known issue Youth Intake Broken Just Like Beta

[Junkhead]

Right, I reckon I've got something here.

Running my test until 2027, I Added myself as manager of Cove Rangers in March 2020 & holidayed.  On intake day, I resigned.  Here was my intake - 16 players.

I then resigned & added the previous manager using the IGE & continued for 1 month.  Cove singed NONE of the players from the intake & all are now free agents.  Cove have only 4 youth players.  

 

Save just after I had resigned available, full intake visible in Cove reserves.

Save also available from the day after the trial contracts ended with all players released.

 

Hope this helps, I am done testing now I think.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Junkhead

[TokyoWanderer]

hace 4 minutos, Leonbra dijo:

I play many playable Leauges! 

 

Is the youth Bug in the playable Leauges too? 

I would advise you to play because the game is really fun. If you don't have an OCD abour hiper-realism in computer games, I'd bet you will enjoy it.

I don't mean to criticize everyone else here, in fact I think Daveincid and Junkhead are heroes for contributing so much, but missing out on the game over grey players in youth teams seems like a waste of a great FM edition in every other respect.

[Junkhead]

2 minutes ago, TokyoWanderer said:

I would advise you to play because the game is really fun. If you don't have an OCD abour hiper-realism in computer games, I'd bet you will enjoy it.

I don't mean to criticize everyone else here, in fact I think Daveincid and Junkhead are heroes for contributing so much, but missing out on the game over grey players in youth teams seems like a waste of a great FM edition in every other respect.

Oh, I am playing as well - I just want this sorting lol

[TokyoWanderer]

hace 2 minutos, Junkhead dijo:

Right, I reckon I've got something here.

Running my test until 2027, I Added myself as manager of Cove Rangers in March 2020 & holidayed.  On intake day, I resigned.  Here was my intake - 16 players.

I then resigned & added the previous manager using the IGE & continued for 1 month.  Cove singed NONE of the players from the intake & all are now free agents.  Cove have only 4 youth players.  

Saves available if required, gonna stop testing now.

So it seems that in 21.2 enough players are generated, but not enough get signed then. It makes sense for lower league teams like Cove Rangers (those teams don't have youth teams full of players under contract), not so much for the bigger ones.

[TokyoWanderer]

Justo ahora, Junkhead dijo:

Oh, I am playing as well - I just want this sorting lol

I know! But I'm seeing too many people holding off from playing because of this, which is a shame.

[Bigpole]

fm2020 

2019 starting database 371,960k players 

2045 - 330k players

 

fm2021

2020 starting database 395k players

2025 - 330k players

 

Both databases are with 1 league playable only with all players loaded (custom database), fm21 test is still running, so I'll upload more results later.

[Junkhead]

6 minutes ago, Bigpole said:

fm2020 

2019 starting database 371,960k players 

2045 - 330k players

 

fm2021

2020 starting database 395k players

2025 - 330k players

 

Both databases are with 1 league playable only with all players loaded (custom database), fm21 test is still running, so I'll upload more results later.

Out of interest, are you able to compare the amount of players in u18 squads on both versions?  I don't have FM20 installed anymore so cannot compare

 

[Bigpole]

9 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Out of interest, are you able to compare the amount of players in u18 squads on both versions?  I don't have FM20 installed anymore so cannot compare

 

easily, but I'll simulate till 2045 to have a fair comparison.

[gsdax24]

I got curious about older FMs, so I reinstalled FM18 and opened a save. The year is 2103. The database has the big 5 leagues playable (plus their respective second divisions) and some minor leagues (nothing on view-only). I can't say how many players there were at the start, but I can fairly certainly say that the database was Big and with no custom options.

In 2103 there are 40430 players.

In 2019, 3538 newgens were generated. In 2102, 3288 newgens were generated.

I viewed some mid-table clubs youth teams, and I found that there are some greyed out players. It depends on the club really, Serie A clubs have almost no greyed out players, LaLiga teams have almost no "real" players. English clubs are more or less in the middle.

Edited December 19, 2020 by gsdax24

[Junkhead]

13 minutes ago, gsdax24 said:

I got curious about older FMs, so I reinstalled FM18 and opened a save. The year is 2103. The database has the big 5 leagues playable (plus their respective second divisions) and some minor leagues (nothing on view-only). I can't say how many players there were at the start, but I can fairly certainly say that the database was Big and with no custom options.

In 2103 there are 40430 players.

In 2019, 3538 regens were generated. In 2102, 3288 newgens were generated.

I viewed some mid-table clubs youth teams, and I found that there are some greyed out players. It depends on the club really, Serie A clubs have almost no greyed out players, LaLiga teams have almost no "real" players. English clubs are more or less in the middle.

This is interesting - the numbers look similar to some of the numbers I saw in my test, however I can't imagine why Cove didn't sign any of those players.  Will be interested to see what SI's take is.

