These forums

[Ter]

I'm surprised at the attitude of the SI staff TBH, basically saying that its getting a bit too hostile so we basically wont come here anymore. I think thats a poor way to react to an increase in what we all see every day on the internet. Especially as this is exactly why SI's games have been so popular - because of the interaction with the community.

I would have expected SI to understand this increase in poor forum conduct. Whilst I agree it's a nightmare and it does grind you down searching through the pointless posts and sorting the chaff from the real gems of posts.

I think the only way to combat it is to just enforce the rules you have already, again as already suggested this is simply to increase the number of moderators.

It is a bit demoralising coming on here sometimes when, for example, we've been working our arses off all week then come on here for a bit of relaxation or whatever and see people abusing each other and/or some harsh deconstructive criticism of the game.

If we can make it a more pleasant place on here then maybe some more of the SI staff will be more active again.

[Rashidi]

I've been about this for a bit, and I have to think that Custom titles are beginning to make more sense. I agree wholeheartedly that the current karma system that tallies up our posts and gives us a title makes no sense to me. It certainly rewards people for making posts, it also rewards those for making nonsensical posts.

There is a tendency for people to imitate others, its a natural sociological event. It really makes more sense to me that there should be more moderators and that there should be a way to identify and reward the more constructive posters.

Posts by Dave C, Amaroq and a whole host of other OPs continually get swept away under the tide of new members eager to get their post count up. If we were to do away with this and instead introduce custom titles for individuals that continue to set a good example it would also act as encouragement for others to follow suit.

These need not be serious titles, even humorous ones will serve a good purpose, furthermore custom titles unique to forums will allow new users to understand where certain suggestions come from. An individual who continually posts great stories and comes in here to talk about these would have a custom title "Order of the Scribe".

These custom titles should only be individuals who have posted sensibly in the past month, a list could be short-listed everymonth posted in GQ, and the mods can go and do a secret ballot.

I do not suggest an open ballot for obvious reasons of administration. Going forward, this may be something worth considering.

[medievalist]

Ok, I mean this as constructive criticism and I hope it will be taken as such.

Just now we had a bunch of threads locked in GQ (the Crouch one, 'just tell us how to win', etc.) and I'm not saying that those threads should not have been locked, but it would also have been good if whichever mod did it left a brief explanation as to why.

Enforcement of standards is good, but making those standards crystal clear is just as important. Was it the thread itself - a dupe, in the wrong place, or stupid? Was it the replies? Over time (hopefully) the community will learn these standards and there will be less threads that need locking.

[Ter]

rashidi - We had custom titles in the past and had nothing but bother from people being jealous that others had them, posts about how to get them and they ended up being more hassle than they are worth. I wouldn't be keen on reintroducing them. In fact, I would get rid of the karma titles altogether.

[Rashidi]

I agree whenever a thread is closed there should be a response even if the reasons were obvious. They are many reasons a mod may close a thread. I wouldn't know the particulars of those threads however.

[Rashidi]

I think karma titles should go as well.

[medievalist]

Yeah, I don't particularly care about those specific threads, it was just a convenient example.

[FrazT]

Originally posted by rashidi1:

I agree whenever a thread is closed there should be a response even if the reasons were obvious. They are many reasons a mod may close a thread. I wouldn't know the particulars of those threads however.

This is a point that has been raised a number of times and is surely something small that could be done to educate poster who break the rules.

[Rashidi]

Yeah but sometimes despite giving the same reason to the same OP repeatedly, it goes go, which is why we sometimes just go and close the thread.

Usually in most cases the mods do give reasons for closing a thread, there are times though we do feel like we rushing from room to room reading a litany of threads, moderating and still trying to get on with our normal lifes, not to mention get some game time in as well -)

[Beret83]

Hi Everyone!

I'n new to the forum but been an avid fan of FM for years. Have to say this is a great forum where else can you chat with makers of the game themselves!

Looking forward to Sunday.....thanks to SI for the wonder of FM!

[Box]

Originally posted by Ter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm surprised at the attitude of the SI staff TBH, basically saying that its getting a bit too hostile so we basically wont come here anymore. I think thats a poor way to react to an increase in what we all see every day on the internet. Especially as this is exactly why SI's games have been so popular - because of the interaction with the community.

I would have expected SI to understand this increase in poor forum conduct. Whilst I agree it's a nightmare and it does grind you down searching through the pointless posts and sorting the chaff from the real gems of posts.

I think the only way to combat it is to just enforce the rules you have already, again as already suggested this is simply to increase the number of moderators.

