the time and every year it seems people talk about OP tactics.  There has always been ME exploits but there is now an industry of creating ME exploit tactics.  Everyone's favourite style seems to be the tactics known for exploit / success.  What that leads to is an incomprehensible failure to understand why their team has lost a game when they have won 100 games on the trot or whatever.

 

I am of the opinion that 'big match' drama exists in FM and I absolutely love it!  I want to get away with an exceptionally lucky win.  I want to experience that rage and frustration when a ball goes off the arse of my defender in the last minute of a cup final.  What I think some players feel is that they have 'won FM' and that their body of knowledge / experience means that they should experience the same outcomes time after time.  So because their OP tactics, players and game knowledge means Liverpool win most games 5-0 when they don't experience it they go in a massive sulk about it, even though it happened the ten games before.

Football isn't as unpredictable as we would like (see any league table for proof) but it is more unpredictable than some think (picking five home wins on the fixed odds should be easy right?).

FM is more realistic and is beautiful for it when something brilliant or devastating happens in a big game.  Big games are where stories are made.  We remember missed sitters, nonsensical sending offs, missed penalties, own goals, and brilliant come backs, incomprehensible collapses.  The FM community needs to ask itself - do you want a formula to win every game or do you want to stimulate the magic of big games, where heroes are made and dreams realised and where hearts are broken and you are absolutely gutted and your family can't understand why you've come off the laptop feeling down...

 

I know my choice, keep it real, keep the dreams and the heartache.

 

LLM is better than 'Continue simulator'

 

[bazhsw]

4 minutes ago, twattyatkins said:

This is a great thread! Shame they removed the old LLM forum as I've always played this way. 

In terms of realism I try and play the game as realisticly as possible. I always start as myself, Sunday League with no badges and go out into the FM world unemployed. I only load up the home nations, Ireland and the top leagues from France, Germany, Italy and Spain as my laptop isn't that great.

This year I landed the job at Llanelli Town in the Cymru South around October time and somehow ended up winning the league in my first season. 2021/22 finished 4th in the Welsh Premier and won the Welsh Cup which means we got into the Europa League qualifiers. Currently in 21/22 where we actually got to the 3rd qualifying round after beating Kosovan oppostion in the first round, fluked a penalty win over Dinamo Minsk in the second before being thrashed by Servette in the third round.

December comes round we're 5th in the league, and I'm then offered the job at a struggling Bath City in the Vanarama South. I looked at it and decided to take it as it's a 90 minute drive from my house, rather than over 2 hours to Llanelli who were paying me 230 quid a week compared to the 650 Bath were offering me. Plus I figured it's a slightly better standard of league. 5 games in at City W2 D1 L2 sitting 6 points clear of the relegation zone around half way through the season.

I sometimes think I take the realism thing too far but I like to properly immerse myself in the game like it's actually me doing it. Relieved to read there's like minded people 😂

Why are you giving up the dreams of European football?  You're a hero here!

 

Manager:. Umm Bath are tripling my money in Conference South and I'm falling behind on the mortgage.

 

Top LLM mate

[twattyatkins]

14 minutes ago, bazhsw said:

Why are you giving up the dreams of European football?  You're a hero here!

 

Manager:. Umm Bath are tripling my money in Conference South and I'm falling behind on the mortgage.

 

Top LLM mate

Thanks mate!

Yeah in that scenario it was a no brainer. Just hope in footballing terms I've made the right decision, as long as I keep Bath up there will be a good building process there I think.

But if not, in LLM of course, we live and die by our choices....  

[Brother Ben]

31 minutes ago, twattyatkins said:

This is a great thread! Shame they removed the old LLM forum as I've always played this way. 

In terms of realism I try and play the game as realisticly as possible. I always start as myself, Sunday League with no badges and go out into the FM world unemployed. I only load up the home nations, Ireland and the top leagues from France, Germany, Italy and Spain as my laptop isn't that great.

