FM17 Help me make Conte's Chelsea 3-4-3

[permanentquandary]

As I understand it it's almost a 3-4-2-1, except the 2 play wide as inside forwards.

I'm looking for ideas for roles and duties with a standard balanced approach.

Defensive wingers (S or D?) or WM(D)? Centre mids pretty conservative like CM(D) and BBM(S) or BWM(S)? Two inside forwards on attack with F9?

Edited November 4, 2016 by permanentquandary

[JNOUnited]

I am working on this currently, when I get a chance I'll send a screen of what I've got so far, but I've not played any matches yet.

[Frank27]

I saw it as:

3x CD

2x WB(S)

2x CM(S/D)

2x IF(A) or even WM(A)

1x DLF(A)

Basically a 5-4-1 in defense with the wide midfielders playing as an inside forward. Probably with a deeper defensive line and structured. I don't know if playing Hazard and Pedro as IF(A) in the AML/R position will get them to track back enough to get the 5-4-1 defensive block.

[Chip]

Before you start putting anything in to practice I would do some research into Conte's tactics first. Look at sites such as Speilverlagerung (although I'm not sure they have anything on Chelsea atm), EPLindex, outside of the boot and we ain't got no history.

This will help you understand Conte's tactical thoughts more and what adaptions he makes in games and for other types of games. 

Remember that you probably won't be able to replicate the tactic exactly so some things in the articles you may need to ignore for FM since there's certain pressing techniques which you can't implement in game. Good luck

[JNOUnited]

I've been looking for stuff on conte's tactics and I've only really found stuff on a 3-3-4 from his time at juventus. I'll check those sites though. So far I have made this but yet to test.

3x CD

2x WB in WB Strata

WM (A) DLP (D) CM (S) WM (A)

DLF (A)

Im hoping if I find the right PI's for the WM's that I can get them to play like IF's in the attack phase but get them to help defensively as well. So defensive shape is a 5-4-1 and the attacking shape is 3-4-3

 

[Ji-Sung Park]

Search for Cleons 'art of attacking' thread. It is basically that.

[Chip]

1 hour ago, JNOUnited said:

Im hoping if I find the right PI's for the WM's that I can get them to play like IF's in the attack phase but get them to help defensively as well. So defensive shape is a 5-4-1 and the attacking shape is 3-4-3

Remember you can select an WM's PIs to that similar of a IF if they play a support role. Cuts inside, dribble more, cross less etc. or just whatever suits your needs. 

[JNOUnited]

1 hour ago, Chip said:

Remember you can select an WM's PIs to that similar of a IF if they play a support role. Cuts inside, dribble more, cross less etc. or just whatever suits your needs. 

Yeah, I've done it with Ozil's 3-4-3 formation making players like Martial act that way, so reckon it should be possible.

[MorganGalahad]

I think it is

GK

CDd BPDd CDd

DWs BBMs BBMs DWs

RIFs LIFa

CFs

 

 

[JNOUnited]

Best article I've found on Conte's system.  outside of the boot so cheers chip.

http://outsideoftheboot.com/2016/10/27/tactical-analysis-chelsea-4-0-manchester-united-mourinhos-unhappy-return/

[Amarante]

Heres the shape your looking. The Roles mentality and stuff should differ as 

[Chip]

11 hours ago, JNOUnited said:

Best article I've found on Conte's system.  outside of the boot so cheers chip.

http://outsideoftheboot.com/2016/10/27/tactical-analysis-chelsea-4-0-manchester-united-mourinhos-unhappy-return/

No problem @JNOUnited. There will be many more tactical analysis blogs available so keep an eye out each week after Chelsea play a game and you might find something which will help you. Research always helps when trying to recreate tactics. 

Also, have a read of the '(re)Creating a Tactic' thread on here as this will help you with analysing the tactic etc. It also covers a bit about researching the tactic you wish to create. 

