A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[cynet]

Which country do you think would force Miles to give an answer?

Its a UK product, every where else is just a bonus.

[The Welsh Lad]

This is what I hate about this country at time's people are happy to lie over and die because it's not worth the fight or they are happy to go with the flow, like I said if your happy make your peace and if your not carry on but with different perspective of take on the matter.

It's not happy to lie over and die, it's picking the right fight. This is not the right fight. If they turned around and said due to pirating we are stopping the maufacture of the game, then thats worth a fight to change their minds.

[themadsheep2001]

@Cynet, I seem to have lost the plot and confused Miles with Neil :o

@left back.It will be interesting tosee what effects this has in the first few weeks, personally dont think a change of direction will happen unless there is a fairly big negative. Not Ideal and I can see why some dont like it and feely for those will have genuine issues with this, but if they think its the way to and it has an overall positive effect i cant see it changing

[cynet]

Don't lose sight of the fact that a lot of people are actually happy with this decision.

Kriss wait until purchase day, remember FM09 fiasco, ring any bells, it was a disaster using a third party activation source, people wasn't expecting it and didn't want it.

[Kriss]

Its a UK product, every where else is just a bonus.

Stop being a pain in the butt or I'll ban you for not capitalising your name:D

[milnerpoint]

It's not happy to lie over and die, it's picking the right fight. This is not the right fight. If they turned around and said due to pirating we are stopping the maufacture of the game, then thats worth a fight to change their minds.

exactly, there is no fight here really, this is happening for FM12 like it or not, the sales figures will decide if it continues this way or not, so lets all just give it the chance to either succeed or fail, in three months time there may be a non steam patch, or in a years time this might be seen to be the best idea SI and SEGA had, but no one here is going to change this for FM12.

[cynet]

It's not happy to lie over and die, it's picking the right fight. This is not the right fight. If they turned around and said due to pirating we are stopping the maufacture of the game, then thats worth a fight to change their minds.

Pirating is a excuse, you can't beat it plain and simple, it's about sharing with in a house hold where there is more than one wanting to play, lost revenue, as for Steam it's promoting them and there cause, money to made from both sides on a link up where Steam discount on percentage of sales Sega make from selling the FM game, it's all smoke and mirrors, FM will continue regardless of the pirating situation.

[cynet]

Stop being a pain in the butt or I'll ban you for not capitalising your name:D

Communism is alive and kicking in the Cynet house hold

[Kriss]

Kriss wait until purchase day, remember FM09 fiasco, ring any bells, it was a disaster using a third party activation source, people wasn't expecting it and didn't want it.

That was a factor in this decision I'm pretty sure, I honestly expect this to go reasonably well on the day though.

[The Welsh Lad]

exactly, there is no fight here really, this is happening for FM12 like it or not, the sales figures will decide if it continues this way or not, so lets all just give it the chance to either succeed or fail, in three months time there may be a non steam patch, or in a years time this might be seen to be the best idea SI and SEGA had, but no one here is going to change this for FM12.

I was against it at first but if I got to have it to play a game I love then I got to give it a go.

[milnerpoint]

I was against it at first but if I got to have it to play a game I love then I got to give it a go.

And thats all anyone at SI can ask from anyone, give it a shot, let them know what you think, they will definately listen with something this important, if the vast majority of people hate it, or if they suffer sales wise, next year will be different.

[The Welsh Lad]

Pirating is a excuse, you can't beat it plain and simple, it's about sharing with in a house hold where there is more than one wanting to play, lost revenue, as for Steam it's promoting them and there cause, money to made from both sides on a link up where Steam discount on percentage of sales Sega make from selling the FM game, it's all smoke and mirrors, FM will continue regardless of the pirating situation.

People will either have to buy 2 games or take turns, thats what me and my brother done for years even on the Amiga on SWOS, when I was out he would play when I came home I would play, if we both wanted to play we had a two player save. Some people just don't want change.

[cynet]

That was a factor in this decision I'm pretty sure, I honestly expect this to go reasonably well on the day though.