This year I landed the job at Llanelli Town in the Cymru South around October time and somehow ended up winning the league in my first season. 2021/22 finished 4th in the Welsh Premier and won the Welsh Cup which means we got into the Europa League qualifiers. Currently in 21/22 where we actually got to the 3rd qualifying round after beating Kosovan oppostion in the first round, fluked a penalty win over Dinamo Minsk in the second before being thrashed by Servette in the third round.

December comes round we're 5th in the league, and I'm then offered the job at a struggling Bath City in the Vanarama South. I looked at it and decided to take it as it's a 90 minute drive from my house, rather than over 2 hours to Llanelli who were paying me 230 quid a week compared to the 650 Bath were offering me. Plus I figured it's a slightly better standard of league. 5 games in at City W2 D1 L2 sitting 6 points clear of the relegation zone around half way through the season.

I sometimes think I take the realism thing too far but I like to properly immerse myself in the game like it's actually me doing it. Relieved to read there's like minded people 😂

That's perfect, exactly how I'd play it , good luck with Bath

[Brother Ben]

6 hours ago, bazhsw said:

In short, tipping has broke the series and only LLM can save it

Now this is the kind of radical thinking I can get behind!!

[Junkhead]

7 hours ago, bazhsw said:

In short, tipping has broke the series and only LLM can save it

Joking aside, I don't get why people buy the game year in/year out and just play as Liverpool/Real/Juve/PSG constantly. 

For me FM is an opportunity to experience something different each year. LLM gives me that. 

[twattyatkins]

10 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Joking aside, I don't get why people buy the game year in/year out and just play as Liverpool/Real/Juve/PSG constantly. 

For me FM is an opportunity to experience something different each year. LLM gives me that. 

This totally. Never seen the point of playing with big clubs. I like the journey, making mistakes (had a fair few sackings) and learning from them. When you finally get some success with a team and tactics you've totally made off your own bat, it makes it all the more worthwhile.

 

[Bahamontes]

22 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Joking aside, I don't get why people buy the game year in/year out and just play as Liverpool/Real/Juve/PSG constantly. 

For me FM is an opportunity to experience something different each year. LLM gives me that. 

At the end, it's probaly escapism.  You could even argue that playing as Man United is something like a fallen giant challenge.
Anyway, no matter the level of my team I still follow a couple of the old Llama guidelines, because it is more fun for me. And I'm totally on board with @twattyatkins in terms of own tactics. 

[XaW]

2 hours ago, Junkhead said:

Joking aside, I don't get why people buy the game year in/year out and just play as Liverpool/Real/Juve/PSG constantly. 

For me FM is an opportunity to experience something different each year. LLM gives me that. 

I only play the youth challenge now. I haven't bought a player in a few years! It's even more fun than regular LLM!

[TokyoWanderer]

hace 22 minutos, XaW dijo:

I only play the youth challenge now. I haven't bought a player in a few years! It's even more fun than regular LLM!

I'm pretty good at the tactical side of FM, so I usually overachieve for the level of talent in the teams I take over, but still I never understood how people can succeed with youth challenges starting with crap semi-pro teams from the English sixth tier. Youth players never seem to develop for me, even if I give them playing time before they are ready for the first team. I know a lot of people rely on 'lucky' golden generations of youth players and 'lucky' FA cup draws to get money and improve facilities, but I imagine there are honest people succeeding with the youth challenge as well. 

The only players that develop at my semi-pro clubs are youngsters with full contracts coming on loan, which I assume is because the game still considers they are training full time.

[XaW]

7 minutes ago, TokyoWanderer said:

I'm pretty good at the tactical side of FM, so I usually overachieve for the level of talent in the teams I take over, but still I never understood how people can succeed with youth challenges starting with crap semi-pro teams from the English sixth tier. Youth players never seem to develop for me, even if I give them playing time before they are ready for the first team. I know a lot of people rely on 'lucky' golden generations of youth players and 'lucky' FA cup draws to get money and improve facilities, but I imagine there are honest people succeeding with the youth challenge as well. 