[Ji-Sung Park]

I am working on a 3-1-4-2 type thing with Leicester and stumbled on this thread.

I checked out this thread from weaintgotnohistory:

http://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2016/10/24/13384530/chelsea-4-0-manchester-united-tactics

Judging by this particular match (I didn't watch the game), assuming this analysis from a Chelsea fan is spot on, they would line up something like this:

Roles/duties very much up for debate.

In that post, in the positions map from 11tegen11, you can see that Moses are higher up the pitch than Alonso. Matic linked up with the defenders more often than Kanté, maybe indicating a DLP role? You'll also see Hazard and DC occupying the same space a lot of the time.

I would go with IF(s) or (s), with PI 'sit narrower'. Pedro was more of a winger or wide player in that game, too wide to be an AMC. 

The wide "midfielders", like Moses and Alonso, there I am not sure how you can get them high enough up the pitch in a WB spot. On the other hand, having them as wide midfielders will not replicate their fullback defensive movement. So there is a conundrum there.

[loklokno123]

I think it is difficult to create Hazard's role

He is given max freedom, he appears everywhere.  

[RTHerringbone]

This might be of interest?

http://www.squawka.com/news/contes-blueprint-why-chelseas-3-4-3-is-so-hot-right-now-and-how-to-play-it-properly/818427

[wwxxyyzz]

10 hours ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

I am working on a 3-1-4-2 type thing with Leicester and stumbled on this thread.

I checked out this thread from weaintgotnohistory:

http://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2016/10/24/13384530/chelsea-4-0-manchester-united-tactics

Judging by this particular match (I didn't watch the game), assuming this analysis from a Chelsea fan is spot on, they would line up something like this:

Roles/duties very much up for debate.

In that post, in the positions map from 11tegen11, you can see that Moses are higher up the pitch than Alonso. Matic linked up with the defenders more often than Kanté, maybe indicating a DLP role? You'll also see Hazard and DC occupying the same space a lot of the time.

I would go with IF(s) or (s), with PI 'sit narrower'. Pedro was more of a winger or wide player in that game, too wide to be an AMC. 

The wide "midfielders", like Moses and Alonso, there I am not sure how you can get them high enough up the pitch in a WB spot. On the other hand, having them as wide midfielders will not replicate their fullback defensive movement. So there is a conundrum there.

Matic gets forward a fair bit also

[djsmiley]

Hope you guys are enjoying Conte's Chelsea destroying Everton 5 - 0 up by now, maybe after watching this game we can come with the suitable roles.

 

[JNOUnited]

14 minutes ago, djsmiley said:

Hope you guys are enjoying Conte's Chelsea destroying Everton 5 - 0 up by now, maybe after watching this game we can come with the suitable roles.

 

Only watched the first half, but going to see if I can watch the whole game later. Pedro dropped back more than Hazard in the first half. Alonso and Moses definately dropped back to make a line of 5 in defense and the defense were given license to go forward and be covered by matic and kante.

Passing and time was so crisp. Definitely would love to build this.  

[saihtam]

15 hours ago, loklokno123 said:

I think it is difficult to create Hazard's role

He is given max freedom, he appears everywhere.  

It is hard, but switching him from IF to AP on wing would be better maybe? Give that more movement, maybe not many goals but he is basically playmaker on the wing?

[TheJanitor]

Just played against AI Conte and his side was tough. It was a 3-4-2-1 with DMs and AMRLs. Seemed a bit weird and disjointed at start but it gave me a real hard time. It is an interesting formation and it is hard for me to say it it fully replicates Conte's 3-4-3 shape since I haven't seen much of Chelsea this season but if you think it can be a baseline then I recommend it.

Edited November 5, 2016 by TheJanitor

[djsmiley]

Mentality wise I think Chelsea played counter attack coupled with high tempo, the only roaming I saw was from Hazard in particular as he did everything and a bit of roaming from Pedro otherwise the rest of the team sticked to their positions and as for Costa he likes running at the defence I would say Adv Forward but again Costa was not moving into channels but the role can do with tweaking as he just loves scoring goals...