Only time will tell Kriss but am shocked in truth with this decision, doesn't make good business sense to me, for those who don't have internet they will be the ones who will be missing out, plus those who don't believe in using a third party site, big shame, but wont be buying it which will be the first time ever like I said.

Hope Sega make it clear on the packaging that a internet connection is required, something FM09 failed to mention

[The Welsh Lad]

And thats all anyone at SI can ask from anyone, give it a shot, let them know what you think, they will definately listen with something this important, if the vast majority of people hate it, or if they suffer sales wise, next year will be different.

Even thought they will never stop pirating, wouldn't it be good that has a result sales increased and as a result the AI team building flaw got fixed

[leftback in the changing room]

@Cynet, I seem to have lost the plot and confused Miles with Neil :o

@left back.It will be interesting tosee what effects this has in the first few weeks, personally dont think a change of direction will happen unless there is a fairly big negative. Not Ideal and I can see why some dont like it and feely for those will have genuine issues with this, but if they think its the way to and it has an overall positive effect i cant see it changing

That's my stance as well. A significant majority of people who replied to this thread or voted in the poll(s) are comfortable with steam, and some are actively happy that it is the activation method of choice. The ONLY way that this decision had even the slightest chance of being reversed was if there was almost total rejection on here. So like it or not (and I don't) it will stay.

The next test is release day... or 3 hours after release day, when the complaints start to roll in or the returns commence.

[themadsheep2001]

And thats all anyone at SI can ask from anyone, give it a shot, let them know what you think, they will definately listen with something this important, if the vast majority of people hate it, or if they suffer sales wise, next year will be different.

+1. This is how any change in direction will occur imo

[milnerpoint]

Even thought they will never stop pirating, wouldn't it be good that has a result sales increased and as a result the AI team building flaw got fixed

If they make more money, it means more money to making the game better, which obviously benefits everyone, but like i say time will tell, if it flops SI and SEGA will learn, they are not stupid people, despite some of the suggestions in the threads.

[Wakers]

That's not really true. If the vast majority of people hate it, but sales don't go down or go up they won't change a thing.

[phnompenhandy]

This post will get lost amidst all the noise of 17 pages and counting, but let me go on the record here with a prediction.

My prediction falls into 2 parts:

1. Sales of FM2012 will be disappointing.

2. SI/SEGA analysts will conclude that the cause of poor sales is piracy. They will NOT admit that this decision to force activation through Steam is a major factor, despite the many warnings in this thread.

[Wakers]

This post will get lost amidst all the noise of 17 pages and counting, but let me go on the record here with a prediction.

My prediction falls into 2 parts:

1. Sales of FM2012 will be disappointing.

2. SI/SEGA analysts will conclude that the cause of poor sales is piracy. They will NOT admit that this decision to force activation through Steam is a major factor, despite the many warnings in this thread.

Sales won't be disappointing.

The vast majority of people who play FM never visit these forums. Therefore, they won't know that they need Steam to activate the game. They will buy it, install Steam, succeed or fail (at which point a few them might appear on the forums) and then will either continue to play the game, or not bother with it / attempt to give it away.

All Sega will see from that is 1 sale, regardless of whether or not the customer was able to play/played for a week/played for an entire year until the next version is released.

But yes, you're right in that they have a ready made excuse if the Steam experiment goes wrong. At which point they will come on here and completely forget the fact that they analysed, "in detail" the pros and cons of Steam activation.

[MunkD]

Sorry if this has been asked, will the demo be steam activated so people can give it a trial?

[The Welsh Lad]

That's not really true. If the vast majority of people hate it, but sales don't go down or go up they won't change a thing.

If sales don't go down or go up that means that this decision just replaced the ones that 1.) cannot play the game for technical issue 2.) wont play the game for personal reasons. When the people in number 1 sort out their technical issues then sales will improve

[milnerpoint]

That's not really true. If the vast majority of people hate it, but sales don't go down or go up they won't change a thing.