The only players that develop at my semi-pro clubs are youngsters with full contracts coming on loan, which I assume is because the game still considers they are training full time.

Well, it's not easy, and in the thread most fail. Simple as that, and for most of us, it's not about finishing it, but the journey and following how the players develop. Still, one of the guys there finally finished it in 2277 (!) in FM20. And it's all about the small incremental improvements, trying to become slightly better each season. So it's not for someone who want instant success. But for some reason it seems to be very addictive, and it is for me as well. But very many who joins the challenge swear by it when they've tried it!

[TokyoWanderer]

hace 7 horas, XaW dijo:

Well, it's not easy, and in the thread most fail. Simple as that, and for most of us, it's not about finishing it, but the journey and following how the players develop. Still, one of the guys there finally finished it in 2277 (!) in FM20. And it's all about the small incremental improvements, trying to become slightly better each season. So it's not for someone who want instant success. But for some reason it seems to be very addictive, and it is for me as well. But very many who joins the challenge swear by it when they've tried it!

It sounds fun. I never tried it because I don't advance quickly enough through the seasons (rarely get to a third season on any save), but I always wanted to give it a go.

[XaW]

3 hours ago, TokyoWanderer said:

It sounds fun. I never tried it because I don't advance quickly enough through the seasons (rarely get to a third season on any save), but I always wanted to give it a go.

Go ahead and join us, most never finish anyway, but we post updates and encourage each other and give tips and such. There's not many rules, except don't buy players and don't cheat, but other than that it's only things to do with the holiday a season and take over a newly promoted club to the lowest tier things. In the thread, some go very fast and some go very slow, but it's all about having fun and a real challenge.

 

[joe5p]

Hi everyone, 

In terms of realism, I am trying to work to add a significant update to majestic's media add on. My aim is to cover UK and Ireland based media in as much detail as I can. However, the actual thread is within the editors area. If anyone wants to suggest real media, pundits or journalists then please feel free to take a look and contribute. Planning as around 400 additional journalists, pundits and pitch side interview staff. 

 

[Junkhead]

After some opinions, guys;

Having used the team picker at https://www.the9llamas.com/, it looks like I will be taking over a French side with strong  Affiliate links to a top level team in Portugal.  As well as the link, their DOF & entire management & coaching team are Portuguese.

In my mind, for the sake of realism, I have two options;

1- Use the editor to kill the link and remove all Portuguese staff to allow for a realistic backstory for my incoming French manager - the Portuguese era is over and we have a clean slate.;

2- Give my manager a Portuguese nationality & use the link to it's fullest, keeping the staff to allow for a smooth transition.

It's the sort of little thing that triggers my OCD, this - which is why I am interested in what others would do.

I suppose there is a third option to just chill out, but this is highly unlikely 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Junkhead
Just noticed that the Chairman is French but was born in Portugal, which I assume is why the link exists IRL. Think that nudges me massively towards option # 2....

[bazhsw]

I would remind myself that LLM does not equate to 'hard' or a 'challenge'.  The nature of LLM means that it just happens to be often hard and a challenge!

I assume because you are using the picker that the side is in this position out of the box so you haven't 'gamed' anything.

For immersion / fun purposes I think giving yourself a Portuguese nationality could be a fun way to go.

The other thing to consider is the picker is just a way to suggest a team.  If it really niggles you for any reason then select another because the most important thing is you liking your save.  I think I would either stay with the club or pick another team rather than edit - that seems to be a variation of 'making the game harder than it needs to be' which isn't in the llama spirit either in my opinion.

 

[Tyburn]

Yes. I’d go with the change of nationality also.