[PeeDub]

The parts I've found tricky are:

- The WBs don't seem to get up and down enough. They also don't seem to roam around as much as Chelsea's do. Can't get them as involved in buildup as they leave the CMs isolated.

- Can't seem to get the Hazard/Pedro roles to operate in the right zones. AML/R keeps them too wide, and AMCL/R keeps them too narrow and they don't drop into defense the right way.

- Can't find good roles for CMs. Above problem of them being isolated.

I've tried a number of things and never seen such poor performances. Defense is just clueless. 

[PeeDub]

I believe the WBs should be CWBs. Just tried it and it made a big difference. Also tried AP-A on left and IF-S (sit narrower) and that's been a positive change as well.

[Anaconda Vice]

What Mentality, Team Shape, TI's are we looking at?

Counter Mentality for sure.

TI's - Play Wider, Higher Tempo ??

[djsmiley]

Gk-D

CD - CDC - CD

CWB- A and CWB - A

DLP - S and BWM D

IF - S and AP - A

ADF

Mentality = Attack 

Shape = Structured 

TI's= Fairly narrow, Look for overlap.

Not yet finished but I like the movement, surely getting somewhere.

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by djsmiley

[djsmiley]

Much Higher tempo

[PeeDub]

I don't think it's counter. I mean, at times it surely is, but not in general. The first 65 minutes of the Everton game was definitely not counter. I'm using control/fluid right now, with these tis: higher tempo, slightly wider (though might take that off), more closing down, tighter marking, retain possession, look for overlap, and run at defense. I've directed the WBs to stay wider (though they still roam) and the IF-S to sit narrower. I've also made the DM a regista, not a DLP.

Edited November 5, 2016 by PeeDub

[Anaconda Vice]

1 minute ago, PeeDub said:

I don't think it's counter. I mean, at times it surely is, but not in general. The first 65 minutes of the Everton game was definitely not counter. I'm using control/fluid right now, with these tis: higher tempo, slightly wider (though might take that off), more closing down, tighter marking, retain possession, look for overlap, and run at defense. I've directed the WBs to stay wider (though they still roam) and the IF-S to sit narrower. I've also made the DM a regista, not a DLP.

Whats your overall shape?

Like how does it look on paper?

I was thinking wider as well because it says in the analysis he likes the WB's as wide as possible but maybe just the PI of Stay Wider will do that

[Zlatan11]

3-4-3 is the most difficult formation to master in FM, and like everyone I'm amazed with how Chelsea are playing

Someone posted a screenshot with 2 AMC and striker and seeing Chelsea's last 5 games you can clearly see that Hazard and Pedro both stay wide and cut inside so  AMC is not correct, and on the wings quiet frankly don't know if they are better WM or WB...... 

[nexting]

On ‎05‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 01:06, Amarante said:

Heres the shape your looking. The Roles mentality and stuff should differ as 

I used this shape but with Defensive Wingers. Different roles aswell with a counter mentality. Won the League and both cups in the first season. Hazard scored 19 goals and got 21 assists, Costa 31 goals.

[Zlatan11]

3 minutes ago, nexting said:

I used this shape but with Defensive Wingers. Different roles aswell with a counter mentality. Won the League and both cups in the first season. Hazard scored 19 goals and got 21 assists, Costa 31 goals.

Can you post a screenshot?

[BlitzkriegBlue]

Mine is a little more offensive.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=794739404

The only problem I have is Moses and the IF getting too close when without the ball. This because I don't want to put Moses as DW and neither use WBs. I'm getting a decent shape when attacking, though. In attack, I'm having IFs inside (of course), the striker in the middle and BBM plus DLP coming from deep. 3 at the back are defending the rest well. DW and WG are giving a good width.

