The Official England World Cup Thread

[Cubiscus]

1988 European Championships if I remember correctly. We lost to Soviet Union, Ireland & Dutch. Media & fans demanded Bobby Robson's head. FA stuck with him & two years later got to the SF of world cup.

Roy isn't Bobby, by then already a hugely successful manager.

Hodgson is clearly unable to manage and motivate the team to the required standard.

[daylight]

Hodgson is clearly unable to manage and motivate the team to the required standard.

Yeah that was what was missing, Roy not motivating the team.

If a player needs motivating to play in the World Cup finals then he should look for another profession.

[Razzler]

I remember chatting with Chris Waddle [/namedrop, namedrop] and he said him and a few other players went to Robson with the change of system. He also said Bobby didn't really know how to coach the new system

I seem to remember hearing this from other players too

[foofighter23]

Or, I am just spitballing here, maybe that is just how good you guys are.

Maybe your team is just average when it comes to the finals of competitions, let's be honest here, during the qualification process you guys had some very tight games with the Ukraine, Poland and Montenegro.

Hardly teams you would say could do well come the finals.

Oh i agree! could have said the same thing before a ball was kicked. baines bang average, welbeck bang average, infact, what player came out of these 2 games with any credit? sterling? henderson at a push?

All of them would do well against the teams they are supposed to beat but when it comes to the crunch, theyre just not good enough.

I will add though, they were not helped at all with the balance and set up being just wrong for both games as we were basically set up to lose in both of them.

[Cubiscus]

Yeah that was what was missing, Roy not motivating the team.

If a player needs motivating to play in the World Cup finals then he should look for another profession.

Clearly they were not properly motivated yesterday, we played nervously from the start. He's always had this problem with the bigger name players, which is why he always fails at the highest level.

Team was wrong, tactics wrong, substitutions wrong, squad wrong, qualifiers a complete mess that cost us a group seeding.

[Emersonlfc]

https://vine.co/v/MTrtQLuuhY0

This is by far the best vine clip ever.

[Razzler]

I think qualification doesn't really matter. It's what happens when you're there

Qualification is over 2 years, there's all kinds of factors along the way. Form of players, conditions and so on. We have struggled to qualify and we have qualified pretty easily. Doesn't matter. All that matters is when you are there

I'd take 3 points home and 1 away against most teams in quals and that's pretty much what we did. The fixtures worked out that we had 2 home games at the end against teams we should beat and we beat them. Of course we had to make it into some amazing feat against all the odds!

[Razzler]

Clearly they were not properly motivated yesterday, we played nervously from the start. He's always had this problem with the bigger name players, which is why he always fails at the highest level.

Playing nervously from the start is called bottling it. Uruguay had been beaten by Costa Rica and were far worse than us and they seemed fine. Was their manager really in there giving them a rallying speech or was he talking about the game like a normal person and what they all needed to do and what to expect?

[gillsminnow]

This is by far the best vine clip ever.

He looks like one of those little owls

[themadsheep2001]

Or, I am just spitballing here, maybe that is just how good you guys are.

Maybe your team is just average when it comes to the finals of competitions, let's be honest here, during the qualification process you guys had some very tight games with the Ukraine, Poland and Montenegro.

Hardly teams you would say could do well come the finals.

We're a team that should be playing 4-3-3. We consistently expose our weaknesses and hide our strengths. Why didnt Milner come on at any point, to add defensive steel? Because we think attacking football requires attacking players only.

[Razzler]

I think we need an updated Roy's Winter Walkabout youtube thingy

[Cubiscus]

It matters in a way because it defines your seeding, and significantly impacts how difficult the group is.

[Razzler]

We're a team that should be playing 4-3-3. We consistently expose our weaknesses and hide our strengths. Why didnt Milner come on at any point, to add defensive steel? Because we think attacking football requires attacking players only.

I think it could have even been one for Milner to start but people would have groaned and I wonder if that affected Roy's thinking. I would bloody hope not but ...

[themadsheep2001]

Playing nervously from the start is called bottling it. Uruguay had been beaten by Costa Rica and were far worse than us and they seemed fine. Was their manager really in there giving them a rallying speech or was he talking about the game like a normal person and what they all needed to do and what to expect?