[JR866Gunner]

On 12/01/2021 at 17:26, Brother Ben said:

This is the outcome of the entire LLM ethos and what makes it so rewarding in a nutshell

you can replace the first sentence with relegations or sackings and the second with promotions or big job offers and it amounts to the same thing.  Things are always more rewarding if you have had to struggle to achieve it, so harder scouting is a natural progression towards extra realism.

Real football is a struggle, a lot of well respected managers never make it out of the lower leagues and don't have any silverware or very little to show for it but that's where the realism lies, and to achieve it you need to temper what you consider success.

I've mentioned this before on this site that In my own save in FM19 I got relegated from the English 6th tier down to the 7th in my second season and spent another decade or so in the division below but thanks to a patient board when I finally got promoted back to the league above I was elated, was one of the the best FM moments for me ever because it took so long and was all my own work.  

Well that's my 10 cents from an old LLaMa anyway 

I recall on CM03/04 or CM4 (my mind is hazy) I took over a relegated Stockport county who were in what is now League 2 and they were about to embark on conference football. They retained only 3 players or very little more and I had to rebuild the squad from the ground up. I got them promoted first season and I was thrilled. Not quite your achievement levels but it was my work that got them back up.

[Brother Ben]

3 minutes ago, JR866Gunner said:

I recall on CM03/04 or CM4 (my mind is hazy) I took over a relegated Stockport county who were in what is now League 2 and they were about to embark on conference football. They retained only 3 players or very little more and I had to rebuild the squad from the ground up. I got them promoted first season and I was thrilled. Not quite your achievement levels but it was my work that got them back up.

The fact that you remember it shows how rewarding it was, I personally doubt anyone can get the same level of satisfaction from using other peoples tactics etc.  It's harder to do these days as there's so much youtube FM content etc that it's impossible to avoid spoilers entirely. 

The way I try approach it is to apply what I see in real football or read in tactical analysis of real football.  Inverting The Pyramid by Jonathan Wilson is an excellent read.

[Brother Ben]

2 hours ago, Junkhead said:

After some opinions, guys;

Having used the team picker at https://www.the9llamas.com/, it looks like I will be taking over a French side with strong  Affiliate links to a top level team in Portugal.  As well as the link, their DOF & entire management & coaching team are Portuguese.

In my mind, for the sake of realism, I have two options;

1- Use the editor to kill the link and remove all Portuguese staff to allow for a realistic backstory for my incoming French manager - the Portuguese era is over and we have a clean slate.;

2- Give my manager a Portuguese nationality & use the link to it's fullest, keeping the staff to allow for a smooth transition.

It's the sort of little thing that triggers my OCD, this - which is why I am interested in what others would do.

I suppose there is a third option to just chill out, but this is highly unlikely 

Yeah I'd go with the second option too, role playing adds an extra dimension to it

I remember when I used to play Championship Manager Italia 94 I'd role play it as Benito Tomato  

I'm looking forward to hearing about the exploits of Rodrigo Junkheadinho  !

 

[Brother Ben]

1 hour ago, bazhsw said:

I would remind myself that LLM does not equate to 'hard' or a 'challenge'.  The nature of LLM means that it just happens to be often hard and a challenge!

I assume because you are using the picker that the side is in this position out of the box so you haven't 'gamed' anything.

For immersion / fun purposes I think giving yourself a Portuguese nationality could be a fun way to go.

The other thing to consider is the picker is just a way to suggest a team.  If it really niggles you for any reason then select another because the most important thing is you liking your save.  I think I would either stay with the club or pick another team rather than edit - that seems to be a variation of 'making the game harder than it needs to be' which isn't in the llama spirit either in my opinion.

 

Yeah the pickers only suggest teams from the lowest leagues available out of the box.

I'm assuming what Junkhead means by clean slate is to go against the club culture and attempt to ride out the wrath of the chairman.

You're right about the immersion / fun aspect of it, if it were me i'd be writing out a personal history of my new Portuguese manager to flesh him out but then i'm probably a bit crazy like that!