Yeah your right thats too general, if people hate it because of genuine technical problems, be it steam going down, or it not working then they will look at things, but not people hating it because of nothing more than not wanting to use steam.

[Wakers]

Sorry if this has been asked, will the demo be steam activated so people can give it a trial?

Pretty sure the demo will be released via Steam and possibly through a regular download.

The last few demos have been available through Steam, I think.

It's still possible that the worst thing about Fm12 is the game itself (as was the case with FM09. By far the worst football manager game I've ever played and that was after all the patches. That had the dreadful online activation debacle too.)

[Bates Out!]

Think this is a terrible move. I really, really don't like steam and although I haven't read the thread I'm sure there are many others in the same boat. You aim to combat piracy but you're going to do just the opposite - encourage it. If I was a betting man I'd place a lot on sales being below the expected figure this year, all down to this.

Been feeling less and less in love with FM over the years but still bought it because, well, it's FM, but I don't think I will this year. When some of my mates get a pirated version (lets not kid ourselves, most people will) I'll go round and see if it's any good. If it is I might buy it when the price does down, but until then goodbye and thanks for the memories

[Kriss]

I've just thought of one possible positive about Steam that hasn't been mentioned.

In the past patches have had to be held back effectively until they were substantial because the distribution methods were many and quite complex and took time to set up then activate.

Steam auto updating means any single update can be added when ready, so if they want to take advantage of that we could get "critical" fixes a lot quicker.

Hope that makes sense.

[Wakers]

I've just thought of one possible positive about Steam that hasn't been mentioned.

In the past patches have had to be held back effectively until they were substantial because the distribution methods were many and quite complex and took time to set up then activate.

Steam auto updating means any single update can be added when ready, so if they want to take advantage of that we could get "critical" fixes a lot quicker.

Hope that makes sense.

I don't know if that works with FM - I don't know if SI have the structure in place to work like that, otherwise they would have been able to do critical patches anyway (if other games can do it without Steam, there's no reason SI can't).

[Kriss]

All Sega will see from that is 1 sale, regardless of whether or not the customer was able to play/played for a week/played for an entire year until the next version is released.

I think Steam gives them access to quite a lot of information on that score (at least for people not playing offline) so they'll probably see a good deal more than 1 sale.

[Wakers]

I think Steam gives them access to quite a lot of information on that score (at least for people not playing offline) so they'll probably see a good deal more than 1 sale.

As the user has no way to tell Steam why they don't play, Sega will not know the reason why they didn't play it.

[leftback in the changing room]

Downside is that if SI release a patch that isn't fully compatible with saved games that gets installed automatically by Steam, then all hell will break loose....

I have a suspicion that the method of distributing patches by Steam is another consideration of SI's. After FM2008 I had some interaction with Miles over the fact that patches weren't available as file dowloads from SI/Sega sources (only torrents or file upload site mirrors). In future versions the patches were more readily available from the official sites, but Miles made it clear that the bandwidth costs that came with hosting the patches were significant. Going to Steam solves this problem completely.

[Kriss]

It's still possible that the worst thing about Fm12 is the game itself (as was the case with FM09. By far the worst football manager game I've ever played and that was after all the patches. That had the dreadful online activation debacle too.)

Yeh:D you're the first person in all these pages to actually mention the game, it's kind of an important element too lol, if it gets rave reviews (from us obviously not reviewers) then that's quite likely to impact on whether or not people buy it steam or no.

[Kriss]

Downside is that if SI release a patch that isn't fully compatible with saved games that gets installed automatically by Steam, then all hell will break loose....

I have a suspicion that the method of distributing patches by Steam is another consideration of SI's. After FM2008 I had some interaction with Miles over the fact that patches weren't available as file dowloads from SI/Sega sources (only torrents or file upload site mirrors). In future versions the patches were more readily available from the official sites, but Miles made it clear that the bandwidth costs that came with hosting the patches were significant. Going to Steam solves this problem completely.

Yes, as I said earlier I doubt Steam have ever faced a demand for optional patch versions, maybe they should be exploring that possibility as the demand is kind of unique to FM.