It is a bit demoralising coming on here sometimes when, for example, we've been working our arses off all week then come on here for a bit of relaxation or whatever and see people abusing each other and/or some harsh deconstructive criticism of the game.

If we can make it a more pleasant place on here then maybe some more of the SI staff will be more active again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Without sounding disrespectful or judgmental, maybe you should try relaxing another way. After I go home from work and I want to unwid I tend to move away from things that are related to my job - which is IT related. I dont go home and start tinkering with PC's or building websites etc.

Perhaps thats part of the reason you all are getting weary - at high pressure times of work, which it undoubtedly is at the moment at SI, you lads are bound to feel a bit of the pressure - and then to come on here and face thousands of fans, many of whom are just wasting their time (and ours!) with nagging and bitching - its no wonder you arent as enthusiastic as you have been in the past.

It's understandable, and I understand only too well from running my smaller community and forums, sometimes after working your arse off all day then to be confronted by a hundred and one childish complaints and spiteful posts, it does take the pleasure of the forum and even the game its self away from you.

It's understandable and you have my empathay, and to be honest. This is something I have often wondered about the SI team, with all the best will in the world and the great enthusiast the team undoubtedly has, its incredible they even come on here at all! Thats why I believe whole heartedly that these forums should have an exclusive area for subscribed members only - it generally weeds out the fly buy nights who aren't serious about being a committed and friendly member of this community.

People who are willing to subscribe to these forums , or at least a dedicated section fo the forum, are clearly only interested in the good of the community and are far more likely to make this a more pleasant and friendly place. They are far less likely to risk their subscriptions by making ridiculous comments and spamming the forums with the normal crap we get.

In summary my recommendations are:-

- Introduce a subscribed section of the forum. Profits of which could possibly be used in someway to benefit the paying community, perhaps produce an online magazine, im not sure, thats open to debate.

- Do away with the forum members ranking system all together. perhaps replace it with a forum karma system that is like the one used by proboards , where karma points are awarded by fellow forum users based on the usefulness/relevance of members posts.

- Introduce more moderators.

[Matthew Le God]

Box,

not many will pay to use these forums, i certainly wouldn't

[Box]

Thats a fair point. But there again going by your recent posts and your warnings, perhaps the thats the whole point and perhaps that proves what I'm saying.

[Box]

Besides, I wasnt suggesting making the whole forum subscribed, just a small section. I personally wouldn't mind paying a small subscription fee if I thought it was going to be better moderated and wasnt going to be spammed to death by 13 year old kids who haven't used the search button, haven't read the rules of the forum and have no intention of committing to the community and are only here to find out the "ultimate tactic" and the "best players"

[Jimbokav1971]

Sorry Box but I don't think it does.

You need to get away from thinking of these forums like a community run by and for the benefit of the community like many other forums are.

This forum is used as an advertising tool by SI and is run in that way. That is why the Mods are instructed to only ban people as a last resort.

SI want people to come in here and discuss the game. It is worth it's theoretical weight in advertising and costs them very little.

And anyway, shave off that sill tache and change out of that ridiculous hawian shirt .

[birdy123]

The forums would be empty if you had to pay. People would just migrate to other forums.

[Box]

Fair point, but if thats the case how come this initial topic has actually come from SI? If this is really just one big marketing exercisers why would they even care about what we get up to on here?

I personally don't think it is, and I genuinely believe that this is a community and having frequented the forums since about 1999/2000 you can see how much impact the members of this community have actually had on the game over the years.

Also why would the SI guys come on here outside their work hours if they weren't genuinely fans of the game and sincere in their commitment to the game and it's fans?

PS I'll lose the tash and Hawaian shirt but im keeping the Ferrari and the chopper!

[Box]

Originally posted by birdy123:

The forums would be empty if you had to pay. People would just migrate to other forums.

Many would migrate,but who would be left? The die hards and genuine committed fans.

It would be a case of quality over quantity. Besides, you would still have a fair proportion of the forum free, just a select few boards for exclusive use.

[gavnoble]

SI did an April Fool a couple of years back when they joked about introducing fees - did not go down well!

I've heard in the past that SI pay thousands each month for the forum but believe it's an expense worth paying due to the amount of input they get back from the forums. Charging people to make this input would be a non-starter as no matter how committed you are I don't think many would actually pay to use these forums. I certainly wouldn't.