I dont think we bottled it, we just played ourselves into trouble. 4-2-3-1, but with 6 so deep there is only one option: Forcing to come deep with back to goal. Sterling was double marked but we didnt adapt. We didnt offer basic outs. That wasn't bottling it, thats just a poor system and poor intelligence. and despite what we like to say about them, these players arent thick, They do understand give and go.

[themadsheep2001]

I think it could have even been one for Milner to start but people would have groaned and I wonder if that affected Roy's thinking. I would bloody hope not but ...

I think it did. The thing is with the possible debate over Baines /Cole, this is the squad many wanted (you know my feelings well on not taking Barry or Carrick, and I feel sadly vindicated on that, would have much preferred to be wrong)

[Razzler]

It matters in a way because it defines your seeding, and significantly impacts how difficult the group is.

Oh sure, for seeding but we tend to finish top a fair bit anyway and our seeding has seen us slip out that top pot nowadays for tournaments

We could have got an easier group too. All sorts of things. Even this team with an easier group could have got through and out next round of 1/4 finals and we'd class it a success.

France are playing quite well but even if they weren't I think they could find themselves in the 1/4s without much hassle

[foofighter23]

I think it could have even been one for Milner to start but people would have groaned and I wonder if that affected Roy's thinking. I would bloody hope not but ...

I thought this too. i fully expected milner to start the first game and was right behind the idea. I did wonder if he had been 'talked into' having a go...

[Cubiscus]

Playing nervously from the start is called bottling it. Uruguay had been beaten by Costa Rica and were far worse than us and they seemed fine. Was their manager really in there giving them a rallying speech or was he talking about the game like a normal person and what they all needed to do and what to expect?

They has Suarez back.

Whichever way you look at it, out after 2 games is clearly a sackable offence. We didn't even get near our usual QF.

[Razzler]

I dont think we bottled it, we just played ourselves into trouble. 4-2-3-1, but with 6 so deep there is only one option: Forcing to come deep with back to goal. Sterling was double marked but we didnt adapt. We didnt offer basic outs. That wasn't bottling it, thats just a poor system and poor intelligence. and despite what we like to say about them, these players arent thick, They do understand give and go.

This failing to adapt on the pitch happens a fair bit. That is an intelligence imo. You don't see Suarez confused, if things aren't working he'll change something himself. We can criticise Hodgson but there are things players should be able to cope with

They understand give and go but don't do it ... it's hiding imo not being responsible. It happens so often and usually in crunch games where you need people to accept responsibility on the ball

[grff]

Or, I am just spitballing here, maybe that is just how good you guys are.Maybe your team is just average when it comes to the finals of competitions, let's be honest here, during the qualification process you guys had some very tight games with the Ukraine, Poland and Montenegro.Hardly teams you would say could do well come the finals.

Can't help but agree with this. Most of our players are able to perform well in their club teams because they are surrounded and supplemented by quality foreign players. They then fall short when playing for England as they are thown in with a bunch of Average Joes.

[Razzler]

They has Suarez back.

Whichever way you look at it, out after 2 games is clearly a sackable offence. We didn't even get near our usual QF.

We need an element of stability. No point in keep changing manager every 2 years. Let him finish his 4 year run. See how we are in Quals. Everyone should qualify for the Euros, ffs but see what he does with the system

We don't have that many managers to pick from and fewer and fewer working in the Prem with jobs going overseas. As I said during this past season it won't be long before we're fishing for England managers from the Championship as we'll have so few options

[Cubiscus]

Oh sure, for seeding but we tend to finish top a fair bit anyway and our seeding has seen us slip out that top pot nowadays for tournaments

We could have got an easier group too. All sorts of things. Even this team with an easier group could have got through and out next round of 1/4 finals and we'd class it a success.

France are playing quite well but even if they weren't I think they could find themselves in the 1/4s without much hassle

For the Euros, sure. We always in pot 2. But our qualifying put us behind Switzerland for example and would immediately have removed one of Italy / Uruguay.

Of course we always make a mess of the groups, but we always get through. Last 16 looks winnable too.

[Razzler]

Can't help but agree with this. Most of our players are able to perform well in their club teams because they are surrounded and supplemented by quality foreign players. They then fall short when playing for England as they are thown in with a bunch of Average Joes.

I think the 'all the foreigners are great and the English players at their clubs are rubbish' is a little simplistic

[Razzler]

For the Euros, sure. We always in pot 2. But our qualifying put us behind Switzerland for example and would immediately have removed one of Italy / Uruguay.