[Captain Krakatoa]

I'm not an expert in game coding by any means,

But this issue looks so fundamental. If they do find a solution, guess it'd be a groundbreaking method that they could use for next years edition

[1891]

After looking through and comparing between my last save in FM20 I'm starting to think that this issue actually was present already in FM20, but that it got worse this year so that we started to notice it much more.

I've made a list of some random countries and their total number of newgens per season as per the Country -> Transfers -> Youth tab. Both saves was started in Sweden, which runs along the calender years.
Both games have had a similar set-up. They use a custom editor files where I've change the youth rating for most countries outside Europe and South America so that they match similar sized nations in those regions.
Both games use a similar set-up of active and view-only leagues, as well as custom database settings to load all players outside of Europe and South America. Total number of players from the start in both versions is around 200k.
It's still consistently lower intakes in FM21, but not by that much in non-active leagues. The issues actually now looks more severe in active leagues.
Both active, view-only and inactive nations need more players to uphold the player count, but active leagues needs the strongest boost.
I quickly looked through the youth teams of active clubs in England in both versions and from what I could see most teams had more players there in FM21 than in FM20.

"Country Name" + 19/20 means that the first number is FM20 in year 2019 and the second number is FM21 in year 2020. Which means the first season (and only for some countries)
"Country Name" + 20/21 means that the first number is FM20 in year 2020 and the second number is FM21 in year 2021. Which means the second season.
"Country Name" + 21/22 means that the first number is FM20 in year 2021 and the second number is FM21 in year 2022. Which means the third season.

Or to make it easier: First number is FM20, second number is FM21 on the same chronological in-game year.

 

AFRICA

Chad 20/21: 1 - 4
Chad 21/22: 6 - 4

Etiopien 20/21: 20 - 3
Etiopien 21/22: 63 - 19

Eritrea 20/21: 1 - 0
Eritrea 21/22: 1 - 0

Ghana 19/20: 263 - 223
Ghana 20/21: 50 - 51
Ghana 21/22: 67 - 

Kenya 20/21: 28 - 23
Kenya 21/22: 59 - 31

Madagascar 19/20: 31 - 10
Madagascar 20/21: 6 - 5
Madagascar 21/22: 17 - 

Mocambique 19/20: 64 - 74
Mocambique 20/21: 129 - 103
Mocambique 21/22: 51 - 

Somalia 20/21: 0 - 0
Somalia 20/21: 0 - 0


ASIA

Bangladesh 19/20: 7 - 22
Bangladesh 20/21: 18 - 41
Bangladesh 21/22: 13 - 

Cambodia 19/20: 124 - 123
Cambodia 20/21: 107 - 95
Cambodia 21/22: 29 - 

Iran 20/21: 475 - 159
Iran 21/22: 644 - 245

Iraq 20/21: 92 - 44
Iraq 21/22: 125 - 72

Japan 19/20: 875 - 820
Japan 20/21: 92 - 95
Japan 21/22: 38 - 

Myanmar 19/20: 227 - 242
Myanmar 20/21: 76 - 95
Myanmar 21/22: 83 - 

Philippines 19/20: 27 - 21
Philippines 20/21: 109 - 104
Philippines 21/22: 109

Thailand 19/20: 1251 - *
Thailand 20/21: 763 - 713
Thailand 21/22: 564 - 878

Vietnam 19/20: 207 - 221
Vietnam 20/21: 227 - 215
Vietnam 21/22: 236 - 


NORTH AMERICA

Cuba 19/20: 11 - 11
Cuba 20/21: 5 - 2
Cuba 21/22: 16 - 

Dominican Republic 19/20: 40 - 47
Dominican Republic 20/21: 20 - 7
Dominican Republic 21/22: 22 - 

El Salvador 20/21: 92 - 61
El Salvador 21/22: 82 - 26

Guatemala 20/21: 98 - 53
Guatemala 21/22: 143 - 32

Haiti 19/20: 36 - 61
Haiti 20/21: 36 - 27
Haiti 21/22: 53 - 


ACTIVE LEAGUES

England 20/21: 794 - 1037
England 21/22: 591 - 551
- Level 1-4 as active in both versions
- Level 5-6 as view-only in FM21

Germany 20/21: 1038 - 858
Germany 21/22: 773 - 424
- Level 1-3 as active in both versions

Italy 20/21: 1056 - 582
Italy 21/22: 417 - 325
- Level 1-2 as active in both versions
- Level 3 as view only in FM21

Sweden 19/20: 2756 - 2608
Sweden 20/21: 848 - 907
Sweden 21/22: 603 - 
- Level 1-4 as active in both versions
- Active human player in Premier Division

USA 19/20: 2926 - 2825
USA 20/21: 496 - 700
USA 21/22: 620 - 
- Level 1 as active in both versions
- Appears to change date for when newgens are generated after season one in FM21
- The first year is the initial intake when game is generated only
- 700 includes two times 350, which is a mixture of all seasons

VIEW-ONLY

China 19/20: 1087 - 1505
China 20/21: 741 - 1174
China 21/22: 1018 - 

Finland 19/20: 77 - 67
Finland 20/21: 0 - 4
Finland 21/22: 8 - 

Mexico 20/21: 538 - 575
Mexico 21/22: 168 - 40

 

[Platinum]

1 hour ago, Junkhead said:

Right, I reckon I've got something here.