[Box]

Then perhaps SI should decide what they want;

a free for all forum whereby they have to put up with the inevitable arguments and idiots who are here for something to do , but whereby they get to advertise and pluck the odd tasty idea

or nice friendly community where people are genuinely interested in the advancement of the game and sharing their experiences of the game

As I see it, it's impossible to have both.

[gavnoble]

It is impossible to have both and you never will have an argument free community as people will inevitably clash, but it is not impossible to reverse the way the standards have declined on this forum, particularly over the last 12 months.

It has been more civil in the past and I truly believe it can be again.

[Box]

I blame it on the general standards of the internet community as a whole and the increase in internet users. This kind of thing is common place on every forum, I think it's going to be very , very difficulty to reverse to be honest without punishing the genuine users of the forum and making them feel like they are in the forum of stalag luft.

Is what you are saying gav is possibly the moderators anrt enforcing the rules as well as they could/should be? Because I happen to think they do a decent enough job as is ot be fair, in fact sometimes I think that perhaps sometimes some of them are even a little overzealous.

I think to have a free and useful service that SI seem to want, they have to either take measures to stop some of the younger and/or dafter people signing up. What happened to the days when you need a proper email address to register? Perhaps they should introduce a system of forum membership that comes with a paid for version of FM?

[bob]

how about a NEWS page maybe stickied or maybe a redirect upon entering the forums to help cut down on the usual 'whens the new patch out' an stuff, where you can see an official line on a certain subject or a certain date for a patch release or a simple 'there is NO set date for this/that!' and you could also include some tidbits an other stories and the like!!

as for the bullying/ill will, i think sterner punishments maybe(?) and clear and concise warnings about any future consequences for peoples actions if they continue! it should also be across the boards as i have seen long standing members get away with stuff that would not have been tolerated if it was by a newbie!

[dannyboy24]

I really think any sort of paid area is a bad idea, or indeed any structure which elevates certain members over others for anything other than quality of posts.

[Box]

Originally posted by bob:

how about a NEWS page maybe stickied or maybe a redirect upon entering the forums to help cut down on the usual 'whens the new patch out' an stuff, where you can see an official line on a certain subject or a certain date for a patch release or a simple 'there is NO set date for this/that!' and you could also include some tidbits an other stories and the like!!

as for the bullying/ill will, i think sterner punishments maybe(?) and clear and concise warnings about any future consequences for peoples actions if they continue! it should also be across the boards as i have seen long standing members get away with stuff that would not have been tolerated if it was by a newbie!

There used to be an announcements board, I'm not convinced people in this lazy time will be bothered to go search for the answers they need there, its far easier to make a post and get people to reply to you.

However I agree with your posts about uneven moderating, I too have seen examples of longer standing members being let off with comments/posts that a newr memebr would be slated for.

Perhaps temporary bans with clear information as to why they have been banned is the answer. 24 hour, 48 hour or eve week long bans may help change peoples attitudes, then perhaps if those aent working revert to a permanent ban.

Also think about using the old system of only allowing new members to register who have a paid for email account , its much easier to keep tabs on those members and restrict them from just creatinga new account to get banned.

[Kris]

Groupee (our forum software) has premium membership and the "april fools joke" about introducing subscription services a year ago could easily have become true.

I believe that there is an area for premium content for a subscription fee. It works well at arstechnica , a very big forum compared to ours.

Forums have "cycles", everything returns to a previous state every x months, where the state is either considered good or bad by the community or by the forum owners. The two are not necessarily in agreement.

The forums cost used to be in the ,000's per month but a switch to a shared hosted (as opposed to opentopic dedicated server) server ubb.x system has reduced this cost.

As for introducing reasons for thread closures, the obivous closures dont need a reason as you are instructed to read the house rules in the welcome / sign up email.

[bob]

Originally posted by Box:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bob:

how about a NEWS page maybe stickied or maybe a redirect upon entering the forums to help cut down on the usual 'whens the new patch out' an stuff, where you can see an official line on a certain subject or a certain date for a patch release or a simple 'there is NO set date for this/that!' and you could also include some tidbits an other stories and the like!!

as for the bullying/ill will, i think sterner punishments maybe(?) and clear and concise warnings about any future consequences for peoples actions if they continue! it should also be across the boards as i have seen long standing members get away with stuff that would not have been tolerated if it was by a newbie!

There used to be an announcements board, I'm not convinced people in this lazy time will be bothered to go search for the answers they need there, its far easier to make a post and get people to reply to you.

However I agree with your posts about uneven moderating, I too have seen examples of longer standing members being let off with comments/posts that a newr memebr would be slated for.