[JNOUnited]

This is what I am trialing at the moment, but of course this is being used in friendlies which aren't the best indication of whether a tactic is successful.

 

First game was pretty even against a Chinese side which I wasn't happy with. But I changed to control and saw much better results. Standard on Fluid saw the score at 51 minutes at 2-2. Then I went to control and won 4-2.

[BlueIsTheColour]

The trickiest part for me until now is to how to pair up the back 3.... in real life ... David Luiz is playing a BPD with Defend Role and Cahill and Azpilicueta are instructed to stay wide and given license to go forward a little bit. This is explained in this video 

Has any one figured out how to replicate this ? I tried with the following:
 

-----CD(S)-----BPD(C)----CD(S)------

And the average positions of the defenders are just flat.... but as per Conte's tactics it should be a slight arc:

------------------David Luiz--------------------
-----Azpi----------------------------Cahill-----

 

[PeeDub]

6 minutes ago, BlueIsTheColour said:

The trickiest part for me until now is to how to pair up the back 3.... in real life ... David Luiz is playing a BPD with Defend Role and Cahill and Azpilicueta are instructed to stay wide and given license to go forward a little bit. This is explained in this video 

Has any one figured out how to replicate this ? I tried with the following:
 

-----CD(S)-----BPD(C)----CD(S)------

And the average positions of the defenders are just flat.... but as per Conte's tactics it should be a slight arc:

------------------David Luiz--------------------
-----Azpi----------------------------Cahill-----

 

Honestly, it's almost as if all three are BPDs.

[Lobaeux4]

I've been managing Chelsea as well, just destroyed Burnley 6-0 with a 3 man backfield.   I'm not home right now, or I'd post pics.  

I have my formation set up like this:

 

                              DLF/A - Costa           

LIF/A - Hazard                                     RIF/S - Pedro

               LDLP/D - Matic    RBBM/S - Kante 

LCWB/S - Alonso.                              RCWB/A - Moses                          

      LCD/C - Cahill   BPD/D - Luiz   RCD/C - Azpi

                            GK/D - Courtois 

 

for TIs I have Control, Fluid, and Slightly Higher.   

Significant PIs, I have Cahill and Azpi on Close Much Less, Luiz on Dribble More and Close Less, Matic is on Riskier Passes, Moses on Short Pass, Hazard on Sits Narrower, Holds Up Ball, Shoots More, Roams From Position.   I'll look at the tactic when I get home to clarify.

 

I'll make changes based on personnel, Willian gets more of a winger role, crosses more often for example.

 

its very hard to get the tactic perfect, as with every tactic we try to emulate.   Things I may try to get right is getting Moses to sit wider, yet move in more often, getting Matic's movement better, and Kante to quit shooting so much.

 

             

Edited November 6, 2016 by Lobaeux4

[stockportguy86]

If we can get this as a download, I will happily download it 

[permanentquandary]

What about using the Luiz role as a Sweeper or does that not split the 3 at the back enough?

[Lobaeux4]

I'm noticing that my three CDs aren't splitting at all.   Luiz is stepping forward, especially with the ball, but Cahill and Azpi are staying in a line.   I haven't found it to be a problem yet as my wing backs track back nicely.  

[Overmars]

For FM, isn't the big question how they line up defensively? The most aggressive interpretation I would take is 3 central defenders with 2 DMCs in front of them.

[RocheBag]

As a Chelsea supporter, I'm fascinated with Conte's system, and I've watched every match since we've switched to it at least twice. 

Hazard and Pedro roles in terms of FM are absolutely AMC. Players in that position still get wide and work the channels plenty. Putting them at AMR and AML is not representative at all.

[Anaconda Vice]

45 minutes ago, RocheBag said:

As a Chelsea supporter, I'm fascinated with Conte's system, and I've watched every match since we've switched to it at least twice. 