[Kriss]

As the user has no way to tell Steam why they don't play, Sega will not know the reason why they didn't play it.

No but they'll get some kind of numbers from hours played etc, I'm hazy on what's actually available to them but i'd guess it's more than SI currently get.

[7Bestie7]

I think we can pretty much assume the main issue (asides from any personal issues with Steam) comes down to this:

1 - People want to buy and use product A.

2 - People get very annoyed if they are told that product A must be used with product B in order to work.

3 - People want product A to work, outside company issues doesn't concern them, so any attempt at explaining why product B is required is ignored on the grounds that it is being "forced" upon them.

There are quite a number of products out there, both electronic or not, that done the years have required customers to pay for something else to make it work. Heck, printers don't come with USB cables nowadays so there's an easy example.

And before the argument about how Steam isn't required for FM to be used, well actually yes it is. To authenticate and thus use the game you need Steam. In this version of FM, Steam is a VITAL component of the customer experience unless you break the law.

So, for coming years perhaps the issue isn't Steam but rather SI/SEGA either making their own version for customers to authenticate through or allowing an option of different programs (Steam and AN Other) if possible to give those crying out about their infringement upon human rights the chance to choose their poison.

FM 10/11 - Steam was an optional piece of software to run the game.

FM 12 - Steam is a vital piece of software to run the game.

Everything else in this thread is window dressing. And now, back to Doctor Who I go.

[sounder2]

Just read this...brilliant. The Steam sales people have pulled a fast one on Sega. 'Oh look how much money you're losing through piracy. You should be zillionaires instead of simple millionaires! License it exclusively to us and we'll make sure you get those '2 out of 3' sales we've researched you're losing, making money for us both.' Sigh, I cant believe they fell for that when so many...most other massive game companies sent them packing straight out the door (my friend used to work for steam in corporate sales - he is amazed they got FM on the books!!). Hung by their own greed and trouble to come. So long for now FM. I'll see you on 'rip'-side...

[Keyzer Soze]

I think we can pretty much assume the main issue (asides from any personal issues with Steam) comes down to this:

1 - People want to buy and use product A.

2 - People get very annoyed if they are told that product A must be used with product B in order to work.

3 - People want product A to work, outside company issues doesn't concern them, so any attempt at explaining why product B is required is ignored on the grounds that it is being "forced" upon them.

But common, with FM2011 (product A) dont you need net framework (product B), directx (product C), java (product D). Hell, you even need a OS like windows (product S**T) to run the game!

I really dont understand all these noise! In order to play the game you need severall "third party softwares"... and steam will be one more to join the list!

I'm not saying that all the people that are against and dont want to buy the game dont have that right! Of course you have... but have you really stop to think that you will stop playing a game that you love, just to not install a piece of software? It seems a bit drastic dont you think?

[7Bestie7]

But common, with FM2011 (product A) dont you need net framework (product B), directx (product C), java (product D). Hell, you even need a OS like windows (product S**T) to run the game!

I really dont understand all these noise! In order to play the game you need severall "third party softwares"... and steam will be one more to join the list!

I'm not saying that all the people that are against and dont want to buy the game dont have that right! Of course you have... but have you really stop to think that you will stop playing a game that you love, just to not install a piece of software? It seems a bit drastic dont you think?

Of course you need all of those things. But most of them have either been installed already or are installed when the game is and then aren't obvious in their usage. A lot of what the issue seems to be is Steam is an "obvious" program.

[x42bn6]

But common, with FM2011 (product A) dont you need net framework (product B), directx (product C), java (product D). Hell, you even need a OS like windows (product S**T) to run the game!

I really dont understand all these noise! In order to play the game you need severall "third party softwares"... and steam will be one more to join the list!

I'm not saying that all the people that are against and dont want to buy the game dont have that right! Of course you have... but have you really stop to think that you will stop playing a game that you love, just to not install a piece of software? It seems a bit drastic dont you think?