Perhaps temporary bans with clear information as to why they have been banned is the answer. 24 hour, 48 hour or eve week long bans may help change peoples attitudes, then perhaps if those aent working revert to a permanent ban.

Also think about using the old system of only allowing new members to register who have a paid for email account , its much easier to keep tabs on those members and restrict them from just creatinga new account to get banned. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats why i think a redirect would be better as it could include links to popular threads at that moment. news on upcoming stuff or news in general!

if it was worth the read, people would stop and read it!

i dont think a paid for email account is the way to go though!

[Kris]

Box, we are not going to introduce even more banning options which would add a complete minefield of complaints and even more admnistrative time required.

Over the years I have regulary spent over 6 hours a day on top of my usual work time "on forum".I'd say about 70-80% of this was admin/software development. Kinda leaves very little time to enjoy the fourms

[Alurny]

Originally posted by dannyboy24:

I really think any sort of paid area is a bad idea, or indeed any structure which elevates certain members over others for anything other than quality of posts.

Agree.

Paying your way to titles isn't really the best thing!

We need:

- A larger base of users with moderating abilities

- A better attitude towards new users: only post if your post is going to be useful

- Shorter bans so users can "learn" from their mistakes

- Bans enforced more clearly

Despite all this I enjoy the board immensely.

[Amaroq]

Community - I don't agree with the person who said that they don't feel a sense of community. I do feel one, and in class posters like Dave C, wwfan, dafuge, playmaker, rashidi1, Peacemaker7, Terk, Jimbokav, Ackter, and many other of you, I feel connected to a bunch of intelligent, well-spoken, like-minded people. I've exchanged e-mails with a number of folks, and I enjoy that!

Getting replies from Ter, Marc Vaughan, Miles, and others, that's exciting! I think its a beautiful thing how responsive SI are to the community. I wish my company matched your example, gentlemen - and your presence on these forums engenders a loyalty-of-customer feeling that I don't have for most other companies.

Sure, the new user doesn't feel that. But its up to the rest of us to provide the environment that nurtures those relationships, and helps the new user grow into that productive style of behavior.

Karma - I'm with rashidi1 on this one. I think the system of "title from volume" is pretty ludicrous; it encourages the behavior we want to discourage. If "+1" in a thread you can tell is about to get closed is worth just as much as one of Dave C's epic articles.. **shaking my head**

On the other hand, acknowledgement-from-the-community, whether its in the form of an *actual* Karma system, user-voted awards, a custom-title system, or otherwise, can be used to encourage the behaviors we want.

There's plenty of simple 'karma' systems out there, preventing the grief that one guy who takes a dislike to somebody can do whilst rewarding the sort of community we want to see.

I'd love to see the GQ awards reinstated; it was a lot of fun.

Bullying - I think this has been well discussed. Low tolerance policing by the mods is one thing we can do.

As a community, however, there's two other things we can do.

One is to use the search ourselves to find the guy his topic. If the first answer posted is "There's already a topic on it - Link", that's an infinitely better experience for the new user than "ffs do a search!"

Two is, let it go! If the first answer posted was a link, and then there are no other replies.. the topic drops off the first page quick enough. No biggie - and certainly no need for piling on.

And finally, there are some "rules" which a new user should be informed of if they're breaking them, e.g. "no sms speak", but there's no reason that can't be done politely by one established member of the community: "Answer-to-your-question, and by the way, we have plenty of non-native English speakers on the forum who don't understand sms-speak, please use proper English"

And the guy who piles on with "No sms speak!" two replies further down might merit a warning for it - for ignoring the first reply.

Signal to Noise - I suspect GQ is withering because the signal-to-noise ratio has been constantly dropping since I first joined. Its what chased off Dave C, and I've gotten to the point where I'm perusing every tenth topic at most, and like playmaker, it doesn't feel worth posting my ideas for discussion; there's nothing more frustrating than a ten-paragraph post followed by four one-line replies, the whistle of the wind, and a passing tumbleweed.

I suspect one of the reasons bullying starts is because users get frustrated with the signal-to-noise ratio. Rather than seeing the excited 13-year-old making his first post on a forum, they see "one more jerk asking when the Demo's gonna be out - for the tenth time today!"

Proper forum etiquette, of course, was to lurk for a couple days and get a feel for what the frequent topics are, read the first page or two to see if you can find your question, maybe do a search.

Maybe we could do something like "new accounts can read but can't post for 48 hours?", "new accounts can read but can't post until they've read the forum rules for the current forum", or "new accounts can ready but can't post until they've read ten (twenty?) threads".