Of course we always make a mess of the groups, but we always get through. Last 16 looks winnable too.

Apparently, had we not played one of our stupid games that meant nothing we would have been seeded above the Swiss. They played fewer friendlies as well

Meh

[Cubiscus]

We need an element of stability. No point in keep changing manager every 2 years. Let him finish his 4 year run. See how we are in Quals. Everyone should qualify for the Euros, ffs but see what he does with the system

We don't have that many managers to pick from and fewer and fewer working in the Prem with jobs going overseas. As I said during this past season it won't be long before we're fishing for England managers from the Championship as we'll have so few options

He's had two tournaments, both poor, and has proved over 25 years he's not cut out to manage at this level. Let's not forget we were awful in qualifying too. What's the point in sticking with a mediocre manager istead of giving someone else a chance?

[Cubiscus]

Apparently, had we not played one of our stupid games that meant nothing we would have been seeded above the Swiss. They played fewer friendlies as well

Meh

Same for the Dutch too apparently, who were slightly ahead of us.

[Razzler]

I think we can give him a pass on the last tournament. He had little to do with the squad and sort of came in late

At least we got out the group too

If we give all our managers a couple of years we'll have gone through all the top level ones within a few tournaments tbh

[foofighter23]

Is hodgson top level though?

The evidence suggests not. I'd rather sack an england manager for real reasons rather than media witchhunts and the stuff that went on in the past to get rid of them, anyday.

[Razzler]

Which English manager is though?

None will be getting a shot at the top 4 or 5 jobs in the league and even midtable jobs are going to imported managers now

Yet another area we need to work on, more coaches. I believe this is one of the things St Georges Park is doing? Gonna take a decade or so before we notice anything but needs doing

They can look forward to being overlooked for top jobs in the future whilst a former player that scored a lot of goals gets a job

[Cubiscus]

Is hodgson top level though?

The evidence suggests not.

He's not - each he's been near the top level he's failed. Inter, Liverpool, England now. Even Blackburn a couple of years after they won the league.

Honestly I'd prefer to have Hoddle back, even now.

[scott MUFC]

rather chop and change then be stable and crap tbh

[Cubiscus]

rather chop and change then be stable and crap tbh

Exactly, better to have some ambition. I'd happily give Harry a shot too instead, can't be any worse.

[Razzler]

Then when 'arry and Pardew have a go ... then what?

I'd like to see a few younger guys start the final game. Baines is number 1 and not had a good tournament so start Shaw. I'd like Lallana starting and Wilshere even. If Gerrard doesn't play that is ok, just 2 oe 3 changes but no way Gerrard is dropped. This is his final game, for sure with Liverpool in the CL

[scott MUFC]

Gerrard should be binned.

[Pukey]

They has Suarez back.

Whichever way you look at it, out after 2 games is clearly a sackable offence. We didn't even get near our usual QF.

Yeah, let's ignore factors like how average our players are and the teams we've played. Let's ignore the improvement over the last 4 years. Let's ignore everything and have a massive kneejerk reaction because those always end up working ****ing fantastically.

Exactly, better to have some ambition. I'd happily give Harry a shot too instead, can't be any worse.

What planet are you on if you'd rather have him ffs. Changing managers isn't "ambition."

Hodgson has his flaws. Qualifying wasn't great. But sacking him solves precisely **** all.

[scott MUFC]

after 2 games? the pre-tournament friendly results were poor as well.

[Pukey]

Oh Scott, you've made me seen the light. I hadn't considered those meaningful, 100% serious friendlies that everybody cares about.

I truly hope the FA see the light too. "We played alright, were unfortunate to lose both games to teams of similar quality...but wait, our friendly results were a bit naff too. Yeah, best get rid."

[scott MUFC]

yea they don't matter, so what? we havn't stepped up a gear from them have we?

[Pukey]

We played far better teams than in our friendlies for god's sake

[scott MUFC]

far better?

on this groups showing, not really

[aggressive minor]

Pukey playing Icon's role in the United thread.

Woy's ain't done awfully at all- but he failed in the world cup, simple as that. Any other nation would sack him, but we're England, we give big money, long term contracts (and when we need to sack, we give big payouts!).