No. It's not drastic at all. When I want to use a piece of software, I would ideally only want that piece of software on my system. If it needs any third-party utilities, I will consider them on their merits one by one.

That's how you keep your computer clean, quick and safe.

[Abramovic]

Steam has been brought in to prevent pre-owned sales simple as that. My major problem with this is, the price has stayed the same.

When i shell out 50 euros for a game up till now i was able to re coupe money though trade ins.

[Keyzer Soze]

Of course you need all of those things. But most of them have either been installed already or are installed when the game is and then aren't obvious in their usage. A lot of what the issue seems to be is Steam is an "obvious" program.

So lets say SI would say something like "steam will be automaticly install with the game, like directx, and because of that the graphics in the game will be better!! extra-special!!!"

If that was the case... no problem for you with steam?

[nessi]

from steam subscriber agreement:

Section 13B - "Valve reserves the right to collect fees, surcharges or costs incurred prior to the cancellation of your Account or a particular Subscription. In addition, you are responsible for any charges incurred to third-party vendors or content providers before your cancellation.In the event that your Account or a particular subscription is terminated or canceled by you, no refund, including any Subscription fees, will be granted. "

eh?

[DeadPanda]

from steam subscriber agreement:

Section 13B - "Valve reserves the right to collect fees, surcharges or costs incurred prior to the cancellation of your Account or a particular Subscription. In addition, you are responsible for any charges incurred to third-party vendors or content providers before your cancellation.In the event that your Account or a particular subscription is terminated or canceled by you, no refund, including any Subscription fees, will be granted. "

eh?

Forget about this. you dont pay for steam or anything, and if your using it purely for FM, you wouldnt ever even come across this. This is referring to other subscriptions you may have made through steam, so you neednt worry about this...

For that matter, no one neednt worry about steam at all. All this fuss over nothing to be honest.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

But common, with FM2011 (product A) dont you need net framework (product B), directx (product C), java (product D). Hell, you even need a OS like windows (product S**T) to run the game!

I really dont understand all these noise! In order to play the game you need severall "third party softwares"... and steam will be one more to join the list!

I'm not saying that all the people that are against and dont want to buy the game dont have that right! Of course you have... but have you really stop to think that you will stop playing a game that you love, just to not install a piece of software? It seems a bit drastic dont you think?

It's more than a bit drastic, if you flip that around and consider that people are sacrificing something they love, then it stands to reason it's because of something important to them. This includes me, still playing FM10 and really looking forward to FM12.

[Matt_no_7]

I'm seriously tired of the same old reaction.

"Oh it just takes 5mins."

"You'll never know it's there."

"It's not a big deal, your just making it a big deal."

I have Kelly Brook ready to take you to bed for the night..... However, first i have to smash your toes with a hammer.... It won't take long, you'll forget about it when your in bed with her and it's not that big of a deal, they are only your toes.

Is anyone seriously going to go for this? No they are not. So why the hell should i download a Steam-ing turd before i play FM12?

An extreme example but what people still FAIL to understand is that the reason's for not wanting it are irrelivant, our annoyance comes from being forced into a position where it's either Steam and FM or neither. People don't want to have their options limited, if you like Steam then great, good for you, i'm sure it's a great tool for you but i have no need, want or desire to have it festering on my PC.

I've heard people say it's extreme that we'd give up a game we love for principles..... I find it extreme that some would give up their principles for a game. It may be something small now but where does it end? If you let people bully you once they'll bully you again.

[7Bestie7]

So lets say SI would say something like "steam will be automaticly install with the game, like directx, and because of that the graphics in the game will be better!! extra-special!!!"

If that was the case... no problem for you with steam?

I'm completely on the fence when it comes to Steam, I'm not happy with the idea but I'll be giving it a go because I want to play 12. What I was saying in my post is that the argument that Steam isn't a requirement for FM12 isn't true. At this present point in time, the software is essentially an external addon which makes the running of FM12 possible. I think that a lot of people would feel easier if, rather than it being Steam, it was an external piece of software downloaded from the SI website which locks a user's account information to a specific copy of the game rather than a 3rd party program. The two situations are essentially the same except for the origin of the extra software required.