The idea isn't to be exclusionary, just to drill home the "You've got to read!" perspective. Obviously, you've got to set the bar, whatever it is, low enough that your excited-13-year-old comes through it still-excitemed, but hopefully a little wiser.

Bans - My company uses 24- and 72-hour bans (on a site with 20M subscribers). It works very well, just enough of a "bip on the nose" to get the attention, while not enough to turn the person off of the site permanently.

Obviously, a trouble-child is going to pick up a 24-, then a 72-, and possibly a lifetime ban thereafter..

The "short bans" would be very effective when coupled with the "new users can't post for 48 hours" idea, as it prevents you from just making a new hotmail account and piling back into your discussion with an alias.

[Liam Harper]

Hope this gets sorted . i'm rarely on here meself nowadays. WoW taking up most me time and FM has lost it's magic with me. Still downloading the new demo when it's released

Would always be nice to have the old feeling of the CM (at the time) forums back

[Gazzaroon]

Originally posted by Amaroq:

Community - I don't agree with the person who said that they don't feel a sense of community. I do feel one, and in class posters like Dave C, wwfan, dafuge, playmaker, rashidi1, Peacemaker7, Terk, Jimbokav, Ackter, and many other of you, I feel connected to a bunch of intelligent, well-spoken, like-minded people. I've exchanged e-mails with a number of folks, and I enjoy that!

Getting replies from Ter, Marc Vaughan, Miles, and others, that's exciting! I think its a beautiful thing how responsive SI are to the community. I wish my company matched your example, gentlemen - and your presence on these forums engenders a loyalty-of-customer feeling that I don't have for most other companies.

Sure, the new user doesn't feel that. But its up to the rest of us to provide the environment that nurtures those relationships, and helps the new user grow into that productive style of behavior.

Karma - I'm with rashidi1 on this one. I think the system of "title from volume" is pretty ludicrous; it encourages the behavior we want to discourage. If "+1" in a thread you can tell is about to get closed is worth just as much as one of Dave C's epic articles.. **shaking my head**

On the other hand, acknowledgement-from-the-community, whether its in the form of an *actual* Karma system, user-voted awards, a custom-title system, or otherwise, can be used to encourage the behaviors we want.

There's plenty of simple 'karma' systems out there, preventing the grief that one guy who takes a dislike to somebody can do whilst rewarding the sort of community we want to see.

I'd love to see the GQ awards reinstated; it was a lot of fun.

Bullying - I think this has been well discussed. Low tolerance policing by the mods is one thing we can do.

As a community, however, there's two other things we can do.

One is to use the search ourselves to find the guy his topic. If the first answer posted is "There's already a topic on it - Link", that's an infinitely better experience for the new user than "ffs do a search!"

Two is, let it go! If the first answer posted was a link, and then there are no other replies.. the topic drops off the first page quick enough. No biggie - and certainly no need for piling on.

And finally, there are some "rules" which a new user should be informed of if they're breaking them, e.g. "no sms speak", but there's no reason that can't be done politely by one established member of the community: "Answer-to-your-question, and by the way, we have plenty of non-native English speakers on the forum who don't understand sms-speak, please use proper English"

And the guy who piles on with "No sms speak!" two replies further down might merit a warning for it - for ignoring the first reply.

Signal to Noise - I suspect GQ is withering because the signal-to-noise ratio has been constantly dropping since I first joined. Its what chased off Dave C, and I've gotten to the point where I'm perusing every tenth topic at most, and like playmaker, it doesn't feel worth posting my ideas for discussion; there's nothing more frustrating than a ten-paragraph post followed by four one-line replies, the whistle of the wind, and a passing tumbleweed.

I suspect one of the reasons bullying starts is because users get frustrated with the signal-to-noise ratio. Rather than seeing the excited 13-year-old making his first post on a forum, they see "one more jerk asking when the Demo's gonna be out - for the tenth time today!"

Proper forum etiquette, of course, was to lurk for a couple days and get a feel for what the frequent topics are, read the first page or two to see if you can find your question, maybe do a search.

Maybe we could do something like "new accounts can read but can't post for 48 hours?", "new accounts can read but can't post until they've read the forum rules for the current forum", or "new accounts can ready but can't post until they've read ten (twenty?) threads".

The idea isn't to be exclusionary, just to drill home the "You've got to read!" perspective. Obviously, you've got to set the bar, whatever it is, low enough that your excited-13-year-old comes through it still-excitemed, but hopefully a little wiser.