Running my test until 2027, I Added myself as manager of Cove Rangers in March 2020 & holidayed.  On intake day, I resigned.  Here was my intake - 16 players.

I then resigned & added the previous manager using the IGE & continued for 1 month.  Cove singed NONE of the players from the intake & all are now free agents.  Cove have only 4 youth players.  

 

Save just after I had resigned available, full intake visible in Cove reserves.

Save also available from the day after the trial contracts ended with all players released.

 

Hope this helps, I am done testing now I think.

This looks to be the issue with playable leagues and why teams have hardly any players in youth squads. It's not a newgen creation issue but a AI transfer decision making issue or player contract demands issue.

This is separate to the advanced db option.

Edited December 19, 2020 by francis#17

[TokyoWanderer]

hace 2 minutos, francis#17 dijo:

This looks to be the issue with playable leagues and why teams have hardly any players in youth squads. It's not a newgen creation issue but a AI transfer decision making issue or player contract demands issue.

This is separate to the advanced db option.

I bet the contract demand issue plays a big role. 

Anyone care to check what contracts the newgen youth players have?  As I mentioned, in my save I see that any newgen worth anything doesn't settle for a youth contract. 

[SCCP1910]

Holy ****, reading this thread is quite depressing.


It's basically saying "if you don't have a monster PC and can't run a lot of playable leagues, but still want a decent number of players in your DB, then go **** yourself"


Guess FM20 isn't so bad after all...

[Andrew James]

Hi all, just wanted to clarify a couple of points of discussion on this thread, and first to thank you for all the info provided. As you can imagine we're also very frustrated with these ongoing issues and they remain a priority. 

As a couple of earlier posts have pointed out, virtual (greyed out) players appearing in lots of AI youth teams is something that's been present in previous versions of FM, and not necessarily due to a lack of players in a youth intake, as a variety of things could lead to players being prematurely promoted to a higher squad, which take priority. We are always trying balance these numbers as much as possible to reduce dependence on virtual players, but I definitely agree that in FM21 the balance is not right yet. 

Whilst 5-8 players can be considered the average amount of players per intake for most AI clubs in playable leagues, teams in the English Premier League should always be up at at least 7/8 and sometimes higher. We are aware of some examples where this number dips later into saves and they are still under review with our dev team. 

Unfortunately AI teams do not undergo the same contract offer decision process for youth candidates as human teams, so resolving this is probably not as simple as lowering player demands. 

The intake calculations consider the same factors every season - but the longer a save runs, the more "unique" the factors in each save will be, meaning the calculations become more prone to variance, and any issues become harder to fix. 

With regard to some issues in South America and Asia I've mentioned in previous comments, these areas seem to be more prone to player count drop because lots of South American clubs have massive reserve and youth squads at game start, which the game is unable to sustain, and in Asia we think there's an issue with some free transfer rules which is causing a high number of retirements that the youth intakes can't keep up with. 

[Junkhead]

9 minutes ago, Andrew James said:

Unfortunately AI teams do not undergo the same contract offer decision process for youth candidates as human teams, so resolving this is probably not as simple as lowering player demands. 

Understood - thanks for being so transparent on this.  For clarity though, are you in agreement that Cove Rangers SHOULD be signing some of those players in the example I posted (by that I mean they realistically should, rather than they should in the game, if that makes sense)?

[Platinum]

19 minutes ago, Andrew James said:

Hi all, just wanted to clarify a couple of points of discussion on this thread, and first to thank you for all the info provided. As you can imagine we're also very frustrated with these ongoing issues and they remain a priority. 

As a couple of earlier posts have pointed out, virtual (greyed out) players appearing in lots of AI youth teams is something that's been present in previous versions of FM, and not necessarily due to a lack of players in a youth intake, as a variety of things could lead to players being prematurely promoted to a higher squad, which take priority. We are always trying balance these numbers as much as possible to reduce dependence on virtual players, but I definitely agree that in FM21 the balance is not right yet. 

Whilst 5-8 players can be considered the average amount of players per intake for most AI clubs in playable leagues, teams in the English Premier League should always be up at at least 7/8 and sometimes higher. We are aware of some examples where this number dips later into saves and they are still under review with our dev team. 

Unfortunately AI teams do not undergo the same contract offer decision process for youth candidates as human teams, so resolving this is probably not as simple as lowering player demands. 