Hazard and Pedro roles in terms of FM are absolutely AMC. Players in that position still get wide and work the channels plenty. Putting them at AMR and AML is not representative at all.

I agree. Definitely AMC.

[NORTZ]

Hey guys so i have tested lots of different suggestions on this forum and found the average positions for different team formations the link below is a big document that shows all the pictures.

TLDR: i think 5-2-2-1 with 2 cams is the best although 5-2-3 with attacking playmakers also looks good. also wingbacks should be CWB/A.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ML-LbkkxnSuowxZAhuxldqSqLhNy0k44PUUmjTGczu8/edit?usp=sharing

If anyone wants the tactics in a file format they can download let me know. Also if you think i should make a thread explaining more in depth for everyone to see i will.

also ignore the grammar and conversational style i typed it up very quickly.

Edited November 6, 2016 by NORTZ

[wwxxyyzz]

What about having two tactics, one with Hazard as AML and Pedro as AMCR, then one with Hazard as AMCL and Pedro as AMR? Just switch between the tactics on the fly during the game. Or both as AML/R and the other as AMC

[PeeDub]

2 hours ago, RocheBag said:

As a Chelsea supporter, I'm fascinated with Conte's system, and I've watched every match since we've switched to it at least twice. 

Hazard and Pedro roles in terms of FM are absolutely AMC. Players in that position still get wide and work the channels plenty. Putting them at AMR and AML is not representative at all.

I have tried that, but I didn't like how it played at all. Couldn't get either to help out defensively on the wings, and the middle just got clogged. How have you set it up?

[Lobaeux4]

I had two AMCs set up originally and didn't like the way it played out.   I set both Hazard and Pedro to AML and AMR, gave them IF roles, set the PIs to sit narrower and cut inside with ball.   For Hazard I gave him roam from position.  

In defense, both Hazard and Pedro stay wider and track back just a bit, but in attack, they move further in.   I'm quite happy with their movement.   

[tremor]

1 hour ago, NORTZ said:

Hey guys so i have tested lots of different suggestions on this forum and found the average positions for different team formations the link below is a big document that shows all the pictures.

TLDR: i think 5-2-2-1 with 2 cams is the best although 5-2-3 with attacking playmakers also looks good. also wingbacks should be CWB/A.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ML-LbkkxnSuowxZAhuxldqSqLhNy0k44PUUmjTGczu8/edit?usp=sharing

If anyone wants the tactics in a file format they can download let me know. Also if you think i should make a thread explaining more in depth for everyone to see i will.

also ignore the grammar and conversational style i typed it up very quickly.

I'd definitely be interested in this, trying to replicate it myself... although with far inferior players down in league 1 with AFC Wimbledon (just been promoted so up to champs now) really want to build going forward with 3 at the back though

[NORTZ]

44 minutes ago, tremor said:

I'd definitely be interested in this, trying to replicate it myself... although with far inferior players down in league 1 with AFC Wimbledon (just been promoted so up to champs now) really want to build going forward with 3 at the back though

Well im playing this formation with a team in the conference so it doesn't matter if its a lower league side, although it is tough to find Wing backs at lower levels of play.

[RocheBag]

1 hour ago, PeeDub said:

I have tried that, but I didn't like how it played at all. Couldn't get either to help out defensively on the wings, and the middle just got clogged. How have you set it up?

They don't help out on the wings much though. They press very high up the pitch, but they don't track back all that much, Hazard especially.

[NORTZ]

1 hour ago, Lobaeux4 said:

I had two AMCs set up originally and didn't like the way it played out.   I set both Hazard and Pedro to AML and AMR, gave them IF roles, set the PIs to sit narrower and cut inside with ball.   For Hazard I gave him roam from position.  

In defense, both Hazard and Pedro stay wider and track back just a bit, but in attack, they move further in.   I'm quite happy with their movement.   

I still find that they stay slightly too wide when we have the ball and it seems to discourage the wingbacks from getting as far forward.