Bans - My company uses 24- and 72-hour bans (on a site with 20M subscribers). It works very well, just enough of a "bip on the nose" to get the attention, while not enough to turn the person off of the site permanently.

Obviously, a trouble-child is going to pick up a 24-, then a 72-, and possibly a lifetime ban thereafter..

The "short bans" would be very effective when coupled with the "new users can't post for 48 hours" idea, as it prevents you from just making a new hotmail account and piling back into your discussion with an alias.

Well reasoned and logical comments made by amaroq and maybe something SI should look into.

One of the points I have read was about the forums being an 'Advertising Tool' for SI. I am sure it is but a non-regulated Forum would simply begin to create negative publicity as more and more people become unhappy or feel bullied and move away and word begins to spread.Thus creating negative advertising and eventually have an adverse effect.

Being polite isn't expensive or time consuming it is simply a way of life.

I think the Karma system has to be changed to a system that more reflects the effectiveness of the person posting or to be done away with altogether. What does it matter how many posts you have made?

I would love the place to get back to a couple of years ago or so when things were definately nicer and there were some really good threads and discussions.

However, it is also up to the community to try and police itself and make clear to those people who do bully, post destructive posts etc that it isn't acceptable nor is it clever.

[Finknottle]

The attitude and demeanour of some of the posters is why I do not offer many posts. One other is, I do not see the point of talking if you haven't anything to say.

There are people getting into the game all the time. Some, like myself are not pc literate and require more assistance than others. I have sometimes found replies rather less than helpful. Good luck in your efforts Miles.It is long overdue. Kind regards.

[Glyn]

One thing I'd like to see (even though I know it wouldn't happen) is for there to be a unique code inside the FM box that gives the purchaser access to parts of the messageboard.

Keeps the pirates out, and makes sure that reported bugs are proper ones and not resulting from cracked games.

[Spanky]

Re The Karma Points/Titles discussion on the Previous Page:

I agree that custom titles could be a nightmare as casual posters feel unappreciated and jealousy arises.

I'd like to write a reasonably long post on three words (and two asterisks) in Amaroq's excellent post above: "*actual* Karma system".

I think a system of voted Karma could work a lot better. Each logged in user would be able to vote for or against each post once and the poster accumulates both positive and negative karma which is disclosed as a "helpfulness percentage" of positive votes/total number of votes.

So as an example, suppose a thread is started where a member asks when the demo is out. The first reply is "ffs use a search" by Negative Nic. The second reply is "Sunday - see the official thread *link*" by Positive Pete. Thread is then locked. People come along and see this thread and disagree with the negative post. Negative Nic gets 19 negative karma votes and one positive vote (from his mother). Pete's post is seen to be helpful and so Positive Pete gets 20 positive votes.

Underneath our two members locations, is now a helpfulness percentage ie for Nic it's 5% (1/20) and for Pete it's 100% (20/20). These percentages will change the more Pete and Nic post. In addition, maybe Nic and Pete's posts on that particular thread could change colour due to the posts' overwhelming alignment (eg Nic's red and Pete's blue). Each post could be remarked as having x positive votes and y negative votes.

It would not apply to OTF else it'd be ineffective.

This method would have the following advantages:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> It would reward excellent posters such as Dave C or Amaroq with a feeling of recognition

<LI> It would equally reward posters (and I consider myself in this bracket) who lack the inspiration to come up with a brilliant new idea, or the eloquence/writing skills to communicate an idea effectively, but try to be as helpful as possible

<LI> Due to the large number of members as mentioned by Kris, individuals who try and ruin the spitit of the system eg by voting positively for "ffs" replies because they agree would largely be crowded out by the good meaning members (and the fact that this is on page 9 is surely a testament to the fact that they're out there)

<LI> Members could skip past the unhelpful posts quickly on a thread as they are coloured red

<LI> When SI look to start an exclusive thread for only the well meaning posters, they could use this percentage as a cut-off point (in addition to some measure of posts made). Not only would it serve to encourage good posting but it would be convenient for SI to search that way

<LI> The voting buttons could be labelled "+1" and <insert wall banging smiley here> in keeping with the communal feeling of the forum!

Anyway, there's my two cents - it's a great debate lads - well done everyone!

[Neji]

I like the idea Amaroq posted about 48 hour period of not being able to post, I'm sure that would stop a whole load of useless threads and people would be jumping on others less as a result.

And Glyn, I like your idea but what about people who want to post on the board but don't have the game? It would be helpful for the bug forum, as you rightly said but GQ wouldn't benefit from it.