The intake calculations consider the same factors every season - but the longer a save runs, the more "unique" the factors in each save will be, meaning the calculations become more prone to variance, and any issues become harder to fix. 

With regard to some issues in South America and Asia I've mentioned in previous comments, these areas seem to be more prone to player count drop because lots of South American clubs have massive reserve and youth squads at game start, which the game is unable to sustain, and in Asia we think there's an issue with some free transfer rules which is causing a high number of retirements that the youth intakes can't keep up with. 

Thanks for getting back to us on this during a weekend

[jib]

2 hours ago, Bogdy26 said:

Why not ? I mean even if there are low youth intake players the first team of any top division club would still be transfering players from all around the world, right ? So its not like you are going to face a team full of grey players in champions league in 2030 or 2040. 

On the other hand if you wanna play concentrating more (or only) on youth intake then yes. So it really depends of how you wanna play it i would say. Wouldn'd you agree ? 

You're completely right, I let how I like to play the game influence my answer and after reading some other posts in this thread, some people are enjoying the game. So I guess people have to just decide for themselves whether it affects their game too much or not. Plenty of people are playing and enjoying

[1891]

52 minutes ago, Andrew James said:

Hi all, just wanted to clarify a couple of points of discussion on this thread, and first to thank you for all the info provided. As you can imagine we're also very frustrated with these ongoing issues and they remain a priority. 

As a couple of earlier posts have pointed out, virtual (greyed out) players appearing in lots of AI youth teams is something that's been present in previous versions of FM, and not necessarily due to a lack of players in a youth intake, as a variety of things could lead to players being prematurely promoted to a higher squad, which take priority. We are always trying balance these numbers as much as possible to reduce dependence on virtual players, but I definitely agree that in FM21 the balance is not right yet. 

Whilst 5-8 players can be considered the average amount of players per intake for most AI clubs in playable leagues, teams in the English Premier League should always be up at at least 7/8 and sometimes higher. We are aware of some examples where this number dips later into saves and they are still under review with our dev team. 

Unfortunately AI teams do not undergo the same contract offer decision process for youth candidates as human teams, so resolving this is probably not as simple as lowering player demands. 

The intake calculations consider the same factors every season - but the longer a save runs, the more "unique" the factors in each save will be, meaning the calculations become more prone to variance, and any issues become harder to fix. 

With regard to some issues in South America and Asia I've mentioned in previous comments, these areas seem to be more prone to player count drop because lots of South American clubs have massive reserve and youth squads at game start, which the game is unable to sustain, and in Asia we think there's an issue with some free transfer rules which is causing a high number of retirements that the youth intakes can't keep up with. 

Is the number of players generated from different countries decided by how many players there's currently in the database or is it other factors that play a role?

[Pattric_b]

Are we seeing major nations that weren’t loaded generating new gens? Has anyone tested that yet?

[1891]

31 minutes ago, Pattric_b said:

Are we seeing major nations that weren’t loaded generating new gens? Has anyone tested that yet?

From what I could see when I compared FM20 and FM21 then all nations generate too few newgens. After the newest patch it's a little bit more severe for active leagues, but still about 10-20% too few newgens even for the least affected nations.

[Platinum]

I just opened up FM19 and it reiterates what others and Andrew James have said. There are virtual players in many teams youth squads, I just hadnt realised it before. 

Teams that got promoted to a playable league from an unplayable league are the most affected as they have to wait until the next youth intake to get non virtual players for their youth squad. I'd recommend loading a few leagues below the leagues you care about  eg if you only care about the Prem load at least the Championship but ideally to League Two so that you dont have the issue of teams that got promoted to the prem having virtual player filled youth squads.

My current thinking is it playable as it is similar to previous years if you dont play with advanced db options.  But I would say loading a few leagues below the leagues you care about is necessary.

Edited December 19, 2020 by francis#17

[outofroutine]

Quote

So the average high CA concerns me much more.  I was able to lower that effect in FM20 with a custom increase of injuries-file aswell as a custom lower-youth ranking-file.

@Daveincid I suffer the very same in FM19; too many good/high-class players in the game after 10 years (so I guess the game logic didn't change since then..) - but I did not know that things such as youth-ratings and injuries are customizable - can you pls elaborate how you do it / share links if they are public?

Edited December 19, 2020 by outofroutine

[Novem9]

3 часа назад, Andrew James сказал:

Hi all, just wanted to clarify a couple of points of discussion on this thread, and first to thank you for all the info provided. As you can imagine we're also very frustrated with these ongoing issues and they remain a priority. 

As a couple of earlier posts have pointed out, virtual (greyed out) players appearing in lots of AI youth teams is something that's been present in previous versions of FM, and not necessarily due to a lack of players in a youth intake, as a variety of things could lead to players being prematurely promoted to a higher squad, which take priority. We are always trying balance these numbers as much as possible to reduce dependence on virtual players, but I definitely agree that in FM21 the balance is not right yet. 