Plenty of programs need extras to work and each extra connects to the internet for updates, can go wrong or mess up a computer. These extras come from 3rd party companies. The major difference between Steam and anything else is that Steam is an active program that the user is able to switch on/off, interact with and do other things with if they want to. One of the issues raised in this thread is this extra utility somehow makes Steam far more of an issue than say DirectX being needed is.

[Carmi88]

yes, everybody who is using steam gave up their principles, or maybe we are not bothered by something that does not effect you in any way, your just making abig deal out of It because you like being awkward

[seagull84]

Firstly I have no issues with STEAM , I've used it in the past to buy Football Manager (when I lived in England).

For the past 3 years I've been in South Korea , every time a new FM came out I always checked STEAM first, but it has never been available here. So, I always used gamersgate.com or game.co.uk with no real problems (byteshield - yuck!)

This year again it is not possible to buy and download through STEAM in Korea, so I'm wondering if i digitally download it from another site will I even be able to activate through STEAM? Or in fact do digital downloads have to be activated fthrough STEAM?

I couldn't think of anything more frustrating than having the game on my hard drive bought and paid for but being region locked out of playing it....!

Any help greatly appreciated, cheers.

(posted as a thread but this seems a lot more active)

[Matt_no_7]

yes, everybody who is using steam gave up their principles, or maybe we are not bothered by something that does not effect you in any way, your just making abig deal out of It because you like being awkward

Awkward, stubborn... I am both these things. I don't let people lead me down the garden path or **** in my corn flakes and tell me it's milk. If i don't want something then there ain't a person alive who will tell me different, if i don't want to do something, i ain't gonna do it, nothing will ever change that. I'm awkward, stubborn and strong willed, that's why i don't go for all this sugar coating like most will.

Steam may take 5 mins, but it's my 5 mins and things like this are rarely the end it's just the beginning.

[drunkpunk]

I'll most likely buy the game since for last two versions I've played via Steam (after buying a boxed edition). For anyone who is lost through the decision to make steam only I find that being sad. I think we had it best over the last couple of editions with being able to choose to have the disc in or install via Steam.

I don't think the decision will impact on piracy much at all. I doubt their will be a sizable drop or increase in piracy. This is because people who want a game for free won't pay and will pirate, whist people who want the genuine item will pay for it or simply not buy it (sure a few extra people may well turn to piracy). I can understand the hope from SEGA/SI that this will initally prevent piracy and hopefully those extra couple of days before it is pirated will have enough sales to outweigh the loss of existing customers. I just personally don't think it will. I can't imagine a person who was planning on getting a pirate copy suddenly thinking "oh those 2 days are going to kill me, I cannot wait so I will just buy the geniune version," just don't see that happening.

Again I feel sad that one single FM player will be lost because of switching to steam only. I personally don't mind steam that much. But if we had option of no DRM, no steam, etc and just install and play without needing a disc in I imagine virtually all FM players would choose this option and it does suck that we can't have that.

I know steam can be a pain at times. Especially when you've forgot that you left it in online mode, come back to your computer when your internet is down and you're stuck with a game you cannot play... that is very annoying. I've taken to setting steam to start in offline mode incase my internet is ever down. I do hope SI/SEGA stick a great big fat notice of instructing people how to start steam in offline mode.

[nessi]

Forget about this. you dont pay for steam or anything, and if your using it purely for FM, you wouldnt ever even come across this. This is referring to other subscriptions you may have made through steam, so you neednt worry about this...

For that matter, no one neednt worry about steam at all. All this fuss over nothing to be honest.

I can forget about this, and also forget about section 12 which basically allows Valve to change the terms of contract anytime (but hey they will inform you). It's free, it's good, it's steam!

sorry SI, I've bought every CM/FM since the times of To Madeira but after your "message" I regret to inform you that I will not buy FM12. Hopefully we'll be together again for FM13...