Lastly, I'd like to see a 'Kudos' system. Instead of the post count, I think it should be replaced by a system ranking posters. So if I posted a question on help with tactics and one of the more knowledgeable posters helped me, I could then thank them. This way the good posters would acknowledged. Instead of people posting one line useless replies to get the post count up, they would be forced to post something useful if they want a good rank.

[dafuge]

The "*actual* Karma system" sounds like a really good idea. So often I have read an excellent response from Amaroq, but been unable to contribute anything afterwards that hasn't already been covered.

I feel a bit awkward just posting something like 'brillant post ' because if everyone does that then the discussion would become lost amongst all the short replies. People like Amaroq and some of the others mentioned earlier really need something that makes them stand out from the others as these are the people that make the biggest contributions to the forums.

An option for negative feedback would also discourage people from making the unhelpful 'ffs do a search' type comments.

[thefootman]

To be honest I'd never really understood how the Karma system worked at all until I noticed that someone who had

registered more recently than I had already moved up a level.From what I've been reading here it seems that it must

have been as a result of the sheer volume of posts he/she had been making.

I agree it doesn't seem right that some of the excellent,informative and simply inspired posts that appear on these forums

from many brilliant members (some of whom have already been mentioned) should be rewarded with the same rating (is it 1 point

per post?) as those less deserving.

I'm sure SI will take great heart from the fact that this thread proves that a lot of us (even the less articulate and

insightful among us,and I include myself in that) do care.

So far there have been lots of ideas sensibly discussed and it has been an illuminating read.

Regards to everyone who has conributed.

[Ackter]

Any actual karma system would need to be forum-specific.

Extending it to the likes of OTF would be pointless for example, while being a good poster in GQ is not much help in the LLM forum.

[Ackter]

I agree it doesn't seem right that some of the excellent,informative and simply inspired posts that appear on these forums

from many brilliant members (some of whom have already been mentioned) should be rewarded with the same rating (is it 1 point

per post?) as those less deserving.

I doubt you'd find that any of those posters would care either way.

Karma in its current form is good for new users as it helps them feel involved, but there should be a cut-off point - say after a certain amount of time or posts your karma rating is no longer visible.

[Tim Madisun]

My 2p.

I've seen the system of not being able to post actual threads for a certain amount of time as a newbie on a different site work well.

I post regularly at Metafilter and some of their practices would be applicable here. There are limits for new members in posting a new thread - you have to wait a week after registering and post 5 comments before you can physically post a thread.

Once you've served your probation, so to speak, you can then only post a new thread once a week. Comments, as much as you like. This encourages people to really consider what thread they want to post, plus breaks a new user into the community at a slower pace. Mods are friendly and do much the same type of job as ours, with a large volume of posts and a certain amount of editing.

Users of the site can also bring up questions/improvements/grievances in a separate "forum". I note we don't really have a place for this. In fact, the only way we can contact mods is via an email address. I'd like to see a place where we can discuss issues/new features/questions much like we have in this thread.

I'm not a fan so much of karma points as personally I'd be concerned that too much emphasis would be placed on both garnering favour with the regulars, encouraging groupthink rather than diversity. I'm all for thanking good people for good posts, I'm just not convinced that a rating system is the best way.

So to summarise:

- Delay first post for a week and a few comments

- New forum for questions/issues/improvements

- No karma points, just current post count system

[saved_by_barry_horne]

Amoraq - snsible and eloquent posting as ever. in full agreement with all those suggestions.

Moving to dafuge's point:

I feel a bit awkward just posting something like 'brillant post ' because if everyone does that then the discussion would become lost amongst all the short replies. People like Amaroq and some of the others mentioned earlier really need something that makes them stand out from the others as these are the people that make the biggest contributions to the forums.

Totally understand how you feel when someone else has made an excellent point and there is nothing left to add.

My only worry about actual karma would be if people start giving -ve karma for responses such as 'excellent idea' or 'whs', (basically validating someone elses point/suggestion) because they've not actually contributed further to a thread.

[Amaroq]

Originally posted by Ackter:

Karma in its current form is good for new users as it helps them feel involved, but there should be a cut-off point - say after a certain amount of time or posts your karma rating is no longer visible.

Unless you spend a lot of time posting, or post a lot of one-liners, it doesn't grow very rapidly at all. It felt like it took me forever to reach "Part-timer".