Whilst 5-8 players can be considered the average amount of players per intake for most AI clubs in playable leagues, teams in the English Premier League should always be up at at least 7/8 and sometimes higher. We are aware of some examples where this number dips later into saves and they are still under review with our dev team. 

Unfortunately AI teams do not undergo the same contract offer decision process for youth candidates as human teams, so resolving this is probably not as simple as lowering player demands. 

The intake calculations consider the same factors every season - but the longer a save runs, the more "unique" the factors in each save will be, meaning the calculations become more prone to variance, and any issues become harder to fix. 

With regard to some issues in South America and Asia I've mentioned in previous comments, these areas seem to be more prone to player count drop because lots of South American clubs have massive reserve and youth squads at game start, which the game is unable to sustain, and in Asia we think there's an issue with some free transfer rules which is causing a high number of retirements that the youth intakes can't keep up with. 

Hi Andrew!

Sad to know about this issue, it was a great work in FM20 and I played few long saves which I found very balanced about newgens.
I understood correctly it will be hotfix when solution will be found?

Cheers

[Daveincid]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb outofroutine:

@Daveincid I suffer the very same in FM19; too many good/high-class players in the game after 10 years (so I guess the game logic didn't change since then..) - but I did not know that things such as youth-ratings and injuries are customizable - can you pls elaborate how you do it / share links if they are public?

you will find my files and all the others in here

https://community.sigames.com/forum/834-editors-hideaway-download-forum-fm21/

[Pattric_b]

2 hours ago, 1891 said:

From what I could see when I compared FM20 and FM21 then all nations generate too few newgens. After the newest patch it's a little bit more severe for active leagues, but still about 10-20% too few newgens even for the least affected nations.

I was having an issue that nations I didn’t load when I started a new save didn’t generate any new gens at all. USA, Serbia, Croatia, Poland to name a few. 

[1891]

3 hours ago, Pattric_b said:

I was having an issue that nations I didn’t load when I started a new save didn’t generate any new gens at all. USA, Serbia, Croatia, Poland to name a few. 

You're right. Just went back and looked in my save. Mid-level countries in Europe produce way too few newgens in view-only mode. Some of them had only about ten newgens, when there should be 100+.

[Candy Cadet]

8 hours ago, 1891 said:

After looking through and comparing between my last save in FM20 I'm starting to think that this issue actually was present already in FM20, but that it got worse this year so that we started to notice it much more.

It was definitely occurring in FM20. On the two 20+ seasons I was playing, the big teams in Europe just ended up recycling players between each other as there were not enough world class youths being created. The transfer prices became stupid and basically all the teams were massively in debt due to spiraling wage costs and hanging onto older, useless players. As soon as I stock piled a bunch of good youths the game was basically broken as no other team got close in terms of player skill and as I didn't need to spend, ended up hitting the 'money cap' and the club was just stock piling funds into investments.

[TokyoWanderer]

hace 4 horas, outofroutine dijo:

@Daveincid I suffer the very same in FM19; too many good/high-class players in the game after 10 years 

 

hace 12 minutos, Candy Cadet dijo:

It was definitely occurring in FM20. On the two 20+ seasons I was playing, the big teams in Europe just ended up recycling players between each other as there were not enough world class youths being created. 

Well, which is it then? 

[Xavier Lukhas]

I wonder how this issue would develop if there were nothing but newgens in a save game. It's not impossible to do: you "only" need to run an empty database with at least all players deleted, and maybe all players and staff. It's an unrealistic way of playing the game, but it's the most brutal way I can think of to see if FM21 is actually able to sustain its player count properly. Running an empty database will obviously result in having less players at the start of the game, but what is interesting is not necessarily how many players there are in-game, but how the number evolves though the seasons. At the very least, this is how I would test that problem: in the most brutal, balls-to-the-wall manner.

[Daveincid]

Hi @Andrew James

I made a comparison from FM20 to FM21 simulated until 2029. One league playable, all others view-only.

The problem is still huge, especially with unloaded leagues and players added via the advanced db.  FM20 was mostly stable, only premier league had a loss of active players in their league went down from 1376 to  871 (no problem due they have so many blown squads with loans). All other leagues are working quite good. Unloaded Nations, even smaller ones are working well. 

FM21 is still struggling extremely. Some numbers from players with nationality from unloaded/view-only nations:(start vs 2029) England 2563/1912, Switzerland 627/493 Germany 1784/1096, Egypt 337/150, Iran 650/381 Bolivia 499/312, Luxembourg 306/260, Armenia 185/136. 

USA playable: 4319/7351 so this number increased incredibly, same happend in FM20 too.

The save was from the end of November, so before the update, but a quick look to a save after the update looks still the same for this specific scenario.