[Razzler]

Spain are sticking with del Bosque ...

[ajw10]

far better?

on this groups showing, not really

Erm, yes really. Stop being wrong.

[football_master_94]

Spain are sticking with del Bosque ...

So? At least in that case you can point to 3 or so years of success with their poor performance being a one off. (It's also not certain if he'll stay on as he's refused to commit to Spain, it's merely their FA saying that they won't sack him).

[Razzler]

So, if Spain with their 'end of an era' defeat can stick with their manager I am sure we can stick with ours after everyone predicted we wouldn't get out the group

We're not in a position to change manager every two years. We are accept we will fall short at tournaments to varying degrees so that means changes every 2 to 4 years

[Razzler]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/10914998/World-Cup-2014-England-can-claim-some-sporting-success-but-in-football-its-one-melodrama-after-another.html

In the meantime the FA will say a training ground by the sea beneath Sugarloaf Mountain reflects quick thinking by the travel department. But it also points to a history of showboating. It would be no surprise to see England set up a training ground in front of Versailles at France 2016.

It may seem a minor detail, but England staged press conferences during the Spain-Holland and Germany-Portugal games. Why were they not all watching those crucial matches? These players seem a good bunch – and Hodgson is certainly a student of the world game – but there is still a suspicion that England create a bubble for themselves at tournaments. At World Cups, it is a short journey from big shots to beach bums.

Paul Hayward in the Telegraph is really reaching with his criticism

Oh no, what show off for where they train Followed by a huff and a massive assumption based on nothing to back up his ridiculous point. "They'll probably train on top of the eiffel tower"!!! erm, no

Really wanting to continue the 'England are in a bubble' trope that we all enjoyed so much at the last World Cup but ... yeah, not really though, eh

Hey, England, watch the Dutch and German games guys! What an idiot. Really trying so hard. Whaaaat, they didn't all sit together and watch Germany/Portugal!!! The arrogance of it!! Haha

This kind of thing is one of the reasons I pretty much read nothing about England just before or after tournaments unless it's team news or stuff from camp. I saw this headline 'why must it always end in tears' and I foolishly expected some article of past failings and analysis

[football_master_94]

So, if Spain with their 'end of an era' defeat can stick with their manager I am sure we can stick with ours after everyone predicted we wouldn't get out the group

We're not in a position to change manager every two years. We are accept we will fall short at tournaments to varying degrees so that means changes every 2 to 4 years

But surely Hodgson's had his time now, though? I agree that constantly changing managers won't provide stability but this tournament has shown that he's not the right man for the job. Basically what he's getting is a pass until the Euros where he probably won't get beyond the QF or last 16 (with the new bizarre format) and then he'd get binned off so I don't see why you just fast forward that process two years and start afresh with a new manager.

It's also not really about what the fans expected or not going into it, it's the manner in which you guys have crashed out and where Hodgson's tactical limitations have been shown (as well as his iffy personnel choices leading into the WC).

[Razzler]

His time was a 4 year contract so it looks like he'll get that

A lot of people thought we wouldn't get out of this group although we thought we could. Sadly, we haven't. There is no 'right man' for the job, we have tried everything. We had one of the best club managers around in Capello, qualified well, as usual, and then were even worse than this tournament although we got further. Our problems lay deeper and they will continue to not be addressed and probably forgotten until September as everyone goes back to watching the Premier League

[Cubiscus]

What planet are you on if you'd rather have him ffs. Changing managers isn't "ambition."

Hodgson has his flaws. Qualifying wasn't great. But sacking him solves precisely **** all.

Our players aren't much worse than at previous tournaments and we always qualified. We were poor in qualifying which cost us our seed, poor in pretty much any other game too. At what point do you pull the plug then?

By your logic United should have just stuck with Moyes, despite complete failure, a history of winning nothing, and no evidence pointing to an any improvement.

[Icondacarver]

Our players aren't much worse than at previous tournaments and we always qualified.

Hart is slightly better than last few keepers

Johnson is Johnson

Two CBs and LB are a downgrade

Gerrard is downgrade on previous Gerrard's

Henderson was no better than any previous tournament CM

Rooney was out of position (can't be helped) and was a downgrade

Sterling was good and better than Walcott etc

Welbeck out of position (can't be helped) and was a downgrade

Sturridge looks better than the last couple forwards

Ha