Your "Different karma systems for different forums" idea actually makes very good sense; as you say, a GQ legend may be an utter noob in LLM or FMS. "+1" might be an appropriate karma system in OTF, and in fact the OTF'ers are probably the ones most invested in the current system; letting them keep it might make it easier to "sell" a "*actual* Karma system" for GQ.

PS - dafuge, the feeling is mutual!

[Amaroq]

Originally posted by Tim Madisun:

There are limits for new members in posting a new thread - you have to wait a week after registering and post 5 comments before you can physically post a thread.

Once you've served your probation, so to speak, you can then only post a new thread once a week. Comments, as much as you like. This encourages people to really consider what thread they want to post.

What was dafuge's line? Oh yeah. "Brilliant! "

Seriously, I like that idea a lot. Would seriously help the "Sign up, post three threads asking FAQ's in my first ten minutes" problem.

I'd imagine the "one thread a week" probation relaxes over time?

[Ackter]

See this is what threads used to be like a few years ago.

Pages of discussion and idea developmet.

Pros and Cons etc

It's quite disapointing that this is one of the only threads of this ilk for such a long time.

[Jimbokav1971]

Originally posted by Ackter:

See this is what threads used to be like a few years ago.

Pages of discussion and idea developmet.

Pros and Cons etc

It's quite disapointing that this is one of the only threads of this ilk for such a long time.

Yeah but Ackter, very similar ideas were suggested in a similar thread that I linked to back on page 2-3 just over a year ago and absolutely nothing was done about it.

If they don't put something into action then will we be here again next year?

[Ackter]

I think the fact that nothing has got better is the reason why SI are discussing this so publicly now.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Amaroq:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tim Madisun:

There are limits for new members in posting a new thread - you have to wait a week after registering and post 5 comments before you can physically post a thread.

Once you've served your probation, so to speak, you can then only post a new thread once a week. Comments, as much as you like. This encourages people to really consider what thread they want to post.

What was dafuge's line? Oh yeah. "Brilliant! "

Seriously, I like that idea a lot. Would seriously help the "Sign up, post three threads asking FAQ's in my first ten minutes" problem.

I'd imagine the "one thread a week" probation relaxes over time? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This in conjunction with a well written FAQ could be very effective.

Members sign up looking to ask basic questions and since they can't post, they might look around and find their answer. Bold the FAQ sticky, increase the font size and mention the FAQ in bold in the activation/welcome to the forums email.

I think Ter said earlier that a FAQ was tried and still there was no joy, but if new members can't post then they might be more inclined to root around and find out the answers themselves.

[Spanky]

Yeah but Ackter, very similar ideas were suggested in a similar thread that I linked to back on page 2-3 just over a year ago and absolutely nothing was done about it.

If they don't put something into action then will we be here again next year?

Well let's give this one a chance. This thread came from Miles so it's obviously something SI/SEGA want to fix. With the release of FM08 causing an influx of new members, presumably this is something at the forefront that they want to fix.

I'm sure we'll hear from Miles in good time, even if it's to say they've taken suggestions on board and are thinking about it.

[Jimbokav1971]

The only other website that I post on is the Barnet FC fans messageboard.

It's pretty basic but counts posts like most messageboards do.

The one feature that it has, that has been touched on before, that might work here, is the ability for every poster to rate every post that they read, thus giving every single post an average rated score of 1-5. It also calculates the average rating for each post posted by an individual and that rating shows up under their name.

By looking under the name you can see instantly what grading of 1-5 other posters have in general given this persons posts.

I must admit that I think it would be of benefit here and I think it is something that should be investigated.

The other idea that has been mentioned that I particularly like is the ability for Mods/SI staff/selected senior posters to be able to give "titles" to posters as if they were a badge of honour.

Examples off the top of mu head might be.

dafuge. "Founder of the dafige challenge thread" and then possibly a link to the thread.

PM7. "something to do with FMS" and then manybe a link to the Hall of Fame or that legendary thread of his.

Kipfizh. "The AI Experiment king" and a link to his thread.

Nobby. "If he's not in Llama Land he is lost"

WWfan. "something to do with tactics"

Amaroq. "If you ask me a question, make sure you take the time to read my detailed answer"

You get the idea anyway.

They don't have to be serious either. They can be funny or whatever.

Titles are good, it can be a pain to administer them and there are going to be tonnes of posts and even more emails by people asking to be given one...one simple solution..any posts or email that ask how you can get em put you automatically on a 6 mth freeze for consideration.

Let the mods make the recommendations, simple solution and let it be forum specific. I know its been shot down a couple of times before and I'm also known in the corporate world as stubborn negotiator