I really hope that the problem from decreasing player-counts with extra players added to view-only or unloaded leagues is in your focus too. Because this issue wasn't the case in FM20. Being forced to load all Nations including custom leagues from creators playable, to have players in the future isn't really a option for most gamers I think.  But for the game being enjoyable for a longterm-save it is, for me personal, a must-have.

 

I know it is a very stressful time for most people, especially what I recently heard what's going on in London. Most important is still everyone's health, supporting each other and don't focus on problems all the time. I wish all of you guys from SI, and everyone in the forum merry christmas, a lot of optimism and good moments with your family. I am sure, we will get through this bull*** together, no matter of borders, race, religion or whatever. 

 

Cheers

Daveincid

 

[ratio1618]

13 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Hi @Andrew James

I made a comparison from FM20 to FM21 simulated until 2029. One league playable, all others view-only.

The problem is still huge, especially with unloaded leagues and players added via the advanced db.  FM20 was mostly stable, only premier league had a loss of active players in their league went down from 1376 to  871 (no problem due they have so many blown squads with loans). All other leagues are working quite good. Unloaded Nations, even smaller ones are working well. 

FM21 is still struggling extremely. Some numbers from players with nationality from unloaded/view-only nations:(start vs 2029) England 2563/1912, Switzerland 627/493 Germany 1784/1096, Egypt 337/150, Iran 650/381 Bolivia 499/312, Luxembourg 306/260, Armenia 185/136. 

USA playable: 4319/7351 so this number increased incredibly, same happend in FM20 too.

The save was from the end of November, so before the update, but a quick look to a save after the update looks still the same for this specific scenario.

I really hope that the problem from decreasing player-counts with extra players added to view-only or unloaded leagues is in your focus too. Because this issue wasn't the case in FM20. Being forced to load all Nations including custom leagues from creators playable, to have players in the future isn't really a option for most gamers I think.  But for the game being enjoyable for a longterm-save it is, for me personal, a must-have.

 

I know it is a very stressful time for most people, especially what I recently heard what's going on in London. Most important is still everyone's health, supporting each other and don't focus on problems all the time. I wish all of you guys from SI, and everyone in the forum merry christmas, a lot of optimism and good moments with your family. I am sure, we will get through this bull*** together, no matter of borders, race, religion or whatever. 

 

Cheers

Daveincid

 

Its weird as **** that whole USA thing. They have some of the most hardcoded rules in the game and somehow they manage to double player count. Also they seem to be the nation that buyd slot of players even when they are not loaded. When i run my New Zealand editor file for testing most of the transfers are heading to the USA

It would be interesting to check Australias numbers as they also have alot of weird hardcoded stuff in-game.

[Candy Cadet]

9 hours ago, TokyoWanderer said:

 

Well, which is it then? 

I never noticed it as a problem in FM19 and there were definitely more players floating around from more obscure countries

[Daveincid]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Candy Cadet:

I never noticed it as a problem in FM19 and there were definitely more players floating around from more obscure countries

That there are less worldclass players in the future is against all my testing-results I have made so far. But hey, maybe there are specific saves where this happends.

I have arround 85 test-saves in FM21 and 68 for FM20 for default. I never noticed less high PA as at the beginning

[1891]

The problem for both of you are probably that there's less mid-level players available due to the issues with creating newgens. This then makes the world class newgens that do get generated more prominent and expensive since there's too few players in the segment below world class.

[Candy Cadet]

11 minutes ago, 1891 said:

This then makes the world class newgens that do get generated more prominent and expensive since there's too few players in the segment below world class.

I wouldn't assume an online save makes any difference but what my friend and I were finding is that the original startup players that had world class PA were being kept well into their late 30's on massive wages and the squads had no players to replace them with. The big clubs certainly weren't chasing the best youth players around and were very much just buying middle of the road players in their mid 20's to keep themselves going. Teams were 200-300M in debt at the end of each season. It certainly wasn't enjoyable.

 

Another thing we noticed that the good youth players were also batched by country each season with the odd other country thrown in. That could be linked to the leagues we had playable though.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Candy Cadet
Additional information

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb 1891:

The problem for both of you are probably that there's less mid-level players available due to the issues with creating newgens. This then makes the world class newgens that do get generated more prominent and expensive since there's too few players in the segment below world class.

I have tested midrange too, higher PA in generall for 120-140, as the same as 140-160 and higher. Due players develop fast in FM, the midrange will be stronger too. 

The bug makes it difficult to get a 100% certainity yes, but there are enough players to say that there is a overall improvement of players CA at all levels. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Daveincid said:

Hi @Andrew James

I made a comparison from FM20 to FM21 simulated until 2029. One league playable, all others view-only.

The problem is still huge, especially with unloaded leagues and players added via the advanced db.  FM20 was mostly stable, only premier league had a loss of active players in their league went down from 1376 to  871 (no problem due they have so many blown squads with loans). All other leagues are working quite good. Unloaded Nations, even smaller ones are working well. 

FM21 is still struggling extremely. Some numbers from players with nationality from unloaded/view-only nations:(start vs 2029) England 2563/1912, Switzerland 627/493 Germany 1784/1096, Egypt 337/150, Iran 650/381 Bolivia 499/312, Luxembourg 306/260, Armenia 185/136. 

USA playable: 4319/7351 so this number increased incredibly, same happend in FM20 too.

The save was from the end of November, so before the update, but a quick look to a save after the update looks still the same for this specific scenario.

I really hope that the problem from decreasing player-counts with extra players added to view-only or unloaded leagues is in your focus too. Because this issue wasn't the case in FM20. Being forced to load all Nations including custom leagues from creators playable, to have players in the future isn't really a option for most gamers I think.  But for the game being enjoyable for a longterm-save it is, for me personal, a must-have.

 

I know it is a very stressful time for most people, especially what I recently heard what's going on in London. Most important is still everyone's health, supporting each other and don't focus on problems all the time. I wish all of you guys from SI, and everyone in the forum merry christmas, a lot of optimism and good moments with your family. I am sure, we will get through this bull*** together, no matter of borders, race, religion or whatever. 

 

Cheers

Daveincid

 

After reading this thread, would you agree with my conclusion: let's say I start a save with as many leagues as I can as playable and no custom database (just a large database), this bug should not affect those playable leagues too much, right ? 

And secondly, I would like to thank you and the other people on this thread for your involvement in the community and willingness to help SI improve/fix the game. Wish you, and your family, a Merry Christmas !

[Daveincid]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Bogdy26:

After reading this thread, would you agree with my conclusion: let's say I start a save with as many leagues as I can as playable and no custom database (just a large database), this bug should not affect those playable leagues too much, right ? 

And secondly, I would like to thank you and the other people on this thread for your involvement in the community and willingness to help SI improve/fix the game. Wish you, and your family, a Merry Christmas !

I can't say yes or no, because I almost only test with the advanced db. Currently testing the effect with all leagues loaded and advanced db (everything ticked on except "active in Nation" and "with nationality". At the start I had 240k players, after a year it moved up to 242k players, but now, 16. march 23 there are currently 221k players. I haven't looked yet where the loss is, it really takes so much time.

 

Thank you! you too:)

Edited December 20, 2020 by Daveincid

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

I can't say yes or no, because I almost only test with the advanced db. Currently testing the effect with all leagues loaded and advanced db (everything ticked on except "active in Nation" and "with nationality". At the start I had 240k players, after a year it moved up to 242k players, but now, 16. march 23 there are currently 221k players. I haven't looked yet where the loss is, it really takes so much time.

 

Thank you! you too:)

Yes, I know it takes a lot of time, which is why I really appreciate the work you are putting into this. 

My personal opinion on this would be that the game is definitely playable, at least the way I play it. Just started a long-term save: No badges, Sunday League Experience with a large database and 20 nations loaded. By the time this bug would start affecting the save I would have already be in a major league fighting for a place in Champions League. And, as I said on another thread, it's not like the major clubs will not be transferring players from all around the world and you will face a team full of grey players in 2040. It's definitely a major bug that should be addressed rather sooner than later but I, personally, wouldn't consider it a game breaking one. 

 

[Daveincid]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Bogdy26:

My personal opinion on this would be that the game is definitely playable

Of course it is! Just not for everyone's playing-style. And as far as I know SI said it's savegame-compatible

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Bogdy26:

By the time this bug would start affecting the save I would have already be in a major league fighting for a place in Champions League.

Definetly, but it's getting easier because the AI-Teams are struggling, so my personal feeling of "I really achieved something" isn't that strong than in earlier versions.

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Bogdy26:

as I said on another thread, it's not like the major clubs will not be transferring players from all around the world and you will face a team full of grey players in 2040

Not totally greyed out,but when a major club like PSV Eindhoven in year 2038 only have 13 players left, the whole database decreased from 100k to 50k, even it's view-only, it just takes the fun away for me

Edited December 20, 2020 by Daveincid

[1891]

I wrote earlier that active leagues looked to be the worst when comparing FM20 and FM21. But after looking again it looks like view-only is even worse.

View-only leagues need a better spread of newgens, as well as a lot more. As of now the only newgens that get generated in most view-only nations are  a full intake (4-8 players) in the top two teams. No other teams ever produces any newgens. In FM20 there were a lot more newgens in total from most view-only leagues, as well as a better spread so that not all talens came from the same two clubs.

[Guest]

 

44 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Definetly, but it's getting easier because the AI-Teams are struggling, so my personal feeling of "I really achieved something" isn't that strong than in earlier versions.

Not totally greyed out,but when a major club like PSV Eindhoven in year 2038 only have 13 players left, the whole database decreased from 100k to 50k, even it's view-only, it just takes the fun away for me

  If that would be the case then I totally agree with you. I just hope it won't be that drastic and all the clubs playing in the main stages of Champions Leagues and Europa League will always have a healthy squad of 22 players. (accomplished mostly by transfers, not youth intake). And as you said, SI already said that the fix/fixes for this bug are save game compatible, so hopefully we will have a fix by the time the bug would start to seriously impact the save.

 

[blejdek]

2 minutes ago, Bogdy26 said:

 

  If that would be the case then I totally agree with you. I just hope it won't be that drastic and all the clubs playing in the main stages of Champions Leagues and Europa League will always have a healthy squad of 22 players. (accomplished mostly by transfers, not youth intake). And as you said, SI already said that the fix/fixes for this bug are save game compatible, so hopefully we will have a fix by the time the bug would start to seriously impact the save.

 

I dont think it matters very much at all if its save game compatible or not. From the side i'm watching at it, lets say you are in year 2030 or even 2040, this means you missed 10 to 20 years of young players, because they simply werent being generated. Imagine how much players would normally come out in 20 years, over millions, some bad, some good, some world class and everything in between. Ofcourse if fix ever comes out, it would probably work fine from that point on. but still, to that moment millions of players lost every season because simply the game is not producing them, is a huge problem and I dont think it would help me personally, if its save game compatible or not. Just my take on it.

Happy holidays to everyone despite everything !

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb blejdek:

I dont think it matters very much at all if its save game compatible or not. From the side i'm watching at it, lets say you are in year 2030 or even 2040, this means you missed 10 to 20 years of young players, because they simply werent being generated. Imagine how much players would normally come out in 20 years, over millions, some bad, some good, some world class and everything in between. Ofcourse if fix ever comes out, it would probably work fine from that point on. but still, to that moment millions of players lost every season because simply the game is not producing them, is a huge problem and I dont think it would help me personally, if its save game compatible or not. Just my take on it.

Happy holidays to everyone despite everything !

100% agree

[outofroutine]

12 hours ago, TokyoWanderer said:

 

Well, which is it then? 

Could very well be the game setup; that makes the difference eg. I usually have 5 top leagues (+ all English lower leagues)  as playable, and nothing else.

What makes me suprise is that the community/enthusiasts are the ones doing such investigation/detailed analysis work to understand the youth behaviour / the impact of the game version changes on long-term, but not SI.. I guess this is because LLM/long-term game players are never the main target/audience for them.

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by outofroutine

[Daveincid]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb outofroutine:

What makes me suprise is that the community/enthusiasts are the ones doing such investigation/detailed analysis work to understand the youth behaviour / the impact of the game version changes on long-term, but not SI

Because they created an addictive game, so people like me don't care about the incredible amount of time spending to it 

But we get a awesome game back with suggestions from the community, this is something very kind and they have my respect for that!

Edit: And yeah, SI is working on it, so we are just helping them.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Daveincid
edit

[Platinum]

3 hours ago, Bogdy26 said:

After reading this thread, would you agree with my conclusion: let's say I start a save with as many leagues as I can as playable and no custom database (just a large database), this bug should not affect those playable leagues too much, right ? 

And secondly, I would like to thank you and the other people on this thread for your involvement in the community and willingness to help SI improve/fix the game. Wish you, and your family, a Merry Christmas !

 I did one test and a couple others did tests with no advanced db options and the database  seemed to be stable and actually increased in some cases.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, blejdek said:

I dont think it matters very much at all if its save game compatible or not. From the side i'm watching at it, lets say you are in year 2030 or even 2040, this means you missed 10 to 20 years of young players, because they simply werent being generated. Imagine how much players would normally come out in 20 years, over millions, some bad, some good, some world class and everything in between. Ofcourse if fix ever comes out, it would probably work fine from that point on. but still, to that moment millions of players lost every season because simply the game is not producing them, is a huge problem and I dont think it would help me personally, if its save game compatible or not. Just my take on it.

Happy holidays to everyone despite everything !

That is one perspective on it, but I don't really agree with it. And that is simply because I don't plan on reaching 2030 by the time the fix comes out. Historically speaking I haven't played more than 10-12 seasons per FM edition for the past 2 or 3 FM editions, I just don't have the time for it. So for me it really does matter if the fix is save game compatible or not. But that is for me personally.

And for the second part, about the missing young players,  I agree with you but not fully, because if you reach 2030 or 2040 you don't lose 10 to 20 years of young players you lose a large percentage of those players, because some players are still being generated, let's say you lose 50% percent. If in the other 50% that are being generated there is enough quality to sustain the major, let's say, 200 clubs in Europe, I would be perfectly confident playing a long term career even if there won't be a fix for this.